Mark Tetzner wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 10:50 pm
AshvinP wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 9:50 pm
Mark Tetzner wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 5:40 pm
Ok. So what did JW mean when he said we are entangled with the measurement apparatus. Or alternatively what was his best argument, if any?
JW holds to a consistent monism, just like BK. But the reason both are "consistent" is because they create a black hole to suck in everything that makes their positions inconsistent and conveniently say, "sorry guys there is a black hole of knowledge here, so we can't go any further, and anyone who thinks they can further must be ignored".
thanks. can you give an example where BK is blackholish?
Yes. Our entire inner experience of willing-feeling-thinking is a black hole for BK. Ironically, this ends up resulting in a mentality worse than standard physicalism. BK rightly perceives that physicalism strips out qualities of experience in its scientific approach and forgets that these have been stripped out from the material abstractions. BK knows these qualities are very important aspects of the natural phenomena, but since he enveloped our inner experience in black-holeness, this pings back and envelops all outer natural phenomena as well. So now BK cannot say anything about outer natural phenomena either, except they result from dynamics of "instinctive mind". He writes a book about Jung, but if asked how these 'archetypes of the collective unconscious' actually fit into natural science, his answer is the exact same as the materialist - they must have resulted from bottom-up evolution somehow and are limited to only instinctual patterned behavior.
Instead of mindless physical things evolving from the bottom-up, its mindless 'mental' things. And if I were to ask him, "what about all the documented and experiential evidence for the evolution of cognition itself over the last several thousand years?", he would reply, "well those are interesting theories, but they can only remain pure speculation, regardless of the evidence, because that sort of thing is beyond any objective scientific inquiry". That's exactly what JW responded to me as well. So conveniently they have black-holed all the evidence which tends to reveal the inherent flaws in their own philosophical-spiritual worldview. That's also what JW must have been thinking when reading Cleric's post about concretely experiencing logically reasoned thoughts as higher order musical activity - "but I already black-holed any such concrete experience for
everyone, so he must be fantasizing and speculating and it's not worth my time to even consider".
I couldn't even begin to imagine. But it's hard to ignore the short crisp sentences and the detailed information they request. And then to not notice it. So, no, I can't guess at the inner side of it, but I can enjoy the fields of cherries. Maybe obscure reference.
