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Re: Bernardo vs Graham Oppy!!

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 4:27 pm
by Soul_of_Shu
Mark Tetzner wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 4:15 pm I consider myself a Lichtgestalt ;)
Indeed, just like the Angels ;)

As for being a bit rushed, probably understandable if you actually have a day job to attend to, unlike some elders living the luxury of retirement from the workaday world ... just as long as you're not typing while driving and putting the corporeal 'costume' at risk of being torn to shreds, with the lichtgestalt left naked :o

Re: Bernardo vs Graham Oppy!!

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 4:34 pm
by Mark Tetzner
I am a Lichtgestalt, yet I get evaded. Translate that to Latin anyone?

Re: Bernardo vs Graham Oppy!!

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 4:45 pm
by Soul_of_Shu
Mark Tetzner wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 4:34 pm I am a Lichtgestalt, yet I get evaded.
Well, hopefully not in this forum of fellow lichtgestalts ... even if we tend to fire laser weapons back and forth :mrgreen:

Re: Bernardo vs Graham Oppy!!

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 5:40 pm
by Mark Tetzner
Ok. So what did JW mean when he said we are entangled with the measurement apparatus. Or alternatively what was his best argument, if any?

Re: Bernardo vs Graham Oppy!!

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 9:50 pm
by AshvinP
Mark Tetzner wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 5:40 pm Ok. So what did JW mean when he said we are entangled with the measurement apparatus. Or alternatively what was his best argument, if any?

JW holds to a consistent monism, just like BK. But the reason both are "consistent" is because they create a black hole to suck in everything that makes their positions inconsistent and conveniently say, "sorry guys there is a black hole of knowledge here, so we can't go any further, and anyone who thinks they can further must be ignored". I am not even exaggerating. Everything natural phenomena is simply explained by rearranging intellectual concepts about what has already been discovered. And spirit-soul phenomena, i.e. our inner life, or the inner life of the Cosmos, is not explained at all.

I mean explanation in a rigorous scientific sense. Some apparently think a few concepts strung together which do not flatly contradict the phenomena, because they are so abstracted out they encompass all phenomena by their very definition, is an "explanation". That is not how I mean it and such explanations are never satisfying for the human will-to-meaning.

Re: Bernardo vs Graham Oppy!!

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 10:50 pm
by Mark Tetzner
AshvinP wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 9:50 pm
Mark Tetzner wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 5:40 pm Ok. So what did JW mean when he said we are entangled with the measurement apparatus. Or alternatively what was his best argument, if any?

JW holds to a consistent monism, just like BK. But the reason both are "consistent" is because they create a black hole to suck in everything that makes their positions inconsistent and conveniently say, "sorry guys there is a black hole of knowledge here, so we can't go any further, and anyone who thinks they can further must be ignored".
thanks. can you give an example where BK is blackholish?

Re: Bernardo vs Graham Oppy!!

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 11:38 pm
by findingblanks
No, Soul! Not at all. I love when you get 'stern'! Well, more specifically I love noticing the pattern. Unfortunately I'm not willing to guess about any psychodyamics that might underlie it :( I couldn't even begin to imagine. But it's hard to ignore the short crisp sentences and the detailed information they request. And then to not notice it. So, no, I can't guess at the inner side of it, but I can enjoy the fields of cherries. Maybe obscure reference.

Re: Bernardo vs Graham Oppy!!

Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:32 am
by AshvinP
Mark Tetzner wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 10:50 pm
AshvinP wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 9:50 pm
Mark Tetzner wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 5:40 pm Ok. So what did JW mean when he said we are entangled with the measurement apparatus. Or alternatively what was his best argument, if any?

JW holds to a consistent monism, just like BK. But the reason both are "consistent" is because they create a black hole to suck in everything that makes their positions inconsistent and conveniently say, "sorry guys there is a black hole of knowledge here, so we can't go any further, and anyone who thinks they can further must be ignored".
thanks. can you give an example where BK is blackholish?

Yes. Our entire inner experience of willing-feeling-thinking is a black hole for BK. Ironically, this ends up resulting in a mentality worse than standard physicalism. BK rightly perceives that physicalism strips out qualities of experience in its scientific approach and forgets that these have been stripped out from the material abstractions. BK knows these qualities are very important aspects of the natural phenomena, but since he enveloped our inner experience in black-holeness, this pings back and envelops all outer natural phenomena as well. So now BK cannot say anything about outer natural phenomena either, except they result from dynamics of "instinctive mind". He writes a book about Jung, but if asked how these 'archetypes of the collective unconscious' actually fit into natural science, his answer is the exact same as the materialist - they must have resulted from bottom-up evolution somehow and are limited to only instinctual patterned behavior.

Instead of mindless physical things evolving from the bottom-up, its mindless 'mental' things. And if I were to ask him, "what about all the documented and experiential evidence for the evolution of cognition itself over the last several thousand years?", he would reply, "well those are interesting theories, but they can only remain pure speculation, regardless of the evidence, because that sort of thing is beyond any objective scientific inquiry". That's exactly what JW responded to me as well. So conveniently they have black-holed all the evidence which tends to reveal the inherent flaws in their own philosophical-spiritual worldview. That's also what JW must have been thinking when reading Cleric's post about concretely experiencing logically reasoned thoughts as higher order musical activity - "but I already black-holed any such concrete experience for everyone, so he must be fantasizing and speculating and it's not worth my time to even consider".

Re: Bernardo vs Graham Oppy!!

Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:40 am
by Soul_of_Shu
findingblanks wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 11:38 pm No, Soul! Not at all. I love when you get 'stern'!
OK, go to your room without dinner and practice Thinking :idea:

Re: Bernardo vs Graham Oppy!!

Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:38 am
by Mark Tetzner
Thanks Ashvin, it does not make complete sense to me but thanks for taking the time to respond.