(Short) Freeing the Force of Gratitude

[Lou Gold]

Ashvin,

Where I suspect you err is in not accepting that I know the inward path as the fundamental challenge and refuse to acknowledge that I and others have been working on it in depth (some even significantly longer than you). I know that you see yourself and our recently evolved species as incomplete and you project that on anything I share. My politics have in the past been left-leaning. At present I see no political solution to our turmoil and I view the Communism, Fascism and Liberalism of the 20th Century as failed ideologies. On the other hand, there are many who in my view who practice "Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love" and see/think/feel/act within the limits of their circumstances simply doing their best. Compassionately, I also understand that gratitude can be quite a challenge (as when one's child is terribly ill). I seek to appreciate and support the good works without critiquing how a particular person worked their own process or the names they associate with it. A favorite representation of process in my view is portrayed in my icon and I would not be offended if you called it an example of Thinking.

Lou,

The problem is everyone wants to share an opinion here but never have it criticized. It's not about age. I see the very purpose of these exchanges, as all phenomena, to have our ideal understanding tested and refined "as iron sharpens iron", so the ideas may also evolve through us. This is not about what happens in any given day, week, month, year, or lifetime. It's not about who is agreeing with each other for the sake of friendly agreement. It's not even about any individual personality and their journey through life or what they know or don't know. I write these things as one of many tools to help myself shift my own perspective from the physical to the spiritual, from the finite to the infinite, fragmented to the integral. This is a terribly difficult task which requires vigilance and persistence. If I sense you are misunderstanding what I am saying, which is what I sensed in your quote of Goethe and response to Rilke quote, it helps me to point it out and flesh it out more. I try to stick only to substance and not any personal attacks or insults. But if you are offended by the very fact of me disagreeing, or challenging, or critiquing, or simply elaborating on my own thoughts, then I would suggest not commenting.

Hey Ashvin,

I'm not offended by criticism. I just don't have an appetite for endless argumentation. I do accept and appreciate your process as you describe it:

" I write these things as one of many tools to help myself shift my own perspective from the physical to the spiritual, from the finite to the infinite, fragmented to the integral. This is a terribly difficult task which requires vigilance and persistence. If I sense you are misunderstanding what I am saying, which is what I sensed in your quote of Goethe and response to Rilke quote, it helps me to point it out and flesh it out more. "

Let me try to untangle a misunderstanding. Here's more to flesh out, noting that I'm talking not about your understanding but about my own.

First, the Goethe quote: "The spectacle of Nature is always new, for she is always renewing the spectators. Life is her most exquisite invention; and death is her expert contrivance to get plenty of life." I see the truth this all the way from a basic ecology of how a an old growth forest works to an ultimate spirituality expressed in the so-called Prayer of Saint Francis ("It is by dying that we are born to eternal life.") Humorously, I say, "Tests all the way up and turtles all the way down." More fundamentally, I see a dynamic process in which so-called nature and so-called spirit are not separated but are always in some state of interdependence or co-arising. As above, so below.

Second, I added in the Wiki paragraph about tumultuous times and Rilke's life not to dismiss the aspiration of "kissing the dragon" or being grateful for the arrival of what we fear but to express compassion toward how difficult it can be. And for those who make some progress there will be the challenges of being amidst others who are more fearful. It is a big work.

About age, I can only say that, whereas it is often associated with wisdom, from within the end zone it seems more like having had more time to make mistakes. As I mentioned to Dana, life review is not fun but, yes, I'm surely grateful for it.

I sense an evolving difference in my own process. I used to be focused on, as you say: "from the physical to the spiritual, from the finite to the infinite, fragmented to the integral" but now this end zone school seems to be bringing a shift in my process. Now I seem to be more focused on being more compassionate and less judgemental toward myself and others. I'm not proclaiming that this is higher or better or superior, just that it does feel more generative and integrative for where I am now.

OK, perhaps this will untangle a few knots.

[AshvinP]

Ashvin,

Where I suspect you err is in not accepting that I know the inward path as the fundamental challenge and refuse to acknowledge that I and others have been working on it in depth (some even significantly longer than you). I know that you see yourself and our recently evolved species as incomplete and you project that on anything I share. My politics have in the past been left-leaning. At present I see no political solution to our turmoil and I view the Communism, Fascism and Liberalism of the 20th Century as failed ideologies. On the other hand, there are many who in my view who practice "Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love" and see/think/feel/act within the limits of their circumstances simply doing their best. Compassionately, I also understand that gratitude can be quite a challenge (as when one's child is terribly ill). I seek to appreciate and support the good works without critiquing how a particular person worked their own process or the names they associate with it. A favorite representation of process in my view is portrayed in my icon and I would not be offended if you called it an example of Thinking.

Lou,

The problem is everyone wants to share an opinion here but never have it criticized. It's not about age. I see the very purpose of these exchanges, as all phenomena, to have our ideal understanding tested and refined "as iron sharpens iron", so the ideas may also evolve through us. This is not about what happens in any given day, week, month, year, or lifetime. It's not about who is agreeing with each other for the sake of friendly agreement. It's not even about any individual personality and their journey through life or what they know or don't know. I write these things as one of many tools to help myself shift my own perspective from the physical to the spiritual, from the finite to the infinite, fragmented to the integral. This is a terribly difficult task which requires vigilance and persistence. If I sense you are misunderstanding what I am saying, which is what I sensed in your quote of Goethe and response to Rilke quote, it helps me to point it out and flesh it out more. I try to stick only to substance and not any personal attacks or insults. But if you are offended by the very fact of me disagreeing, or challenging, or critiquing, or simply elaborating on my own thoughts, then I would suggest not commenting.

Hey Ashvin,

I'm not offended by criticism. I just don't have an appetite for endless argumentation. I do accept and appreciate your process as you describe it:

" I write these things as one of many tools to help myself shift my own perspective from the physical to the spiritual, from the finite to the infinite, fragmented to the integral. This is a terribly difficult task which requires vigilance and persistence. If I sense you are misunderstanding what I am saying, which is what I sensed in your quote of Goethe and response to Rilke quote, it helps me to point it out and flesh it out more. "

Let me try to untangle a misunderstanding. Here's more to flesh out, noting that I'm talking not about your understanding but about my own.

First, the Goethe quote: "The spectacle of Nature is always new, for she is always renewing the spectators. Life is her most exquisite invention; and death is her expert contrivance to get plenty of life." I see the truth this all the way from a basic ecology of how a an old growth forest works to an ultimate spirituality expressed in the so-called Prayer of Saint Francis ("It is by dying that we are born to eternal life.") Humorously, I say, "Tests all the way up and turtles all the way down." More fundamentally, I see a dynamic process in which so-called nature and so-called spirit are not separated but are always in some state of interdependence or co-arising. As above, so below.

Second, I added in the Wiki paragraph about tumultuous times and Rilke's life not to dismiss the aspiration of "kissing the dragon" or being grateful for the arrival of what we fear but to express compassion toward how difficult it can be. And for those who make some progress there will be the challenges of being amidst others who are more fearful. It is a big work.

About age, I can only say that, whereas it is often associated with wisdom, from within the end zone it seems more like having had more time to make mistakes. As I mentioned to Dana, life review is not fun but, yes, I'm surely grateful for it.

I sense an evolving difference in my own process. I used to be focused on, as you say: "from the physical to the spiritual, from the finite to the infinite, fragmented to the integral" but now this end zone school seems to be bringing a shift in my process. Now I seem to be more focused on being more compassionate and less judgemental toward myself and others. I'm not proclaiming that this is higher or better or superior, just that it does feel more generative and integrative for where I am now.

OK, perhaps this will untangle a few knots.

Thanks, Lou. I appreciate the elaboration and agree with what you eloquently express above.

I just want to be clear, whenever I respond to you, my intention is not to engage you specifically in debate. I can definitely understand how your priorities have changed and why your approach is more fruitful for you now. I just want to offer a perspective on the same content for all who are interested to contemplate. I think we both agree that is ultimately how shared understanding evolves from differentiated perspectives.

[Lou Gold]

Wonderful, Ashvin. It's good to meet with you this way. Thank you for your kind words.

[Lou Gold]

One fast general comment. It seems to me that ANY movement from receiving to giving, from taking to making, or from me to we will be experienced as a "Freeing" and may be embraced as a profound spiritual practice, especially when focused on one's own inner dynamic. Again, it brings to my mind an awareness of the power of the simply stated "Peace Prayer of Saint Francis":

Lord make Me an instrument of Your peace
Where there is hatred let me sow love.
Where there is injury, pardon.
Where there is doubt, faith.
Where there is despair, hope.
Where there is darkness, light.
Where there is sadness joy.
O Divine master grant that I may
Not so much seek to be consoled as to console
To be understood, as to understand.
To be loved. as to love
For it's in giving that we receive
And it's in pardoning that we are pardoned
And it's in dying that we are born...
To eternal life.

I do think that I'd prefer to state the first practice as, "Where there is fear let me sow love", which, if directly inwardly, would seem to align it with what I understand Ashvin's short essay to be explicating.

[AshvinP]

One fast general comment. It seems to me that ANY movement from receiving to giving, from taking to making, or from me to we will be experienced as a "Freeing" and may be embraced as a profound spiritual practice, especially when focused on one's own inner dynamic. Again, it brings to my mind an awareness of the power of the simply stated "Peace Prayer of Saint Francis":

Lord make Me an instrument of Your peace
Where there is hatred let me sow love.
Where there is injury, pardon.
Where there is doubt, faith.
Where there is despair, hope.
Where there is darkness, light.
Where there is sadness joy.
O Divine master grant that I may
Not so much seek to be consoled as to console
To be understood, as to understand.
To be loved. as to love
For it's in giving that we receive
And it's in pardoning that we are pardoned
And it's in dying that we are born...
To eternal life.

I do think that I'd prefer to state the first practice as, "Where there is fear let me sow love", which, if directly inwardly, would seem to align it with what I understand Ashvin's short essay to be explicating.

Thanks, Lou. I agree. It's interesting how "faith" has come to mean "unconditional acceptance of propositional statements about God and humanity", which actually manifests resentment or pride rather than gratitude. Whereas the core spirit of faith, as nicely expressed above, is about trusting in our thinking experience of the inner logic unfolding through it. Put another way, faith is not about us knowing what to believe, but about us believing that we can know. It is about trusting that what we give to Nature in loving and grateful thought will also be received back in freedom, joy, and peace.

[Lou Gold]

One fast general comment. It seems to me that ANY movement from receiving to giving, from taking to making, or from me to we will be experienced as a "Freeing" and may be embraced as a profound spiritual practice, especially when focused on one's own inner dynamic. Again, it brings to my mind an awareness of the power of the simply stated "Peace Prayer of Saint Francis":

Lord make Me an instrument of Your peace
Where there is hatred let me sow love.
Where there is injury, pardon.
Where there is doubt, faith.
Where there is despair, hope.
Where there is darkness, light.
Where there is sadness joy.
O Divine master grant that I may
Not so much seek to be consoled as to console
To be understood, as to understand.
To be loved. as to love
For it's in giving that we receive
And it's in pardoning that we are pardoned
And it's in dying that we are born...
To eternal life.

I do think that I'd prefer to state the first practice as, "Where there is fear let me sow love", which, if directly inwardly, would seem to align it with what I understand Ashvin's short essay to be explicating.

Thanks, Lou. I agree. It's interesting how "faith" has come to mean "unconditional acceptance of propositional statements about God and humanity", which actually manifests resentment or pride rather than gratitude. Whereas the core spirit of faith, as nicely expressed above, is about trusting in our thinking experience of the inner logic unfolding through it. Put another way, faith is not about us knowing what to believe, but about us believing that we can know. It is about trusting that what we give to Nature in loving and grateful thought will also be received back in freedom, joy, and peace.

I especially appreciate your statement:

Put another way, faith is not about us knowing what to believe, but about us believing that we can know. It is about trusting that what we give to Nature in loving and grateful thought will also be received back in freedom, joy, and peace.

I also am adverse to dogmatic belief, preferring instead to place my faith in awareness itself. Perhaps it would be best to say thoughtful-awareness because I'm not trying to discriminate between the two terms. For me, the emphasis of the prayer is placed on the active verb "to sow." The idea is not replace fear with love as much as to attain a balance called a "calm clarity" knowing that one can be "blinded by the light" as well as "lost in the dark." A mundane example might be crossing the street on a lovely spring day with the air fragrant with blossoming Jasmine. One would not want to be so phobic of traffic to not step off the curb or so blissed out on beauty not to look both ways.

[Soul_of_Shu]

[Lou Gold]

Ashvin,

I'm not sure if this belongs here because I've lost track of which of many threads one of your comments belong. Somewhere you mentioned that you believe that there was an opportunity to make a spiritual progress at the beginning of the pandemic but that the opportunity was lost. Would you flesh out some particulars concerning how we might have better responded, and why you believe we did not? Thanks.

[AshvinP]

Ashvin,

I'm not sure if this belongs here because I've lost track of which of many threads one of your comments belong. Somewhere you mentioned that you believe that there was an opportunity to make a spiritual progress at the beginning of the pandemic but that the opportunity was lost. Would you flesh out some particulars concerning how we might have better responded, and why you believe we did not? Thanks.

Lou,

People were forced to stay at home and many to stop working for awhile. Assuming they were still able to provide for themselves and their family, how many took that opportunity to read, write, and generally Think more? How many turned inwards to work on themselves and grow spiritually? I'm not trying to blame anyone, because, as I also mentioned, many people simply have no idea that strenghtening their Thinking organism and "growing spiritually" is a possibility. I was into philosophy at that time, but of the purely abstract sort. It was only after I came across PoF via Scott and Cleric that I began to realize that it is even a possibility to move from pure abstract intellectual thinking to concrete spiritual activity. Once we become aware of that possibility, it then takes effort to act on it and make it more manifest in our own thinking experience. We are really very fortunate to be on this forum, but that treasure is wasted if it remains buried in the arid desert of the intellect. A major part of the problem is we have lost sight of the eternal. Actually we have lost interest in anything we can't hold in our hands or which does not manifest results within hours or a few days. That is the catch-22 of the modern age - that what will strengthen our individual, family, communal, national, and cultural lives the most - the concrete, living, and evolving Idea (and Thinking) - is viewed as emphemeral "subjective" things that have little to do with practical realities. We have even seen that sentiment expressed quite a bit on this 'idealist' forum. In my view, that is the exact opposite of the true situation for humanity today.

[Lou Gold]

Ashvin,

I'm not sure if this belongs here because I've lost track of which of many threads one of your comments belong. Somewhere you mentioned that you believe that there was an opportunity to make a spiritual progress at the beginning of the pandemic but that the opportunity was lost. Would you flesh out some particulars concerning how we might have better responded, and why you believe we did not? Thanks.

Lou,

People were forced to stay at home and many to stop working for awhile. Assuming they were still able to provide for themselves and their family, how many took that opportunity to read, write, and generally Think more? How many turned inwards to work on themselves and grow spiritually? I'm not trying to blame anyone, because, as I also mentioned, many people simply have no idea that strenghtening their Thinking organism and "growing spiritually" is a possibility. I was into philosophy at that time, but of the purely abstract sort. It was only after I came across PoF via Scott and Cleric that I began to realize that it is even a possibility to move from pure abstract intellectual thinking to concrete spiritual activity. Once we become aware of that possibility, it then takes effort to act on it and make it more manifest in our own thinking experience. We are really very fortunate to be on this forum, but that treasure is wasted if it remains buried in the arid desert of the intellect. A major part of the problem is we have lost sight of the eternal. Actually we have lost interest in anything we can't hold in our hands or which does not manifest results within hours or a few days. That is the catch-22 of the modern age - that what will strengthen our individual, family, communal, national, and cultural lives the most - the concrete, living, and evolving Idea (and Thinking) - is viewed as emphemeral "subjective" things that have little to do with practical realities. We have even seen that sentiment expressed quite a bit on this 'idealist' forum. In my view, that is the exact opposite of the true situation for humanity today.

Yes, the challenges and joys of moving from the abstract to the concrete are great.

Here's how some have been thinking about it.

Happy holidays to you.