(Short) Freeing the Force of Gratitude

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Ben Iscatus
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Re: (Short) Freeing the Force of Gratitude

Post by Ben Iscatus »

I suppose, thanks to the toothache, one is reminded about the benefit of taking care of one's teeth?
You may have heard this "looking on the bright side" joke, Dana:
When my best friend died yesterday, I went to see his wife.
I said to her, “Look on the bright side, at least he’s not suffering anymore.”
She said, “But he wasn’t sick, he died suddenly.”
I said “I know - I meant being married to you.”
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Soul_of_Shu
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Re: (Short) Freeing the Force of Gratitude

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

Ben Iscatus wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:27 pm You may have heard this "looking on the bright side" joke, Dana:
When my best friend died yesterday, I went to see his wife.
I said to her, “Look on the bright side, at least he’s not suffering anymore.”
She said, “But he wasn’t sick, he died suddenly.”
I said “I know - I meant being married to you.”
Ouch!!
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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Lou Gold
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Re: (Short) Freeing the Force of Gratitude

Post by Lou Gold »

Thanks Ashvin for a rich contemplation in the gratitude/pride dimension. It again reminded me of the closing lines of the poem of Thich Nhat Hanh:

Please call me by my true names,
so I can hear all my cries and laughter at once,
so I can see that my joy and pain are one.

Please call me by my true names,
so I can wake up
and the door of my heart
could be left open,
the door of compassion
.


And, as one with a passion for story, it made me remember the Kazantzakis novel, "The Last Temptation of Christ." In the movie version, the "temptation" is portrayed like this:

While on the cross, Jesus converses with a young girl who claims to be his guardian angel. She tells him that although he is the Son of God, he is not the Messiah, and that God is pleased with him, and wants him to be happy. She brings him down off the cross and, invisible to others, takes him to Mary Magdalene, whom he marries. They are soon expecting a child and living an idyllic life; but she abruptly dies, and Jesus is consoled by his angel; next he takes Mary and Martha, the sisters of Lazarus, for his wives. He starts a family with them, having many children, and lives his life in peace.

Many years later, Jesus encounters the apostle Paul preaching about the Messiah, telling stories of Jesus's resurrection and ascension to heaven. Jesus tries to tell Paul that he is the man about whom Paul has been preaching, and argues that salvation cannot be founded on lies. But Paul is unmoved, saying that even if his message is not the truth, it is what the world needs to hear, and nothing will stop him from proclaiming it.

Near the end of his life, an elderly Jesus calls his former disciples to his bed. Peter, Nathaniel, and a scarred John visit their master as Jerusalem is in the throes of the Jewish Rebellion against the Romans. Judas comes last and reveals that the youthful angel who released Jesus from the crucifixion is in fact Satan. Crawling back through the burning city of Jerusalem, Jesus reaches the site of his crucifixion at Golgotha and begs God to let him fulfill his purpose, stating "I want to be the Messiah!"

Suddenly Jesus finds himself on the cross once more, having overcome the "last temptation" of escaping death, being married and raising a family, and the ensuing disaster that would have consequently encompassed mankind. Naked and bloody, Jesus cries out in intense emotion as he dies, "It is accomplished!", in realization that he has saved the soul of man. The screen flickers to white as the sound of triumphant bells toll.
Source: Wikipedia
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
findingblanks
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Re: (Short) Freeing the Force of Gratitude

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"As an old guy in his end zone, I can testify that feeling grateful for waking and walking on this day and in this way is a worthy offering and profound experience."

Thanks for saying this, Lou.
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AshvinP
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Re: (Short) Freeing the Force of Gratitude

Post by AshvinP »

Ben Iscatus wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:41 pm
Ashvin wrote:We are not trying to "derive" God or spiritual reality of manifold beings, but to concretely perceive their activity in the phenomena around
I see - so we know God by engaging deeply with his works. This makes sense (it appeals to the Romantic in me) up to the point where I find myself unable to be grateful for something (e.g. toothache, friends being diagnosed with early onset dementia and Parkinson's disease...).

That's exactly why the force of gratitude should be known as a concrete reality rather than intellectual theory or religious dogma. I was thinking, what was it that made ancient people so much more brave in confronting the terrors of life, including physical death, of which there were many more and more frequent than we have to confront now? What motivated some to even sacrifice themselves for others? It is nothing other than the concrete perception of spiritual reality (by way of revelation through Nature) which gives rise to a profound sense of gratitude for existing, experiencing, and knowing. That is what we completely lack today, so it is no wonder we feel "unable to be grateful" if our internet goes out. I know you went for the most extreme example, but if we're being honest, even those little things frustrate us and make us feel justified in our ungratefulness. But perhaps we can reach a stage of spiritual knowledge and gratitude which also makes the worst horrors and tragedies of life bearable, because the only other alternative in the face of these inevitable tragedies is resentment, desires for vengeance, and motivation for perpetual war.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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Lou Gold
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Re: (Short) Freeing the Force of Gratitude

Post by Lou Gold »

Actually, I don't think that Ben, in focusing on a toothache or the illness of a friend, chose the extreme examples of things difficult to be grateful for. More extreme examples may soon manifest as painful stuff becomes more societal and collective, such as what may happen if the more infectious Omicron reduces the available workforce in hospitals and on the streets during a winter of more extreme weather events. (To save Dana angst I won't supply the links about the gathering "perfect storm".) If one reads the Book of Nature, as ecologists seek to do, some big changes, including the death of old structures and ways, are demanded because "nature bats last" or as Goethe put it: Life is her [nature's] most exquisite invention; and death is her expert contrivance to get plenty of life. Though the initiation into serious changes may be necessary and something to be ultimately grateful for, it can take a great deal of caring, sharing and compassion to get through it without fearfully making a difficult situation even worse. I cannot but offer a prayer that we may work better both individually and collectively to meet challenges way beyond our previous expectations.
Last edited by Lou Gold on Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:43 am, edited 3 times in total.
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
Ben Iscatus
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Re: (Short) Freeing the Force of Gratitude

Post by Ben Iscatus »

But perhaps we can reach a stage of spiritual knowledge and gratitude which also makes the worst horrors and tragedies of life bearable, because the only other alternative in the face of these inevitable tragedies is resentment, desires for vengeance, and motivation for perpetual war.
I see your point, though there is also Stoicism, as the Ancients practiced it.
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Soul_of_Shu
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Re: (Short) Freeing the Force of Gratitude

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Lou Gold wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:28 am To save Dana angst I won't supply the links
Yeah, where would we be without our diligent correspondent and those links, we who live with no access to the multitude of media outlets, in naive disregard of the dire circumstances. :?
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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AshvinP
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Re: (Short) Freeing the Force of Gratitude

Post by AshvinP »

Lou Gold wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:28 am Actually, I don't think that Ben, in focusing on a toothache or the illness of a friend, chose the extreme examples of things difficult to be grateful for. More extreme examples may soon manifest as painful stuff becomes more societal and collective, such as what may happen if the more infectious Omicron reduces the available workforce in hospitals and on the streets during a winter of more extreme weather events. (To save Dana angst I won't supply the links about the gathering "perfect storm".) If one reads the Book of Nature, as ecologists seek to do, some big changes, including the death of old structures and ways, are demanded because "nature bats last" or as Goethe put it: Life is her [nature's] most exquisite invention; and death is her expert contrivance to get plenty of life. Though the initiation into serious changes may be necessary and something to be ultimately grateful for, it can take a great deal of caring, sharing and compassion to get through it without fearfully making a difficult situation even worse. I cannot but offer a prayer that we may work better both individually and collectively to meet challenges way beyond our previous expectations.

As long as we fail to imagine a spiritual depth structure immanently weaving within the perceptible world, we will abstract, reduce, and physicalize all of her rich phenomena. Goethe was not saying "nature bats last" in the sense that you have used it above. In fact, physical death is not any permanent state of affairs or something to be terribly afraid of. The more we obsess ourselves about physical death, the less we perceive the holistic spiritual realities weaving through the Cosmos and our own inner experience, and the more likely we are to impose reckless and rash 'policies' on populations. Physical death is an image of unconsciousness, of the sort we also experience every night when going to sleep, when viewed from our limited cognitive perspective. From a higher spiritual perspective, it is a necessary condition of evolution in our current stages, i.e. Goethe's metamorphosis of the Spirit which he is speaking about in that quote.

Spiritual 'death' is what can really set us back in our evolutionary progress. It's not hard to see how blind fear of Omnicron and what not will practically impose spiritual death on people if it once again becomes about shutting businesses down, telling people not to interact with others too much, imposing additional vaccine mandates for every new strain, directing businesses not to employ people without up to date 'vaccine passports' for each new strain, not to speak or think about these things too much in public. You see, when the spiritual is ignored for long enough, we inevitably end up doing things which makes it even harder for us to find the spiritual even if we tried. That is "Nature batting last". Most people cannot even imagine reincarnation as a concrete reality, rather than a vague and comfortably distant intellectual theory, so all 'serious matters' are collapsed down into this one single lifetime. These are the aspects of Nature we need to start paying attention to if we have any interest in taking all this 'spiritual stuff' seriously.


"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [perpetual physicalized perspective]."
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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Lou Gold
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Re: (Short) Freeing the Force of Gratitude

Post by Lou Gold »

Ashvin,

Goethe was not saying "nature bats last" in the sense that you have used it above.


I grok the spiritual or transcendent perspective as well as evolution through multiple lifetimes. In my view Goethe was saying that Nature is lawful and both life and death are an integral part of the process. What I'm stating is that most folks at this moment of development of the human species do not hold this view with gratitude and therefore are likely to take or demand the fear response and will not welcome an initiation into new ways. Are you actually suggesting the process will be not be difficult for most and that it's not going to demand a great compassion from those who do understand? Loving acceptance, which is what gratitude is based on, is a great challenge, perhaps the greatest one of all, the challenge of Love.
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
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