(Short) Freeing the Force of Gratitude

[Lou Gold]

To save Dana angst I won't supply the links

Yeah, where would we be without our diligent correspondent and those links, we who live with no access to the multitude of media outlets, in naive disregard of the dire circumstances.

Dana,

C'mon. Of course, we are all aware. The point I make is simply that we do not talk concretely about that of which we are all aware and by not talking about it we make the challenges of praxis seem much easier or abstract or theoretical than they are.

[AshvinP]

Ashvin,

Goethe was not saying "nature bats last" in the sense that you have used it above.


I grok the spiritual or transcendent perspective as well as evolution through multiple lifetimes. In my view Goethe was saying that Nature is lawful and both life and death are an integral part of the process. What I'm stating is that most folks at this moment of development of the human species do not hold this view with gratitude and therefore are likely to take or demand the fear response and will not welcome an initiation into new ways. Are you actually suggesting the process will be not be difficult for most and that it's not going to demand a great compassion from those who do understand? Loving acceptance, which is what gratitude is based on, is a great challenge, perhaps the greatest one of all, the challenge of Love.

It will be difficult for most precisely because the spiritual evolutionary process has not been internalized as concrete reality. The fear response, and generally all self and other-destructive responses, is the response of people who are afraid to physically die more than anything else. By definition, that means they have not come to perceive spiritual realms and their own evolution through them over multiple lifetimes as a concrete reality. I would say even the 'true believers' will succumb to this response because what they hold as religious dogma has not been born again from within as inwardly perceived knowledge of Self, through Nature's appearances. In that sense, saying "Nature bats last" is another way of saying, "my own higher Self bats last". We can ignore it, but it won't ignore us, and the longer we ignore it, the worse its 'reaction' for us as spiritual (not physical) becomings.

[Soul_of_Shu]

C'mon. Of course, we are all aware. The point I make is simply that we do not talk concretely about that of which we are all aware and by not talking about it we make the challenges of praxis seem much easier or abstract or theoretical than they are.

And my point is of course we are all aware, and we can indeed discuss it within the nuanced context that you and Ashvin are currently engaged in. However, my main issue with the much of the mainstream news coverage is precisely because it doesn't contain that nuance, and is often highly politicized, and still focused within the same problematic mindset at the root of the problematic paradigm. Mind you, sharing them here I suppose does help to highlight the lack of such news-cycle nuance, so insofar as it doesn't just become a discussion embroiled in the same mindset, then I guess I'm thankful that you share them, if only to serve as an example of how not to frame the discussion, but rather do so in the way that you guys currently are

[Lou Gold]

Ashvin,

Goethe was not saying "nature bats last" in the sense that you have used it above.


I grok the spiritual or transcendent perspective as well as evolution through multiple lifetimes. In my view Goethe was saying that Nature is lawful and both life and death are an integral part of the process. What I'm stating is that most folks at this moment of development of the human species do not hold this view with gratitude and therefore are likely to take or demand the fear response and will not welcome an initiation into new ways. Are you actually suggesting the process will be not be difficult for most and that it's not going to demand a great compassion from those who do understand? Loving acceptance, which is what gratitude is based on, is a great challenge, perhaps the greatest one of all, the challenge of Love.

It will be difficult for most precisely because the spiritual evolutionary process has not been internalized as concrete reality. The fear response, and generally all self and other-destructive responses, is the response of people who are afraid to physically die more than anything else. By definition, that means they have not come to perceive spiritual realms and their own evolution through them over multiple lifetimes as a concrete reality. I would say even the 'true believers' will succumb to this response because what they hold as religious dogma has not been born again from within as inwardly perceived knowledge of Self, through Nature's appearances. In that sense, saying "Nature bats last" is another way of saying, "my own higher Self bats last". We can ignore it, but it won't ignore us, and the longer we ignore it, the worse its 'reaction' for us as spiritual (not physical) becomings.

Let me presume that we agree, that both of us correctly grok Goethean Science and that neither of us is afraid of death. How shall we best participate in the concrete realities we see unfolding around us?

I live in the home of a medical doctor who is a hospitalist and is regularly called to covid duty. He reports a staffing shortage in face of the approaching surge of illness. The national report is that there are presently 20% fewer healthcare staff than were present at the beginning of the pandemic. Some have left because of simple overwhelm. Some have left because they do not like vaccine mandates. Some don't want to work in the intensities of a fear-filled zone. Some have died. Some stick it out and do the best that they can. Got any advice to offer?

[Soul_of_Shu]

Got any advice to offer?

Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love

[Lou Gold]

C'mon. Of course, we are all aware. The point I make is simply that we do not talk concretely about that of which we are all aware and by not talking about it we make the challenges of praxis seem much easier or abstract or theoretical than they are.

And my point is of course we are all aware, and we can indeed discuss it within the nuanced context that you and Ashvin are currently engaged in. However, my main issue with the much of the mainstream news coverage is precisely because it doesn't contain that nuance, and is often highly politicized, and still focused within the same problematic mindset at the root of the problematic paradigm. Mind you, sharing them here I suppose does help to highlight the lack of such news-cycle nuance, so insofar as it doesn't just become a discussion embroiled in the same mindset, then I guess I'm thankful that you share them, if only to serve as an example of how not to frame the discussion, but rather do so in the way that you guys currently are

Thanks, Dana, for appreciating our efforts at nuance. Appropriately, your keyword above is "problematic". Ashvin has suggested a good work of being grateful for problems as the drivers of our evolution. Perhaps, this forum can be a place where problematic discussions can be welcomed?

[Lou Gold]

Got any advice to offer?

Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love

Right on, Dana. Let me note that I did not invent or read those words. They were given to me by a spirit being.

[Soul_of_Shu]

Perhaps, this forum can be a place where problematic discussions can be welcomed?

Much of the discussion on this forum is problematic, and rife with cognitive disconnects, misunderstandings, etc, which we attempt, however incrementally, to overcome. Certainly discerning between such problematic discussions, and discussions still wedded to, and thus instead of overcoming it, serving to recapitulate and reestablish here, the problematic mindset/paradigm, is a tricky road fraught with pitfalls. But I do feel we're making progress in delineating the difference.

[Lou Gold]

I appreciate and welcome the ongoing work.

[AshvinP]

Ashvin,

Goethe was not saying "nature bats last" in the sense that you have used it above.


I grok the spiritual or transcendent perspective as well as evolution through multiple lifetimes. In my view Goethe was saying that Nature is lawful and both life and death are an integral part of the process. What I'm stating is that most folks at this moment of development of the human species do not hold this view with gratitude and therefore are likely to take or demand the fear response and will not welcome an initiation into new ways. Are you actually suggesting the process will be not be difficult for most and that it's not going to demand a great compassion from those who do understand? Loving acceptance, which is what gratitude is based on, is a great challenge, perhaps the greatest one of all, the challenge of Love.

It will be difficult for most precisely because the spiritual evolutionary process has not been internalized as concrete reality. The fear response, and generally all self and other-destructive responses, is the response of people who are afraid to physically die more than anything else. By definition, that means they have not come to perceive spiritual realms and their own evolution through them over multiple lifetimes as a concrete reality. I would say even the 'true believers' will succumb to this response because what they hold as religious dogma has not been born again from within as inwardly perceived knowledge of Self, through Nature's appearances. In that sense, saying "Nature bats last" is another way of saying, "my own higher Self bats last". We can ignore it, but it won't ignore us, and the longer we ignore it, the worse its 'reaction' for us as spiritual (not physical) becomings.

Let me presume that we agree, that both of us correctly grok Goethean Science and that neither of us is afraid of death. How shall we best participate in the concrete realities we see unfolding around us?

I live in the home of a medical doctor who is a hospitalist and is regularly called to covid duty. He reports a staffing shortage in face of the approaching surge of illness. The national report is that there are presently 20% fewer healthcare staff than were present at the beginning of the pandemic. Some have left because of simple overwhelm. Some have left because they do not like vaccine mandates. Some don't want to work in the intensities of a fear-filled zone. Some have died. Some stick it out and do the best that they can. Got any advice to offer?

Yes and a lot of it is summarized and advocated for in my various essays and posts here. In short, for anyone who is still capable, which is probably most people, turn towards the eternal spiritual with persistence, patience, devotion, good will, and concrete Thinking effort. I also love the way Rilke put it:

“We, however, are not prisoners. No traps or snares have been set around us, and there is nothing that should frighten or upset us. We have been put into life as into the element we most accord with, and we have, moreover, through thousands of years of adaptation, come to resemble this life so greatly that when we hold still, through a fortunate mimicry we can hardly be differentiated from everything around us. We have no reason to harbor any mistrust against our world, for it is not against us. If it has terrors, they are our terrors; if it has abysses, these abysses belong to us; if there are dangers, we must try to love them. And if only we arrange our life in accordance with the principle which tells us that we must always trust in the difficult, then what now appears to us as the most alien will become our most intimate and trusted experience. How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love.”
― Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet