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Jim Cross wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:21 pm
I don't remember much from my sleep, an occasional dream is about all.
Why do you assume you should remember any of it?
If someone comes to your ear and screams very loudly to wake you up: who or what was there to hear the screaming?
Basically I believe consciousness is all about memory.
Even raw perception has a memory element to it. We do not perceive in real time. We perceive milliseconds later. Our perception is a record of something that happened before, now exactly what is happening now.
Many of the same neural circuits fire when we remember something that fired when we first experienced it. The brain isn't organized like a computer with a dedicated part for memory. There seem to be sections of the brain more related to memory but increasingly we are discovering those parts of the brain do more than just memory.
When we are conscious, we are capable of remembering, even though our memories are constantly being pruned to what seems to be more important things.
Memory is what enables learning. In a sense, it is learning.
Reaction to loud noise is a reflex. It's the startle reflex. During sleep, consciousness isn't involved in the reflex that triggers us to become awake.
Of course, we drift in and out of consciousness when we sleep so we can have memories of various periods during sleep, but during the periods when we are in deep sleep we do not remember.
Even if consciousness is all about memory as you say, then who or what is there to register these memories in the first place, and then who or what is there later to relive these memories? It's like you're not seeing the elephant in the room.
There is consciousness when you're asleep, but it's just not aware of itself, it's not meta-conscious as BK would say, and that's why it seems there was no consciousness at all, because you usually have no memories of it.
Czinczar wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:56 pm
Why do you assume you should remember any of it?
If someone comes to your ear and screams very loudly to wake you up: who or what was there to hear the screaming?
Basically I believe consciousness is all about memory.
Even raw perception has a memory element to it. We do not perceive in real time. We perceive milliseconds later. Our perception is a record of something that happened before, now exactly what is happening now.
Many of the same neural circuits fire when we remember something that fired when we first experienced it. The brain isn't organized like a computer with a dedicated part for memory. There seem to be sections of the brain more related to memory but increasingly we are discovering those parts of the brain do more than just memory.
When we are conscious, we are capable of remembering, even though our memories are constantly being pruned to what seems to be more important things.
Memory is what enables learning. In a sense, it is learning.
Reaction to loud noise is a reflex. It's the startle reflex. During sleep, consciousness isn't involved in the reflex that triggers us to become awake.
Of course, we drift in and out of consciousness when we sleep so we can have memories of various periods during sleep, but during the periods when we are in deep sleep we do not remember.
Even if consciousness is all about memory as you say, then who or what is there to register these memories in the first place, and then who or what is there later to relive these memories? It's like you're not seeing the elephant in the room.
There is consciousness when you're asleep, but it's just not aware of itself, it's not meta-conscious as BK would say, and that's why it seems there was no consciousness at all, because you usually have no memories of it.
Self is the ultimate false memory that tries to stitch experience together. There is no true metacognition.
Jim Cross wrote: ↑Sun Dec 19, 2021 2:20 pm
Self is the ultimate false memory that tries to stitch experience together. There is no true metacognition.
Yes but I am not talking about the self, which you are right is just a thought. I am talking about the "witness/consciousness", the thing that can experience all of this, the self and memories, and every other experience in between included.
The difference with BK is that I don't think we are the mind, because it is always changing. What we are is the thing that is witnessing all the stuff that our mind produces. The problem is that as soon as we point our finger on it, we are mistaken, because we can't be the witness and the thing being witnessed at the same time.
But it seems that for you, there is no consciousness, there is just experience.
Jim Cross wrote: ↑Sun Dec 19, 2021 2:20 pm
Self is the ultimate false memory that tries to stitch experience together. There is no true metacognition.
Yes but I am not talking about the self, which you are right is just a thought. I am talking about the "witness/consciousness", the thing that can experience all of this, the self and memories, and every other experience in between included.
The difference with BK is that I don't think we are the mind, because it is always changing. What we are is the thing that is witnessing all the stuff that our mind produces. The problem is that as soon as we point our finger on it, we are mistaken, because we can't be the witness and the thing being witnessed at the same time.
But it seems that for you, there is no consciousness, there is just experience.
The witness is the same as self. It's an illusion, false memory.
