Greer post on philosophy

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Ben Iscatus
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Greer post on philosophy

Post by Ben Iscatus »

https://www.ecosophia.net/on-domed-citi ... ed-dreams/
John Michael Greer, synchronistically, has come out with a post about philosophy in which he supports Kant over Hegel and Steiner. Further posts on Steiner will follow. Some may wish to comment on this at Greer's site.

Some quotes from his article:
Kant lived long before quantum theory, of course, but he got to many of the same conclusions well in advance by sheer ruthless logic. He even showed that space and time as we experience them are products of human consciousness, not “out there” in the world. There are doubtless things analogous to space and time in what he called the Ding an sich, the “thing in itself,” but we don’t know anything about them, and as the quantum physicists showed later on, they routinely behave in ways that make hash of our notions of the way space and time work. Thus we cannot know the world directly. All we can know is a model of that world assembled by our minds and nervous systems. That model is good enough for the purposes of everyday life and it can be leveraged in clever ways by scientists, but it can never tell us the truth about the world. That was the discovery that rattled the foundations of eighteenth-century Europe.
The quest for an answer to Kant fell broadly into two broad overlapping phases. The first, which had its peak in the 19th century, took its keynote from Hegel, who simply insisted that the mind had something called “intellectual intuition” which enabled it to do an end run around Kant’s challenge. That didn’t work very well, not least because no two philosophers seemed to be able to get the same results with their “intellectual intuition.” That difficulty led most later thinkers to interpret Hegel’s phrase as meaning something much closer to “brain fart.”

Despite the joke, this wasn’t a light matter. European thought inherited from its Christian roots the idea that knowing the truth about the world was a matter far more serious than mere life and death. That was why Friedrich Nietzsche—another thinker who took Kant’s insight seriously—wrote mordantly about the chaos set in motion by the collapse of the idea that the world known by the mind is the real world. That was also why Rudolf Steiner, whose ideas we’ll be discussing in future posts, launched his career with a volume, The Philosophy of Freedom, in which he tried to prove that thinking really could grasp the objective truth about the world. It was a gallant attempt, and he carried it out about as well as anyone could have done, but it didn’t work. He had the good sense to turn in other directions thereafter.
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AshvinP
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Re: Greer post on philosophy

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Ben Iscatus wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 5:45 pm https://www.ecosophia.net/on-domed-citi ... ed-dreams/
John Michael Greer, synchronistically, has come out with a post about philosophy in which he supports Kant over Hegel and Steiner. Further posts on Steiner will follow. Some may wish to comment on this at Greer's site.

Some quotes from his article:
Kant lived long before quantum theory, of course, but he got to many of the same conclusions well in advance by sheer ruthless logic. He even showed that space and time as we experience them are products of human consciousness, not “out there” in the world. There are doubtless things analogous to space and time in what he called the Ding an sich, the “thing in itself,” but we don’t know anything about them, and as the quantum physicists showed later on, they routinely behave in ways that make hash of our notions of the way space and time work. Thus we cannot know the world directly. All we can know is a model of that world assembled by our minds and nervous systems. That model is good enough for the purposes of everyday life and it can be leveraged in clever ways by scientists, but it can never tell us the truth about the world. That was the discovery that rattled the foundations of eighteenth-century Europe.
The quest for an answer to Kant fell broadly into two broad overlapping phases. The first, which had its peak in the 19th century, took its keynote from Hegel, who simply insisted that the mind had something called “intellectual intuition” which enabled it to do an end run around Kant’s challenge. That didn’t work very well, not least because no two philosophers seemed to be able to get the same results with their “intellectual intuition.” That difficulty led most later thinkers to interpret Hegel’s phrase as meaning something much closer to “brain fart.”

Despite the joke, this wasn’t a light matter. European thought inherited from its Christian roots the idea that knowing the truth about the world was a matter far more serious than mere life and death. That was why Friedrich Nietzsche—another thinker who took Kant’s insight seriously—wrote mordantly about the chaos set in motion by the collapse of the idea that the world known by the mind is the real world. That was also why Rudolf Steiner, whose ideas we’ll be discussing in future posts, launched his career with a volume, The Philosophy of Freedom, in which he tried to prove that thinking really could grasp the objective truth about the world. It was a gallant attempt, and he carried it out about as well as anyone could have done, but it didn’t work. He had the good sense to turn in other directions thereafter.
Thanks, Ben. I am honestly glad that we finally have someone directly confronting Steiner's epistemology in relation to Kant. Most philosophers arent even aware of this challenge. It could at least be a good springboard for deeper discussion.

On the other hand, this was not a promising start at all. His second sentence already implies a dualism, i.e. according to him, "products of human consciousness" cannot also mean content of the objective Reality, veiled abstractly by our very recent addition of rational intellect. Its remarkable to me how such well informed people keep making this same mistake Kant made from the outset, especially metaphysical idealists. Rational intellect was last cognitive mode to develop and will be first to go. So Greer has already reified the limitations of his own intellect into that of the Cosmos at large, just like Kant. Everyone, Steiner especially, understood that abstract space and linear time do not directly reflect the underlying Reality. But notice Greer inadvertently admits Kant was in error, "there are doubtless things analogous to space-time". He has already demolished his own argument in support of Kant. His thinking has already gone beyond the 'impenetrable veil' to perceive the analogy which marries phenomena with noumena, which is supposed to be impossible according to Kant and himself. I will take a look at the rest of the article, but so far it's a very disappointing effort by Greer.
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Re: Greer post on philosophy

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

Ben Iscatus wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 5:45 pm https://www.ecosophia.net/on-domed-citi ... ed-dreams/
John Michael Greer, synchronistically, has come out with a post about philosophy in which he supports Kant over Hegel and Steiner. Further posts on Steiner will follow. Some may wish to comment on this at Greer's site.
Steiner cult crusaders here no doubt planning to invade Ecosophia soon, bible-thumping PoF upon these Thinking-impaired numbskulls, swarming the comments section with several-page-long objections and edifications, as Kantian-divided they shall surely fall. ;)
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
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where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
Ben Iscatus
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Re: Greer post on philosophy

Post by Ben Iscatus »

Steiner cult crusaders here no doubt planning to invade Ecosophia soon, bible-thumping PoF upon these Thinking-impaired numbskulls, swarming the comments section with several-page-long objections and edifications, as Kantian-divided they shall surely fall.

On Greer's site one has to be very polite when disagreeing with him, or one's post will be deleted...
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Re: Greer post on philosophy

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Ben Iscatus wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:03 pm On Greer's site one has to be very polite when disagreeing with him, or one's post will be deleted...
No problem, I am Canadian after all ;) But my job at this forum leaves no more time to be allotted to commentary elsewhere, besides which I find it problematic to interact within that comment format. Does Greer allow links to other sites, e.g. with an invite to join this one, where we sometimes, as you lot say, 'take the piss' and get a bit pissy ?
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
Ben Iscatus
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Re: Greer post on philosophy

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Does Greer allow links to other sites, e.g. with an invite to join this one, where we sometimes, as you lot say, 'take the piss' and get a bit pissy ?
Something like this might pass: "By synchronicity, Mr Greer, some of us have been discussing Rudolf Steiner's PoF and the Kantian Divide for several weeks. We are very much looking forward to reading your own analysis and welcome comments by your readers at metakastrup.org".
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Re: Greer post on philosophy

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Here's my comment, which was approved. Hopefully it's responded to as well. I have a feeling that's very unlikely.

JMG,

Thank you for this article. I am glad that someone is finally confronting Steiner’s epistemology in relation to Kant. Most philosophers arent even aware of this challenge. It could at least be a good springboard for deeper discussion.

That being said… this was not a promising start at all.

JMG: “He even showed that space and time as we experience them are products of human consciousness, not “out there” in the world.”

This quote aove already implies a dualism, i.e. “products of human consciousness” cannot also mean the content of the objective Reality. That is a clear reflection of the Cartesian mind/matter divide that Kant also subconsciously imported into this epistemology and has practically been with us ever since, save for a few thinkers such as Steiner. There is no logical warrant for assuming this divide from the outset and it throws off all subsequent reasoning through what it means to “know” the noumenal Reality.

The evolution of cognition is also being ignored entirely, which was understandable for Kant, but is not anymore, especially after Steiner, Barfield, Gebser, Jung Teilhard de Chardin, Auribindo, and others have documented it so extensively. Rational intellect was last cognitive mode to develop and it will be first to go as imaginative cognition blossoms. So you also reified the limitations of his abstract intellect, which humanity has only been with since the 15-16th cenutries, into that of the Cosmos at large and practically for all people and all time, just like Kant. This is a naive realism of cognition – it is implicitly claimed that what immediately appears to be the way humanity cognizes the world is actually the essence of cognition itself.

All of these philosophers, and Steiner especially, understood that abstract space and linear time do not directly reflect the underlying Reality. The question is whether our Thinking can trace back the relations from which space-time and spatiotemporal symbols were abstracted from. You inadvertently admit this is possible and therefore Kant was in error when saying, “there are doubtless things analogous to space-time”. Your own thinking activity has already gone beyond the ‘impenetrable veil’ of the phenomenal world to perceive the analogy which marries phenomena and noumena, which is supposed to be impossible under Kant’s epistemology. Emerson summed it up when he wrote,

“Space, time, society, labor, climate, food, locomotion, the animals, the mechanical forces, give us sincerest lessons, day by day, whose meaning is unlimited. They educate both the Understanding and the Reason. Every property of matter is a school for the understanding,— its solidity or resistance, its inertia, its extension, its figure, its divisibility. The understanding adds, divides, combines, measures, and finds nutriment and room for its activity in this worthy scene. Meantime, Reason transfers all these lessons into its own world of thought, by perceiving the analogy that marries Matter and Mind.”

– Ralph Waldo Emerson, Nature (1836)
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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Re: Greer post on philosophy

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Ashvin, if it's approved, he nearly always responds (just once) -in a day or two.
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Re: Greer post on philosophy

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AshvinP wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:37 pm Here's my comment, which was approved. Hopefully it's responded to as well. I have a feeling that's very unlikely.

Well done ... you'd even have earned an honorary Canadian politeness badge, had you just thrown in a 'sorry' or two.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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AshvinP
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Re: Greer post on philosophy

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Ben Iscatus wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 9:58 pm Ashvin, if it's approved, he nearly always responds (just once) -in a day or two.
Well, I got my one response, which did not directly address any argument I made :roll:

I guess I will wait for the next article to extract one more from him. JMG's "brilliant but flawed" comment makes me think his position is an exact mirror image of FB's :) Instead of saying PoF is brilliant and SS is flawed, he says PoF is flawed but Theosophical understanding was brilliant. So that is an interesting twist in the plot, at least.


JMG:"Awakening, if by “promising” you mean accepting the truth of everything Steiner said, yes, you’re going to be disappointed, but then I never promised that. I consider Steiner’s work to be brilliant but flawed, and as I see it, his rejection of Kant’s insights into the relation of appearance and reality (not “mind and matter”) is one of the reasons his ideas are flawed. "


I just meant, based on what was written here, I don't think you have *understood* The Philosophy of Freedom. So your critique of it in subsequent articles will likely be critiquing your own misunderstanding rather than his phenomenological arguments. I have see this happen many times. But, if you are actually going to critique the phenomenology, I will wait to consider your arguments. Thanks for the response and I look forward to the deeper treatment.

The modern metaphysical dualisms employed by various thinkers are all manifestations of the same one, which is essentially subject-object (or spirit-soul). Mind-matter, spirit-matter, ideal-real, appearance-reality, phenomenon-noumenon, etc. are all pointing to the same dualism which is subconsciously imported from the outset. Everyone thinks *someone else* is employing this dualism but not him or herself. Since you did not directly address that major flaw of Kantian epistemology in the article or in your response to me, I assume you will in a subsequent article. I don't see how any sound evaluation of Kantian or Steiner's epistemology can be done if that issue is sidestepped altogether.


JMG: "As for the rest, you seem to be jumping to a galaxy of unwarranted conclusions; I’ll be discussing the evolution of consciousness, though I disagree sharply with the frankly dubious linear models the thinkers you’ve named have imposed on the evolutionary process, and I’m not suggesting that Steiner abandoned the phenomenology of perception and cognition — quite the contrary, with the beginning of his Theosophical phase he took it in a new and immensely promising direction, one that deserves far more attention and development than it’s received. The mere fact that Steiner made some mistakes in that process is normal in pioneering a venture, and simply means that much more work is needed."


I am not sure what you mean by "linear models". They all recognized the qualitative leaps in cognitive evolution, which proceeds through alternating polar forces of expansion-contraction, just as all other natural living phenomena. Gebser documents the entire process from the 'archaic' cognition to our current 'a-perspectival', "time-free" cognition with exquisite detail in The Ever-Present Origin, drawing from ancient art, mythology, spiritual traditions, philosophy, exoteric religion, and modern science. So I hope you accurately represent the "evolution of consciousness" as people like Steiner and Barfield and Gebser understood and communicated it in their writings.

re: Steiner, PoF, Theosophy and Anthroposophy - *From Steiner's perspective*, discovering the immanent participatory role of Thinking in co-creating the phenomenal content from within is the most important step in our spiritual evolution. It only became possible to do under the Christ-impulse which began unfolding in the 19th century. That, in turn, is at the entire foundation of Theosophy and Anthroposophy. So if your inclination is to sever the deep connection between PoF and Theosophy in your critique, I'm afraid you will be *misrepresenting* PoF and/or Theosophy. It isn't about whether you agree with PoF or not, but whether you are even understanding and representing it accurately. Based on your comments so far to myself and others, it seems very unlikely that you are. But, again, I am open to the possibility that I am wrong and am hoping you give Steiner a more fair and deeper treatment in subsequent writings. Thank you.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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