Nonetheless, it is a technical term that redefines the derivation of 'observe', i.e. to watch or look at. One can only conclude that in the materialist effort to remove consciousness from factoring into the process, and not be seen to be making claims tantamount to panpsychism, they had to invent the notion of a non-conscious watcher.Jim Cross wrote: ↑Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:01 pmIt's a technical term.Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Wed Dec 22, 2021 2:37 pmThanks for making my point. The derivation of observe is 'to watch' or to 'look at', implying subjectivity. To suggest that a brick reacting to sunlight by heating up is somehow 'watching' or 'looking at' or 'sensing' the sunlight, is tantamount to the panpsychism which holds that discrete ontic particles have conscious agency. So, when it is applied to a measurement apparatus that should not be taken to imply some kind of subjective features, like watching and looking, how is it not a re-defining of the derivation of the term?Jim Cross wrote: ↑Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:52 pm Of course the introduction of the observer must not be misunderstood to imply that some kind of subjective features are to be brought into the description of nature. The observer has, rather, only the function of registering decisions, i.e., processes in space and time, and it does not matter whether the observer is an apparatus or a human being; but the registration, i.e., the transition from the "possible" to the "actual," is absolutely necessary here and cannot be omitted from the interpretation of quantum theory.[6]
Debunking idealism old and new
- Soul_of_Shu
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Re: Debunking idealism old and new
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
Re: Debunking idealism old and new
I would argue that probably the physicist's use of the term corresponds more closely to its colloquial usage than your usage.Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:13 pmNonetheless, it is a technical term that redefines the derivation of 'observe', i.e. to watch or look at. One can only conclude that in the materialist effort to remove consciousness from factoring into the process, and not be seen to be making claims tantamount to panpsychism, they had to invent the notion of a non-conscious watcher.Jim Cross wrote: ↑Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:01 pmIt's a technical term.Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Wed Dec 22, 2021 2:37 pm
Thanks for making my point. The derivation of observe is 'to watch' or to 'look at', implying subjectivity. To suggest that a brick reacting to sunlight by heating up is somehow 'watching' or 'looking at' or 'sensing' the sunlight, is tantamount to the panpsychism which holds that discrete ontic particles have conscious agency. So, when it is applied to a measurement apparatus that should not be taken to imply some kind of subjective features, like watching and looking, how is it not a re-defining of the derivation of the term?
To observe implies perceiving something else but there is no something else for the mind-at-large to perceive.
- Soul_of_Shu
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Re: Debunking idealism old and new
There's a colloquial usage other than, e.g., I'm observing/watching/looking at this text? Pray tell?
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
Re: Debunking idealism old and new
But wait. The mind-at-large isn't metacognitive. It can't observe itself.Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:31 pmThere's a colloquial usage other than, e.g., I'm observing/watching/looking at this text? Pray tell?
- Soul_of_Shu
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Re: Debunking idealism old and new
Nice try with the head-fake, but it's still fourth down and tenJim Cross wrote: ↑Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:33 pmBut wait. The mind-at-large isn't metacognitive. It can't observe itself.Soul_of_Shu wrote: ↑Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:31 pmThere's a colloquial usage other than, e.g., I'm observing/watching/looking at this text? Pray tell?
![Wink ;)](./images/smilies/icon_e_wink.gif)
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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Re: Debunking idealism old and new
This, "Classic idealism, formulated by Bishop Berkeley in a number of works in the 18th Century,", must mean specifically Western or German Idealism? Idealism more generally goes back many thousands of years in both the Western and Eastern schools, no?
Re: Debunking idealism old and new
The materialism/idealism debate goes back thousands of years in both Eastern and Western traditions. Most people don't realize the materialistic elements in tantrism.carlodicelico wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:58 pm This, "Classic idealism, formulated by Bishop Berkeley in a number of works in the 18th Century,", must mean specifically Western or German Idealism? Idealism more generally goes back many thousands of years in both the Western and Eastern schools, no?
That is why the debate is unproductive. If it could have been resolved, it would have been resolved by now.
Re: Debunking idealism old and new
I question the 'intersubjective agreement' presupposition of Materialism - - considering the variations in our psycophysilology, agreements should be rare. Materialism assumes our machinery generates nearly identical experiences across human observers - has this ever been established as true.
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Re: Debunking idealism old and new
I think that if we are to experience the consciousness of other people we would experience the greatest shock in our life for how different their world is compared to ours. Think only about the duck-rabbit image. Let's say that a person only saw ducks previous to seeing this image, and another person only saw rabbits prior. Their "common world of the shape" would be experienced in such utter different ways, that that "common world" would not be common at all.
My work on consciousness: https://philpeople.org/profiles/cosmin-visan