(Medium-Long) Infernal Loops of the Abstract Intellect

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AshvinP
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Re: (Medium-Long) Infernal Loops of the Abstract Intellect

Post by AshvinP »

Anthony66 wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 12:29 pm Ashvin,

There's a lot of good stuff in there but I'm failing to see significant connection to my question pertaining to the Incarnation. What is B-S-S?
Anthony,

B-S-S is Body-Soul-Spirit. For this discussion, we can associate it with Perception (Body-Soul) and Idea-Meaning (Spirit).

The Incarnation is our logical reasoning faculty (Logos principle) who discerns Idea-Meaning within and through Perceptions (outer and inner, including thought-forms). Prior the Incarnation, this faculty did not live in our physical thinking organism. Now it does and can ascend back into the higher realms of Soul-Spirit. Much more can be said about that, but does this make more clear the connection between the Incarnation and Thinking? Again, if we hold this completely as an intellectual theory, it won't really aid our understanding. We must try and relate it to our first-person concrete experience of the world of appearances when we confront it with our Logos principle i.e. logical reasoning.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
Anthony66
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Re: (Medium-Long) Infernal Loops of the Abstract Intellect

Post by Anthony66 »

AshvinP wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 2:51 pm
Anthony66 wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 12:29 pm Ashvin,

There's a lot of good stuff in there but I'm failing to see significant connection to my question pertaining to the Incarnation. What is B-S-S?
Anthony,

B-S-S is Body-Soul-Spirit. For this discussion, we can associate it with Perception (Body-Soul) and Idea-Meaning (Spirit).

The Incarnation is our logical reasoning faculty (Logos principle) who discerns Idea-Meaning within and through Perceptions (outer and inner, including thought-forms). Prior the Incarnation, this faculty did not live in our physical thinking organism. Now it does and can ascend back into the higher realms of Soul-Spirit. Much more can be said about that, but does this make more clear the connection between the Incarnation and Thinking? Again, if we hold this completely as an intellectual theory, it won't really aid our understanding. We must try and relate it to our first-person concrete experience of the world of appearances when we confront it with our Logos principle i.e. logical reasoning.
There are some big claims in there! While I'm comfortable with an evolution of thinking/perception through the ages, a discontinuity that you appear to be describing is a challenge to get one's head around. I wonder what the Psalmist was thinking when he wrote:
When I consider your heavens,
the work of your fingers,
the moon and the stars,
which you have set in place,
what is mankind that you are mindful of them,
human beings that you care for them?
Was he devoid of ability to discern Idea-Meaning? What did his considerations involve?
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AshvinP
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Re: (Medium-Long) Infernal Loops of the Abstract Intellect

Post by AshvinP »

Anthony66 wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:07 am
AshvinP wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 2:51 pm
Anthony66 wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 12:29 pm Ashvin,

There's a lot of good stuff in there but I'm failing to see significant connection to my question pertaining to the Incarnation. What is B-S-S?
Anthony,

B-S-S is Body-Soul-Spirit. For this discussion, we can associate it with Perception (Body-Soul) and Idea-Meaning (Spirit).

The Incarnation is our logical reasoning faculty (Logos principle) who discerns Idea-Meaning within and through Perceptions (outer and inner, including thought-forms). Prior the Incarnation, this faculty did not live in our physical thinking organism. Now it does and can ascend back into the higher realms of Soul-Spirit. Much more can be said about that, but does this make more clear the connection between the Incarnation and Thinking? Again, if we hold this completely as an intellectual theory, it won't really aid our understanding. We must try and relate it to our first-person concrete experience of the world of appearances when we confront it with our Logos principle i.e. logical reasoning.
There are some big claims in there! While I'm comfortable with an evolution of thinking/perception through the ages, a discontinuity that you appear to be describing is a challenge to get one's head around. I wonder what the Psalmist was thinking when he wrote:
When I consider your heavens,
the work of your fingers,
the moon and the stars,
which you have set in place,
what is mankind that you are mindful of them,
human beings that you care for them?
Was he devoid of ability to discern Idea-Meaning? What did his considerations involve?
Anthony,

I am simply trying to clarify what the conclusion Is re: Incarnation and our own activity, not presenting arguments for that conclusion. As mentioned before, intellectual arguments cannot really satisfy us for this sort of conclusion, because it is a fundamentally experiential one within the inmost core of our human be-ing. What we can do is strengthen our living Reason so that, when confronted with all the various symbols which point towards this reality within us, of which the entire world of appearances is a symbol in many ways, we are able to discern their essential meaning.

Notice the Psalmist is writing prior to the Incarnation. The sense of "I" who is responsible for thinking is only very nascent at this stage. This is at the dawn of the Greco-Roman epoch. Nevertheless, the very question asked by the Psalmist reflects this dawning self-awareness. He is wondering what is the connection between the Cosmos at large, fashioned by Divinity, and his existence as a localized human individual with an emerging thought-life. There is still a Memory, but growing more dim, that humanity was, in fact, more united with the Divine realms in the past. These questions gave rise to everything we now know as philosophy, art, and science. The latter can all be viewed as inquiries into this same question asked by the Psalmist, except now we mostly abstract from the primordial Spirit to our own flattened concepts of "God", "Universe", "MAL", "quantum void", etc.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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Re: (Medium-Long) Infernal Loops of the Abstract Intellect

Post by Federica »

AshvinP wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 4:52 pm
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We are now discussing a most serious and sensitive topic in an impartial and dispassionate way. This topic comes with many preconceptions and prejudices in our modern culture. Still, if we approach it with good will, seeking only understanding without judgment - illumination without prejudice - I trust that it can be of value for those who persist. The topic is "Hell". I am not asking anyone to 'forget' all that they have ever thought about Hell, because that is impossible. Instead, I am requesting that readers attempt to take those preconceptions and imbue them with a new life - a new depth of meaning - through our shared exploration.  We will first briefly set a few foundations for our topic, so that it becomes more clear why none of what follows is purely speculative opinion or argument, but reasoned observation from our concrete experience. In a
previous essay, we discussed how the spatial dimensions we perceive are intellectual representations of meaningful duration; that those spatial dimensions are entirely subconscious representations of meaningful purposes and goals. In the words of Henri Bergson, "intellectualized time is space... the intelligence works upon the phantom of duration, not on duration itself... the elimination of time is the habitual, normal, commonplace act of our understanding...". When we think intellectually, we fix phenomena in time, via space, for quantitative analysis.

It is very difficult for the intellect to wrap its head around this concept, because the intellect is the one 'eliminating' duration for its analysis of the concept. We can sense this difficulty with a simple exercise: picture to yourself the image of an apple falling. Easy, right? Now, try to picture the act of 'falling' without any corresponding object that is falling. We cannot picture that act in our minds and we will even find it difficult to sense the meaning of 'falling' without any object. By focusing on this non-visual meaning of 'falling', in a holistic rather than analytical way, we can sense a dim idea of 'durational separation' which occurs without spatial dimension. That is how, according to Bergson, we start to "
pass from intellection to vision, from the relative to the absolute... getting back into duration [and] the very mobility which is its essence.” Why is it that Dante's vision of the Inferno has stood the test of time for 700 years now, imprinting itself within the collective Western imagination? It is because his thoughtfully poetic narrative embeds a shared imagery which speaks to our understanding of Hell, not in the spatialized language of a 'place' or one-off 'event', but in the living and durational language of process. It speaks in the poetic language of digressing, descending, and devolving. The richly symbolic narrative provides us the inner meaning of non-spatial falling.

Hell is the continuation of humanity's Fall, recounted across all the world's mythic traditions. The 'hellish' state occurs within the physical and spiritual planes which are interwoven and enmeshed. It is an unnatural progression because human individuals now have the capacity to evolve back to the spiritual rather than descend further into the physical, if they so choose. There are quite a few people who, however, will never consider the 'falling apple' exercise above. They will never make the distinction between the intellectual elimination of time and the higher vision of meaningful duration because they are unaware that this distinction exists. Instead, many people will remain spellbound to the narrative that their intellectual theorizing can lift them into higher spheres of integral meaning. What I am writing here is by no means an original argument. In the 1920s, Rudolf Steiner had already cautioned, "
People must become thinking people instead of thinking machines." A few decades later, Martin Heidegger gave a series of lectures rooted in the premise, "we [humanity] are still not yet Thinking." Around the same time, Owen Barfield commented, "Thought – and indeed anything mixed with thought – we now feel to be no more than a shadow hovering over the surface of something more solid."

"For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him."
- Matthew 13:12


This verse above reflects the "
Matthew Principle", which is considered one of the most "unjust" in all of the New Testament. It does not seem in keeping with the pleasant and egalitarian nature of the Jesus who is portrayed in the Gospels; the Jesus who went around blessing the "least of these" and the "poor in Spirit". Instead, it seems much more in keeping with the 'judgmental' Jesus of the Apocalypse (Book of Revelation), whose angels proclaimed, "... and the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (14:11). Verses like these make clear that, if we desire more penetrating insights into the Spirit of the text as a whole - the Spirit which rests at the base of Western civilization - we must ascend to meet that Spirit in our own thoughtful effort. It's meaning will not simply occur to us as it does when we are in a state of dreaming. Instead, we must awaken to its meaning from within so that we can perceive that meaning in full clarity of consciousness. That is how the 'top-down' grace of the Spirit naturally comes into contact with the 'bottom-up' thought-works of man. It is how we "will be caught up together with [the dead in Christ] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

Take notice of how the Apocalypse, like Dante's later visions, reveals to us an ongoing process of infernal descent which unfolds in stages of increasing intensity. God's judgment against the wicked unfolds in sevenfold stages reflected in the churches who are addressed, the seals opened, the trumpets blown, and the bowls of wrath poured out. Throughout the whole process, the themes of repentance, redemption, and resurrection that we find in the Gospels and Epistles are also implicit, since there is still further for the souls to descend at each stage. Yet we also approach a sense of 'finality' as we cross the verse:  "
Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666." (13:18). It is not necessary to discuss this in any more detail for our purposes. We can simply observe that there are seven nested processes of evolution imaged in the Apocalypse, and the 'number of man' appears to correspond with the sixth stage of three different ones. Perhaps this relates to the saying, "the third time's the charm"? The main point being that, even when evolutionary paths diverge due to the Matthew principle (discussed below), each individual has plenty of opportunities to free their 'fate' from the course of strict necessity.

The Matthew principle reveals a patterned progression within both nature and culture. Whenever productive activity is involved, especially creative activity engaged voluntarily, in a 'free market', the Matthew principle holds firm. A small number of musicians have created the vast majority of commercially successful musical hits; a small number of athletes have won the lion's share of professional accolades; a small number of scientific papers are cited much more than all the rest combined. These examples could continue endlessly in practically every domain of human productive activity. Yet it cannot be explained away as a product of mere socioeconomic factors, because it can even be observed in the function of natural ecosystems and the formation of galaxies and solar systems. It is not a moral dictum spoken by Christ incarnate, then, but a revelation of how Cosmic Logic (Logos) unfolds. This revelation is disappointing, on the 'left hand' (subconscious), because it speaks of paths which must necessarily diverge, but it should also be uplifting, on the 'right hand' (conscious), because it speaks to the concrete overlap between human and Divine creative activity. In the words of Barfield, it speaks to how, "
in the course of the earth's history, something like a Divine Word has been gradually clothing itself with the humanity it first gradually created - so that what was first spoken by God may eventually be respoken by man."



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Creative activity, whether in economics, science, art, education, or any other field, always requires thinking. In the experience of most people, it requires either intellectual cognition (prosaic thinking) or what Samuel Taylor Coleridge referred to as 'secondary imagination' (poetic thinking). It is our thinking which integrates our individual existence into the Cosmic whole by perceiving the laws, principles, and archetypes (the spirit) which underlies the fragmented sense-phenomena of the world. What the Matthew principle points to, then, is how optimal thinking-choices lead to cycles of positive feedback and suboptimal thinking-choices lead to cycles of negative feedback. Put another way, our optimal and suboptimal decisions will compound over time, just like interest compounds on a debt balance. That dynamic is deeply related to the fact that we will experience more pain from a loss than we will experience pleasure from a gain. For our purposes here, we will define "optimal" as those thinking-choices which integrate more spheres of meaning in various domains of life, and "suboptimal" as those which leave them relatively more fragmented from each other. The former stimulates the positive reinforcement of thinking-pleasure and the latter disproportionately stimulates the negative reinforcement of thinking-pain.

When novice filmmakers perceive the meaningful commonalities between music and narrative storytelling, for example, they are more likely to weave a coherent and richly meaningful experience for their viewers. That, in turn, will mean more people view their content, their advertising share increases, and more funding opportunities are made available for them to continue their creative activity. Their confidence, motivation, and inspiration is boosted, fueling further thinking-advances. On the flip side, the novice filmmaker who simply mirrors previous works, and fails to thoughtfully integrate diverse spheres of meaning, will quickly find opportunities being foreclosed upon. He will find it harder and harder to acquire new funding for his projects. After a short while, he will experience negative emotions which feed off of each other and decrease his confidence, motivation, and inspiration. The paths of these two novice filmmakers will become increasingly more divergent, creating an evolutionary chasm which is quite large. Their paths will also feed into the evolutionary outcomes of many other people they are coming into contact with in their pursuits. Indeed, whether we like it or not - whether we consider it 'fair' or not - "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer"  through these positive and negative feedback loops within the physical plane.



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We can now observe, then, that the Matthew divergence is truly a 'principle' of our Cosmic evolutionary progression at many different temporal scales. If we pay close attention, then we will also perceive ourselves going through these rhythmic cycles of positive and negative thinking-feedback in our own careers and personal lives; perhaps even in our monthly, weekly, and daily experiences. Every day we experience a descent into the trenches of the material world when we awaken from dreams and sleep, moving from rich and fluid imagery to dim and rigid sense-perceptions. We must then engage these perceptions in 'battle' with our thoughts as the day unfolds, so as to make sense of them at higher levels of meaningful integration. At the same time, we are constantly awakening from a hazy dream-consciousness into the clarity of waking ego-consciousness. Every new day brings with it a resurrection into more meaningful spheres of integrated meaning, embedding the experiences from all of our previous days within itself. The Kingdom of Heaven manifests for us more and more as we become more and more conscious of this evolutionary progression that we are participating in. It is through this spiritual evolution that the 'opposites' represented below are gradually united in our experience; that the spiritual awakens to itself from within the physical; that our qualitative thinking makes Heaven out of hell.


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h/t Cleric


The Matthew principle points us towards the fundamental asymmetry of evolution, i.e. how the horizontal dualities above can only be united through our conscious ascension on the vertical axis. A living organism which gains a thinking-selection advantage over other organisms in its thought-environment is more likely to leverage that advantage into further ones. Unlike the strictly physical (spatial) evolutionary model, however, the spiritual (durational) evolutionary understanding recognizes that the selection forces are not entirely arbitrary or external to us. It is our own thinking activity and moral orientation, nested hierarchically within the archetypal durations of even higher activity and ideals, which selects for our evolutionary outcomes. When that activity and those ideals are mostly subconscious, we call the outcomes "unfair", and when they are mostly conscious, we call them "fair". As Carl Jung observed, "
until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate." That is the message we also find coursing through the veins of Western scripture; the message that every individual is responsible for the 'sins of the world', i.e. the lack of qualitative knowledge about its spiritual relations, and must bear his or her own Cross through the power of the Thinking-Spirit as they tread in the footsteps of Christ, ascending to the summit of Golgotha.

When one person kills another in a state of relative 'unconsciousness' - for ex., when intoxicated or in the heat of rage - as opposed to killing with calculated premeditation, we say that the former has less culpability. We still think, however, that he is deserving of some punishment. That reflects our intuition that human individuals have increasingly gained the capacity to make the subconscious more conscious. When we remain thinking in a qualitative manner, there is always the possibility of repentance and redemption from the negative feedback loops into evolutionary dead-ends. Keep in mind that "death", in this ideal evolutionary understanding, is an image of unconsciousness. We don't vanish from existence when we physically die, or go off into another spatial realm of 'heaven' or 'hell', but rather our lawful evolution continues on between death and rebirth. This ideal evolution cannot proceed if we are no longer thinking, i.e. if we have squandered the capacity to remain conscious within the post-death duration. The process of reincarnation is generally shunned by intellectual theology, but it is the only logical option to make sense of how all souls participate in the evolutionary Christ-impulse, i.e. the making of what is unconscious more conscious, regardless of when or where they were born in any particular incarnation.

The phantom layer of abstract intellectual cognitions, however, works to exclude souls from the evolutionary impulse. It imprisons us within entirely circular loops of reasoning, with each abstract concept only pointing to another equally abstract concept or back at itself. Some of the loops have larger circumferences than others, i.e. some intellectual models have been spread out more horizontally, giving us the illusion of new meaning, but they all eventually circle back to the same thought-point at which they started. They all 'close the loop' at some point, so no truly novel or overarching meanings can be incorporated within their circular logic. These
infernal loops are actually necessitated by any philosophy which denies, implicitly or explicitly, the capacity of our thinking activity to rise up and meet fundamental truths of existence. Given that so many modern philosophies have made exactly that denial, we have great cause for concern going forward. Below is an infernal loop which, despite appearing so simple and originating in the 18th century, still captures the most prevalent epistemic worldview in Western culture. To seek holistic understanding, rather than unhelpful judgment, we should try to penetrate into the flow of the abstract argument with our thinking; to sense how one thought leads to another, then another, then another, and to the conclusion out of strict necessity.


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On the last leg of the loop, it is permanently sealed and there is no escaping the loop through more abstract concepts, assuming they are consistent with the ones already present. No matter how much more complex the conceptual argument becomes, it will always lead back to the conclusion - "
I can only experience my own localized consciousness (permanently)". This flowchart is not exhaustively accounting for the actual concepts invoked in the arguments, but rather it is distilling the core philosophical concepts into their essential meanings so we can more easily perceive how the thought-progression unfolds. Going from particularized concepts on the surface of a worldview to their deeper layers of meaning is a reliable way to begin extricating ourselves from the horizontal flow and gain a higher vantage point on it. We are seeking to sympathize deeply with the pattern of thinking, not by adopting the pattern for ourselves (we already have this dualistic habit of thinking), but the exact opposite. We can only begin to understand a flow pattern of thinking activity after we have managed to rise above that flow to some extent. We cannot understand the experience of "hotness" until we have experienced a few varying degrees of temperature; likewise, we cannot understand infernal thinking loops until we have experienced their functioning across several worldviews.

From this foundational Kantian infernal loop we observed above, many other ones emerged as derivatives in the 19th and 20th centuries. There is the
Marxian loop, which concludes that our own ideas are only reflections of our socioeconomic status at any given time. Instead of the physical (material) acting as a reflection of the spiritual (meaningful), the relationship is inverted. The strict necessity of material relations is given priority as the determining factor of our evolution, because the spiritual element (qualitative thinking) has been excluded from the loop. Then there is the Freudian loop, which concludes human civilization and all its 'discontents' can be reduced to unconscious sexual desires. These are considerd base physical desires which we cannot ever get to the bottom of via thinking and, therefore, we cannot understand more deeply so that they can be transfigured into their higher meaningful essence. We also have the Nietzschean loop, which is more nuanced, but has been adopted by many thinkers as a reduction of human ideals, such as moral meaning, to a "will-to-power" within the physical plane. There is also the 'post-structural' linguistic loop, which concludes all word-symbols are merely pointing to other word-symbols with no deeper layers of meaning discernible to our systematic thinking, i.e. there can be no archetypal 'meta-narratives' of the sort Dante envisioned in his Divine Comedy


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It should be clear that the concepts in these loops are not fundamentally "wrong", but rather they are incomplete because they remain within a flattened and circular plane of thinking. What is common to all such loops? They all lethally undermine the central role and efficacy of our own thinking activity . Moreover, they all force the person engaged in the loop to rely on increasingly more abstract concepts as they seek more understanding. The religious fundamentalist, for example, must perpetually generate doctrines and dogmas, with endless intellectual interpretations, to remain relevant in any spiritual conversation. That is because the other alternative - direct perceiving and knowing of what the doctrines are symbols for - has been excluded from the thought-loop. None of these infernal loops are logically necessary or warranted from our given experience. They are simply the consequence of an intellect which has subconsciously decided to stop reasoning through its experience whenever reaching its subconsciously desired conclusion. It is the software program repeating or terminating itself once it has cycled through its pre-programmed code. Below is a crude illustration of what a 'paradisiacal' loop could look like for the intellect which comes to understand itself deeply and thereby transcend its own strict necessity. It spirals from flattened conceptions to three- and four-dimensional imaginations of qualitative meaning, without forsaking any of the quantitative resolution gained by the intellect.


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When we remember that intellectual loops which present to us in a spatial way are actually loops of meaningful duration, it should become more evident why there is a more-than-metaphorical connection between circular infernal loops of the abstract intellect and the ceaseless torment Dante and others have envisioned within the rungs of 'Hell'. It is no coincidence that we all share a deep anxiety concerning the mechanistic routines of modern material existence. We dimly sense that we are stuck in our own version of the movie Groundhog's Day; that our existence cycles through an endless loop of
flattened meaning. No matter what we do or how we do it, the Newtonian clock resets and we cycle through the same basic meaningful experiences once again. How much novelty do we actually sense in the meaning of our experience as our adult life unfolds from day to day; as we wake up, brush our teeth, drink our coffee, check our phones and computers, commute to school or work (or, increasingly, study and work from home), eat our lunch, finish our classes or work, eat our dinner, hit the gym (maybe), watch our favorite TV shows, periodically check our social media throughout the whole process, and eventually get to sleep? Are we truly alive or are we merely simulating abstract conceptions of "life" with our intellect?



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This concern over the
mechanization of life really took shape in the early to mid-19th century, in thinkers such as Goethe, Emerson, Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Nietzsche, and others, and it has become increasingly more intense ever since. In the last few decades, especially, we have seen the explosion of cultural commentaries on this 'rat race' of our mechanized existence, but very few commentaries on why it exists and even fewer on what concrete steps we can take to move beyond it. There is nothing wrong with set routines, per se, but there is also nothing which precludes the mining of novel meaning from those routines except our own resistance to more imaginative thinking which spirals upwards. The lack of novel experience is not a fixed law of reality, but a natural consequence of our own intellectual thinking-choices which negatively feedback into each other and spiral downwards at an accelerated pace. Even more worrisome is that, as the intellectual loops grow more complex to create the illusion of novel experience and meaning, the actual meaningful aspect of the loop appears to be growing smaller. It is as if we are approaching a 'singularity' when we will repeat a single moment of meaningful existence - perhaps a painful and dreadful moment - for all eternity.





We can't dismiss these imaginations of modern cinema as mere 'fancy' any more than we can dismiss Dante's vision of the Infernal realms. The motive behind the horror is often to sell more content, but these imaginative stories have a life of their own which extends well beyond the localized interests of whomever manifested it in the world. Owen Barfield reminded us that, "
when appraising the aberrations of the formally representational arts... in so far as they are genuine, they are genuine because the artist has in some way or other experienced the world he represents." By 'formally representational', Barfield is referencing those artistic creations which mostly mirrored the quantitative forms of outer appearances. Artistic endeavors which focus on the nature of Time-experience are practically 'non-representational' in this sense. They are dealing with a topic that it only became possible to explore deeply in the last 120 odd years. The Time Machine, written by H.G. Wells in 1895, is considered to be the original artistic treatment in that connection. The intellectual and imaginative obsession with 'time-travel' has only intensified since then. If someone were to ask us, "what would you consider to be the experience of Hell?", then the clip above would rank quite high on our list. Total unconsciousness would be preferable, because at least then we would no longer know how dreadful our fate had become. 



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Our greatest hope, however, is in the fact that our imaginative awareness of what the Infernal realms are, in their durational essence, takes us a major step down the progressive evolutionary path leading away from the dreadful experience of those same realms. This awareness reflects the spiritual seed of our Thinking-organism which houses the potential of our entire future becoming; our evolving away from the forces of darkness, unconsciousness, fragmentation, and death. The further we evolve by nourishing that seed within us, with deep and disciplined thought, the more unlikely it becomes that our Thinking-organism will succumb to the forces of devolution. The poor can only become poorer in the physical (spatial) world with limited material resources, i.e. in a zero-sum game. Within the higher meaningful realms of the spiritual plane, these resources are no longer a limiting factor for the beings who consciously participate and cooperate to make the Cosmic evolution possible. In these realms, there is only the poor in Spirit becoming more rich in Spirit, if they so choose. There are beings who consciously ascend from the Inferno of the physical plane to the Purgatorio and Paradiso of the higher spiritual realms consisting in imaginations, inspirations, and intuitions. By accessing these realms of ideation, "...we all, with unveiled faces, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory."

I must admit, my desire to lessen the fright of our unfolding Apocalypse played no small part in my motivation to write this essay.  As always, we can only confront our terrors, whether they are localized or Cosmic ones, by knowing them deeply. This path of qualitative knowledge will only become as complicated as we ourselves make it. If we find it difficult to imagine right now, then it is only because we have made few, if any, genuine attempts to imagine it. Once we seek first the Kingdom of God in righteousness, we ascend along the 'low-entropy gradient' of the qualitative Sun and the hyper-complex phenomena which surround us - our own living organism most of all - become more simple to understand. Our understanding then compounds in ever-greater proportion with our good will and qualitative thinking effort. It becomes a boon not only to our own localized interests, but to the collective interests of all 'idea-beings' who evolve the Cosmic organism. We even learn to love our 'enemies' who are currently working towards our devolution; to one day redeem them from their own descent into the abyss of unconsciousness. That is when we come to realize the deeper significance of the doctrine, Imatatio Christi. It is no longer an intellectual dogma for us, but instead it becomes a reality to be experienced and embraced in full consciousness.


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This was a very helpful reading, Ashvin, thank you!
What was helpful in particular is your ability to decipher the overarching ideas that guide a variety of phenomena, showing precisely how the idea unfold into those phenomena. Through this ideal network you build one can take various standpoints - Hell for example - and from that perspective, one can look back at center and become more and more familiar with it.
Trying to think of falling without an object, the idea that comes is, a wrinkling of space-time. Imagining a curved, reticulated environment, as typically pictured in the standard blog illustration of general relativity, falling would be an unsyncing, a scratch in the smooth, reticulated space-time surface. As an acceleration/deceleration, or distortion/wrinkle in the reticulum, fall feels like the opposite of stagnation, not like the opposite of ascension, with which it shares the same 'wrinkled quality'. In that sense, there wouldn't be any pre-identified directions of the fall. If we deprive the idea of fall from that of gravity, then fall can be circular, as in an infernal loop, or as in spiraling up, as involution or as evolution. Along this lines, I would maybe see two concepts in ‘fall’. Its core-concept is non-stagnation, to which we add here a negative quality of Hell, loss, intellectual rigidity, involution, at the surface-level of the specific phenomenon. But ascent and spiraling up share the same core-concept with fall.


Coming to the Matthew principle, it strikes me that it sounds very close to what is known in secular culture as the Pareto principle. Stating that, for many outcomes, roughly 80% of consequences come from 20% of causes, it sounds to me like a modern rationalization of the Matthew principle. As noted here, the principle also tends to hold within the tails of the distribution. As a basic example, if I have 100 clients and 20 of them give me 80% of my income, chances are it holds roughly true that, out of those 20 clients, about four are generating 80% of that 80% of the income. So there is a sort of nested quality of the principle, as an indication of its robust lawfulness. If this reflects an inherent general quality of the Matthew principle, applied to the infernal loops of intellect and the possibility of freely escape them through imaginative thinking, this would be in alignment with what Cleric wrote in the T-C spectrum essay, that there is no in-principle limit to the achievable extent of knowledge of the higher worlds.


For me the difficulty of grasping this principle and how it operates is this: at one level - the aggregate level, would the economist say, or can we say the cosmic order level - it’s static and rigid, while at the individual level - it’s more fluid, subject to individual will. In relation to falling into the infernal loops of intellect, for example, the principle speaks of a stable divergence between a majority of imaginative ideas being thought by a minority of individuals, while at the individual level, the choice remains open as to which side of the scale one wants to bring their thoughts to, the bare intellectual or the imaginative. From here, the difficulty is, how to understand that the individual is implanted in such a cultural dynamic, or law (Matthew principle), where personal choice is free, but also not free? In a sense the materialists, by being such in their thinking, are enabling someone else’s connection to the divine and, vice versa, the one who endeavors to extract themselves from the grips of the intellectual loops and to find that connection, is ‘stepping on one spot on the right side of the scale’. Now others are 'guaranteed' to dwell in Inferno, according to the Matthew principle. Why need there be such preordained rule where one’s freedom on the path is conditioned by everyone else’s freedom? And is it possible to imagine the overcoming of such a law, in a future time when everyone will move in one direction, univocally?


Looking at it from the perspective of Fall, the question becomes: what is the meaning of these time scratches? Is this momentary time-smashing, or time-looseness impressed by the Matthew principle the reason itself and the foundation itself of multiplicity? It seems to me that the paths of divergence come out of a necessary principle of multiplicity, or inception of multiplicity itself. The principle allows for a critical mass to form asymmetrically, as a breakthrough, so that an imbalance can unfold, and through it, the impulse to restore equilibrium. In this perspective, is the Matthew principle the endogenous principle of evolution itself?
Because no singularity, nothing individual can emerge of perfect sameness and equality. Perfect clones of anything, in space, cannot constitute any real multiplicity. Exact sameness sounds to me as a deceptive non-concept. And multiplicity has to be maintained to an extent, so there is some outward stability to the imbalance, granted by the Matthew principle, or its intellectualized/modelized modern version, the Pareto principle. In other words, variance around the Center is necessary, and there has to be stability in that variance, but is this only up to a point?


Hence my question: what is the even higher principle, overarching and encompassing the Matthew principle from above, that allows for both its existence and its overtaking? Is Love that principle? If it is, can we say that the hierarchy of organizing principles of reality goes from Freedom, to Multiplicity, to Love? Freedom is grounded in multiplicity and is fully time-space bound. Multiplicity is bound to time-space only in its expressions, but at its roots it seems directly grounded in the only unifying principle of all - Love. Freedom contains humanity, Multiplicity contains Hell and all polarities and dynamics, and Love enncompasses everything. What Love contains beyond the realms of the lower principles of Freedom and Multiplicity is the power to bring everything back together, making up for all the falls without object, the time scratches, the evil or redemptive spirals of ascent or descent, up or down or sideways across all the many loops - the intellectual, the egoic, the sensory - and have/be everything in eternal unity. Can we say something like that?
This is the goal towards which the sixth age of humanity will strive: the popularization of occult truth on a wide scale. That's the mission of this age and the society that unites spiritually has the task of bringing this occult truth to life everywhere and applying it directly. That's exactly what our age is missing.
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AshvinP
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Re: (Medium-Long) Infernal Loops of the Abstract Intellect

Post by AshvinP »

Federica wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 9:11 am This was a very helpful reading, Ashvin, thank you!
What was helpful in particular is your ability to decipher the overarching ideas that guide a variety of phenomena, showing precisely how the idea unfold into those phenomena. Through this ideal network you build one can take various standpoints - Hell for example - and from that perspective, one can look back at center and become more and more familiar with it.
Trying to think of falling without an object, the idea that comes is, a wrinkling of space-time. Imagining a curved, reticulated environment, as typically pictured in the standard blog illustration of general relativity, falling would be an unsyncing, a scratch in the smooth, reticulated space-time surface. As an acceleration/deceleration, or distortion/wrinkle in the reticulum, fall feels like the opposite of stagnation, not like the opposite of ascension, with which it shares the same 'wrinkled quality'. In that sense, there wouldn't be any pre-identified directions of the fall. If we deprive the idea of fall from that of gravity, then fall can be circular, as in an infernal loop, or as in spiraling up, as involution or as evolution. Along this lines, I would maybe see two concepts in ‘fall’. Its core-concept is non-stagnation, to which we add here a negative quality of Hell, loss, intellectual rigidity, involution, at the surface-level of the specific phenomenon. But ascent and spiraling up share the same core-concept with fall.


Coming to the Matthew principle, it strikes me that it sounds very close to what is known in secular culture as the Pareto principle. Stating that, for many outcomes, roughly 80% of consequences come from 20% of causes, it sounds to me like a modern rationalization of the Matthew principle. As noted here, the principle also tends to hold within the tails of the distribution. As a basic example, if I have 100 clients and 20 of them give me 80% of my income, chances are it holds roughly true that, out of those 20 clients, about four are generating 80% of that 80% of the income. So there is a sort of nested quality of the principle, as an indication of its robust lawfulness. If this reflects an inherent general quality of the Matthew principle, applied to the infernal loops of intellect and the possibility of freely escape them through imaginative thinking, this would be in alignment with what Cleric wrote in the T-C spectrum essay, that there is no in-principle limit to the achievable extent of knowledge of the higher worlds.


For me the difficulty of grasping this principle and how it operates is this: at one level - the aggregate level, would the economist say, or can we say the cosmic order level - it’s static and rigid, while at the individual level - it’s more fluid, subject to individual will. In relation to falling into the infernal loops of intellect, for example, the principle speaks of a stable divergence between a majority of imaginative ideas being thought by a minority of individuals, while at the individual level, the choice remains open as to which side of the scale one wants to bring their thoughts to, the bare intellectual or the imaginative. From here, the difficulty is, how to understand that the individual is implanted in such a cultural dynamic, or law (Matthew principle), where personal choice is free, but also not free? In a sense the materialists, by being such in their thinking, are enabling someone else’s connection to the divine and, vice versa, the one who endeavors to extract themselves from the grips of the intellectual loops and to find that connection, is ‘stepping on one spot on the right side of the scale’. Now others are 'guaranteed' to dwell in Inferno, according to the Matthew principle. Why need there be such preordained rule where one’s freedom on the path is conditioned by everyone else’s freedom? And is it possible to imagine the overcoming of such a law, in a future time when everyone will move in one direction, univocally?


Looking at it from the perspective of Fall, the question becomes: what is the meaning of these time scratches? Is this momentary time-smashing, or time-looseness impressed by the Matthew principle the reason itself and the foundation itself of multiplicity? It seems to me that the paths of divergence come out of a necessary principle of multiplicity, or inception of multiplicity itself. The principle allows for a critical mass to form asymmetrically, as a breakthrough, so that an imbalance can unfold, and through it, the impulse to restore equilibrium. In this perspective, is the Matthew principle the endogenous principle of evolution itself?
Because no singularity, nothing individual can emerge of perfect sameness and equality. Perfect clones of anything, in space, cannot constitute any real multiplicity. Exact sameness sounds to me as a deceptive non-concept. And multiplicity has to be maintained to an extent, so there is some outward stability to the imbalance, granted by the Matthew principle, or its intellectualized/modelized modern version, the Pareto principle. In other words, variance around the Center is necessary, and there has to be stability in that variance, but is this only up to a point?

Thanks for the thorough reading and great feedback, Federica.

Yes I think you are right that the Matthew principle is reflecting the deeper spiritual meaning of the Pareto principle. 

"Why need there be such preordained rule where one’s freedom on the path is conditioned by everyone else’s freedom? And is it possible to imagine the overcoming of such a law, in a future time when everyone will move in one direction, univocally?"

That is a great question and attempts to answer it can easily boggle the mind, as it forces us to escape the linear arrow of time. In short, I would answer 'yes', but the 'law' will be overcome only from the higher, more integrated perspective. To a certain extent, we will eventually become responsible for administering the law for lower life waves going through their human development, as higher beings are now administering it for us. This doesn't mean they are overriding our inner freedom, because they do not interfere in the willing of how we think. Nevertheless, through the archetypal structure of the Cosmic hysteresis, how we think, feel, and act invariably leads to differentiated streams of Karma and spiritual evolution, to threads of destiny in which 'the first shall be last and the last shall be first'. That is my broad-level resolution on the issue right now, at least.

I think you are absolutely correct to observe that one person's freedom, their evolution in general, is conditioned by everyone else's freedom in the evolutionary stream of their species. Perhaps even the evolutionary stream of all living beings, but we can limit it to humanity for now. We can better understand this if we remember how, at one time, humanity belonged to a group-soul or ego. Our physical bodies were like the particular fingers used as instruments of this group ego. There was no experience of death for the group ego as we experience it on the physical plane today, but more like losing a finger and regenerating a new one. This is still the case with the current animals, who have not evolved their individuated egos yet. So what has happened to the human group soul or ego?

It is still there in higher planes of consciousness. We are still members of this unified organism, only we have individuated so that we may gain full consciousness of how we are related to all other members and thereby attain harmonious functioning with free, creative responsibility for world-creation. It's interesting to contemplate the diverse life experiences of humanity today. When it is Winter for people in the Northern hemisphere, it is Summer for those in the Southern. When it is morning for people in one time zone, it is afternoon, evening, night, for people in others. Some people, at varying locations and elevations, live in closer connection with the soil, some with water, some with air. People live shorter or longer physical lives, with varying worldviews, temperaments, careers, etc. So when we think of all these unfolding experiences as constituting an organic Whole, which is more than simply the sum of its parts (because the Whole is a priori to the parts), then we have a better idea of the human group-soul. Although we would need to also factor in the many iterations of life between death and rebirth to get a more complete image of the higher Self.

Steiner often remarks that the evolutionary lesson of our current and next epoch is to learn that no individual human can advance their own interest, their own ascent into higher worlds, without also advancing the interests of the Whole, i.e. without genuine spiritual Love. The next epoch will correspond to the Church of Philadelphia in the Book of Revelation, which means 'brotherly love'. It is a dawning remembrance of who we really are in our higher spiritual essence, so that those more advanced, for whatever Karmic reasons, also become more responsible for raising others up with them. This is the true 'missionary work' of the Christ-centered life which will unfold over thousands of years, but has already been planted as a seed which is beginning to grow within the human soul. 

Steiner wrote:On the one hand we can thank the descent into matter for our consciousness of self within our physical bodily nature. On the other hand, we thank the Christ event for our ability to ascend with the achievements of the physical world. We thank the Christ principle for our ability to ascend to universal brotherly love, to the universal love of humanity, since we will again unite in groups with love for one another.

If we look back to the time of the original group souls of Atlantis and then into the future we see these four group souls appearing again. The lamb will stand in the middle as a sign for the love that will unite people who will then be living in a bodily nature that is less dense.

But this state must be prepared today through the setting aside of a small group that will carry brotherly love into the future. Therefore, a stream has arisen in our time that will lead to brotherly love through real spiritual knowledge. Humankind will not attain brotherly love through preaching but rather through knowledge. Preachers who constantly speak of love achieve nothing. But if people are given wisdom, knowledge of evolution, in such a way that it becomes life in the soul, then humanity will arrive at love. The soul can attain this when it is warmed by wisdom. Then it can radiate love.

For this reason the masters of wisdom and harmony of feelings have formed this stream for the raying forth of love into humanity and for the influx of wisdom into humanity. 
Federica wrote:Hence my question: what is the even higher principle, overarching and encompassing the Matthew principle from above, that allows for both its existence and its overtaking? Is Love that principle? If it is, can we say that the hierarchy of organizing principles of reality goes from Freedom, to Multiplicity, to Love? Freedom is grounded in multiplicity and is fully time-space bound. Multiplicity is bound to time-space only in its expressions, but at its roots it seems directly grounded in the only unifying principle of all - Love. Freedom contains humanity, Multiplicity contains Hell and all polarities and dynamics, and Love enncompasses everything. What Love contains beyond the realms of the lower principles of Freedom and Multiplicity is the power to bring everything back together, making up for all the falls without object, the time scratches, the evil or redemptive spirals of ascent or descent, up or down or sideways across all the many loops - the intellectual, the egoic, the sensory - and have/be everything in eternal unity. Can we say something like that?

When we get to this scale of Cosmic dynamics, there are really infinite ways to validly conceptualize the relations. There are no hard boundaries between Love, Wisdom, Freedom, Truth, etc.. They are always flowing into one another through the fractal, nonlinear iterations of Cosmic metamorphoses. A unity can be a multiplicity from one perspective which can be a higher unity from another, and so on. From our current human perspective, I would say everything you wrote is a valid characterization. We should just be cautious of getting too carried away with trying to 'decode' the whole structure in this way. It's like higher imaginations and inspirations are flowing into our consciousness, but the intellectual ego with its conceptual activity is also remaining firm and acting as a lid, preventing them from releasing their energy to expand our lower self. The internal pressure can then build up to a dangerous degree. This eventually ends up somewhere similar to the rational infernal loops, perhaps even insanity.

I am glad you are reading these old essays and getting value from them, but I personally feel that sometimes I was too ambitious, in an unjustified way, with some of the connections drawn and conclusions made. Not that they were invalid, per se, but that it may have been more wise for me to refrain from making such judgments about the deepest moral laws of the Cosmos at the time. The other issue is that, in my experience, the longer we employ only the intellectual ego to tackle these deepest Cosmic ideas, the more self-satisfied we become with the results attained. We start to lose the feeling of gratitude for the Wisdom bestowed upon us, and it becomes more a matter of pride in how deep we have penetrated with the intellect. At least that has been an issue for me. In that connection, I want to share another passage from Steiner.

The student learns to recognise that if he wishes to arrive at an opinion with which he is himself able to agree, he must live for some while with certain ideas which he has acquired, so that his own etheric body can come to an understanding with them. He learns that he must wait before he can arrive at a certain opinion. Only then does he realise the great significance of the words: ‘Let what is in the soul mature.’ He really becomes more and more modest. But this ‘becoming modest’ is a very special matter, because it is not always possible to hold the balance between being obliged to form an opinion and being able to wait for maturity to have an opinion upon a subject, though delusion about these things is possible to a high degree, and because there is really nothing but life itself which can explain these things. A philosopher may dispute with a person who has reached a certain degree of esoteric development concerning some cosmic mystery, or cosmic law; if the philosopher can only form philosophic opinion he will believe himself necessarily in the right concerning the matter, and we can understand that he must have this belief; but the other person will know quite well that the question cannot be decided by the capacity for judgment possessed by the philosopher. For he knows that in former times he also used the conceptions upon which the philosopher bases his opinion, but allowed them to mature within him, which process made it possible for him to have an opinion on the subject; he knows that he has lived with it, thereby making himself ripe enough to form the opinion which he now pronounces at a higher stage of maturity. 
...
Indeed, he gradually notices a certain opposition arise in his soul between the way he formerly judged and the way he now judges after having attained a certain maturity in this particular matter; and he notices that the opinion he formed in the past and the opinion he now holds confront each other like two powers, and he then notices in himself a certain inner mobility of the temporal within him; he notices that the earlier must be overcome by the later. This is the dawn in the consciousness of a certain feeling for time, which arises from the presence of inner conflicts, coming into existence through a certain opposition between the later and the earlier. It is absolutely necessary to acquire this inner feeling, this inner perception of time, for we must remember that we can only learn to experience the etheric when we acquire an inner idea of time. This develops into our always having the feeling that the earlier originates in ourselves, in our judgment, in our knowledge; but that the later flows into us, as it were, streams towards us, is vouchsafed to us. More and more clearly comes the feeling of what was described in the last lecture, viz., that the cleverness which springs from oneself must be separated from the wisdom which is acquired by surrender to the stream flowing towards one from the future. To feel ourselves being filled by thoughts, in contradistinction to our former experiences of consciously forming the thoughts ourselves — this shows progress. When the student learns more and more to feel that he no longer forms thoughts, but that the thoughts think themselves in him — when he has this feeling it is a sign that his etheric body is gradually developing the necessary inner feeling of time.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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Re: (Medium-Long) Infernal Loops of the Abstract Intellect

Post by Federica »

AshvinP wrote: Mon Oct 17, 2022 1:26 am


Thanks for the thorough reading and great feedback, Federica.

Yes I think you are right that the Matthew principle is reflecting the deeper spiritual meaning of the Pareto principle. 

"Why need there be such preordained rule where one’s freedom on the path is conditioned by everyone else’s freedom? And is it possible to imagine the overcoming of such a law, in a future time when everyone will move in one direction, univocally?"

That is a great question and attempts to answer it can easily boggle the mind, as it forces us to escape the linear arrow of time. In short, I would answer 'yes', but the 'law' will be overcome only from the higher, more integrated perspective. To a certain extent, we will eventually become responsible for administering the law for lower life waves going through their human development, as higher beings are now administering it for us. This doesn't mean they are overriding our inner freedom, because they do not interfere in the willing of how we think. Nevertheless, through the archetypal structure of the Cosmic hysteresis, how we think, feel, and act invariably leads to differentiated streams of Karma and spiritual evolution, to threads of destiny in which 'the first shall be last and the last shall be first'. That is my broad-level resolution on the issue right now, at least.

I think you are absolutely correct to observe that one person's freedom, their evolution in general, is conditioned by everyone else's freedom in the evolutionary stream of their species. Perhaps even the evolutionary stream of all living beings, but we can limit it to humanity for now. We can better understand this if we remember how, at one time, humanity belonged to a group-soul or ego. Our physical bodies were like the particular fingers used as instruments of this group ego. There was no experience of death for the group ego as we experience it on the physical plane today, but more like losing a finger and regenerating a new one. This is still the case with the current animals, who have not evolved their individuated egos yet. So what has happened to the human group soul or ego?

It is still there in higher planes of consciousness. We are still members of this unified organism, only we have individuated so that we may gain full consciousness of how we are related to all other members and thereby attain harmonious functioning with free, creative responsibility for world-creation. It's interesting to contemplate the diverse life experiences of humanity today. When it is Winter for people in the Northern hemisphere, it is Summer for those in the Southern. When it is morning for people in one time zone, it is afternoon, evening, night, for people in others. Some people, at varying locations and elevations, live in closer connection with the soil, some with water, some with air. People live shorter or longer physical lives, with varying worldviews, temperaments, careers, etc. So when we think of all these unfolding experiences as constituting an organic Whole, which is more than simply the sum of its parts (because the Whole is a priori to the parts), then we have a better idea of the human group-soul. Although we would need to also factor in the many iterations of life between death and rebirth to get a more complete image of the higher Self.

Steiner often remarks that the evolutionary lesson of our current and next epoch is to learn that no individual human can advance their own interest, their own ascent into higher worlds, without also advancing the interests of the Whole, i.e. without genuine spiritual Love. The next epoch will correspond to the Church of Philadelphia in the Book of Revelation, which means 'brotherly love'. It is a dawning remembrance of who we really are in our higher spiritual essence, so that those more advanced, for whatever Karmic reasons, also become more responsible for raising others up with them. This is the true 'missionary work' of the Christ-centered life which will unfold over thousands of years, but has already been planted as a seed which is beginning to grow within the human soul. 

Steiner wrote:On the one hand we can thank the descent into matter for our consciousness of self within our physical bodily nature. On the other hand, we thank the Christ event for our ability to ascend with the achievements of the physical world. We thank the Christ principle for our ability to ascend to universal brotherly love, to the universal love of humanity, since we will again unite in groups with love for one another.

If we look back to the time of the original group souls of Atlantis and then into the future we see these four group souls appearing again. The lamb will stand in the middle as a sign for the love that will unite people who will then be living in a bodily nature that is less dense.

But this state must be prepared today through the setting aside of a small group that will carry brotherly love into the future. Therefore, a stream has arisen in our time that will lead to brotherly love through real spiritual knowledge. Humankind will not attain brotherly love through preaching but rather through knowledge. Preachers who constantly speak of love achieve nothing. But if people are given wisdom, knowledge of evolution, in such a way that it becomes life in the soul, then humanity will arrive at love. The soul can attain this when it is warmed by wisdom. Then it can radiate love.

For this reason the masters of wisdom and harmony of feelings have formed this stream for the raying forth of love into humanity and for the influx of wisdom into humanity. 

When we get to this scale of Cosmic dynamics, there are really infinite ways to validly conceptualize the relations. There are no hard boundaries between Love, Wisdom, Freedom, Truth, etc.. They are always flowing into one another through the fractal, nonlinear iterations of Cosmic metamorphoses. A unity can be a multiplicity from one perspective which can be a higher unity from another, and so on. From our current human perspective, I would say everything you wrote is a valid characterization. We should just be cautious of getting too carried away with trying to 'decode' the whole structure in this way. It's like higher imaginations and inspirations are flowing into our consciousness, but the intellectual ego with its conceptual activity is also remaining firm and acting as a lid, preventing them from releasing their energy to expand our lower self. The internal pressure can then build up to a dangerous degree. This eventually ends up somewhere similar to the rational infernal loops, perhaps even insanity.

I am glad you are reading these old essays and getting value from them, but I personally feel that sometimes I was too ambitious, in an unjustified way, with some of the connections drawn and conclusions made. Not that they were invalid, per se, but that it may have been more wise for me to refrain from making such judgments about the deepest moral laws of the Cosmos at the time. The other issue is that, in my experience, the longer we employ only the intellectual ego to tackle these deepest Cosmic ideas, the more self-satisfied we become with the results attained. We start to lose the feeling of gratitude for the Wisdom bestowed upon us, and it becomes more a matter of pride in how deep we have penetrated with the intellect. At least that has been an issue for me. In that connection, I want to share another passage from Steiner.

The student learns to recognise that if he wishes to arrive at an opinion with which he is himself able to agree, he must live for some while with certain ideas which he has acquired, so that his own etheric body can come to an understanding with them. He learns that he must wait before he can arrive at a certain opinion. Only then does he realise the great significance of the words: ‘Let what is in the soul mature.’ He really becomes more and more modest. But this ‘becoming modest’ is a very special matter, because it is not always possible to hold the balance between being obliged to form an opinion and being able to wait for maturity to have an opinion upon a subject, though delusion about these things is possible to a high degree, and because there is really nothing but life itself which can explain these things. A philosopher may dispute with a person who has reached a certain degree of esoteric development concerning some cosmic mystery, or cosmic law; if the philosopher can only form philosophic opinion he will believe himself necessarily in the right concerning the matter, and we can understand that he must have this belief; but the other person will know quite well that the question cannot be decided by the capacity for judgment possessed by the philosopher. For he knows that in former times he also used the conceptions upon which the philosopher bases his opinion, but allowed them to mature within him, which process made it possible for him to have an opinion on the subject; he knows that he has lived with it, thereby making himself ripe enough to form the opinion which he now pronounces at a higher stage of maturity. 
...
Indeed, he gradually notices a certain opposition arise in his soul between the way he formerly judged and the way he now judges after having attained a certain maturity in this particular matter; and he notices that the opinion he formed in the past and the opinion he now holds confront each other like two powers, and he then notices in himself a certain inner mobility of the temporal within him; he notices that the earlier must be overcome by the later. This is the dawn in the consciousness of a certain feeling for time, which arises from the presence of inner conflicts, coming into existence through a certain opposition between the later and the earlier. It is absolutely necessary to acquire this inner feeling, this inner perception of time, for we must remember that we can only learn to experience the etheric when we acquire an inner idea of time. This develops into our always having the feeling that the earlier originates in ourselves, in our judgment, in our knowledge; but that the later flows into us, as it were, streams towards us, is vouchsafed to us. More and more clearly comes the feeling of what was described in the last lecture, viz., that the cleverness which springs from oneself must be separated from the wisdom which is acquired by surrender to the stream flowing towards one from the future. To feel ourselves being filled by thoughts, in contradistinction to our former experiences of consciously forming the thoughts ourselves — this shows progress. When the student learns more and more to feel that he no longer forms thoughts, but that the thoughts think themselves in him — when he has this feeling it is a sign that his etheric body is gradually developing the necessary inner feeling of time.

Thanks Ashvin, there are many new insights for me here!
Cosmic hysteresis and human group soul are the ones I feel most eager to explore going forward.

We should just be cautious of getting too carried away with trying to 'decode' the whole structure in this way. It's like higher imaginations and inspirations are flowing into our consciousness, but the intellectual ego with its conceptual activity is also remaining firm and acting as a lid, preventing them from releasing their energy to expand our lower self. The internal pressure can then build up to a dangerous degree. This eventually ends up somewhere similar to the rational infernal loops, perhaps even insanity.

Yes, I understand that. I will try not to go completely insane with the rational loops : ) More seriously, it has happened only a few times, while reflecting on the topics of this forum, that a thought has come while I was alert enough to say to myself “Hey, where is this coming from… It sounds too good to be coming from within my own reasoning” as if I was noticing a slightly different fabric, and also that the idea was coming all at once, like as a round whole, and not as a bit-by-bit elaboration, requiring a labor-intensive process. I don’t know what this observation is worth, and whether it is self-suggestion, I don’t want to pass it through a second level of processing. I am only mentioning it to say that this has not been the case when I was writing the comment to this essay. So there’s no doubt these were crude intellectual thoughts, with nothing intuitive, nothing even remotely artistic in them. The value I find for myself in reasoning this way is the exercising of a kind of intellectual fluidity, and curviness, and openness to surrender - as in wrapping one’s head around something, but in an open, not closed, embrace. That may not seem like much to a spiritually developed person, still, at this point, I see it as a valuable practice, that I additionally try to submit to the influence of feelings, more consciously now, since I read the passage I shared with Güney yesterday, where Steiner reminds the reader of the connection between cognition and the soul, from which cognition arises. So I get a feeling of improvement in some sense, as if I was proceeding more like surfing and less like wrestling, less and less going to battle brandishing my intellectual grids as sharp weapons so to speak, the sharper the better, and more and more going to meet the awesome revelations to come, with sort of waxy grids, and the softer the better. I am thankful for this slight, but for me significant adjustment. I clearly feel I have learned it here, through the discussions on this forum, and that I could hardly have learned it through a book, even a Steiner book.
This is the goal towards which the sixth age of humanity will strive: the popularization of occult truth on a wide scale. That's the mission of this age and the society that unites spiritually has the task of bringing this occult truth to life everywhere and applying it directly. That's exactly what our age is missing.
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AshvinP
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Re: (Medium-Long) Infernal Loops of the Abstract Intellect

Post by AshvinP »

Federica wrote: Mon Oct 17, 2022 6:17 pm Yes, I understand that. I will try not to go completely insane with the rational loops : ) More seriously, it has happened only a few times, while reflecting on the topics of this forum, that a thought has come while I was alert enough to say to myself “Hey, where is this coming from… It sounds too good to be coming from within my own reasoning” as if I was noticing a slightly different fabric, and also that the idea was coming all at once, like as a round whole, and not as a bit-by-bit elaboration, requiring a labor-intensive process. I don’t know what this observation is worth, and whether it is self-suggestion, I don’t want to pass it through a second level of processing. I am only mentioning it to say that this has not been the case when I was writing the comment to this essay. So there’s no doubt these were crude intellectual thoughts, with nothing intuitive, nothing even remotely artistic in them. The value I find for myself in reasoning this way is the exercising of a kind of intellectual fluidity, and curviness, and openness to surrender - as in wrapping one’s head around something, but in an open, not closed, embrace. That may not seem like much to a spiritually developed person, still, at this point, I see it as a valuable practice, that I additionally try to submit to the influence of feelings, more consciously now, since I read the passage I shared with Güney yesterday, where Steiner reminds the reader of the connection between cognition and the soul, from which cognition arises. So I get a feeling of improvement in some sense, as if I was proceeding more like surfing and less like wrestling, less and less going to battle brandishing my intellectual grids as sharp weapons so to speak, the sharper the better, and more and more going to meet the awesome revelations to come, with sort of waxy grids, and the softer the better. I am thankful for this slight, but for me significant adjustment. I clearly feel I have learned it here, through the discussions on this forum, and that I could hardly have learned it through a book, even a Steiner book.

Federica,

I wouldn't think it was self-suggestion, as I have experienced very similar things, or say that the comment here was devoid of intuition. The fact is, even though we normally feel like our intellectual thinking and concepts are bottom-up, it is also a top-down decoherence of the higher ideations. But we only become conscious of them after they are reflected by the physical organism, which makes it feel as bottom-up activity. And there is definitely value in our intellectual reasoning through these lofty spiritual ideas, especially when we are doing it to perfect the intellectual tool, to make it more open and fluid, as you say. Our intentions are always the most important factor.

It's great that you started to 'surf' the waves so soon. To be honest, I still feel like I am wrestling too much with these ideas and surfing too little. It also took me a long time of procrastination before I really opened up to serious meditative practice. And I think you are clearly a more intuitive-feeling type (with also a keen logical mind), which is exactly what I need to work on to deepen my meditative practice further. So I am also learning a lot from our discussions and grateful that you appeared on this forum!

"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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Federica
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Re: (Medium-Long) Infernal Loops of the Abstract Intellect

Post by Federica »

AshvinP wrote: Wed Oct 19, 2022 6:22 pm
Federica wrote: Mon Oct 17, 2022 6:17 pm Yes, I understand that. I will try not to go completely insane with the rational loops : ) More seriously, it has happened only a few times, while reflecting on the topics of this forum, that a thought has come while I was alert enough to say to myself “Hey, where is this coming from… It sounds too good to be coming from within my own reasoning” as if I was noticing a slightly different fabric, and also that the idea was coming all at once, like as a round whole, and not as a bit-by-bit elaboration, requiring a labor-intensive process. I don’t know what this observation is worth, and whether it is self-suggestion, I don’t want to pass it through a second level of processing. I am only mentioning it to say that this has not been the case when I was writing the comment to this essay. So there’s no doubt these were crude intellectual thoughts, with nothing intuitive, nothing even remotely artistic in them. The value I find for myself in reasoning this way is the exercising of a kind of intellectual fluidity, and curviness, and openness to surrender - as in wrapping one’s head around something, but in an open, not closed, embrace. That may not seem like much to a spiritually developed person, still, at this point, I see it as a valuable practice, that I additionally try to submit to the influence of feelings, more consciously now, since I read the passage I shared with Güney yesterday, where Steiner reminds the reader of the connection between cognition and the soul, from which cognition arises. So I get a feeling of improvement in some sense, as if I was proceeding more like surfing and less like wrestling, less and less going to battle brandishing my intellectual grids as sharp weapons so to speak, the sharper the better, and more and more going to meet the awesome revelations to come, with sort of waxy grids, and the softer the better. I am thankful for this slight, but for me significant adjustment. I clearly feel I have learned it here, through the discussions on this forum, and that I could hardly have learned it through a book, even a Steiner book.

Federica,

I wouldn't think it was self-suggestion, as I have experienced very similar things, or say that the comment here was devoid of intuition. The fact is, even though we normally feel like our intellectual thinking and concepts are bottom-up, it is also a top-down decoherence of the higher ideations. But we only become conscious of them after they are reflected by the physical organism, which makes it feel as bottom-up activity. And there is definitely value in our intellectual reasoning through these lofty spiritual ideas, especially when we are doing it to perfect the intellectual tool, to make it more open and fluid, as you say. Our intentions are always the most important factor.

It's great that you started to 'surf' the waves so soon. To be honest, I still feel like I am wrestling too much with these ideas and surfing too little. It also took me a long time of procrastination before I really opened up to serious meditative practice. And I think you are clearly a more intuitive-feeling type (with also a keen logical mind), which is exactly what I need to work on to deepen my meditative practice further. So I am also learning a lot from our discussions and grateful that you appeared on this forum!

"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."


This is heartwarming to read, Ashvin, thank you for your encouragement! And I’m happy if there's anything in my posts that helps keep the discussion going in any useful way, as I reflect the great ideas I am exposed to on this forum!
I understand what you say, that we are never alone in thinking, even the intellectual type. From my current reading, Knowledge of the higher worlds, I am developing the sense that the spiritual world is a shared medium with an inherent geometry that can only be worked out from within our own intention. In the physical world, the geometry feels external to our will. We can naively imagine that we are not actively retracing the landscape, because the density of sense 'sings the song of the siren' to distract thinking from itself. Still, in the final analysis, all we ever do is draft geometries. Sometimes we don’t notice, because thinking is hiding from itself in the sensory spectrum, and sometimes we don't dare to extend the drawing beyond its physical canvas, to break free from it into the spiritual.


On ‘surfing’ the intellectual waves, I’ve actually been reminded of the expression by an old personal development book called “Reality transurfing - The space of variations.” I didn’t read it, I remember it seemed somewhat dubious, but the title is suggestive and it stuck with me. To be honest, my surfing really isn't much more than being ok with possibly looking ridiculous with my speculations :)
That’s helpful, but it’s clearly also not with more of such surfing that I’d break through anything significant.
What got me here, won’t get me there, so to say, and I can hardly believe that you need more of this type of surfing! The task of writing an essay, for instance, only seems imaginable, let alone achievable, once a solid intimacy with a set of ideas has been developed, that should extend well beyond surfing the mindwaves. But I realize there’s always a path of progression and not resting on your laurels must be one reason of your ongoing development. Personally I feel beyond lucky to be part of the gathering on this forum, and able to access these discussions. Thanks again for the generous words!
This is the goal towards which the sixth age of humanity will strive: the popularization of occult truth on a wide scale. That's the mission of this age and the society that unites spiritually has the task of bringing this occult truth to life everywhere and applying it directly. That's exactly what our age is missing.
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Re: (Medium-Long) Infernal Loops of the Abstract Intellect

Post by AshvinP »

Federica wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 3:45 pm
AshvinP wrote: Wed Oct 19, 2022 6:22 pm
Federica wrote: Mon Oct 17, 2022 6:17 pm Yes, I understand that. I will try not to go completely insane with the rational loops : ) More seriously, it has happened only a few times, while reflecting on the topics of this forum, that a thought has come while I was alert enough to say to myself “Hey, where is this coming from… It sounds too good to be coming from within my own reasoning” as if I was noticing a slightly different fabric, and also that the idea was coming all at once, like as a round whole, and not as a bit-by-bit elaboration, requiring a labor-intensive process. I don’t know what this observation is worth, and whether it is self-suggestion, I don’t want to pass it through a second level of processing. I am only mentioning it to say that this has not been the case when I was writing the comment to this essay. So there’s no doubt these were crude intellectual thoughts, with nothing intuitive, nothing even remotely artistic in them. The value I find for myself in reasoning this way is the exercising of a kind of intellectual fluidity, and curviness, and openness to surrender - as in wrapping one’s head around something, but in an open, not closed, embrace. That may not seem like much to a spiritually developed person, still, at this point, I see it as a valuable practice, that I additionally try to submit to the influence of feelings, more consciously now, since I read the passage I shared with Güney yesterday, where Steiner reminds the reader of the connection between cognition and the soul, from which cognition arises. So I get a feeling of improvement in some sense, as if I was proceeding more like surfing and less like wrestling, less and less going to battle brandishing my intellectual grids as sharp weapons so to speak, the sharper the better, and more and more going to meet the awesome revelations to come, with sort of waxy grids, and the softer the better. I am thankful for this slight, but for me significant adjustment. I clearly feel I have learned it here, through the discussions on this forum, and that I could hardly have learned it through a book, even a Steiner book.

Federica,

I wouldn't think it was self-suggestion, as I have experienced very similar things, or say that the comment here was devoid of intuition. The fact is, even though we normally feel like our intellectual thinking and concepts are bottom-up, it is also a top-down decoherence of the higher ideations. But we only become conscious of them after they are reflected by the physical organism, which makes it feel as bottom-up activity. And there is definitely value in our intellectual reasoning through these lofty spiritual ideas, especially when we are doing it to perfect the intellectual tool, to make it more open and fluid, as you say. Our intentions are always the most important factor.

It's great that you started to 'surf' the waves so soon. To be honest, I still feel like I am wrestling too much with these ideas and surfing too little. It also took me a long time of procrastination before I really opened up to serious meditative practice. And I think you are clearly a more intuitive-feeling type (with also a keen logical mind), which is exactly what I need to work on to deepen my meditative practice further. So I am also learning a lot from our discussions and grateful that you appeared on this forum!

"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."


This is heartwarming to read, Ashvin, thank you for your encouragement! And I’m happy if there's anything in my posts that helps keep the discussion going in any useful way, as I reflect the great ideas I am exposed to on this forum!
I understand what you say, that we are never alone in thinking, even the intellectual type. From my current reading, Knowledge of the higher worlds, I am developing the sense that the spiritual world is a shared medium with an inherent geometry that can only be worked out from within our own intention. In the physical world, the geometry feels external to our will. We can naively imagine that we are not actively retracing the landscape, because the density of sense 'sings the song of the siren' to distract thinking from itself. Still, in the final analysis, all we ever do is draft geometries. Sometimes we don’t notice, because thinking is hiding from itself in the sensory spectrum, and sometimes we don't dare to extend the drawing beyond its physical canvas, to break free from it into the spiritual.


On ‘surfing’ the intellectual waves, I’ve actually been reminded of the expression by an old personal development book called “Reality transurfing - The space of variations.” I didn’t read it, I remember it seemed somewhat dubious, but the title is suggestive and it stuck with me. To be honest, my surfing really isn't much more than being ok with possibly looking ridiculous with my speculations :)
That’s helpful, but it’s clearly also not with more of such surfing that I’d break through anything significant.
What got me here, won’t get me there, so to say, and I can hardly believe that you need more of this type of surfing! The task of writing an essay, for instance, only seems imaginable, let alone achievable, once a solid intimacy with a set of ideas has been developed, that should extend well beyond surfing the mindwaves. But I realize there’s always a path of progression and not resting on your laurels must be one reason of your ongoing development. Personally I feel beyond lucky to be part of the gathering on this forum, and able to access these discussions. Thanks again for the generous words!

Federica,

If what you wrote in purple is what we are calling 'surfing', then I think that process will be immensely helpful in your journey to 'get there'. These insights gained through probing the contours with more living thinking - a thinking which contemplates its own living nature (even at the stage of intellectual reason; 'thinking thought' in the quote below) - are like seeds which we are planting into the depths of our Being. They will be nourished and grown into spiritual forces after death. But to the extent we engage in esoteric inner development during this life, what normally only occurs after death can be experienced before as well. So it is true the seeds will remain dormant and inert without the proper care and nourishment, i.e. inner soul-work which is of a much different sort than intellectual probing, but if/when that nourishment arrives, they will blossom greatly and we will know this has happened from the seeds we planted.

Much of the siren song which distracts us from the supra-sensory reality of thinking comes from the temporal gap between our inner effort and the results of that effort. We simply don't have the attention span, memory, and, therefore, living interest to discern the lawfulness which occurs over these longer time-frames. That's why most people will start tuning out as soon as it is mentioned about things like Karma, reincarnation, and how what we think-do in one lifetime feeds into another, etc. It just feels like a completely abstract, remote speculation which has no practical bearing on our daily experience. But, ironically, if one were to simply take a living interest in these things, with inner thinking effort, the practical reality would become clear and we would discern how all these so-called 'remote' aspects of existence are playing into our daily experience.

I know you have a living interest, so that is just to say the surfing above is planting seeds and you will begin to discern how they were critical factors for your spiritual development over time. Writing essays, on the other hand, is hit or miss. There are a few things in my long essays which I look back on and think, "I am really glad I decided to write that before." Especially the earlier ones. Maybe I need to re-read them, but I do wish I had put more time into surfing and constructing shorter forum or blog posts here and there. But you are right, ceaseless movement of our thinking in one spiritual direction or another is always better than stagnation.


Scaligero, A Treatise on Living Thinking wrote:By only knowing thought thought, Mankind cannot truly say that it knows. In reality he does not really have knowing, but only the known, deprived of the inner moment by virtue of which it is knowledge. Thinking must first be thought, and fall into reflection, in order to be known by Man. But known, it ceases to be knowledge.

Thus the death of thought is the condition of its being made dialectic in various forms, which are only apparently different from one another. For which
reason, if today Man were to be told the secret of Being, it would be useless to it because it would not know how to think it. Mankind could think it only on condition of reducing it to that reflection, or abstraction, at which level it is impossible for any part of Being to give itself at all.

Mankind however, may find the power of though which thinks, if it is able to discern the Being of the world flowing though it as life. That is the life of the idea which is life in perceived reality, being born in it as from the centre of the world. This is the apex of the path of thought, in that it becomes able to take itself beyond idealistic positions, beyond the dialectics of “thinking thought”, and beyond physical and metaphysical realism.

But a thought thought can once again return to being thought, and this is thinking thought : which is the resurrection of a thought thought, or a reflection of thought : of a lifeless reflection. Whilst life is just about to blossom forth in thinking thought : it is not perceptible, because it extinguishes itself every time by making itself thought.

It is life itself, but not known, nor possessed : the life of thought, or Being of thought, that reflects itself as thinking thought, without giving itself objectively : denying itself in thought, because in each case it is thinking for a thought thought, for reflection, for abstraction. Without which, nevertheless, it would not have the stimulus to be that thought that it is ; necessary for consciousness, which tends to remain awareness of the limit from which it arises.

Thinking thought is about to, but does not leave reflection, even though it is its dynamic moment. [It is not living thinking, but rather the intuition of the dynamic moment of reflectivity; it is not pure thinking, for it is thinking which is not conceived outside its activity through an object.] But to perceive this moment is to retrace the process by means of which it produces itself: to raise oneself from reflection to pure Being which gives itself in it as thought. Not having fallen into reflection, thought is light, or life: still imperceptible to the I that satisfies itself with reflection, which it takes for Being; in which, as an I, it cannot be. But this resurrecting of thought as light or life or light of life requires its being willed, willed with grit, and its being brought about ascetically.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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