BK in conversation with Tom Cambpell

[Eugene I.]

Rather than the extremes of entirely instinctive MAL of BK, entirely rational consciousness of TC or entirely spiritually superb God of monotheistic religions or anthroposophy I think it is actually something in between, a process in progress.

[Ben Iscatus]

entirely spiritually superb God of monotheistic religions

The God who tested Job, destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah....?!

Regarding BK, I would suggest that although the transcendent God is instinctive, that we, as God's dissociated alters, are more. We tend to forget that we are (at least capable of becoming - a process in progress as you say) God Immanent. This is the myth of the Incarnation (God as Christ becomes Man).

[AshvinP]

entirely spiritually superb God of monotheistic religions

The God who tested Job, destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah....?!

Regarding BK, I would suggest that although the transcendent God is instinctive, that we, as God's dissociated alters, are more. We tend to forget that we are (at least capable of becoming - a process in progress as you say) God Immanent. This is the myth of the Incarnation (God as Christ becomes Man).

Do we have to do anything in this process, or does it just happen to us?

[Eugene I.]

Regarding BK, I would suggest that although the transcendent God is instinctive, that we, as God's dissociated alters, are more. We tend to forget that we are (at least capable of becoming - a process in progress as you say) God Immanent. This is the myth of the Incarnation (God as Christ becomes Man).

Well, yeah, another way to say it is that there are "layers" in consciousness - from deep subconscious and instinctive up to hierarchically more and more cognitive and meta-cognitive. Technically MAL includes all of them, so if we "alters" are metacognitive then the MAL is also metacognitive, we can't say anymore that the MAL is entirely instinctive, it's just that there is an instinctive subconscious "layer" in it. In the shallow subconscious the layers are more closely associated with alters individualities, but in the deeper layers the boundaries become fuzzy and eventually dissolve into the collective Jungian unconscious.

But neither we can say that the MAL as a whole evolves in one direction towards one telos or one state (be it unity, perfection or something like that), because the universe of possible conscious states is infinite with infinite number of dimensions of evolution. So, it evolves and expands simultaneously in all those dimensions and can never arrive to any final state even over the infinity of time (because the cardinality of the infinity of states of consciousness is higher than the cardinality of the continuum of time, to phrase it in Kantor's terms).

[AshvinP]

Regarding BK, I would suggest that although the transcendent God is instinctive, that we, as God's dissociated alters, are more. We tend to forget that we are (at least capable of becoming - a process in progress as you say) God Immanent. This is the myth of the Incarnation (God as Christ becomes Man).

Well, yeah, another way to say it is that there are "layers" in consciousness - from deep subconscious and instinctive up to hierarchically more and more cognitive and meta-cognitive. Technically MAL includes all of them, so if we "alters" are metacognitive then the MAL is also metacognitive, we can't say anymore that the MAL is entirely instinctive, it's just that there is an instinctive subconscious "layer" in it. In the shallow subconscious the layers are more closely associated with alters individualities, but in the deeper layers the boundaries become fuzzy and eventually dissolve into the collective Jungian unconscious.

But neither we can say that the MAL as a whole evolves in one direction towards one telos or one state (be it unity, perfection or something like that), because the universe of possible conscious states is infinite with infinite number of dimensions of evolution. So, it evolves and expands simultaneously in all those dimensions and can never arrive to any final state even over the infinity of time (because the cardinality of the infinity of states of consciousness is higher than the cardinality of the continuum of time, to phrase it in Kantor's terms).

Isn't it convenient how we become the most conscious, self-aware beings in this scenario? That we have much higher clarity of experience than the "collective Jungian unconscious"? That we have much more conscious control over our experiences? This scenario says that where we happen to be right now is pretty much the apex of evolution and it's all dissolution of this pesky self-understanding from here on out. Unlike with evolution, it takes no responsibility or effort to dissolve and devolve. We just have to wait for it to happen while, in the meantime, we enjoy all the short-term comforts of life. Very convenient for us, but not so much for the planet Earth or the Cosmos at large.

[Ben Iscatus]

Unlike with evolution, it takes no responsibility or effort to dissolve and devolve. We just have to wait for it to happen while, in the meantime, we enjoy all the short-term comforts of life. Very convenient for us, but not so much for the planet Earth or the Cosmos at large.

I guess you're talking young, healthy, free, first world. Things get much less convenient outside these parameters. Even aging is often appalling. The things that happen to you! Believe me, they oblige you to become more metacognitive. In an angelic sphere, you can probably be creative, but not, I would imagine, very self-reflective.

[AshvinP]

Unlike with evolution, it takes no responsibility or effort to dissolve and devolve. We just have to wait for it to happen while, in the meantime, we enjoy all the short-term comforts of life. Very convenient for us, but not so much for the planet Earth or the Cosmos at large.

I guess you're talking young, healthy, free, first world. Things get much less convenient outside these parameters. Even aging is often appalling. The things that happen to you! Believe me, they oblige you to become more metacognitive. In an angelic sphere, you can probably be creative, but not, I would imagine, very self-reflective.

Yes, that is also good point. It is very convenient for we in the first-world. We can wash our hands clean of all the evils ocurring for people who are less fortunate, saying, "what's the point of taking responsibility of healing the divides via active participation in spiritual evolution, since we are all dissolving into the bliss of Cosmic unconsciouss anyway?" That is practically what happens in Western culture today - there is much talk about "equality", "compassion", and what not, but no conceivable plan of setting out on a path to remedying the divides. This is because the structured reality of Soul-Spirit is either denied to exist or claimed to be entirely opaque to our thinking in this lifetime. If we simply speculate that the angelic sphere is less self-aware than we are, what is the point of even working towards the experience of those realms and bringing back the knowledge for the benefit for all who are less fortunate and don't have the time for rigorous spiritual development, because they are too busy trying to find clean water to drink and enough food to eat? By denying this possibility of sacrificial spiritual evolution which is immanent and discernable on this side of physical death, we practically consign everyone else to forever remain in the evil and suffering they are currently in.