Here participants should focus discussion on Bernardo's model and related ideas, by way of exploration, explication, elaboration, and constructive critique. Moderators may intervene to reel in commentary that has drifted too far into areas where other interest groups may try to steer it
I am not very optimistic about the near-term trends of human culture either
I would very much enjoy reading your medium and long-term prophecies, Ash.
I don't have any prophecies beyond the most obvious trends people are aware of right now. And I think focusing too much mental energy - a small amount of mental energy is too much - on the doomsday prophecies, instead of personal spirtual growth, is what makes the prophecies most likely to fulfill. But, so as not to leave you completely unsatiated here, consider this.
Steiner (100 years ago) wrote:Everything depends upon insight into the Spirit that is lying hidden in European and American culture — the Spirit from which men flee, which for the sake of ease they would fain avoid, but which alone can set the feet of humanity on the path of ascent. People like to put their heads in the sand, saying that things will improve of themselves. No, they will not. The hour of a great decision has struck. Either men will resolve to bring forth the spirituality of which I have spoken, or the decline of the West is inevitable. Hopes and fatalistic longings for things to right themselves are of no avail. Once and forever, man has passed into the epoch when he must manipulate his powers out of his own freewill. In other words: it is for men themselves to decide for or against spirituality. If the decision is positive, progress will be possible; if not, the doom of the West is sealed and in the wake of dire catastrophes the further evolution of humanity will take a course undreamed of today.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
Martin_ wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 9:00 pm
Just putting it out there so ppl check their video and form their own opinion. That's all.
Well of course others can and will have their own opinion about the interview, and BK's vision of humanity's capacity for spiritual growth, beyond being dismissed as self-deception. So I'm curious what it is that you find so compelling and inspiring about BK's vision in that regard?
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
Martin_ wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 9:00 pm
Just putting it out there so ppl check their video and form their own opinion. That's all.
Well of course others can and will have their own opinion about the interview, and BK's vision of humanity's capacity for spiritual growth, beyond being dismissed as self-deception. So I'm curious what it is that you find so compelling and inspiring about BK's vision in that regard?
I actually have a lot to say about this, but unfurtunatelly I can't allow myself the time it deserves due to my current life situation. So I'll have to be brief again.
One example is that i find Kastrups talk about integrating the shadow, and the comparison of Eastern vs Westen morality extremely relevant. He (and Jung) points to a very concrete path to developing Compassion. Not until you Know the evil parts of yourself can you develop compassion for another.
This is concrete. it is True, and it is clear what to do. With unwavering eyes, turn towards those dark recesses of yourself that you've been pretending don't exist. Fearlessly observe what is there, and when you come through on the other side, you will say: Now I understand this.
Martin_ wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 9:00 pm
Just putting it out there so ppl check their video and form their own opinion. That's all.
Well of course others can and will have their own opinion about the interview, and BK's vision of humanity's capacity for spiritual growth, beyond being dismissed as self-deception. So I'm curious what it is that you find so compelling and inspiring about BK's vision in that regard?
I actually have a lot to say about this, but unfurtunatelly I can't allow myself the time it deserves due to my current life situation. So I'll have to be brief again.
One example is that i find Kastrups talk about integrating the shadow, and the comparison of Eastern vs Westen morality extremely relevant. He (and Jung) points to a very concrete path to developing Compassion. Not until you Know the evil parts of yourself can you develop compassion for another.
This is concrete. it is True, and it is clear what to do. With unwavering eyes, turn towards those dark recesses of yourself that you've been pretending don't exist. Fearlessly observe what is there, and when you come through on the other side, you will say: Now I understand this.
TriloByte wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 1:24 pm
A lot of very dubious claims in this interview. Just two of them:
Minute 44’ 43”:
Intrinsically evil arquetipes in nature. Look at the Serengueti= a blood bath.
Seriouslly? Evil dimension in nature? I would think that moral realm appears with human beings.
Minute 48’ 24”:
Our entire justice system is based on revenge.
What? Our justice system is an attempt to move away from revenge!
For Nature consider Goethe's great aphorism:
The spectacle of Nature is always new, for she is always renewing the spectators. Life is her most exquisite invention; and death is her expert contrivance to get plenty of life.
And, about the issue of self-deception, again consider one of Goethe's Aphorisms of Nature:
She rejoices in illusion. Whoso destroys it in himself and others, him she punishes with the sternest tyranny. Whoso follows her in faith, him she takes as a child to her bosom.
For Justice, consider crime-and-punishment. "Revenge", as being used by BK, is pointing at the cultural shadow-denying tendency to try to banish out-of-balance aspects of behavior and diversity (example: war on drugs). As in action-and-reaction, a counter movement homeostatically and instinctive functions, not to banish or eliminate a dysfunction-abuse-malady but rather to propel a return to balance (the current trend toward the therapeutic or simply balanced use of psychoactive substances is an example). This is otherwise expressed systemically as karma or yin-yang. Such dynamism is an instinctual artifact of a living system.
Last edited by Lou Gold on Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:11 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
TriloByte wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 1:24 pm
A lot of very dubious claims in this interview. Just two of them:
Minute 44’ 43”:
Intrinsically evil arquetipes in nature. Look at the Serengueti= a blood bath.
Seriouslly? Evil dimension in nature? I would think that moral realm appears with human beings.
Minute 48’ 24”:
Our entire justice system is based on revenge.
What? Our justice system is an attempt to move away from revenge!
Great points, TB. It goes to show how dualism of subject/object, idea/perception, spirit/matter, meta-cognition/instinctive consciousness (thinking/willing) is not just an intellectual curiosity of the modern age, but leads to inverted conclusions about the entire history of humanity and structure of reality. It leads from a genuine and reasoned Hope directly to a cynical fatalism.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
Having now watched the full interview I can say that I rather liked it. However, there's an important caveat offered by BK. Near the beginning, he clearly states that he is speaking from the pov of Western Civilization and he admits that human nature acculturated in other contexts may be "more mature" or less childish in the desire/need for comforting convenient deceptions. In this regard, I was reminded of ethnobotanist Wade Davis, in "The Serpent and the Rainbow", asking the Vodun priest if there was both white and black magic. The priest answers that both exist but the difference between Wade's culture and his is that, "We know the difference." My takeaway is that there exist varieties of being human that offer better possibilities for human survival through the planetary initiation phase known as apocalypse/revelation. Perhaps the collective we may yet find a way to recombine the insights of different cultural varieties in order return to the garden and know it for the first time. I believe that animism, shamanism, mysticism and the modern paradigm may recombine into sacramental ways better fit for survival. Know hope.
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
Lou Gold wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 4:01 am
Having now watched the full interview I can say that I rather liked it. However, there's an important caveat offered by BK. Near the beginning, he clearly states that he is speaking from the pov of Western Civilization and he admits that human nature acculturated in other contexts may be "more mature" or less childish in the desire/need for comforting convenient deceptions. In this regard, I was reminded of ethnobotanist Wade Davis, in "The Serpent and the Rainbow", asking the Vodun priest if there was both white and black magic. The priest answers that both exist but the difference between Wade's culture and his is that, "We know the difference." My takeaway is that there exist varieties of being human that offer better possibilities for human survival through the planetary initiation phase known as apocalypse/revelation. Perhaps the collective we may yet find a way to recombine the insights of different cultural varieties in order return to the garden and know it for the first time. I believe that animism, shamanism, mysticism and the modern paradigm may recombine into sacramental ways better fit for survival. Know hope.
All fair points Lou. And to be clear, I'm not claiming that BK is claiming to have some definitive take on the prognosis for humanity's capacity for imminent spiritual growth, and some significant degree of transcendent Gnosis, all seeming highly unlikely in his grim view. Of course, he will claim that the evidence, such as it is, justifies this rather grim prognosis—after all (imagine BK wailing here), "It's a bloodbath in one's backyard!" with horrific cruelty everywhere; and humans, in terms of timebound Darwinian evolutionary theory, are only just barely removed from that state, and one need only look at recent events to confirm this, so let's just give it another eon or so ... well good luck with that. And yet, as he concedes, this notion of timebounbd evolution is just another one of what he calls "useful fictions." But as you say, given the apparent urgency of the situation, one has to wonder just how useful it truly is. So keeping in mind that we all tend to focus on whatever 'evidence' there is that supports the 'useful fictions' which most suit our own predispositions, while simply ignoring whatever evidence there may be that doesn't fit the fiction, with BK being no less prone to this than any of us, we surely need to open our Minds eyes up.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
TriloByte wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 1:24 pm
A lot of very dubious claims in this interview. Just two of them:
Minute 44’ 43”:
Intrinsically evil arquetipes in nature. Look at the Serengueti= a blood bath.
Seriouslly? Evil dimension in nature? I would think that moral realm appears with human beings.
Minute 48’ 24”:
Our entire justice system is based on revenge.
What? Our justice system is an attempt to move away from revenge!
For Nature consider Goethe's great aphorism:
The spectacle of Nature is always new, for she is always renewing the spectators. Life is her most exquisite invention; and death is her expert contrivance to get plenty of life.
And, about the issue of self-deception, again consider one of Goethe's Aphorisms of Nature:
She rejoices in illusion. Whoso destroys it in himself and others, him she punishes with the sternest tyranny. Whoso follows her in faith, him she takes as a child to her bosom.
For Justice, consider crime-and-punishment. "Revenge", as being used by BK, is pointing at the cultural shadow-denying tendency to try to banish out-of-balance aspects of behavior and diversity (example: war on drugs). As in action-and-reaction, a counter movement homeostatically and instinctive functions, not to banish or eliminate a dysfunction-abuse-malady but rather to propel a return to balance (the current trend toward the therapeutic or simply balanced use of psychoactive substances is an example). This is otherwise expressed systemically as karma or yin-yang. Such dynamism is an instinctual artifact of a living system.
Lou, I don’t think that the spectacle of life and death we see in nature is the same as the presence of evil in nature. A bird doesn’t eat a worm because the bird is evil.
And that illusion that Goethe poetically sees in nature is not the self-deception prime directive of Mind that Bernardo speaks about in his blog. In a few words: folowing Bernardo’s premise, Goethe is deceived.
Bernardo says that the west doesn’t have the maturity to recognize evil drives and that’s why the judicial system is based on revenge. I think this is a satrawman, there is enough maturity in the west to strugle with evil.
I still admire Bernardo, there is a lot of good content in his philosophy. That post in his blog is so unfortunate that I believe he is going to correct it in some degree, may be soon, in his blog or in another interview.
