If mind's prime directive is to deceive itself, why does it leave means to circumvent this?

[Hedge90]

In one talk - or maybe essay, I can't quite remember - bernardo stated that MAL's primary directive is to deceive itself. Apart from that the choice of words leaves a bad taste in my mouth - it'd sound way better as "MAL's primary directive is to be fully engaged in its imagination" -, this seems illogical to me given the fact that there are means found in nature - i.e. psychedelics - that (at least in Bernardo's view) help you see through the charade. If in fact MAL "wanted" to hide its nature from itself, why would it leave ANY means for itself to circumvent this?

[Martin_]

In one talk - or maybe essay, I can't quite remember - bernardo stated that MAL's primary directive is to deceive itself. Apart from that the choice of words leaves a bad taste in my mouth - it'd sound way better as "MAL's primary directive is to be fully engaged in its imagination" -, this seems illogical to me given the fact that there are means found in nature - i.e. psychedelics - that (at least in Bernardo's view) help you see through the charade. If in fact MAL "wanted" to hide its nature from itself, why would it leave ANY means for itself to circumvent this?

Maybe it CAN'T hide it completely, due to its nature. I mean, how do you Really and Completely hide yourself from youself? Sounds like a challenge which might not be possible.

[Hedge90]

In one talk - or maybe essay, I can't quite remember - bernardo stated that MAL's primary directive is to deceive itself. Apart from that the choice of words leaves a bad taste in my mouth - it'd sound way better as "MAL's primary directive is to be fully engaged in its imagination" -, this seems illogical to me given the fact that there are means found in nature - i.e. psychedelics - that (at least in Bernardo's view) help you see through the charade. If in fact MAL "wanted" to hide its nature from itself, why would it leave ANY means for itself to circumvent this?

Maybe it CAN'T hide it completely, due to its nature. I mean, how do you Really and Completely hide yourself from youself? Sounds like a challenge which might not be possible.

Yeah but you can (I'd assume) make it very very unlikely to find the way to lift the veil. Like, not having mushrooms burning the veil grow in your fantasyland

[TriloByte]

In one talk - or maybe essay, I can't quite remember - bernardo stated that MAL's primary directive is to deceive itself. Apart from that the choice of words leaves a bad taste in my mouth - it'd sound way better as "MAL's primary directive is to be fully engaged in its imagination" -, this seems illogical to me given the fact that there are means found in nature - i.e. psychedelics - that (at least in Bernardo's view) help you see through the charade. If in fact MAL "wanted" to hide its nature from itself, why would it leave ANY means for itself to circumvent this?

The problem is that the use of psychedelics is what allowed Bernardo to find out that this world, the “normal world” we experience is an hallucination too, even he said that our brain generates similar substances as psychedelics.

This is a self-defeating epistemology because then the conclusion that the prime-directive of MaL is to deceive, is not true and then the prime directive is to disclose truth. But wait, that is again another deluded conclusion, then it is true that the prime-directive is to deceive. You see, it is a vicious loop with no exit possible.

But Bernardo writes philosophical books, in the end I think that we can’t take very seriously what he says on this topic of the “self-deceiving prime directive”. You’re right, it would be better to say that MaL is always imagining, searching for new insights. In fact it is what we do, thinking, imagining, intuiting.

[Hedge90]

In one talk - or maybe essay, I can't quite remember - bernardo stated that MAL's primary directive is to deceive itself. Apart from that the choice of words leaves a bad taste in my mouth - it'd sound way better as "MAL's primary directive is to be fully engaged in its imagination" -, this seems illogical to me given the fact that there are means found in nature - i.e. psychedelics - that (at least in Bernardo's view) help you see through the charade. If in fact MAL "wanted" to hide its nature from itself, why would it leave ANY means for itself to circumvent this?

The problem is that the use of psychedelics is what allowed Bernardo to find out that this world, the “normal world” we experience is an hallucination too, even he said that our brain generates similar substances as psychedelics.

This is a self-defeating epistemology because then the conclusion that the prime-directive of MaL is to deceive, is not true and then the prime directive is to disclose truth. But wait, that is again another deluded conclusion, then it is true that the prime-directive is to deceive. You see, it is a vicious loop with no exit possible.

But Bernardo writes philosophical books, in the end I think that we can’t take very seriously what he says on this topic of the “self-deceiving prime directive”. You’re right, it would be better to say that MaL is always imagining, searching for new insights. In fact it is what we do, thinking, imagining, intuiting.

I agree. Something that I've been thinking of lately is that while the consciousness states one can experience while on psychedelics can be felt "more real than waking life", to which I can attest, there is simply no way to know whether this is because they are actually more real, or because (regardless of whether we use a materialistic or idealistic framework) the processes of the brain regulating the "sense of realness" (built-in critical faculties?) are switched off.
Basically the only way one could be certain of the degree of realness of anything is if he was (or realised he is) God, and then created his own world and entered it, without forgetting his godhood. Though even then the memories could be delusional.

[Ben Iscatus]

You see, it is a vicious loop with no exit possible

Well said. Perhaps that's a good description of Consciousness itself?

[TriloByte]

I agree. Something that I've been thinking of lately is that while the consciousness states one can experience while on psychedelics can be felt "more real than waking life", to which I can attest, there is simply no way to know whether this is because they are actually more real, or because (regardless of whether we use a materialistic or idealistic framework) the processes of the brain regulating the "sense of realness" (built-in critical faculties?) are switched off.
Basically the only way one could be certain of the degree of realness of anything is if he was (or realised he is) God, and then created his own world and entered it, without forgetting his godhood. Though even then the memories could be delusional.

Whatever we experience is real, all is experience. The problem is the interpretation of what we experience. I suppose that that is why philosophy is important, It gave us the framework to interprete our experiences.

I don’t trust in psychedelics but I am not an expert, I have never had experience with substances, just alcohol. But look, lets suppose this moment is an hallucinated reality too. Well, I pretty mucho rather to be in this hallucinatory state, right now when I am writing these lines, than the hallucinatory state with psychedelics. If I have to choose an hallucinatory state, I stick with this one.

And don’t forget: I Am God. You too.

[TriloByte]

Well said. Perhaps that's a good description of Consciousness itself?

I would’t think so, Ben. Consciousness IS evolution. We are going to a final participation in the Barfield sense. Then, we are not a loop but an infinite spiral, always finding better ways to connect, toward unification. Or so I’d like to interpret all this.

[Hedge90]

I agree. Something that I've been thinking of lately is that while the consciousness states one can experience while on psychedelics can be felt "more real than waking life", to which I can attest, there is simply no way to know whether this is because they are actually more real, or because (regardless of whether we use a materialistic or idealistic framework) the processes of the brain regulating the "sense of realness" (built-in critical faculties?) are switched off.
Basically the only way one could be certain of the degree of realness of anything is if he was (or realised he is) God, and then created his own world and entered it, without forgetting his godhood. Though even then the memories could be delusional.

Whatever we experience is real, all is experience. The problem is the interpretation of what we experience. I suppose that that is why philosophy is important, It gave us the framework to interprete our experiences.

I don’t trust in psychedelics but I am not an expert, I have never had experience with substances, just alcohol. But look, lets suppose this moment is an hallucinated reality too. Well, I pretty mucho rather to be in this hallucinatory state, right now when I am writing these lines, than the hallucinatory state with psychedelics. If I have to choose an hallucinatory state, I stick with this one.

And don’t forget: I Am God. You too.

Whatever we experience is real, but we have to set up certain degrees of "how real". We can, I assume, agree that while a dream is a real experience, from the waking state you can realise that while the experience was real, the actual events that took place in the dream are at a lesser level of reality than the one you currently reside in, if for none other, then the fact that what happens in the world outside the dream can affect the dream (i.e. a phone ringing can materialise within the dream as an alarm, for example), which is not true vice versa.
We can also say that for a mentally healthy person, the "feeling of clarity" is higher in the waking state then in the dream. When you dream you are unable to realise that you are now operating at a lower degree of consciousness, but when you are awake, you can easily make a comparison with the dream state, and realise that it's a way more "dim" experience (in the sense of cognitive clarity) than the waking one.
The reason why the psychedelic state is so curious, however, is that while it has the characteristics of the dream in that the phenomena of the external world can have an effect on what you will experience, it is also accompanied by a feeling of increased clarity that compares to normal waking life the same way as normal waking life compares to the dream.

[Martin_]

In one talk - or maybe essay, I can't quite remember - bernardo stated that MAL's primary directive is to deceive itself. Apart from that the choice of words leaves a bad taste in my mouth - it'd sound way better as "MAL's primary directive is to be fully engaged in its imagination" -, this seems illogical to me given the fact that there are means found in nature - i.e. psychedelics - that (at least in Bernardo's view) help you see through the charade. If in fact MAL "wanted" to hide its nature from itself, why would it leave ANY means for itself to circumvent this?

The problem is that the use of psychedelics is what allowed Bernardo to find out that this world, the “normal world” we experience is an hallucination too, even he said that our brain generates similar substances as psychedelics.

This is a self-defeating epistemology because then the conclusion that the prime-directive of MaL is to deceive, is not true and then the prime directive is to disclose truth. But wait, that is again another deluded conclusion, then it is true that the prime-directive is to deceive. You see, it is a vicious loop with no exit possible.

But Bernardo writes philosophical books, in the end I think that we can’t take very seriously what he says on this topic of the “self-deceiving prime directive”. You’re right, it would be better to say that MaL is always imagining, searching for new insights. In fact it is what we do, thinking, imagining, intuiting.

I agree. Something that I've been thinking of lately is that while the consciousness states one can experience while on psychedelics can be felt "more real than waking life", to which I can attest, there is simply no way to know whether this is because they are actually more real, or because (regardless of whether we use a materialistic or idealistic framework) the processes of the brain regulating the "sense of realness" (built-in critical faculties?) are switched off.
Basically the only way one could be certain of the degree of realness of anything is if he was (or realised he is) God, and then created his own world and entered it, without forgetting his godhood. Though even then the memories could be delusional.

So maybe psychedelics is a trick from MAL making you think you're experiencing the Real stuff, but actually throwing you off the scent...