Evil abstraction: the psychology of totalitarianism

Here participants should focus discussion on Bernardo's model and related ideas, by way of exploration, explication, elaboration, and constructive critique. Moderators may intervene to reel in commentary that has drifted too far into areas where other interest groups may try to steer it
ScottRoberts
Posts: 253
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:22 pm

Re: Evil abstraction: the psychology of totalitarianism

Post by ScottRoberts »

Eugene I. wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:07 am However, NATO expansion is by far not the only and not the main reason for Russia's invasion in Ukraine, it's is rather one of the justifications. The more fundamental reason was given in the ARTICLE BY VLADIMIR PUTIN ”ON THE HISTORICAL UNITY OF RUSSIANS AND UKRAINIANS“ where he insists that Ukraine is not and has never been a sovereign country and sovereign nation and it has always been part of Russia. Putin sees his role to restore the lost unity even if it has to involve military means.
I've read the Putin article. However, I think the Russian government would be satisfied if Ukraine remains as a separate country, but minus the Donbass and Black Sea coast, and it agrees to stay neutral.

As to the origin of the Donbass war (from your previous post), I would put the origin at the US-backed Maidan coup.
Eugene I.
Posts: 182
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:20 pm

Re: Evil abstraction: the psychology of totalitarianism

Post by Eugene I. »

ScottRoberts wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:36 am I've read the Putin article. However, I think the Russian government would be satisfied if Ukraine remains as a separate country, but minus the Donbass and Black Sea coast, and it agrees to stay neutral.
Yes, at this point it probably would, because now Putin realizes that annexing Ukraine and subduing the Ukrainians is just not realistic even if the military operation would be successful, because Russia would end up in another "Afghan war" within its own borders.
As to the origin of the Donbass war (from your previous post), I would put the origin at the US-backed Maidan coup.
It is very debatable how much the Maidan was influenced by the US. There was a definite support from the US part, but the direct involvement has never been proven and is debatable. But even if that would be true, the Zelensky government is definitely a result of free elections and not a result of a coup. Also, what does Maidan have to do with Donbass? Putin was certainly mad at what happened in Maidan, but that is not a valid reason to ignite and fuel a separatist war on a territory of a sovereign country.

On the other hand, there was a separatist movement in Donbass, and Ukraine should have dealt with it in a civilized manner, like Quebec separatism was dealt with in Canada. So, in part, the Donbass problem is a failure of Ukrainian own internal politics.
User avatar
Soul_of_Shu
Posts: 2023
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Evil abstraction: the psychology of totalitarianism

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

Eugene I. wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:52 am On the other hand, there was a separatist movement in Donbass, and Ukraine should have dealt with it in a civilized manner, like Quebec separatism was dealt with in Canada. So, in part, the Donbass problem is a failure of Ukrainian own internal politics.
As you no doubt know, when the FLQ separatist movement turned to bombs and violence, culminating in the kidnapping and murder of a government minister (Pierre Laporte), Trudeau senior invoked the War Measures Act, sent in the troops, arresting on the basis of scant evidence anyone thought to be associated with the separatist movement, and shut it down. Only later did negotiations with the sovereignist Party Quebecois, which was formed and came to power in the aftermath, eventually lead to a referendum, essentially relegating the movement into the fringes, where it lingers on as a dream in the minds of some Quebecois who still believe that they should be a distinct nation—all deeply rooted in past 'superpower' wars between France and England, the difference being that the FLQ didn't have a superpower supplying it with the military wherewithal to resist, dragging the region into a long protracted civil war. And now Trudeau junior is considered by many in Canuckistan to be a dictatorial 'tyrant' and enemy of 'freedom' ... and on it goes with politics as usual in the us-vs-them mindset :?
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
Eugene I.
Posts: 182
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:20 pm

Re: Evil abstraction: the psychology of totalitarianism

Post by Eugene I. »

Soul_of_Shu wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 9:15 am As you no doubt know, when the FLQ separatist movement turned to bombs and violence, culminating in the kidnapping and murder of a government minister (Pierre Laporte), Trudeau senior invoked the War Measures Act, sent in the troops, arresting on the basis of scant evidence anyone thought to be associated with the separatist movement, and shut it down. Only later did negotiations with the sovereignist Party Quebecois, which was formed and came to power in the aftermath, eventually lead to a referendum, essentially relegating the movement into the fringes, where it lingers on as a dream in the minds of some Quebecois who still believe that they should be a distinct nation—all deeply rooted in past 'superpower' wars between France and England, the difference being that the FLQ didn't have a superpower supplying it with the military wherewithal to resist, dragging the region into a long protracted civil war. And now Trudeau junior is considered by many in Canuckistan to be a dictatorial 'tyrant' and enemy of 'freedom' ... and on it goes with politics as usual in the us-vs-them mindset :?
You are right, Shu, I'm aware of that. Ethnic conflicts are very difficult to resolve, even in Western democracies, we have plenty of examples in Northern Ireland, Catalan, Basques, Quebec and so on. But when those separatist movements are backed and fueled with weapons by another country (like it happened in Donbass conflict), then that's a recipe for disaster.

A few points to add to my previous posts.

One is that the threat of NATO invasion to Russia because "the NATO countries want to annex Russia with its natural resources" is a complete myth of Russian propaganda. NATO will never invade Russia for the purpose to annex it and take the possession of its natural resources, simply because it makes no economic and political sense. Economically, the Western economies are not interested in acquiring natural resources because the portion of raw materials is very small in their economic cost structure. For example, Canada in Saskatchewan has the richest deposits of Uranium in the world, however, they never developed it because it makes little economic sense. The socio-political reason is that the Western countries are well aware that it would be impossible to subdue and control Russians over its huge territory, it would require enormous amount of resources with little economic benefit.

Another point is about "safety concerns" regarding Ukraine joining NATO. Yes, Russia does have valid safety concerns about that. Even if we dismiss the myth of "NATO invasion", Russia would still be at disadvantage in the nuclear parity if Ukraine joins NATO (because NATO would likely place anti-ballistic missile defense systems at the border with Russia). However, Ukraine, being a sovereign country, also has its own safety concerns, because it is obvious that Russia is a constant threat to Ukraine, and for Ukraine joining NATO is a guarantee for their own safety. So, there is an obvious conflict of safety interests here.
User avatar
Soul_of_Shu
Posts: 2023
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Evil abstraction: the psychology of totalitarianism

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

More fuel for the mire ... The US and NATO’s Sacrifice Of Ukraine
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
Eugene I.
Posts: 182
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:20 pm

Re: Evil abstraction: the psychology of totalitarianism

Post by Eugene I. »

Soul_of_Shu wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 12:59 pm More fuel for the mire ... The US and NATO’s Sacrifice Of Ukraine
What this article is illustrating is that what is going on now in Ukraine is, in part, the result of a thirty-three year history of broken promises and careless, greed propelled decisions made by the US and NATO.
Well, true but only part of the truth. There was good a reason that Eastern European countries wanted to join NATO, and then NATO allowed them to join by responding to their requests. And that reason was because they wanted safety guarantees from the threat of the expansion of the Russian Empire and its zone of influence and control. After a quick "honeymoon" of Gorbachev and early Eltsin liberal periods, it became obvious that the Russian society and political landscape shifted from liberal agenda back to nationalistic and imperialistic agenda in the nineties. The leaders of the leading political parties, such as Communists, Zhirinovsky's party, Putin and his party, became preaching the old nationalistic narrative of "restoring the Great Russian Empire". It was obvious for the Eastern European countries, including Ukraine, that Russia is again after them, so they quickly ran under the umbrella of NATO for safety reasons. So, turning the tables again, it was exactly the rise of the Russian imperialistic agenda that fueled the expansion of NATO.

Just to give some historical background, there has been a dispute and socio-political competition going on between the "Westerners" and "Slavianophiles" for more than a few centuries among intellectuals and political elite in Russia. The philosophy of Westerners was that Russia belongs to Europe and the right developmental path for Russia is to join Europe in its socio-political and economic development, including the adaptation of democracy and liberal values. The Slavianophiles argued that Russia, by its culture, historical and religious background, does not belong to Europe and has its own unique socio-political trajectory and needs to adhere to it and avoid melting with the European community. Such famous figures as Dostoevsky and Solzhenitsin actually belonged to Slavianophiles. There is too much content and background behind the Slavianophiles agenda to elaborate here, but in my personal opinion Slavianophiles definitely have their valid points. However, there is a serious flaw in their agenda, which is Russian Imperialism. Slavianophilism is not just an idea of a unique developmental path for Russia, it is based on the idea of a "special spiritual and cultural mission" of Russia, the idea of "Russia the third Rome", the "Russian World", a Great Russian Empire with a mission to not only develop on its own along this path, but expand and bring other nations along with it. In the minds of Slavianophiles the Great Russia can only be the Great Russian Empire that includes a plethora of satellite nations. In a way it is similar to the American "liberal hegemony" agenda of the expansion of the liberal democracy over the entire world. But for Russia with its constant economic and socio-political troubles this is a completely futile agenda because no other nations want to join the "Russian World" under the Russian umbrella on their own will and become part of the Russian Empire (with the exception of may be Belorussians). This "unique Russian cultural path" may be very authentic for Russians, but would be completely alien for other nations surrounding Russia with different cultural backgrounds. What such nations as Buddhist Bashkirs or Islamic Chechens have in common with Russian culture? Absolutely nothing.

In my personal opinion, the right developmental path for Russia would be sort of "Slavianoplilism stripped from Russian Imperialism". Slavianophiles need to abandon their imperialistic expansive agenda and focus on the development of Russia as a sovereign country along its unique socio-cultural path. A good example of such path is India - a democracy with unique cultural background that does not follow liberal or any other political agendas alien to their culture, and does not join any military or political alliances, as well as does not try to expand into an empire and pull other countries under its zone of influence. Unfortunately, currently in Russia nobody even considers such possibility, and the society and the political landscape are stuck in the centuries-old conflict between Westerners and Imperialistic Slavianophiles, with neither of them willing to change and adapt to realities.

Also, for anyone interested, here is Alexander Dugin, a prominent Russian Slavianophilist philosopher. You can clearly sense here the imperialist geopolitical agenda behind his political philosophy justifying the war in Ukraine
Alexander Dugin speaking on the Ukraine conflict
User avatar
Soul_of_Shu
Posts: 2023
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Evil abstraction: the psychology of totalitarianism

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

Eugene I. wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:08 pm Also, for anyone interested, here is Alexander Dugin, a prominent Russian Slavianophilist philosopher.
Slavianophilists really gotta come up with a cooler name for that fixated separate identity notion if they want anyone to join in :mrgreen:

The only '-ophile' I can relate to is being a musicophile, and with that I think I'll chime out of the rhetorical quagmire, with not even one POV I can ponder without feeling despair, and let the pentup woundup windup dressup doll of this politico persona wind down, returning to a state of quietude to the tune of this Warrior ...

Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
Eugene I.
Posts: 182
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:20 pm

Re: Evil abstraction: the psychology of totalitarianism

Post by Eugene I. »

Interesting, thanks for the links. The sad reality is: all sides of the conflict, both US/Europe and Russia, are pursuing their own opposing geopolitical interests by means of using lethal weapons with a total disregard for the lives and interests of ordinary people. And both sides are equally responsible for turning this geopolitical confrontation into a war.

Regarding the nazi right-wing groups, no doubt there are such groups in Ukraine, but so there are in Russia, and these groups from both sides have been fighting in Donbass since 2014. Both sides are known for their atrocities and their disregard for the lives of civilians.
Eugene I.
Posts: 182
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:20 pm

Re: Evil abstraction: the psychology of totalitarianism

Post by Eugene I. »

Well, after careful reading I have to say that these articles are a mix of some truths and some distortions and propaganda. For example, the second article says "in spite of rather crude allegations, we do not observe any delivery of arms and materials Russian military"

However, here is an excerpt from the UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) “Report on the human rights situation in Ukraine 16 February to 15 May 2016”
When the conflict broke out in spring 2014 with the influx of foreign fighters, including citizens of the Russian Federation, ammunition and heavy weaponry into east Ukraine from across the border with the Russian Federation and the Government of Ukraine’s security ‘anti-terrorism operation’ response, OHCHR witnessed major violations and abuses of human rights. The lack of security and at times intense military hostilities contributed to a total breakdown in the rule of law, leading to lack of any real protection for those opposing the presence of armed groups and a worsening human rights situation in certain areas of Donetsk and Luhansk regions. Since mid-2014, OHCHR has, recorded some 1,500 accounts from victims, witnesses and relatives. These accounts show that all parties are responsible for human rights violations and abuses and violations of international humanitarian law. Above all, these testimonies – and the civilian casualty data collected – demonstrate that civilians have paid the greatest price for this conflict. ”
Post Reply