Lou Gold wrote: ↑Tue Jul 19, 2022 7:44 am
Federica wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:35 pm
Lou Gold wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 8:09 pm
OK. I accept that you can't imagine that I'm not ignoring a pole. Perhaps, we can just agree that it takes a lot of ongoing work to become worthy of the promise and we must approach that task with a great humility.
Lou,
I am reading your dialogue with Ashvin, coming to separate closures on different pages. And now you have affixed your characteristic 'perhaps-we-can-agree-that' final seal to it. Is it still possible to lift the seal and open the book again, but at a completely different chapter? Not trying to catch you into realizations about polarities here (even if I wanted, I wouldn't be able). I just would like to share with you the thoughts that this conversation evokes, and completely abandon the question whether you are or aren’t ignoring anything. Instead, can we make it about our previous topic of attachment to identity that needs to be shed?
Sure, Federica. I'll give it a try.
Federica wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:35 pm
As you earlier said, when you cling to some self-identity, you often find yourself compelled to let go of it. For instance, sacrificing feelings of self righteousness, or superiority, is a continuous shedding process. And how does it feel to shed self righteousness? Good, right? And rightly so. Self righteousness is not compassionate, it doesn’t show love. So when we see it, we take action, we have the honesty and the respect for others that is required in order to shed it, we are doing what’s right. It feels good. I use ‘we’ not to soften the message, but because I include myself, and others in general, in this common type of drifts we often play to ourselves, that’s so easy to get caught in.
Actually, it does not often or generally feel good. Humility does not naturally come to me. It was not my early training in achievement culture. I can't really recall striving toward humility but I assure you I've been humbled, busted so to speak on a variety of occasions. No, it was not necessarily fun or uplifting, more like a wake-up call.
Federica wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:35 pm
Now I want to submit another question to you. What if our thirst for humbleness, that we quench by shedding self righteousness, by sticking to the role of the humble and respectful learner, the thankful witness of the sacred diversity of this world and its inhabitants, is nothing but a second layer of skin that also has to be shed, in a 'continuous shedding process', as you described it?
Again, I can't say that I "thirst for humbleness." Yes, I like the root word of humble, the Greek
humus, meaning close to the soil. I would like to be grounded, to be simply real in the now. But this (for me) is not a "role of the humble and respectful learner, the thankful witness of the sacred diversity of this world and its inhabitants" or other exalted descriptions of a so-called "striving". If I did see it this way, I would surely have to shed it. What I do find more and more now, as an old guy in the late stage of my present end zone, is more and more like a life review whereby each shedding opens to a larger more generous or compassionate process. I become more interested in understanding others than judging them.
Federica wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:35 pm
What if we need to see through the uplifting feeling that we get from shedding self-righteousness and instead tackle the more advanced sheddings, the ones where we could, with effort, roughly anticipate what they are hiding, but not how it will make us feel once their hidden function is brought into aware consideration? The function of shedding self righteousness is to satisfy a thirst for humbleness. But what is the function insured by clinging to the humble learner and thankful witness' role that is maybe uncomfortable to uncover and shed, Lou? And what new perspective on ourselves could we gain from that sacrifice?
Yes, attachment (cliging) to reward ("uplifting feeling" or whatever) becomes a trap, a snare. Each step yields a new horizon. It's a process. I'm reminded of a Tibetan saying I read long ago about the spiritual path" "If begun, better to finish" or, don't stop on any step. But this, for me at least, is not a one size fits every person in every moment precept. As Jesus says, "The sign of the Father in you is movement and repose." We do need to rest. Each person has his/her karma and time to release.
Perhaps, I can add another perspective on sacrifice: it's not necessarily an achievement trip or striving. In my life-changing dream 40 years ago I was faced with a situation that evoked very strong negative judgements that I pushed aside in favor of a childlike curiosity that simply wanted to know more about what I was witnessing. That kid, that magical inner being, was not striving to be a better or uplifted person. He simply wanted to know more about something incredibly beautiful. The judgements were sacrificed in the moment of that choice. I'm eternally that they were.
I don't know if I've responded well to your questions but I enjoyed giving it a try. Thank you. In the spirit of lightning up perhaps you'll enjoy a cartoon I stumbled upon this afternoon.
Lou,
Thank you for playing the game, and for the cartoon! In the spirit of keeping it lightened up, I’m staying with your cartoon. It's a story that I hope you’ll enjoy rewriting!
“If begun… better to finish…” said the guy out loud, as he was taking an evening walk in the city park. On his t-shirt, a colorful imprint in huge, block capitals stood out. It said OLD GUY on the front, LATE STAGE OF END ZONE on the back.
“Hey colorful You! - shouted a caterpillar, tipping forward from a magnolia leaf lying on the side of the path - You seem super busy, but I’m curious! You were mumbling ‘if begun better to finish’ but… what if we don’t even begin?”
“Well, then we are free to rest, little Caterpillar - said the guy with a gentle smile - it’s a personal choice.”
“Really? Do you mean that I can skip all the chrysalis acrobatics, rest on this silky leaf, and just enjoy the breeze, if I choose to?”
“Well… not really, little Caterpillar… We don’t want to stop on any steps! What you are about to do is incredibly beautiful, but whatever your decision, I am so glad our paths have crossed!”
“I get it! No stop
on the steps, but
before the steps! But... what about you? Where are you going to build your chrysalis?”
“Little Caterpillar… Please don't caterpillarize me, we are all different. Can you not read English? I am late stage old and I don’t intend to start big endeavors of any sorts, OK? I already did the heavy work many years ago, with the help of Karma, and it still holds. Back then, we shed some heavy prejudices to follow love and beauty, and we never looked back. Well… I do look back sometimes, like... often, but only with the eyes of eternal gratitude, I assure you. So no need for new beginnings, because if begun…”
“...better to finish?”
“Exactly! Plus, Karma doesn’t really work like that.”
“Oh… Indeed, I wanted to ask you about this guy, Karma, who helps you tackle work. I would love to rely on Karma too for all my heavy work with chrysalis engineering and all that. May I ask you how much you pay for Karma services?”
“Oh! No, no, little Caterpillar, you don’t understand.
I work
for Karma, not the other way round. Karma decides for me. And now Karma tells me to rest. You understand, don't you? 49 year ago he told me to quit academia, and 40 years ago he made me quit big prejudices. Then, 37 years ago… well you get the idea. We have been working all our life. So today he’s telling me - rest, old guy. Even this t-shirt is Karma-based by the way.”
“Is it? How lucky though… You actually have an assignment to rest!”
“Well, it is not really so, little Caterpillar. Sometimes Karma gives me a wake-up call, in case I overlooked some cleanup, and then I know I have to attend to it, it’s a process. And I can tell you, I hate shedding layers of dust and cleaning up! But I still do it, of course, it’s my job. And I can tell you more. I would love to love cleaning up and shedding, like all these humble people who are keen on that. They do so much work, and their feet are grounded in the now. But this is, as it were, not my Karma’s style, unfortunately. We have to accept that.”
“I understand… Maybe you could resign, get another assignement and work with what you love? By the way, do you have good work conditions?”
“No, no, no, little Caterpillar, this is a great job. I’m very lucky! My Karma is a very cool type, I am never required to do heavy upgrades. Note, I still keep myself current, all those super interesting things out there, I know they exist, but for what I personally need to do, this is more than enough. You know, I’m not trying to ascend anywhere, nor to guide anyone. I have peace of mind, I have gratitude, I have faith… it’s all included! So yes, conditions are good, I’m staying! I mean, he is staying with me, he decides. Best of luck with your beautiful endeavor, little Caterpillar!"
Little Caterpillar was about to thank the guy, when a biker passed by and squashed it on the ground.
“Our paths are all different - he reflected as he was resuming the walk - as our Karma are. We have to accept that. May our paths be all good, in all their own special ways.”
.