New topic split from 'concise criticism of analytic idealism' thread.

[Federica]

Federica,

My Mark Vernon reference was not intended for a list of got-tos. I just wanted to share that I found his comments on purgatory as interesting.

No, I've not been reading this for entertainment. Across my years at this forum I've learn much from the dialogues of others, especially when they are on paths different from my own.

In my now, I have very little to sacrifice in the form of material possessions but letting go of judgement, feelings of self righteousness or superiority does continue as a shedding process. Across the years I've had many experiential examples of letting go resulting in something expanded or more spiritual. It's as if sacrifice creates sacred space.

Thank you Lou!

Yes, that's how I understood your reference (I have looked a little, until I felt I'm lacking too much background to really enjoy the descriptions of the many encounters Dante makes on the slopes of the mount, however I did find a few interesting parallels).

On shedding the feelings of self righteousness I was wondering, how does it relate to being a 'transcend-and-include person'?

[AshvinP]

That is only to say, don't feel like you aren't gaining anything from thinking through what is written about the self-conscious spiritual, in response to your own thoughtful questions and ponderings, even if you can't really make sense of it yet. Certainly there is no need to memorize any of it and, after some point, that would only get in the way. You may have already come across Ch 12 in PoSA:

A FREE spirit acts according to his impulses, i.e., intuitions, which his thinking has selected out of the whole world of his Ideas. For an unfree spirit, the reason why he singles out a particular intuition from his world of Ideas, in order to make it the basis of an action, lies in the perceptual world which is given to him, i.e., in his past experiences. He recalls, before making a decision, what someone else has done, or recommended as proper in an analogous case, or what God has commanded to be done in such a case, etc., and he acts on these recollections. For a free spirit these preliminary conditions are not the only impulses to action. He takes an absolutely original decision. He cares as little what others have done in such a case as what commands they had laid down. He has purely ideal reasons which determine him to select a particular concept out of the sum of his concepts, and to realize it in action.

Also, if you have not read Cleric's Deep MAL essay (his 2nd essay written here), I would say that is something to put on the 'to do' list! It is an excellent overview of the spiritual evolutionary process.

Thank you Ashvin. Yes, I’m sure I am gaining from reading what is written, no matter the extent of immediate understanding. No, I never try to memorize anything, and I haven’t started The philosophy of spiritual activity yet, the only one started is The philosophy of freedom. I am known though, for making ‘original decisions’, although probably not in the sense Steiner was meaning it : ) (Ok, this was half a joke)


Now I'm serious again, it’s about Deep Mind at Large. Your related comments here also helped. I didn’t read further until I gained at least a minimum viable meaning from what is written. I think this is necessary, to at least make the effort to connect the content further and so I understood enough for it to make my head spin. I don’t want to ask anything before I go to it again, I only want to say, I've seen no possible uncertainty in the course of evolution.

PoSA is simply alternate American title for PoF. They are the same book, although translations differ (I mostly prefer the Wilson 1974 one, although I haven't looked through all of them yet).

[Lou Gold]

Federica,

My Mark Vernon reference was not intended for a list of got-tos. I just wanted to share that I found his comments on purgatory as interesting.

No, I've not been reading this for entertainment. Across my years at this forum I've learn much from the dialogues of others, especially when they are on paths different from my own.

In my now, I have very little to sacrifice in the form of material possessions but letting go of judgement, feelings of self righteousness or superiority does continue as a shedding process. Across the years I've had many experiential examples of letting go resulting in something expanded or more spiritual. It's as if sacrifice creates sacred space.

Thank you Lou!

Yes, that's how I understood your reference (I have looked a little, until I felt I'm lacking too much background to really enjoy the descriptions of the many encounters Dante makes on the slopes of the mount, however I did find a few interesting parallels).

On shedding the feelings of self righteousness I was wondering, how does it relate to being a 'transcend-and-include person'?

It compels me to be accepting of the fact that each person has a way and mission that fits them and plays a role in the larger process. Within the polarity some are defenders of the purity of a pole.

[AshvinP]

No problem with you speaking your mind directly. I'm definitely a transcend-and-include person. Agree that we can't regress although catastrophe might trigger a reset or new mix from an earlier context (example: modern agriculture embracing the terra preta technologies of the pre-Columbian central Amazon).

Indeed, I mentioned before how our current epoch is a recapitulation of the ancient Egyptian. All of modern science is born from the seeds of Divine revelation at that time, but now consciously from within as scientific knowledge. We see this very clearly in a field like astronomy. The next epoch will be an echo of the ancient Persian epoch, when Zarathustra received the great Sun revelation concerning the principles of Light-Darkness, Good-Evil. We soon come to the task of beginning to redeem the out-of-phase, disharmonious principle of Darkness through living spiritual knowledge.

It is the same as regards great universal questions — a halt must be made somewhere; made at what lies at the fountain of the teaching of Zarathustra; at Time, calm, onflowing Time. Then, according to Zarathustra, there proceeded from Time, Ormuzd, the principle of Light, and Ahriman, the evil principle of Darkness. The profound meaning underlying this Iranian or old Persian idea is that the wickedness in the world, all that in its physical form is described as darkness, was not originally wicked, dark and evil. In the same way the wolf was originally good, but when left to itself it degenerated so that Ahrimanic forces could be active in it. To the Iranians or Persians evil came to pass through something that at one time — a time suited to it — was good, retaining its form on into a later age with which it was out of harmony. To them, all that was black and evil arose through a form which was good in one age, continuing on into a later age, instead of adapting itself to change. Through the clashing of such forms of being with the more advanced ones of a later time, the struggle between good and evil arose. Evil is therefore not absolute evil, but misplaced good, something that was good in an earlier time. There, where earlier conditions did not as yet come into collision with later conditions, enduring Time rolled on, Time that was undifferentiated, not yet separated into individual moments.

... modern man has heard enough about guilt and sin. He is solely beset by his own bad conscience. And wants rather to know, how he is to reconcile himself with his own nature. How he is to love the enemy in his own heart and call the wolf his brother?"
- Ending Your Inner Civil War

Your comment brought to mind the movie Apocalypto and the opening quote - "A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within." The inner dynamics of human consciousness are always becoming outer realities and that's the history of human evolution. We can't gain a holistic appreciation for how this occurs from the perspective of the fragmented visible and transient occurrences, but only from the perspective of what is higher and more eternal.

We can't simply reverse Time and 'reset' to earlier modes of consciousness or outer existence. This cannot happen for the Cosmic organism as a whole, since it would be losing the degrees of freedom attained through the evolutionary progression. Yet parts of this organism can remain underdeveloped or become 'cancerous', as the case may be. That is further maladaptive orientation towards the currents of evolution which we need to avoid now more than ever. Of course we must always caution against trying to oversimply these dynamics with our concepts, which is all too common in our increasingly abstract, divisive times. Living spiritual knowledge is the precondition to doing these dynamics Justice, both in our understanding of them and our participation in their harmonization.

[Lou Gold]

Federica,

My Mark Vernon reference was not intended for a list of got-tos. I just wanted to share that I found his comments on purgatory as interesting.

No, I've not been reading this for entertainment. Across my years at this forum I've learn much from the dialogues of others, especially when they are on paths different from my own.

In my now, I have very little to sacrifice in the form of material possessions but letting go of judgement, feelings of self righteousness or superiority does continue as a shedding process. Across the years I've had many experiential examples of letting go resulting in something expanded or more spiritual. It's as if sacrifice creates sacred space.

Thank you Lou!

Yes, that's how I understood your reference (I have looked a little, until I felt I'm lacking too much background to really enjoy the descriptions of the many encounters Dante makes on the slopes of the mount, however I did find a few interesting parallels).

On shedding the feelings of self righteousness I was wondering, how does it relate to being a 'transcend-and-include person'?

It compels me to be accepting of the fact that each person has a way and mission that fits them and plays a role in the larger process. Within the polarity some are defenders of the purity of a pole.

But I do get your drift. Attachment to an identity needs to be shed lest it becomes in Ashvin's motto of a step becoming a snare.

[Lou Gold]

No problem with you speaking your mind directly. I'm definitely a transcend-and-include person. Agree that we can't regress although catastrophe might trigger a reset or new mix from an earlier context (example: modern agriculture embracing the terra preta technologies of the pre-Columbian central Amazon).

Indeed, I mentioned before how our current epoch is a recapitulation of the ancient Egyptian. All of modern science is born from the seeds of Divine revelation at that time, but now consciously from within as scientific knowledge. We see this very clearly in a field like astronomy. The next epoch will be an echo of the ancient Persian epoch, when Zarathustra received the great Sun revelation concerning the principles of Light-Darkness, Good-Evil. We soon come to the task of beginning to redeem the out-of-phase, disharmonious principle of Darkness through living spiritual knowledge.

It is the same as regards great universal questions — a halt must be made somewhere; made at what lies at the fountain of the teaching of Zarathustra; at Time, calm, onflowing Time. Then, according to Zarathustra, there proceeded from Time, Ormuzd, the principle of Light, and Ahriman, the evil principle of Darkness. The profound meaning underlying this Iranian or old Persian idea is that the wickedness in the world, all that in its physical form is described as darkness, was not originally wicked, dark and evil. In the same way the wolf was originally good, but when left to itself it degenerated so that Ahrimanic forces could be active in it. To the Iranians or Persians evil came to pass through something that at one time — a time suited to it — was good, retaining its form on into a later age with which it was out of harmony. To them, all that was black and evil arose through a form which was good in one age, continuing on into a later age, instead of adapting itself to change. Through the clashing of such forms of being with the more advanced ones of a later time, the struggle between good and evil arose. Evil is therefore not absolute evil, but misplaced good, something that was good in an earlier time. There, where earlier conditions did not as yet come into collision with later conditions, enduring Time rolled on, Time that was undifferentiated, not yet separated into individual moments.

... modern man has heard enough about guilt and sin. He is solely beset by his own bad conscience. And wants rather to know, how he is to reconcile himself with his own nature. How he is to love the enemy in his own heart and call the wolf his brother?"
- Ending Your Inner Civil War

Your comment brought to mind the movie Apocalypto and the opening quote - "A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within." The inner dynamics of human consciousness are always becoming outer realities and that's the history of human evolution. We can't gain a holistic appreciation for how this occurs from the perspective of the fragmented visible and transient occurrences, but only from the perspective of what is higher and more eternal.

We can't simply reverse Time and 'reset' to earlier modes of consciousness or outer existence. This cannot happen for the Cosmic organism as a whole, since it would be losing the degrees of freedom attained through the evolutionary progression. Yet parts of this organism can remain underdeveloped or become 'cancerous', as the case may be. That is further maladaptive orientation towards the currents of evolution which we need to avoid now more than ever. Of course we must always caution against trying to oversimply these dynamics with our concepts, which is all too common in our increasingly abstract, divisive times. Living spiritual knowledge is the precondition to doing these dynamics Justice, both in our understanding of them and our participation in their harmonization.

I liked the way one of the Steiner quotes referred to the way what is seen as an evil at one time can become understood differently later on. It brought to mind the ecological challenge of dealing with forest fires. For about 100 years the forestry paradigm held forest fire as an evil to be extinguished, which allowed an incredible fuel build-up on the on the forest floor that now feeds massive very hot burns. Nowadays, the forest managers are struggling to implement prescribed cool burns (wet season burning) to reduce the fuel loading, which is the way that indigenous peoples managed the forest. But I agree this embrace of old understandings is not a reverting to earlier times. Both indigenous and non-indigenous peoples continue to evolve into fuller understandings and the challenge to find better ways in the now.

[AshvinP]

No problem with you speaking your mind directly. I'm definitely a transcend-and-include person. Agree that we can't regress although catastrophe might trigger a reset or new mix from an earlier context (example: modern agriculture embracing the terra preta technologies of the pre-Columbian central Amazon).

Indeed, I mentioned before how our current epoch is a recapitulation of the ancient Egyptian. All of modern science is born from the seeds of Divine revelation at that time, but now consciously from within as scientific knowledge. We see this very clearly in a field like astronomy. The next epoch will be an echo of the ancient Persian epoch, when Zarathustra received the great Sun revelation concerning the principles of Light-Darkness, Good-Evil. We soon come to the task of beginning to redeem the out-of-phase, disharmonious principle of Darkness through living spiritual knowledge.

It is the same as regards great universal questions — a halt must be made somewhere; made at what lies at the fountain of the teaching of Zarathustra; at Time, calm, onflowing Time. Then, according to Zarathustra, there proceeded from Time, Ormuzd, the principle of Light, and Ahriman, the evil principle of Darkness. The profound meaning underlying this Iranian or old Persian idea is that the wickedness in the world, all that in its physical form is described as darkness, was not originally wicked, dark and evil. In the same way the wolf was originally good, but when left to itself it degenerated so that Ahrimanic forces could be active in it. To the Iranians or Persians evil came to pass through something that at one time — a time suited to it — was good, retaining its form on into a later age with which it was out of harmony. To them, all that was black and evil arose through a form which was good in one age, continuing on into a later age, instead of adapting itself to change. Through the clashing of such forms of being with the more advanced ones of a later time, the struggle between good and evil arose. Evil is therefore not absolute evil, but misplaced good, something that was good in an earlier time. There, where earlier conditions did not as yet come into collision with later conditions, enduring Time rolled on, Time that was undifferentiated, not yet separated into individual moments.

... modern man has heard enough about guilt and sin. He is solely beset by his own bad conscience. And wants rather to know, how he is to reconcile himself with his own nature. How he is to love the enemy in his own heart and call the wolf his brother?"
- Ending Your Inner Civil War

Your comment brought to mind the movie Apocalypto and the opening quote - "A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within." The inner dynamics of human consciousness are always becoming outer realities and that's the history of human evolution. We can't gain a holistic appreciation for how this occurs from the perspective of the fragmented visible and transient occurrences, but only from the perspective of what is higher and more eternal.

We can't simply reverse Time and 'reset' to earlier modes of consciousness or outer existence. This cannot happen for the Cosmic organism as a whole, since it would be losing the degrees of freedom attained through the evolutionary progression. Yet parts of this organism can remain underdeveloped or become 'cancerous', as the case may be. That is further maladaptive orientation towards the currents of evolution which we need to avoid now more than ever. Of course we must always caution against trying to oversimply these dynamics with our concepts, which is all too common in our increasingly abstract, divisive times. Living spiritual knowledge is the precondition to doing these dynamics Justice, both in our understanding of them and our participation in their harmonization.

I liked the way one of the Steiner quotes referred to the way what is seen as an evil at one time can become understood differently later on. It brought to mind the ecological challenge of dealing with forest fires. For about 100 years the forestry paradigm held forest fire as an evil to be extinguished, which allowed an incredible fuel build-up on the on the forest floor that now feeds massive very hot burns. Nowadays, the forest managers are struggling to implement prescribed cool burns (wet season burning) to reduce the fuel loading, which is the way that indigenous peoples managed the forest. But I agree this embrace of old understandings is not a reverting to earlier times. Both indigenous and non-indigenous peoples continue to evolve into fuller understandings and the challenge to find better ways in the now.

But notice it's the other way around - what is actually good (not only seen as good) for continued progress at an earlier time becomes evil at a later stage. This is a basic principle of evolution, whether secular or spiritual. Forms which don't adapt with the currents of evolution become a snare for humanity as a whole. In the case of spiritual evolution, we are speaking of modes of inner being i.e. relation to the higher worlds. And instead of these forms simply going "extinct", wiped from the face of existence, they become a rebellion against the higher worlds until they are later redeemed by the the sacrifices of those same higher worlds.

I agree, all too often moderns take some isolated phenomena in Nature and call it "evil", precisely because they give priority only to outer appearances. Then everything is evaluated as an atomized unit apart from its holistic influence, especially over broad temporal scales. Atheists, and sometimes modern mystics (BK has brought this up before), often use this as an argument against the existence of a personal and self-conscious God - "if He exists, why would he allow forest fires, earthquakes, volcanoes, etc.?" It's simply a projection of a static, atomized perspective onto Reality and then a judgment of Reality's moral worth based on that projection.

This can happen with cultural appearances too. We have so much identity politics now - racial this, gender that, matriarchy/patriarchy this, cultural appropriation that. It's all people confusing static outer appearances for the full meaningful significance of cultural institutions and developments. It just goes to show how much a lack of living and holistic spiritual knowledge is at the root of so many regressive attitudes today, which only end up ensuring the divisions which they outwardly claim to fight against, so to be seen as "virtuous" by others, again an obsession with outward appearances, remain in place much longer than necessary.

[Federica]

I agree, all too often moderns take some isolated phenomena in Nature and call it "evil", precisely because they give priority only to outer appearances. Then everything is evaluated as an atomized unit apart from its holistic influence, especially over broad temporal scales. Atheists, and sometimes modern mystics (BK has brought this up before), often use this as an argument against the existence of a personal and self-conscious God - "if He exists, why would he allow forest fires, earthquakes, volcanoes, etc.?" It's simply a projection of a static, atomized perspective onto Reality and then a judgment of Reality's moral worth based on that projection.

This can happen with cultural appearances too. We have so much identity politics now - racial this, gender that, matriarchy/patriarchy this, cultural appropriation that. It's all people confusing static outer appearances for the full meaningful significance of cultural institutions and developments. It just goes to show how much a lack of living and holistic spiritual knowledge is at the root of so many regressive attitudes today, which only end up ensuring the divisions which they outwardly claim to fight against, so to be seen as "virtuous" by others, again an obsession with outward appearances, remain in place much longer than necessary.

I agree completely with this viewpoint! Practically impossible though, to communicate it in society without creating colossal misunderstandings.
I can imagine that, even here, this has been automatically misunderstood by some.
It would be interesting to hear what Lou has to say about that, from his diversity and inclusion perspective (if this is an acceptable way to qualify it).

[Federica]

Thank you Lou!

Yes, that's how I understood your reference (I have looked a little, until I felt I'm lacking too much background to really enjoy the descriptions of the many encounters Dante makes on the slopes of the mount, however I did find a few interesting parallels).

On shedding the feelings of self righteousness I was wondering, how does it relate to being a 'transcend-and-include person'?

It compels me to be accepting of the fact that each person has a way and mission that fits them and plays a role in the larger process. Within the polarity some are defenders of the purity of a pole.

But I do get your drift. Attachment to an identity needs to be shed lest it becomes in Ashvin's motto of a step becoming a snare.

No drifts, Lou - when I said that I didn't know where I was going with these questions... I really meant it! But it's much appreciated that you answered : )

[Lou Gold]

It compels me to be accepting of the fact that each person has a way and mission that fits them and plays a role in the larger process. Within the polarity some are defenders of the purity of a pole.

But I do get your drift. Attachment to an identity needs to be shed lest it becomes as in Ashvin's motto a step becoming a snare.

No drifts, Lou - when I said that I didn't know where I was going with these questions... I really meant it! But it's much appreciated that you answered : )

OK Federica, not your drift but rather where I drifted in considering your words. I picked up a good lesson from it.

I do find that when I cling to some self-identity (ex: "I'm a transcendent-and-include guy"), I often find myself compelled to let go of it. That's my drift.