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[AshvinP]

PS - I don't agree with your characterization of scripture, and I think the writings of the New Testament are especially clear on how it is humanity's ongoing task to bring the created world of appearances to its completion. 

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of [f]corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.

To elaborate a bit here, it is true we shouldn't look for our fulfillment and liberation in the WC (or whatever we want to call it). Instead we are looking to fulfill and liberate the WC. This is precisely the path of developing 'sense-free' thinking, as Steiner refers to it. With the aid of our higher thinking, we can resonate with the supra-sensory impulses which should be brought back into the creation so as to bring it to more and more completion, giving birth to a new creation. Again, this isn't something discontinuous with what we are generally doing, unconsciously or semi-consciously, with our normal thinking in the spheres of culture - religion, philosophy, science, art. Who can deny that this cultural thinking has vastly structured the WC around us for many centuries now and made possible everything that we do intellectually on a daily basis? It's only that we need to become more self-conscious of this activity, which is what we often refer to as the 'Christ impulse'. When one resonates with the more holistic thinking perspective, he will find this impulse towards self-consciousness beautifully embedded everywhere in scripture.

[lorenzop]

PS - I don't agree with your characterization of scripture, and I think the writings of the New Testament are especially clear on how it is humanity's ongoing task to bring the created world of appearances to its completion. 

. . . and I wish they'd stop. Here in US and many other places in the West the Christian Right is intent on ensnaring their world in an authoritarian fascist regime.

[Federica]

Actually this is what I primarily learn about in this forum - the kind of obstacles that lie in souls towards deeper insight. In everyone here's defense I can say that without exception those writing in the forum are very intelligent people so the difficulties are rarely of technical character. It's much rather that the decisive factor are the subconscious antipathies towards certain ideas, which act like 'magnetic repulsion', even without the person knowing it (I think I've given before the video with the magnetic pendulum).

This is quite clear for anyone who has tried to convey, for example, BK's ideas to a materialist. It's not that the materialist is stupid. In fact, they are often very smart. The repulsion comes from deeper within the soul. I can speak from own experience here because I've been atheist for half my life. The truth is materialism has fought for centuries to liberate itself from anything spiritual which might have a say about how it is wise to conduct our life. Basically materialism has led to a point where the ego feels as the lone moral agency based on personal sympathies and antipathies, while morality itself simply doesn't exist in the foundations of reality, where we only have physical fields. Furthermore, it's greatly convenient that one considers their inner life to be fully private - whatever we secretly think or desire is our own business and has no effect on anything else. Only what proceeds from our bodily will has the power to affect the environment.

These are the 'benefits' that materialism has conquered for itself in the course of its development. Even though materialists (any myself in the past) would justify the worldview based on science, on a deeper level there's an epic struggle to keep the walls of the private bubble of consciousness impenetrable. Relatively few have the honesty to identify these feelings as the prime motivator for justifying the physicalist worldview. It is somewhat similar with spirituality which subscribes to the flat conception of a spiritual background within which fully distinct bubbles dissociate. When these people are presented with ideas such as the ones in the article Lou posted in the other thread (where our own being is seen as threads, made of smaller threads but at the same time also braided into much greater threads (beings)), things are once again rejected, not because people are not smart enough to grasp them but because they clash with deeper feelings.

On the part played by feeling versus thinking in the perpetuation of materialism:

This is quite clear for anyone who has tried to convey, for example, BK's ideas to a materialist. It's not that the materialist is stupid. In fact, they are often very smart. The repulsion comes from deeper within the soul.

Yes I tried that, and failed to even only scratch that wall of repulsion the materialist needs to twist their claws into, in perpetual fear of falling off 'into nothingness'. You wrote yesterday that BK’s work is valuable work because, through modern language, it brings modern people awareness of the idealist worldview of the past, that would otherwise be greatly difficult to grasp today, outside philosophical circles. With reference to the materialist’s usual strategy of justifying their worldview based on science, I think BK’s work brings an additional value to the table. It highlights the fact that “the business of science” can go on as usual with or without the materialistic worldview in the background. As BK used to put it “Science is about how reality behaves, not about what reality is”.


Hopefully this will help force materialism to eventually withdraw from that science-territory it can’t legitimately ascribe to its exclusive realm, and to reveal more of the real building blocks of that wall of repulsion, to admit more of those ‘benefits’: the moral landscape, of lack thereof, and the private bubble of consciousness, or lack of purity, as you earlier put it:

When a stranger eats with our spoon, most people will feel disgust if they have to use it afterwards. Deep within ourselves, in our epoch and culture, we feel similar disgust about the spiritual essence of others. Not everyone will admit this but it is so if we observe without prejudice. That's why there's a lot of speculation about what dissociation is but very little about how to overcome it. To overcome it one must realize that we're breathing the same spiritual air, that our thoughts and feelings pass as waves through the one inner space. Not everyone is willing to approach such knowledge. There are two directions which support the resistance. One is the fear of the spiritual world. This fear is usually masked as pride, which conceals the antipathy we feel if we were to find the inner being of all humans on the same side as ours. The other is shame. Believing that our inner world is a completely private sphere, a blackhole from which no light comes out, has led modern humanity to be completely indiscriminatory about the quality of thoughts and feelings that go through our soul. We simply believe that they have no significance except as our own fully private phenomena. This hasn't be so in the past when people still had fear of God and they knew that their soul is an open book for him. Today this negligence has built up as a secret feeling of shame for the forms we have bred in our souls.

We can't change the past and no one will condemn us for what we've done in our ignorance but we must set to work so that things change for the future. Purity is what allows the "I" to safely step out of its dissociative womb. And Love is what allows us to find our bearings in the new world.

But speaking of those ‘benefits’ materialism has conquered for itself in the course of its development, one question arises. Why giving everyone here, without exception, the credit of being very intelligent would be a statement in their defense? Sorry if I am misinterpreting, but does this not suggest that someone’s intelligence is somehow more valuable, more of a prized quality than their ability to ‘plumb’ their organization appropriately for apt management of feelings? Isn’t the tribute to this kind of intellectual intelligence, the kind that can brilliantly solve questions of technical character, another of the ‘benefits’ that materialism has won for itself over the last centuries?

[Cleric K]

But speaking of those ‘benefits’ materialism has conquered for itself in the course of its development, one question arises. Why giving everyone here, without exception, the credit of being very intelligent would be a statement in their defense? Sorry if I am misinterpreting, but does this not suggest that someone’s intelligence is somehow more valuable, more of a prized quality than their ability to ‘plumb’ their organization appropriately for apt management of feelings? Isn’t the tribute to this kind of intellectual intelligence, the kind that can brilliantly solve questions of technical character, another of the ‘benefits’ that materialism has won for itself over the last centuries?

I said that concretely in the context of the metaphor given earlier. I believe that hardly anyone has trouble to understand the metaphor of conscious phenomena bubbling up as electron-positron pairs, that ultimately annihilate back into the Cosmic potential. Since most people here are familiar with at least some rudimentary form of Buddhist thought for example, I think that hardly anyone would have trouble to understand the metaphor. But maybe I'm wrong, since there's not too much feedback anyway. It's a little like in the university when the lector at the end says "Are there any questions?" which is followed by graveyard silence. Then the lector says "Well, the lack of questions means one of two things: either everything is perfectly clear or nothing at all was understood. And by your looks, I would much rather bet it's the latter." (with this joke I don't want to leave the impression that I take myself as some teacher. In fact everyone here is my teacher and I learn a lot, even though maybe not in the traditional way)

[Federica]

But speaking of those ‘benefits’ materialism has conquered for itself in the course of its development, one question arises. Why giving everyone here, without exception, the credit of being very intelligent would be a statement in their defense? Sorry if I am misinterpreting, but does this not suggest that someone’s intelligence is somehow more valuable, more of a prized quality than their ability to ‘plumb’ their organization appropriately for apt management of feelings? Isn’t the tribute to this kind of intellectual intelligence, the kind that can brilliantly solve questions of technical character, another of the ‘benefits’ that materialism has won for itself over the last centuries?

I said that concretely in the context of the metaphor given earlier. I believe that hardly anyone has trouble to understand the metaphor of conscious phenomena bubbling up as electron-positron pairs, that ultimately annihilate back into the Cosmic potential. Since most people here are familiar with at least some rudimentary form of Buddhist thought for example, I think that hardly anyone would have trouble to understand the metaphor. But maybe I'm wrong, since there's not too much feedback anyway. It's a little like in the university when the lector at the end says "Are there any questions?" which is followed by graveyard silence. Then the lector says "Well, the lack of questions means one of two things: either everything is perfectly clear or nothing at all was understood. And by your looks, I would much rather bet it's the latter." (with this joke I don't want to leave the impression that I take myself as some teacher. In fact everyone here is my teacher and I learn a lot, even though maybe not in the traditional way)

Got it, Cleric : )
Not only you don’t have much feedback, but you can’t bet what was understood or not understood based on anyone’s look either. So you have to go the non traditional way : )

[AshvinP]

PS - I don't agree with your characterization of scripture, and I think the writings of the New Testament are especially clear on how it is humanity's ongoing task to bring the created world of appearances to its completion. 

. . . and I wish they'd stop. Here in US and many other places in the West the Christian Right is intent on ensnaring their world in an authoritarian fascist regime.

So we went from, 'this is nowhere to be found in scripture' to, 'it's to be found and is the source of all Western authoritarian fascism'? Could it be that your resistance to the idea of higher thinking as a means to enrich/transfigure the WC is mostly religio-political, rather than philosophical or scientific?

It's much rather that the decisive factor are the subconscious antipathies towards certain ideas, which act like 'magnetic repulsion', even without the person knowing it

These types of pendulum swings lessen once we investigate the deeper strata of thinking, so can we get back to that? It's my fault for responding to the religious comment, I suppose. Perhaps you are in the process of commenting on the observation of your 'present thinking', so I'll wait.

[lorenzop]

These types of pendulum swings lessen once we investigate the deeper strata of thinking, so can we get back to that? It's my fault for responding to the religious comment, I suppose. Perhaps you are in the process of commenting on the observation of your 'present thinking', so I'll wait.

I think I did above . . . to summarize: even if it were possible to enhance one's thinking to perceive Ideas\sentiments\moods in nature, it's not for me.
But as I've expressed many times before, I don't understand this particular aspect of your posts.
Having said this, I do believe there are increasingly subtle and delightful levels to reality, and for some this may take the form of devotion to a religious belief and practice, and for others, a devotion to the perfection and beauty of everything encountered.
I am not interested in sensing the Masculine, Feminine or The Fall and etc.

[AshvinP]

These types of pendulum swings lessen once we investigate the deeper strata of thinking, so can we get back to that? It's my fault for responding to the religious comment, I suppose. Perhaps you are in the process of commenting on the observation of your 'present thinking', so I'll wait.

I think I did above . . . to summarize: even if it were possible to enhance one's thinking to perceive Ideas\sentiments\moods in nature, it's not for me.
But as I've expressed many times before, I don't understand this particular aspect of your posts.
Having said this, I do believe there are increasingly subtle and delightful levels to reality, and for some this may take the form of devotion to a religious belief and practice, and for others, a devotion to the perfection and beauty of everything encountered.
I am not interested in sensing the Masculine, Feminine or The Fall and etc.

I asked about the Steiner quote, which points to why, when we engage our thinking, especially on this forum, we have the hardest time also noticing the activity itself. This is very much related to your observation that religions have cautioned not to get sucked into the WC, confusing it for our means of salvation. So the question is, are you able to discern how you, personally, are always getting sucked into the WC while you are thinking through these things, thereby failing to notice the deeper layers of supra-sensory thinking activity? I am asking if you can experience this reality within yourself, which is not a matter of it 'being for you' or 'not for you' (it is a reality, either way) and, if so, what do you think it implies, philosophically, scientifically or spiritually (it doesn't take any belief or 'higher cognition' to have this experience).

Another possible approach to this same question is to consider the hypnagogic and hypnopompic states, which Cleric also referenced on the other psychedelic thread. These give us a dim sense of what rich meaning is weaving through the 'background' of our waking consciousness as well. When we slip into sleep or from sleep back into wakefulness, if we try to remain conscious of the transition for as long as possible, we get a sense of what is always working into our thinking consciousness. Our sleep and dream life is always interwoven with our waking life. This activity doesn't go away when we open our eyes, yet it is obscured by sensory existence to the point that we forget it is still there in the background of all that we perceive, feel, think, and do.

Until one experientially discerns this reality, I don't see how they can make an informed decision as to whether it's not for them, because they aren't sure what "it" is.

[lorenzop]

Assuming for a moment there is some super sensory thinking occurring, and that I can access and manipulate this activity, what would be the advantage of swapping my existing WC with another WC?
There is nothing wrong with the WC I am currently provided, why should I raise a complaint and ask for an upgrade?
Yes my WC is provided-and I am every day grateful for it.

[AshvinP]

Assuming for a moment there is some super sensory thinking occurring, and that I can access and manipulate this activity, what would be the advantage of swapping my existing WC with another WC?
There is nothing wrong with the WC I am currently provided, why should I raise a complaint and ask for an upgrade?
Yes my WC is provided-and I am every day grateful for it.

Lorenzo,

You are making all of this unnecessarily abstract and externalized. For one thing, you keep saying "assuming this is true", which means you have not experienced it within yourself. A person who has burned their hand on a flame doesn't need to assume the flame is hot anymore. Thinking can only be supra sensory- thinking and thoughts are not spatial and therefore not visible with the physical senses - so the only question is whether you have experienced it to be and contemplated the significance of that? If not, then don't you imagine this could be an important experience to have before deciding what is best for you to pursue or not pursue?

Secondly, did you go from an infant to child to adolescent to adult, does your knowledge in certain areas increase over time, do you learn to do things more efficiently or artfully, does your memory of the recent past or anticipation of the near future grow stronger, does your understanding and appreciation of the world around you grow, do your feelings and thoughts for others grow more mature and fruitful? If you can say yes to any of those, or anything similar (or their opposites), you are always 'swapping existing WC with another WC'. It's called growth and evolution and life (or stagnation, devolution, and death) and it's always happening, for all of us. To discover the reality of one's deeper thinking simply makes us more conscious of how it's happening and thereby gives us more degrees of freedom to manage its unfoldment. The WC 'swapping' will continue to happen whether you are conscious of it or not.