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Any topics primarily focused on metaphysics can be discussed here, in a generally casual way, where conversations may take unexpected turns.
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AshvinP
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Re: This forum

Post by AshvinP »

Martin_ wrote: Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:06 pm
You have also avoided the additional opportunities given to you by Federica and myself on this thread, via the simple questions we asked.
Apologies. I must have missed these opportunities / simple questions. I was using my best judgement in focusing on what I perceived to be the biggest question marks. Could you please restate them.

My question is now, did you read/follow Cleric's last post and, if so, do you discern how he is not speaking of a metaphysical thesis or ontology for anyone to adopt, but a need to experience one's own intellectual thinking and (therefore) sensory experience in a way that has surely not been experienced before, and a viable path on which this can be done.

I would further suggest that, if anyone feels they perfectly followed along after first read, without the need to ask follow up questions and swirl the ideas around on their thinking palette, there's a good chance it has not been followed. Yet I am sure most can sense there is something of great significance to be understood. So I would also ask whether you agree and, if so, have any interest in doing so?
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
lorenzop
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Re: This forum

Post by lorenzop »

AshvinP wrote: Tue Sep 06, 2022 4:23 pm
Lorenzo,

The reason why it's cryptic is because you are trying to understand what we are saying from the traditional abstract metaphysical perspective. This perspective wants to behold everything as external objects, like images on a movie screen. The phenomenological perspective is quite opposite of this - it seeks to understand the concepts from within as living experience. If it is given concepts about 'hero', 'protagonist', 'villain', 'love story', etc. in the movie, it seeks to understand what those things mean in relation to its own soul-narrative of continuously transforming and evolving willing, feeling, and thinking activity; desires, feelings, thoughts. This cannot be presented in a comprehensible way using sound bites, lists of definitions, or anything similar in a few brief sentences, which is the M.O. for the standard metaphysical approach. People must exercise patience and active effort to follow the illustrations, metaphors, etc. with their own thinking, to imitate the thinking-gestures which went into forming the illustrations, like Federica has shown is quite possible.

"World Content" is simply a way of saying, the appearances of the world as they present to our living activity. It highlights the fact that, when we perceive and conceive the world, we are engaging our own meaningful inner activity to make that possible and we thereby observe the content in various ways which transform in relation to that inner activity. "Reality", on the other hand, means whatever the person using it wants it to mean, and usually that goes right back to abstract metaphysics, speculating about the "essences" of the world independent of our own inner activity. More importantly, the very obsession with the isolated word-forms we are using is an expression of that abstract metaphysical approach which is disconnected from inner activity. Instead of seeking a list of definitions for these word-forms, just try to sense the spirit of the message we are intending to convey with them.

The first-person thinking agency is what you were just using to gather meaning together which you intended to communicate, formulate that meaning into verbal thoughts, precipitate those verbal thoughts into written word-forms. We wouldn't be able to conceptualize anything, or coherently experience the world around us, if this thinking agency was absent. The metaphysical models you are seeking are a manifestation of that activity. We simply need to contemplate that activity deeply rather than get lost in the abstract content (the models) which results from that activity. Instead of debating the metaphysical models, we can livingly confront the inner thinking-gestures we perform to make the models. To put it frankly, how people approach "ontology" or "metaphysics" in academic circles has become practically mindless and worthless. Why?

Because they seek to center their Being in concepts about "reality", rather than experience the center of their Being in their concept-forming activity. The materialist wants to discover their Being in abstract perceptions of neurons, chromosomes, etc. which they treat as external to them.
Similarly, metaphysicians of all sort want to discover their Being in externalized concepts of 'consciousness', 'mind', 'God', etc. Why are there hard problems in philosophy? Because people have no sense that they fantasize that they are combining concepts and producing other concepts. The materialist thinks the concepts of neurons, puts the 'plus' sign between them, and places on the other side of the 'equal' sign the concept 'consciousness' - "neurons + more neurons = consciousness". This is the very same problem that the idealist faces when he tries to produce the alter's consciousness from the concept of MAL. The concept of our consciousness is taken from reality, from actual living experience, but the concept of MAL is abstract, we only have the thoughts about it.

Then if we put the instinctive MAL, which is only an abstract concept disconnected from living experience, on one side of the equation and we place the concept of our consciousness on the other side, imagining that somehow we produce the latter it in this way, deriving a viable explanation for it, we make the same fallacy as the materialist. To redeem these externalized concepts from their lifeless existence in the phantom layer of abstract cognition, we need to investigate the inner activity which is responsible for forming the concepts and weaving them together. That is the first-person thinking agency. It is That which weaves together the percepts-concepts of 'lightning' and 'thunder', for ex. Instead of abstractly speculating what 'essential' thing is behind the lightning and thunder, we can investigate That activity which connects the concepts together, irrespective of whether we know the 'essence' the concepts are pointing to.

Steiner wrote:The reason why it is impossible to observe thinking in the actual moment of its occurrence, is the very one which makes it possible for us to know it more immediately and more intimately than any other process in the world. Just because it is our own creation do we know the characteristic features of its course, the manner in which the process takes place. What in all other spheres of observation can be found only indirectly, namely, the relevant context and the relationship between the individual objects, is, in the case of thinking, known to us in an absolutely direct way. I do not on the face of it know why, for my observation, thunder follows lightning; but I know directly, from the very content of the two concepts, why my thinking connects the concept of thunder with the concept of lightning. It does not matter in the least whether I have the right concepts of lightning and thunder. The connection between those concepts that I do have is clear to me, and this through the very concepts themselves.

This transparent clearness concerning our thinking process is quite independent of our knowledge of the physiological basis of thinking. Here I am speaking of thinking in so far as we know it from the observation of our own spiritual activity. How one material process in my brain causes or influences another while I am carrying out a thinking operation, is quite irrelevant. What I observe about thinking is not what process in my brain connects the concept lightning with the concept thunder but what causes me to bring the two concepts into a particular relationship. My observation shows me that in linking one thought with another there is nothing to guide me but the content of my thoughts.

Contemporary science and philosophy (even mainstream spirituality) don't at all want to approach this point where thinking encounters itself. It is somewhat understandable - it's much more difficult to investigate something incessantly twisting and morphing. This is the great dilemma of the intellect. If it has to investigate itself in the way it feels comfortable with, it must deaden itself - it must freeze itself into immobile mineral forms which are convenient to look at. But this means that all living thinking must cease! The other alternative, where thinking livingly experiences itself in mobility and constant metamorphosis is quite impossible to grasp in static concepts and so it's considered unworthy for scientific exploration. Yet it is precisely in our thinking that we must look to get back into the living World Process - the only WP we can ever know.

We are indeed capable of beholding the mobile and living nature of thinking but we need concepts of another kind, which are fluid and living. Just as we can't learn to ride a bicycle or swim in the water by just holding on to abstract rules but must turn them into living, flowing experience, so the Imaginative experience of thinking is a skill that must be developed. We must learn to swim through the contours of meaning with our thinking. All of this can and has been done. If it hadn't been already done for centuries before us, we wouldn't be able to write any of this (FYI, much of this was adopted from one of Cleric's old posts). This should be a huge source of inspiration and optimism about our ability to not simply 'do ontology', but to live ontology.
I understand and agree with the bulk of this, and I think that most readers here would also agree. If I were to paraphrase . . .
'World Content' is how Reality appears to an individual finite mind. Lorenzo, Ashwin, a dog, cat, etc. are examples of a finite mind. 'First-person thinking' is the process of creating this appearance.
Note that both phrases 'World Content' and Reality have utility\usefullness . . . if you are suggesting there is only World Content (no Reality), then you are drifting towards some flavor of Solipsism and I likely won't follow there.
A Materialist might also agree with this and state that our knowing of the world is structured in our psycho-physisiology.
IOW the above is not so controversial.
In other posts you also speak of shared World Content, ie archetypes, etc. I think all Idealists have to be open to this.
Here is where I think we diverge . . . You and Cleric claim that spiritual development\evolution of an individual is in the enrichment of World Content, where my position would be 'OK if that's what you're into'.
My understanding of Great Teachers like Jesus and Buddha, and scripture generally, is that they consistently warn of the danger and futility of looking for fulfilment and liberation in World Content.
It's very possible I've misrepresented your thinking . . .
Now, it's not re the above that I find confusing about the bulk of your posts here in this forum . . . my confusion is with your use of term 'meaning'. You don't use the phrase in a traditional way such as: You understood my thoughts as such and such but I meant such and such . . .
You seem to be using the phrase 'meaning' as in: the enrichment of World Content such that our World Content conveys a meaning, mood or sentiment.
For example, I perceive the planet Mars, or a tree . . . and a sentiment\mood\meaning is conveyed in my World Content. Perhaps not only 'a meaning', but the Correct Meaning . . . for example; perceiving the planet Mars conveys strength of the Warrior.
Do I have this correct?
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Martin_
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Re: This forum

Post by Martin_ »

AshvinP wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 2:39 pm
Martin_ wrote: Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:06 pm
You have also avoided the additional opportunities given to you by Federica and myself on this thread, via the simple questions we asked.
Apologies. I must have missed these opportunities / simple questions. I was using my best judgement in focusing on what I perceived to be the biggest question marks. Could you please restate them.

My question is now, did you read/follow Cleric's last post and, if so, do you discern how he is not speaking of a metaphysical thesis or ontology for anyone to adopt, but a need to experience one's own intellectual thinking and (therefore) sensory experience in a way that has surely not been experienced before, and a viable path on which this can be done.
yep
I would further suggest that, if anyone feels they perfectly followed along after first read, without the need to ask follow up questions and swirl the ideas around on their thinking palette, there's a good chance it has not been followed. Yet I am sure most can sense there is something of great significance to be understood. So I would also ask whether you agree and, if so, have any interest in doing so?
I agree that it might be a really hard thing for many people to wrap their head around.
if so, have any interest in doing so?
Doing what? "Actively pursue the study of my own intellectual thinking? " (paraphrasing) Yes. I have great interest in doing so.
"I don't understand." /Unknown
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Federica
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Re: This forum

Post by Federica »

Martin_ wrote: Tue Sep 06, 2022 10:18 pm (...)
Sure, if you want to phrase it like that, it's only one kind of feedback. lol.
It's like saying that I only like one type of fruit, the type that isn't bananas.
Or only one type of music, the type that isn't Michael Jackson. (God forbid(!))
But whatever. Minor point in the scope of things.

Yes, sorry. Because I locate all the richness and variety within the “one thing” then I tend to put all the other fruits that are not bananas in the same basket - I see them as the various dead ends in the labyrinth Cleric speaks of at the beginning of his latest post - hence I call them ‘one type’. I do realize they are not exactly the same. Glad we have moved beyond this minor point.

Been there. Done that. Got the T-shirt. Not doing it again.

What if this T-shirt is precisely what got you side-tracked (=not doing it again)? It’s actually a great metaphor you came up with. When I try on a worldview as I would try on a T-shirt, that’s ...dualism?
No sorry sorry sorry… Wait. I am only trying to desensitize this, all in all, trivial word. I hope Lorenzo is reading here - when it’s spoken of assuming a first-person perspective, it’s not possible to interpret that as: “Let’s go there, let’s do that. If it’s interesting enough, let’s get the T-shirt. I might wear it again some day. It was an interesting perspective, first-person, done that. Not doing it again just yet, but there are many interesting and important things there, I'm not disgusted”. This approach is just not possible. If this is how one reads the invitation 'let's take a first-person perspective' it will not end well. So dualism is basically when we think that we can have both looks. One time we wear the “one-thing” t-shirt, and it’s a cool look, but later we switch to, say, the MOQ one, also great, and it opens up to a different discussion where we want to keep the one-thing out of the equation. This approach is a dead end.
Another way to say it is: it goes wrong when we state that all reality is mental/of thought-nature, but later, in the actual workings of our reflections, we slip back (without realizing it) into a mindset where we proceed as if reality were physical, meaning out there on its own, separate, without we/MAL/other conscious realities having any role in bringing it about. We do that because of habit, social pressure, difficulty with living up to the idealist conception, whatever. And when we do that, we are slipping into dualism (us-here and reality-there are two separate things) without realizing it. It’s as simple as that at its core.

I am putting on pause here, because I imagine you know all that, and might not have the patience for reading along. Although I do wonder what those interesting things are, that you believe are important in Steiner/all Cleric and Ashvin speak of, that you can put on the side the following day and exclude from your focus. Because in my view, when we realize that we are existing from a place of first-person perspective/non-dualism, we cannot step out of it again. We just know we’ve always been there. But, I am not going to ask you. I prefer to save your patience for what comes now : )

I'm not sure you realize this, but this forum is essentially coming out of a war where emotions were high and pages after pages were spent on various specifics re:Steineranism (for the lack of a better term).

I'm not trying to be sibylline. I'm trying to word myself carefully, only saying what I truly believe, and limiting myself to the "tip of the iceberg". I don't want to go into more detail for the simple reason that I fear that "all hell" would break loose again.

If you really want to understand the current state of this place, I think you need to check out the historical posts, but I dont want to point out any specifics for fear of appearing partial. Actually, scr*w that :-) here's an example where I essentially lose my sh*t viewtopic.php?t=657 .
After exchanges like that, maybe you can understand why I'm hesitant to engage again?

I’ve checked the whole "music show” you have linked. Great idea to provide an example, if more come to mind, please link. I can easily imagine how such a conversion can stir up emotions. I surely can, although the traces of that ‘war’ in the conversation itself, for an external reader like me, are not as strong as it must have felt back then. I am confident you would get a similar sense today, if you were to read through the exchanges again. From an external viewpoint, the absolute highlights of that 'ferocious' exchange amount to Lou calling Ashvin “arrogant”, Ashvin replying “that's disingenuous” then telling you both that “you don’t realize you have created dualism” by scooping the human factor out of the one mental reality, as an ‘us-here thing' (see above) which creates human music, separating it from ‘reality-out-there’ that makes ‘earth wind and fire’ music (I know Ashvin wouldn't put it in this exact language). To which you replied, "hey I was not scooping, I put an ‘if’ in my sentence and by the way I don’t care a iota if someone calls me dualist". That was basically it. Which is not to deny the unpleasant high emotions. So yes, I can understand why you are hesitant. Although, I'm under the impression that Ashvin back then had a more 'summary voice' than he has today, and for sure you too have changed, so I doubt you would experience that 'all hell would break loose again' if you had you go there again today.


But regardless of that, here’s the thing. As I see it, there is actually no way to avoid the emotional discomfort. Please believe me I have also felt discomfort in conversations here, and I'm sure it will happen again. But it is worth it, it's the price to pay for learning to do our job, moving forward in our understanding of ‘everything’. It doesn’t matter if it’s in a discussion here, in confronting our own inconsistencies in reflection, or else. This cannot be an amusing hobby, it will be challenging. It’s about making sense of reality and ourselves with it! It’s our main job, actually the only job we are called to do. It will be challenging, it has to be, and there’s no way we can make it into a walk in the park.
And I don't think it helps to try to limit oneself to the tip of the iceberg, hesitating to engage, because sooner or later we will have to plunge anyway, so it’s better to do it willingly and on our own terms. By the way, that’s another fitting metaphor you have found, because when we stay on the tip of the iceberg, we actually confine ourselves to the realm of first-look appearances. We don’t want to look under the surface. But tackling the part underwater just can't be avoided, and in this sense I think it’s an incredible chance that we are sharing this forum, where we can go about it in a relatively smooth way. Unless we fail to recognize the opportunity. That would be sad… The iceberg really is a great metaphor…
Last edited by Federica on Wed Sep 07, 2022 4:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
lorenzop
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Re: This forum

Post by lorenzop »

Martin_ wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 3:46 pm
AshvinP wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 2:39 pm
Martin_ wrote: Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:06 pm
Apologies. I must have missed these opportunities / simple questions. I was using my best judgement in focusing on what I perceived to be the biggest question marks. Could you please restate them.

My question is now, did you read/follow Cleric's last post and, if so, do you discern how he is not speaking of a metaphysical thesis or ontology for anyone to adopt, but a need to experience one's own intellectual thinking and (therefore) sensory experience in a way that has surely not been experienced before, and a viable path on which this can be done.
yep
I would further suggest that, if anyone feels they perfectly followed along after first read, without the need to ask follow up questions and swirl the ideas around on their thinking palette, there's a good chance it has not been followed. Yet I am sure most can sense there is something of great significance to be understood. So I would also ask whether you agree and, if so, have any interest in doing so?
I agree that it might be a really hard thing for many people to wrap their head around.
if so, have any interest in doing so?
Doing what? "Actively pursue the study of my own intellectual thinking? " (paraphrasing) Yes. I have great interest in doing so.
I don't think this is controversial - all human beings wake up each day with full intentions of deriving as much joy and happiness for themselves and for those they love . . . using the terms of Ashwin and Cleric, we all desire a rich and satisfying World Content.
All professions, blacksmiths, merchants, musicians and artists get up each day with this intent . . . perhaps we don't have knowledge on how to do this correctly, but the intention is there.
The question is this: Is there such a 'thing' as a perfect World Content'?
Maybe.
And, is the purpose of intellect to derive this perfect World Content?
No - Scripture is quite consistent that liberation does not come from World Content, even a Perfect World Content.
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Federica
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Re: This forum

Post by Federica »

Cleric K wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 7:38 am Here's my take on the issue.

Imagine being on a forum where people primarily discuss physicalist theories of consciousness. Then if someone tries to point out that inner experience is the actual given in the mystery of existence, soon there will be complains "This forum was about many things - neurons, microtubules, fields, dimensions, wind tunnels - there're endless possibilities which may explain how consciousness arises out of the physical. Now it's only about one thing - someone trying to point out that spiritual experience is more immediate and certain fact than the existence of a distinct inanimate physical world on the opaque side of subjectivity."

This has been pointed out several times. People here should be able to relate to this example. It's about certain maturation of consciousness. It's like rising to a hill and seeing from above that the labyrinth below has no exit, while others still down there say "You fool, there are so many more possible unexplored corridors, you're just lazy."

The matter is such that intellectual idealism has run its course more than a century ago. This is transparently clear for anyone who climbs the next hill and sees that the metaphysical systems are yet another intellectual labyrinth that never leads beyond itself. And this is not to say that all these systems of thought were wrong or unnecessary side tracks of evolution - quite the contrary - these are stages through which humanity's consciousness evolves. They cannot be skipped. But today we're already in a position to understand that they are really stages, metamorphosing into one another, just like leaves of a plant unfold one by one.

At present, the intellect has driven itself into a corner. Or we may say it's pressing its back into the ceiling. I'm sorry to say that but it's more likely that something of practical value will come out of a neuroscience lab than from the Essentia foundation. And this holds true for all philosophy, metaphysics, spirituality that tries to extract the essence of reality as some clever arrangement of thoughts.

This observation doesn't even require some especially deep insight. It's more or less what most people already feel anyway. The quick and dirty solution is for the intellect to simply negate itself. Clearly, this doesn't really lead much further. It simply replaces the imagined vacuum of physical space with the spiritual vacuum of universal consciousness, where virtual potential emerges like manifested electron-positron pairs, only to quickly annihilate back into the Cosmic foam.

So this is the basic mood we find everywhere: yes - many will say - the thinking ego is a transient illusion, completely opaque to the potential from whence it emerges. It exists only within the manifested phenomena. It can know of deeper reality only as someone staring at a blackhole, capable of following phenomena only till the event horizon. When the intellect negates itself it remains in pure feeling which the same that intellect chooses to call the spiritual vacuum/plenum.

So basically we have people coming here, overly enthusiastic about Bernardo's work, without really knowing that even though clothed in modern terminology, the mode of cognition itself has already been thoroughly explored by the German Idealists of the 18th and 19th century. And this is not to criticize BK. It's actually valuable work because modern people (not speaking of amateur or professional philosophers) would have the greatest difficulty entering the mindset and language of the idealists of the past, so rising awareness to such a worldview through modern language is indispensable.

Yet soon after the initial euphory subsides, one begins to realize that not much has really changed - "OK, the world is mental in nature but now what?" And for most there are two basic paths to pursue. One is to continue exploring the intellectual labyrinth with the faith that maybe just behind that corner some ingenious arrangement of thought-pieces will be found which will solve everything. The other is based on the realization that nothing will ever be solved in this way so it's better to just annihilate the polarized intellectual phenomena back into their virtual state. Then there's also the mixture of two, where one accepts the marginal existence of the manifested intellect, yet some value is seen also in the arrangements of thoughts as long as they somehow convince the intellect that the highest wisdom consists into it negating itself and plunging into pure inexplicable experiencing. It's interesting to note that even BK's career so far exemplifies this archetypal pattern - starting overly enthusiastically, then gradually becoming disillusioned by the inability of the intellect to penetrate its depths (basically Schop's blind Will, which in modern terminology can be called the virtual/unmanifested potential of the One Universal Consciousness), thus analytical idealism has become simply another intellectual ladder which leads thinking to the point where it must negate itself in hope to annihilate into the inexplicable but true reality.

In this forum there is an attempt to simply indicate that this final frontier encountered by the intellect is only a threshold leading to another stage of cognition. Endless attempts have been made to explain what the nature of this cognition is. In the context of this post we can picture that in yet another metaphor. The intellect accepts that its thoughts emerge from the virtual state metaphorically as electron-positron pairs, yet when raising the question of what the 'wavefunction' that guides this process is, on quickly declares it to belong to the realm of the dark instinctive nature of MAL. But through the proper meditative concentration on the very process of thoughts willed into emergence from the virtual state, we gradually come to know that there's a non-intellectual (in the sense not thinking in sequences of thought-pieces) yet fully self-conscious cognitive activity which guides this process of emergence. Through this concentration we awaken to a higher stratum of our being where our spiritual activity weaves in the sympathies, antipathies, and meaning, through which, if I can use the expression, we steer the unfoldment of our states of being. Then we no longer think instinctively about what reality is but begin to awaken right into the forces that shape reality - starting from the forces that shape our own inner life. Gradually we come to realize that the virtual state is not at all inexplicable but consists of structured and fully conscious layers of spiritual activity, which seem to have their coherent personalities, as it were. We don't simply perceive these depths as some additional sensory perceptions, like some exotic color which we confront with our intellect, but by evolving our own thinking spiritual activity into becoming self-similar to the higher order spiritual activities which weave the hierarchical (in the sense of musical or linguistic) structure of the dreamscape.

This is the critical threshold at which humanity finds itself today. So we basically either continue to endlessly explore the intellectual labyrinths, or we decide that annihilating the intellect is the highest achievement on Earth (anything else, if there's anything at all, to be expected only after death), or we realize that we've reached a point where we need to raise in consciousness and begin participating fully consciously along the gradient of manifestation. Not only at the level of final 'collapse of the wavefunction' but along the depth which shapes it through fully conscious spiritual activity.

Seen in this way, longing for the times when there were so many other things, is like grieving for all those kinds of distractions that were keeping the intellect happily engaged. The troublesome 'one thing' is not about reducing the richness of existence to one thing but only point at the one direction which leads to even greater richness of existence. In fact, such richness and lucidity, in comparison to which our whole former Earthly life seems only as a dim dream.

As a final note I would like to point out that all said above hasn't and need not be related in any way to Steiner. No special terminology needed, only metaphors based on concepts that any relatively educated person of our age should be familiar with (like electron, positron, wavefunction, etc.) All that is needed is for one to be relatively conscious of the historical process in which we're placed. Questions such as the above should come completely naturally for anyone who can encompass the state of the world with their gaze. These are the pressing issues of our times, so to speak. And if after this one still wants to call such ideas Steineriaism or any other -ism, then it simply means they are still wandering the intellectual labyrinth and feel the need to put labels on every corridor. Such a person is not yet willing to go in a perpendicular direction and investigate the real forces that weave the very being who puts the labels and tries to classify the corridors, or even negates itself.

If I try to imagine how a representative follower of analytical idealism, or a relatively educated person would make sense of what you express here, as they arrive to this forum, the impression I have is that you are expecting too much. Being able to encompass with our gaze the historical process in which we are placed is not that common. I don't think it's easily accessible to just any relatively educated person. I see this around me in others, and I also see it in how I had to work out my own way towards gaining some perspective, in privileged conditions. So I can imagine those who are trying to do it in less privileged ones. I suspect a majority of people would not get what is meant with "intellectual idealism" "manifested intellect" "the intellect negates itself", "virtual state". Sometimes it's laziness, or mental chronic fatigue, but more often it is a screaming lack of tools, of breadth of reasoning, thinking is stiff and for many, metaphors are a challenging way of bridging concepts. They work best in static form, but if you try to set a metaphor in movement, many people won't easily follow…
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
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AshvinP
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Re: This forum

Post by AshvinP »

Federica wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 5:25 pm
Cleric K wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 7:38 am Here's my take on the issue.

Imagine being on a forum where people primarily discuss physicalist theories of consciousness. Then if someone tries to point out that inner experience is the actual given in the mystery of existence, soon there will be complains "This forum was about many things - neurons, microtubules, fields, dimensions, wind tunnels - there're endless possibilities which may explain how consciousness arises out of the physical. Now it's only about one thing - someone trying to point out that spiritual experience is more immediate and certain fact than the existence of a distinct inanimate physical world on the opaque side of subjectivity."

This has been pointed out several times. People here should be able to relate to this example. It's about certain maturation of consciousness. It's like rising to a hill and seeing from above that the labyrinth below has no exit, while others still down there say "You fool, there are so many more possible unexplored corridors, you're just lazy."

The matter is such that intellectual idealism has run its course more than a century ago. This is transparently clear for anyone who climbs the next hill and sees that the metaphysical systems are yet another intellectual labyrinth that never leads beyond itself. And this is not to say that all these systems of thought were wrong or unnecessary side tracks of evolution - quite the contrary - these are stages through which humanity's consciousness evolves. They cannot be skipped. But today we're already in a position to understand that they are really stages, metamorphosing into one another, just like leaves of a plant unfold one by one.

At present, the intellect has driven itself into a corner. Or we may say it's pressing its back into the ceiling. I'm sorry to say that but it's more likely that something of practical value will come out of a neuroscience lab than from the Essentia foundation. And this holds true for all philosophy, metaphysics, spirituality that tries to extract the essence of reality as some clever arrangement of thoughts.

This observation doesn't even require some especially deep insight. It's more or less what most people already feel anyway. The quick and dirty solution is for the intellect to simply negate itself. Clearly, this doesn't really lead much further. It simply replaces the imagined vacuum of physical space with the spiritual vacuum of universal consciousness, where virtual potential emerges like manifested electron-positron pairs, only to quickly annihilate back into the Cosmic foam.

So this is the basic mood we find everywhere: yes - many will say - the thinking ego is a transient illusion, completely opaque to the potential from whence it emerges. It exists only within the manifested phenomena. It can know of deeper reality only as someone staring at a blackhole, capable of following phenomena only till the event horizon. When the intellect negates itself it remains in pure feeling which the same that intellect chooses to call the spiritual vacuum/plenum.

So basically we have people coming here, overly enthusiastic about Bernardo's work, without really knowing that even though clothed in modern terminology, the mode of cognition itself has already been thoroughly explored by the German Idealists of the 18th and 19th century. And this is not to criticize BK. It's actually valuable work because modern people (not speaking of amateur or professional philosophers) would have the greatest difficulty entering the mindset and language of the idealists of the past, so rising awareness to such a worldview through modern language is indispensable.

Yet soon after the initial euphory subsides, one begins to realize that not much has really changed - "OK, the world is mental in nature but now what?" And for most there are two basic paths to pursue. One is to continue exploring the intellectual labyrinth with the faith that maybe just behind that corner some ingenious arrangement of thought-pieces will be found which will solve everything. The other is based on the realization that nothing will ever be solved in this way so it's better to just annihilate the polarized intellectual phenomena back into their virtual state. Then there's also the mixture of two, where one accepts the marginal existence of the manifested intellect, yet some value is seen also in the arrangements of thoughts as long as they somehow convince the intellect that the highest wisdom consists into it negating itself and plunging into pure inexplicable experiencing. It's interesting to note that even BK's career so far exemplifies this archetypal pattern - starting overly enthusiastically, then gradually becoming disillusioned by the inability of the intellect to penetrate its depths (basically Schop's blind Will, which in modern terminology can be called the virtual/unmanifested potential of the One Universal Consciousness), thus analytical idealism has become simply another intellectual ladder which leads thinking to the point where it must negate itself in hope to annihilate into the inexplicable but true reality.

In this forum there is an attempt to simply indicate that this final frontier encountered by the intellect is only a threshold leading to another stage of cognition. Endless attempts have been made to explain what the nature of this cognition is. In the context of this post we can picture that in yet another metaphor. The intellect accepts that its thoughts emerge from the virtual state metaphorically as electron-positron pairs, yet when raising the question of what the 'wavefunction' that guides this process is, on quickly declares it to belong to the realm of the dark instinctive nature of MAL. But through the proper meditative concentration on the very process of thoughts willed into emergence from the virtual state, we gradually come to know that there's a non-intellectual (in the sense not thinking in sequences of thought-pieces) yet fully self-conscious cognitive activity which guides this process of emergence. Through this concentration we awaken to a higher stratum of our being where our spiritual activity weaves in the sympathies, antipathies, and meaning, through which, if I can use the expression, we steer the unfoldment of our states of being. Then we no longer think instinctively about what reality is but begin to awaken right into the forces that shape reality - starting from the forces that shape our own inner life. Gradually we come to realize that the virtual state is not at all inexplicable but consists of structured and fully conscious layers of spiritual activity, which seem to have their coherent personalities, as it were. We don't simply perceive these depths as some additional sensory perceptions, like some exotic color which we confront with our intellect, but by evolving our own thinking spiritual activity into becoming self-similar to the higher order spiritual activities which weave the hierarchical (in the sense of musical or linguistic) structure of the dreamscape.

This is the critical threshold at which humanity finds itself today. So we basically either continue to endlessly explore the intellectual labyrinths, or we decide that annihilating the intellect is the highest achievement on Earth (anything else, if there's anything at all, to be expected only after death), or we realize that we've reached a point where we need to raise in consciousness and begin participating fully consciously along the gradient of manifestation. Not only at the level of final 'collapse of the wavefunction' but along the depth which shapes it through fully conscious spiritual activity.

Seen in this way, longing for the times when there were so many other things, is like grieving for all those kinds of distractions that were keeping the intellect happily engaged. The troublesome 'one thing' is not about reducing the richness of existence to one thing but only point at the one direction which leads to even greater richness of existence. In fact, such richness and lucidity, in comparison to which our whole former Earthly life seems only as a dim dream.

As a final note I would like to point out that all said above hasn't and need not be related in any way to Steiner. No special terminology needed, only metaphors based on concepts that any relatively educated person of our age should be familiar with (like electron, positron, wavefunction, etc.) All that is needed is for one to be relatively conscious of the historical process in which we're placed. Questions such as the above should come completely naturally for anyone who can encompass the state of the world with their gaze. These are the pressing issues of our times, so to speak. And if after this one still wants to call such ideas Steineriaism or any other -ism, then it simply means they are still wandering the intellectual labyrinth and feel the need to put labels on every corridor. Such a person is not yet willing to go in a perpendicular direction and investigate the real forces that weave the very being who puts the labels and tries to classify the corridors, or even negates itself.

If I try to imagine how a representative follower of analytical idealism, or a relatively educated person would make sense of what you express here, as they arrive to this forum, the impression I have is that you are expecting too much. Being able to encompass with our gaze the historical process in which we are placed is not that common. I don't think it's easily accessible to just any relatively educated person. I see this around me in others, and I also see it in how I had to work out my own way towards gaining some perspective, in privileged conditions. So I can imagine those who are trying to do it in less privileged ones. I suspect a majority of people would not get what is meant with "intellectual idealism" "manifested intellect" "the intellect negates itself", "virtual state". Sometimes it's laziness, or mental chronic fatigue, but more often it is a screaming lack of tools, of breadth of reasoning, thinking is stiff and for many, metaphors are a challenging way of bridging concepts. They work best in static form, but if you try to set a metaphor in movement, many people won't easily follow…

After a guy brought up Jung's active imagination on BK's discord server and I mentioned Steiner in response, that same day he decided to order some of Steiner's books and then recorded a podcast about it. I haven't listened to it yet (linked below), but the general point is, no one who doesn't take the initiative like you did or this guy did will understand anything we write, no matter what terminology we use or what metaphors we employ. They must become positively enthusiastic about making their intellectual life uncomfortable and frightfully lacking of tools which, despite that lacking, do exist in the higher perspective above the intellectual labyrinth. This is what all the great religions have also tried to instill in their emphasis on the 'fear of God', humility, confession/repentance, faith, etc. It can all be understood in the framework of evolution - a being which has no motivation to recognize its limitations in the face of Cosmic realities and trust they can be overcome will never adapt to changing conditions and evolve. At our current stage of evolution, there is very little utility, even negative utility, in playing down to expectations, trying to come up with the 'perfect' terminology and what not. That runs the risk of making people feel like they have understood, or even attained, the higher perspective, when instead they have simply brought the concept of the higher perspective down into the labyrinth. I have also learned that through quite a few interactions online. People really need to sense the inner contradiction between that they are doing with their thinking, and what they they are thinking about, and the fact that it useless trying to intellectual resolve this contradiction from within the labyrinth.

In that one word "Adaptability," we have the great secret of advancement or retardation. All progress depends upon whether an evolving being is flexible, adaptable and pliable, so as to be able to accommodate itself to new conditions, or whether it is crystallized, set, and incapable of alteration. Adaptability is the quality which makes for progress, whether an entity is at a high or a low stage of evolution. Lack of it is the cause of the retardation of the spirit and retrogression of the Form. This applies to the past, present and future, the division of the qualified and the unqualified, thus, being made with the exact and impersonal justice of the law of Consequence. There never was, or ever shall be any arbitrary distinction made between the "sheep" and the "goats."

Heindel , Max. The Rosicrucian Cosmo Conception




To be clear, I'm not saying the initiative must be delving into Steiner or anyone else. In fact, that the guy above immediately rushed into Steiner and making a podcast makes me feel like he is inclined to ignore the most important step, which is exactly as Cleric conveyed in the metaphor, of experiencing the deeper strata of thinking activity which structures our intellectual labyrinth. Thats why I now try to point to PoF or something similar first, and if I were more imaginatively developed, I would incline towards more of the metaphorical, illustrative approach, which are simply new ways of presenting the core phenomenology of cognition.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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Federica
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Re: This forum

Post by Federica »

AshvinP wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 1:07 am After a guy brought up Jung's active imagination on BK's discord server and I mentioned Steiner in response, that same day he decided to order some of Steiner's books and then recorded a podcast about it. I haven't listened to it yet (linked below), but the general point is, no one who doesn't take the initiative like you did or this guy did will understand anything we write, no matter what terminology we use or what metaphors we employ. They must become positively enthusiastic about making their intellectual life uncomfortable and frightfully lacking of tools which, despite that lacking, do exist in the higher perspective above the intellectual labyrinth. This is what all the great religions have also tried to instill in their emphasis on the 'fear of God', humility, confession/repentance, faith, etc. It can all be understood in the framework of evolution - a being which has no motivation to recognize its limitations in the face of Cosmic realities and trust they can be overcome will never adapt to changing conditions and evolve. At our current stage of evolution, there is very little utility, even negative utility, in playing down to expectations, trying to come up with the 'perfect' terminology and what not. That runs the risk of making people feel like they have understood, or even attained, the higher perspective, when instead they have simply brought the concept of the higher perspective down into the labyrinth. I have also learned that through quite a few interactions online. People really need to sense the inner contradiction between that they are doing with their thinking, and what they they are thinking about, and the fact that it useless trying to intellectual resolve this contradiction from within the labyrinth.

In that one word "Adaptability," we have the great secret of advancement or retardation. All progress depends upon whether an evolving being is flexible, adaptable and pliable, so as to be able to accommodate itself to new conditions, or whether it is crystallized, set, and incapable of alteration. Adaptability is the quality which makes for progress, whether an entity is at a high or a low stage of evolution. Lack of it is the cause of the retardation of the spirit and retrogression of the Form. This applies to the past, present and future, the division of the qualified and the unqualified, thus, being made with the exact and impersonal justice of the law of Consequence. There never was, or ever shall be any arbitrary distinction made between the "sheep" and the "goats."

Heindel , Max. The Rosicrucian Cosmo Conception




To be clear, I'm not saying the initiative must be delving into Steiner or anyone else. In fact, that the guy above immediately rushed into Steiner and making a podcast makes me feel like he is inclined to ignore the most important step, which is exactly as Cleric conveyed in the metaphor, of experiencing the deeper strata of thinking activity which structures our intellectual labyrinth. Thats why I now try to point to PoF or something similar first, and if I were more imaginatively developed, I would incline towards more of the metaphorical, illustrative approach, which are simply new ways of presenting the core phenomenology of cognition.

Yes, one must be positively enthusiastic about becoming intellectually uncomfortable, emotionally also, and the very first impulse must emerge from within. I understand that more terminology and concepts would be more of the same, never adding up to give access to any new dimension. But I am still tempted to think that, because one has to go through that intellectual ladder anyway, in the context of this forum for instance, there's maybe still something to strive for, in the particular way thought-pieces are arranged and brought forward, which is inseparable from terminology and intellectual concepts themselves - you taught me that. Not making it as much about lowering expectations, as about having the intention to infuse the thought arrangement with something else, and let it fly, so to speak. This could be oriented towards 'playing the player not the cards' or towards using language creatively. Both ways can affect terminology. Recently, that's the intention I have been trying to bring to my work, and the various discussions I have in that context, of course with a much easier goal than helping people access higher cognition.


Thanks for the podcast, I have enjoyed it! It’s tangible that this guy has discovered an ideal and an emotional strong connection with the readings, searching for a resonance with Jung’s active imagination and his own, part of which has a religious impulse. Your indication to him was nailed enough to make him go beyond his initial views, or gut reactions, admittedly prejudiced against words such as ‘occult’ and ‘esoteric’. It’s interesting to notice how, reading out loud sentence by sentence, he comes to grips with the fact that what Steiner was speaking of couldn't be more incompatible with leading a cult, indoctrinating people. That’s important to him as it seems. I guess many could appreciate this podcast (Anthony, if you are reading, maybe you’d like it) even if it’s a bit long. Apart from the sometimes annoying common approach to anything in terms of how-to, or 'the easy step-by-step guide to…’ that he succumbs to, much of what he says seems to me well-stated, personal, easy to follow. Well there’s dualism in the background. He probably couldn’t resist going to this other book he's reading from, rather than to PoF.

I understand when you say that you recommend PoF first. However it only works with people, like me, who have a preference for squaring the playground first, starting from the ground up, by setting the stage first, minimizing the risk of leaving unaccounted bits and pieces on the side. It’s a deductive, principle-first approach. This guy has more of an inductive, application-first approach, or how-to. He was primarily interested in finding resonance with one thing, his exploration of imaginative meditation. He probably wouldn’t have endured reading PoF as a preliminary stage, but maybe now he will.
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
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Re: This forum

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lorenzop wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 3:09 pm I understand and agree with the bulk of this, and I think that most readers here would also agree. If I were to paraphrase . . .
'World Content' is how Reality appears to an individual finite mind. Lorenzo, Ashwin, a dog, cat, etc. are examples of a finite mind. 'First-person thinking' is the process of creating this appearance.
Note that both phrases 'World Content' and Reality have utility\usefullness . . . if you are suggesting there is only World Content (no Reality), then you are drifting towards some flavor of Solipsism and I likely won't follow there.
A Materialist might also agree with this and state that our knowing of the world is structured in our psycho-physisiology.
IOW the above is not so controversial.
In other posts you also speak of shared World Content, ie archetypes, etc. I think all Idealists have to be open to this.
Here is where I think we diverge . . . You and Cleric claim that spiritual development\evolution of an individual is in the enrichment of World Content, where my position would be 'OK if that's what you're into'.
My understanding of Great Teachers like Jesus and Buddha, and scripture generally, is that they consistently warn of the danger and futility of looking for fulfilment and liberation in World Content.
It's very possible I've misrepresented your thinking . . .
Now, it's not re the above that I find confusing about the bulk of your posts here in this forum . . . my confusion is with your use of term 'meaning'. You don't use the phrase in a traditional way such as: You understood my thoughts as such and such but I meant such and such . . .
You seem to be using the phrase 'meaning' as in: the enrichment of World Content such that our World Content conveys a meaning, mood or sentiment.
For example, I perceive the planet Mars, or a tree . . . and a sentiment\mood\meaning is conveyed in my World Content. Perhaps not only 'a meaning', but the Correct Meaning . . . for example; perceiving the planet Mars conveys strength of the Warrior.
Do I have this correct?

Let's forget about the terms 'world content' and 'meaning'. It's not that important. We could just as easily call it phenomenal manifestations, world appearances, 'stuff we perceive and conceive in the world' (both visible and invisible, like the air, the force of gravity, our inner experiences). I think Cleric at one point started using WC and I picked it up to remain consistent. At another point, I switched from 'idea' to 'meaning' because I felt it may be more clear. On a more philosophically inclined forum, as in one where people are familiar with German idealism for ex., we would use different terms. What we are speaking of is investigating the term-forming thinking perspective. From this higher vantage point, one can discern the underlying principles which allow us to make sense of a widely varying terminology with ease. That is what happened with me for philosophy and esoteric spirituality. In the last 200 and especially 100 years, a plethora of these streams have emerged and each major personality has developed their own unique terminologies to point towards shared meaningful principles. If we try to 'decode' each terminology from the bottom-up, i.e. within the intellectual labyrinth, we will only make the pursuit tedious and confuse ourselves. All we need to do is ascend to the higher thinking perspective, the holistic Ideas at work, and all these things will naturally begin falling into place.

There is nothing controversial about anything we write, in the sense that it has all been verified time and again by modern science, especially theoretical physics, psychology, and cognitive science. The fact that our thinking structures the phenomenal world is also quite common sensical to anyone who takes some time to reflect on their own experience. What is resisted at every turn, however, is internalizing these theoretical frameworks so they become living experiential realities. One can repeat, "my thinking co-creates the world appearances", over and over again, and hold it firmly as an intellectual conviction but never really experience the reality of this assertion. That our inner development enriches the way we perceive-conceive the world is not a claim, it's a reality. It can't be reasonably denied by anyone who has ever pursued a career, skill, hobby, etc. with thinking and made progress. Spiritual evolution, as we speak of it here, is entirely continuous with this gradient of normal inner development.

We could take any skill as an example, really. If you want to become a better bike rider, you don't keep riding the bike around the same paths you have been riding, but start investigating the art of bike riding and then gradually apply the insights to traversing new territory. The spiritual path is investigating the Skill which underlies and is presupposed by all other skills - thinking. We can ride around the same old paths and we will certainly get our daily thinking exercise, going from point A to point B in a perfectly coherent manner, and we will feel comfortable and perhaps even powerful, because we have gotten so good at riding the same paths. That is why people find it so hard to abandon metaphysical speculation. Their models are internally coherent, going from point A to B without fail (and ignoring all that resides beyond the small A-B circle), but our living experience of the world doesn't change. No matter how many models we weave together, we still feel like atomized beings confronting a vast external world which we are not creatively responsible for. The concept of "dissociated alter" does nothing to change this experience or make us feel like we really understand it, deep down. We still have no idea how our inner life of temporal processes connects us to the outer world of spatial objects.

If we want to expand the sphere of our conceptual experience beyond the tiny A-B circle, we need to stop getting sucked into the concepts which result from our thinking activity, the tiny outer paths we travel in the sensory world, and refocus on the thinking activity itself which takes place within us. One of the first steps is to realize why we have such a hard time focusing on our own thinking activity. Why it remains so universally ignored when it's so near to us, more near to us than anything else - it is always hiding from us in plain sight, especially in proportion to the extent we are actually making use of it (to discuss things on this forum, for ex.). I feel that this is one of the most clear and accessible parts of PoF. So I want to quote the relevant sections and ask whether you follow and, if so, what you think it means or implies? Why is it important or is it not important to you, as the case may be? I quoted the tail section earlier, but here is a more elaborated version.

PoF Ch 3 wrote:But thinking as an object of observation differs essentially from all other objects. The observation of a table, or a tree, occurs in me as soon as these objects appear upon the horizon of my experience. Yet I do not, at the same time, observe my thinking about these things. I observe the table, and I carry out the thinking about the table, but I do not at the same moment observe this. I must first take up a standpoint outside my own activity if, in addition to observing the table, I want also to observe my thinking about the table. Whereas observation of things and events, and thinking about them, are everyday occurrences filling up the continuous current of my life, observation of the thinking itself is a kind of exceptional state. This fact must be properly taken into account when we come to determine the relationship of thinking to all other contents of observation. We must be quite clear about the fact that, in observing thinking, we are applying to it a procedure which constitutes the normal course of events for the study of the whole of the rest of the world-content, but which in this normal course of events is not applied to thinking itself.

...This is just the peculiar nature of thinking, that the thinker forgets his thinking while actually engaged in it. What occupies his attention is not his thinking, but the object of his thinking, which he is observing.

The first observation which we make about thinking is therefore this: that it is the unobserved element in our ordinary mental and spiritual life.
...
The reason why we do not observe the thinking that goes on in our ordinary life is none other than this, that it is due to our own activity. Whatever I do not myself produce, appears in my field of observation as an object; I find myself confronted by it as something that has come about independently of me. It comes to meet me. I must accept it as something that precedes my thinking process, as a premise. While I am reflecting upon the object, I am occupied with it, my attention is focussed upon it. To be thus occupied is precisely to contemplate by thinking. I attend, not to my activity, but to the object of this activity. In other words, while I am thinking I pay no heed to my thinking, which is of my own making, but only to the object of my thinking, which is not of my making.

I am, moreover, in the same position when I enter into the exceptional state and reflect on my own thinking. I can never observe my present thinking; I can only subsequently take my experiences of my thinking process as the object of fresh thinking. If I wanted to watch my present thinking, I should have to split myself into two persons, one to think, the other to observe this thinking. But this I cannot do. I can only accomplish it in two separate acts. The thinking to be observed is never that in which I am actually engaged, but another one. 

...The reason why it is impossible to observe thinking in the actual moment of its occurrence, is the very one which makes it possible for us to know it more immediately and more intimately than any other process in the world. Just because it is our own creation do we know the characteristic features of its course, the manner in which the process takes place. What in all other spheres of observation can be found only indirectly, namely, the relevant context and the relationship between the individual objects, is, in the case of thinking, known to us in an absolutely direct way. I do not on the face of it know why, for my observation, thunder follows lightning; but I know directly, from the very content of the two concepts, why my thinking connects the concept of thunder with the concept of lightning. It does not matter in the least whether I have the right concepts of lightning and thunder. The connection between those concepts that I do have is clear to me, and this through the very concepts themselves.

PS - I don't agree with your characterization of scripture, and I think the writings of the New Testament are especially clear on how it is humanity's ongoing task to bring the created world of appearances to its completion. 
Romans 8 wrote:For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of [f]corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.
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Re: This forum

Post by Cleric K »

Federica wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 5:25 pm If I try to imagine how a representative follower of analytical idealism, or a relatively educated person would make sense of what you express here, as they arrive to this forum, the impression I have is that you are expecting too much.
I guess you're right. Actually this is what I primarily learn about in this forum - the kind of obstacles that lie in souls towards deeper insight. In everyone here's defense I can say that without exception those writing in the forum are very intelligent people so the difficulties are rarely of technical character. It's much rather that the decisive factor are the subconscious antipathies towards certain ideas, which act like 'magnetic repulsion', even without the person knowing it (I think I've given before the video with the magnetic pendulum).

This is quite clear for anyone who has tried to convey, for example, BK's ideas to a materialist. It's not that the materialist is stupid. In fact, they are often very smart. The repulsion comes from deeper within the soul. I can speak from own experience here because I've been atheist for half my life. The truth is materialism has fought for centuries to liberate itself from anything spiritual which might have a say about how it is wise to conduct our life. Basically materialism has led to a point where the ego feels as the lone moral agency based on personal sympathies and antipathies, while morality itself simply doesn't exist in the foundations of reality, where we only have physical fields. Furthermore, it's greatly convenient that one considers their inner life to be fully private - whatever we secretly think or desire is our own business and has no effect on anything else. Only what proceeds from our bodily will has the power to affect the environment.

These are the 'benefits' that materialism has conquered for itself in the course of its development. Even though materialists (any myself in the past) would justify the worldview based on science, on a deeper level there's an epic struggle to keep the walls of the private bubble of consciousness impenetrable. Relatively few have the honesty to identify these feelings as the prime motivator for justifying the physicalist worldview. It is somewhat similar with spirituality which subscribes to the flat conception of a spiritual background within which fully distinct bubbles dissociate. When these people are presented with ideas such as the ones in the article Lou posted in the other thread (where our own being is seen as threads, made of smaller threads but at the same time also braided into much greater threads (beings)), things are once again rejected, not because people are not smart enough to grasp them but because they clash with deeper feelings.
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