The symbiotic ecology of the psychedelic realm

[Lou Gold]

Interesting recent essay from Essentia

The symbiotic ecology of the psychedelic realm

[Cleric K]

Interesting recent essay from Essentia

The symbiotic ecology of the psychedelic realm

Thanks Lou. When I arrived at this forum I had psychedelic experiences like these. As I interacted with people here it came to me as a surprise that in the end everyone sees in the psychedelic experience only that which they are ready to accept (like what I wrote in the other thread). After realizing that psychedelics don't in themselves lead to the insights I was building, I slowly began to differentiate what psychedelics actually provide and what I have attained to through fully conscious inner transformation.

Lou, what are your thoughts on the essay? Or rather, how do you think this line of spiritual-scientific inquiry should proceed? It's quite clear that psychedelics in themselves don't lead too far. After the sessions one is still left with their intellect and they are forced to forge theories that explain the experience (thus the mind is still on 'our side' of reality).

To be sure, those inspired by psychedelics rarely reach the insight about the Macrocosmic hierarchy (described in the article as threads braided of other threads). I'm no expert on psychedelic literature but the much more common vibe is one of pluralism - there's this field of living consciousness and entities, and we're interacting with all this. It's much rarer for someone to deepen the soul life and discover the axis of integration which inevitably leads to the image of a hierarchy. Probably the only other place I've read something of this sort is Simon Powell's The Psilocybin Solution, although the picture built in the book still remains somewhat external to the thinking that weaves it. McKenna also felt that reality has linguistic macrocosmic structure (which immediately implies a hierarchy of meaning) but to my knowledge he didn't pursue this idea any deeper. He was too fascinated with the level of the retinal circus, where letter-fragments endlessly dance.

So now that this is an "interesting recent essay", how do you envision for the research to go further? I think it is clear to anyone versed in the craft that simply increasing the dose won't solve the question of flat plurality vs. hierarchy of living idea-beings (of which we're a cross-section, so to speak). So do we remain where we are and simply admit that these things are undecidable and we simply need to respect each other and pick a faith to our best liking? Or it really would make a difference for humanity if instead of living in the circus of letter-fragments, we grow into the hierarchy of the living script-layers?

[Martin_]

I slowly began to differentiate what psychedelics actually provide and what I have attained to through fully conscious inner transformation.

In your view, what is it that psychedeclics actually provide?(in contrast to the drug-free conscious inner transformation) (maybe there's a thread already about that)

My own crude way of putting it would be that they act as an elevator, giving you a push in some kind of direction, and then happily leaving you there to figure out what the h*ck is going on and how to get back home.

Instead, would you have gotten there "on your own", you would:
1. have exercised the "muscles" you need to get there, thus being able to continue moving in that direction (perhaps) indefinitely.
2. have spent some time getting there, orienting yourself as you go, and thus, when you pass the point that the psychedelics would have dropped you off at you're a lot more oriented and can make sense of the situation in a different way.
3. (perhaps) have no need to get back home.

[Federica]

Can psychedelic use be called a line of spiritual-scientific inquiry? I have to admit a strong antipathy for drugs and especially for the specific use of it referred to here. It’s to the level that reading this:

When I arrived at this forum I had psychedelic experiences like these. As I interacted with people here it came to me as a surprise that in the end everyone sees in the psychedelic experience only that which they are ready to accept

Or this from the music thread:

I've got 25 years and thousands of doses of Daime, cleaning my mentality of toxic thought patterns in order to yet incompletely be with an Awareness that you call Thinking.

is painful for me. Which I know is ridiculous, but. I percieve psychedelics as a profound violation of the integrity not only of the physical body, but of the ego. I realize it's an exaggeration, but my imagination of what it is goes as follows. I imagine the introduction of psychodrugs (‘medicines’ as they are called in the essay?) in the human organization as a curling into oneself, a kind of bizarre intercourse with oneself that leads to producing from within the center a sort of endogenous fragment, parallel to the external input. Like giving birth out of oneself to a snippet of divergence that didn't need to be there, but gets in the workings, is forced into the order of the cross-section to swerve its layers, so they can’t hold together evenly anymore. It’s that serious. Unsurprisingly, reading this essay, I find the opening up of new possibilities for exploring psychedelics in the context of philosophy, arts, music, social theory, and (what?) religious studies, quite worrying.

I could write more comments on this essay, for example on a statement such as: “I would like to move in this direction by suggesting two kinds of constitutive principles: functional independence and symbiosis” but given the context I have provided, I understand it would not be of much value. My question is: would anyone have any suggestions in which directions I could look to try to figure out more about this feeling of antipathy?

[Lou Gold]

Interesting recent essay from Essentia

The symbiotic ecology of the psychedelic realm

Thanks Lou. When I arrived at this forum I had psychedelic experiences like these. As I interacted with people here it came to me as a surprise that in the end everyone sees in the psychedelic experience only that which they are ready to accept (like what I wrote in the other thread). After realizing that psychedelics don't in themselves lead to the insights I was building, I slowly began to differentiate what psychedelics actually provide and what I have attained to through fully conscious inner transformation.

Lou, what are your thoughts on the essay? Or rather, how do you think this line of spiritual-scientific inquiry should proceed? It's quite clear that psychedelics in themselves don't lead too far. After the sessions one is still left with their intellect and they are forced to forge theories that explain the experience (thus the mind is still on 'our side' of reality).

To be sure, those inspired by psychedelics rarely reach the insight about the Macrocosmic hierarchy (described in the article as threads braided of other threads). I'm no expert on psychedelic literature but the much more common vibe is one of pluralism - there's this field of living consciousness and entities, and we're interacting with all this. It's much rarer for someone to deepen the soul life and discover the axis of integration which inevitably leads to the image of a hierarchy. Probably the only other place I've read something of this sort is Simon Powell's The Psilocybin Solution, although the picture built in the book still remains somewhat external to the thinking that weaves it. McKenna also felt that reality has linguistic macrocosmic structure (which immediately implies a hierarchy of meaning) but to my knowledge he didn't pursue this idea any deeper. He was too fascinated with the level of the retinal circus, where letter-fragments endlessly dance.

So now that this is an "interesting recent essay", how do you envision for the research to go further? I think it is clear to anyone versed in the craft that simply increasing the dose won't solve the question of flat plurality vs. hierarchy of living idea-beings (of which we're a cross-section, so to speak). So do we remain where we are and simply admit that these things are undecidable and we simply need to respect each other and pick a faith to our best liking? Or it really would make a difference for humanity if instead of living in the circus of letter-fragments, we grow into the hierarchy of the living script-layers?

Thank you for asking Cleric. It will take me awhile to respond because I'm facing a time and energy management problem at this moment. However, I will do my best. I will have to come forth from my own braid, which is neither a psychedelic explorer or a philosophical researcher of the macrocosmos. I have not read either McKenna or Powell and I've not been especially attracted by the endless personal reports of adventurous "tripping." I am a storyteller whose life was stabilized 25 years ago, has been maintained since, and continues to be enhanced by the luminal sacred space facilitated by entheogenic Santo Daime rituals and practices, which I do not view as the way for all. More on my personal story must wait until I receive more inner guidance about what to lay out "on my doorstep" so to speak.

In the meantime, here is the paragraph that most interested me in the article, with emphasis on the bolded lines.

The basis for the present proposal comes from the contemporary confluence of comparative mythology and religion on the one hand, and on the other the renaissance of research on psychedelics. This convergence has its roots in the work of the patriarchs of the ‘perennial philosophy’ (William James, Huston Smith, Aldous Huxley, Alan Watts), who were themselves fascinated by the similarities between ancient myths and the phenomenological contents of non-ordinary states of consciousness. The implicit suggestion is that humans universally share the neurological capacity to enter into visionary states in which they experience interior but transpersonal events of the highest reality, value and meaning. The ways in which people enter these states are rather varied. They can be triggered by (among other things) oxygen depletion, fasting, sensory deprivation, drumming, psychoactive medicines, or most often, some combination thereof.

I would add that these transpersonal events can also be triggered by contemplation, devotion, meditation, dreams, or pure grace. In whatever is the triggering case, the subsequent challenge will inevitably be to integrate the great revelations into one's ordinary life and doings.

[Martin_]

My question is: would anyone have any suggestions in which directions I could look to try to figure out more about this feeling of antipathy?

Social conditioning? After all, you are swedish, right? (So am I)
The degree of taboo around drugs in Sweden is quite unusual. (barring alcohol, of course)

But maybe you have already looked in that direction and know that's not it.

[Lou Gold]

Can psychedelic use be called a line of spiritual-scientific inquiry? I have to admit a strong antipathy for drugs and especially for the specific use of it referred to here. It’s to the level that reading this:

When I arrived at this forum I had psychedelic experiences like these. As I interacted with people here it came to me as a surprise that in the end everyone sees in the psychedelic experience only that which they are ready to accept

Or this from the music thread:

I've got 25 years and thousands of doses of Daime, cleaning my mentality of toxic thought patterns in order to yet incompletely be with an Awareness that you call Thinking.

is painful for me. Which I know is ridiculous, but. I percieve psychedelics as a profound violation of the integrity not only of the physical body, but of the ego. I realize it's an exaggeration, but my imagination of what it is goes as follows. I imagine the introduction of psychodrugs (‘medicines’ as they are called in the essay?) in the human organization as a curling into oneself, a kind of bizarre intercourse with oneself that leads to producing from within the center a sort of endogenous fragment, parallel to the external input. Like giving birth out of oneself to a snippet of divergence that didn't need to be there, but gets in the workings, is forced into the order of the cross-section to swerve its layers, so they can’t hold together evenly anymore. It’s that serious. Unsurprisingly, reading this essay, I find the opening up of new possibilities for exploring psychedelics in the context of philosophy, arts, music, social theory, and (what?) religious studies, quite worrying.

I could write more comments on this essay, for example on a statement such as: “I would like to move in this direction by suggesting two kinds of constitutive principles: functional independence and symbiosis” but given the context I have provided, I understand it would not be of much value. My question is: would anyone have any suggestions in which directions I could look to try to figure out more about this feeling of antipathy?

Federica,

Thank you for your sincere honesty.

My question is: would anyone have any suggestions in which directions I could look to try to figure out more about this feeling of antipathy?

I don't have a suggestion but I want to emphasize that psychoactive enhancement of one's process is in my experience definitely not for everyone, which is why Santo Daime, for example, does not proselytize. I would definitely allow that your personal antipathy may be for very good and wise reasons.

[Lou Gold]

I slowly began to differentiate what psychedelics actually provide and what I have attained to through fully conscious inner transformation.

In your view, what is it that psychedeclics actually provide?(in contrast to the drug-free conscious inner transformation) (maybe there's a thread already about that)

My own crude way of putting it would be that they act as an elevator, giving you a push in some kind of direction, and then happily leaving you there to figure out what the h*ck is going on and how to get back home.

Instead, would you have gotten there "on your own", you would:
1. have exercised the "muscles" you need to get there, thus being able to continue moving in that direction (perhaps) indefinitely.
2. have spent some time getting there, orienting yourself as you go, and thus, when you pass the point that the psychedelics would have dropped you off at you're a lot more oriented and can make sense of the situation in a different way.
3. (perhaps) have no need to get back home.

Yes, no matter the entry point, the challenge will be to integrate and firm an ordinary life practice. This is why, in my view, if one wants to move beyond a specific healing or leap of awareness, the facilitating substance needs to be accompanied by a doctrine. It's the doctrine, not the substance, that offers the path of grounding.

[Federica]

My question is: would anyone have any suggestions in which directions I could look to try to figure out more about this feeling of antipathy?

Social conditioning? After all, you are swedish, right? (So am I)
The degree of taboo around drugs in Sweden is quite unusual. (barring alcohol, of course)

But maybe you have already looked in that direction and know that's not it.

Thank you Martin!
I would say it's not it but I never gave this possibility a real inquiry, so now I will.
I live in Sweden, but I'm not Swedish I am Italian.

[Federica]

Can psychedelic use be called a line of spiritual-scientific inquiry? I have to admit a strong antipathy for drugs and especially for the specific use of it referred to here. It’s to the level that reading this:

When I arrived at this forum I had psychedelic experiences like these. As I interacted with people here it came to me as a surprise that in the end everyone sees in the psychedelic experience only that which they are ready to accept

Or this from the music thread:

I've got 25 years and thousands of doses of Daime, cleaning my mentality of toxic thought patterns in order to yet incompletely be with an Awareness that you call Thinking.

is painful for me. Which I know is ridiculous, but. I percieve psychedelics as a profound violation of the integrity not only of the physical body, but of the ego. I realize it's an exaggeration, but my imagination of what it is goes as follows. I imagine the introduction of psychodrugs (‘medicines’ as they are called in the essay?) in the human organization as a curling into oneself, a kind of bizarre intercourse with oneself that leads to producing from within the center a sort of endogenous fragment, parallel to the external input. Like giving birth out of oneself to a snippet of divergence that didn't need to be there, but gets in the workings, is forced into the order of the cross-section to swerve its layers, so they can’t hold together evenly anymore. It’s that serious. Unsurprisingly, reading this essay, I find the opening up of new possibilities for exploring psychedelics in the context of philosophy, arts, music, social theory, and (what?) religious studies, quite worrying.

I could write more comments on this essay, for example on a statement such as: “I would like to move in this direction by suggesting two kinds of constitutive principles: functional independence and symbiosis” but given the context I have provided, I understand it would not be of much value. My question is: would anyone have any suggestions in which directions I could look to try to figure out more about this feeling of antipathy?

Federica,

Thank you for your sincere honesty.

My question is: would anyone have any suggestions in which directions I could look to try to figure out more about this feeling of antipathy?

I don't have a suggestion but I want to emphasize that psychoactive enhancement of one's process is in my experience definitely not for everyone, which is why Santo Daime, for example, does not proselytize. I would definitely allow that your personal antipathy may be for very good and wise reasons.

Thank you Lou : )
I appreciate your comment!
I don't know if I have very good reasons, but I will find out.