'Eating Light' - A Discussion and Exercise for Imagination (Gurdjieff)

Any topics primarily focused on metaphysics can be discussed here, in a generally casual way, where conversations may take unexpected turns.
mikekatz
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Re: 'Eating Light' - A Discussion and Exercise for Imagination (Gurdjieff)

Post by mikekatz »

Federica wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 9:51 am
Mike,
I am reading Knowledge of the higher worlds, and I want to report another excerpt that could hardly be more clarifying of Steiner's attitude to race:
Steiner wrote:Other qualities which, like anger and vexation, have to be combated, are timidity, superstition, prejudice, vanity and ambition, curiosity, the mania for imparting information, and the tendency to make distinctions in human beings according to the outward characteristics of rank, sex, race, and so forth. In our time it is difficult for people to understand how the combating of such qualities can have anything to do with the heightening of the faculty of cognition. But every spiritual scientist knows that much more depends upon such matters than upon the increase of intelligence and employment of artificial exercises.

As I know you know, becoming aware of unequivocable advice like this should prompt us to humbly reconsider, firstly by unbiased inquiry and sincere attempt to understand, any reported statements and vague judgments we might have adopted and entertained, being ready to admit their possible quality of prejudice, and to let them go. I am certainly due to apply the same consideration and suspension of judgment to everything, for that matter, including Gurdjieff, for example.
Hi Federica,

That's what I've been trying to say. I brought up the Steiner race issue only to show that personalities such as these have all sorts of accusations levelled at them, especially by disgruntled pupils / associates or whatever. I don't know whether Steiner was a racist, but I don't believe someone at his level could be. I just googled for Steiner issues and this came up, and it had been mentioned here.

Gurdjieff himself, in some of his talks, was quite happy to describe how he obtained funds in devious ways to continue the work and support his pupils. So you can just imagine the accusations that arose around him.

Krishnamurti is another one who has been much maligned. If you watch some of his videos on YouTube, and/or read his books, it's hard to imagine that what is said about him is even remotely true.

These different paths don't originate in the personalities that expound them, they come from the Vertical. It's foolish to focus on the personalities. If the ideas and methods ring true, examine them and follow them for as long as they help you.
Mike
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Federica
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Re: 'Eating Light' - A Discussion and Exercise for Imagination (Gurdjieff)

Post by Federica »

mikekatz wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 4:34 pm
Federica wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 9:51 am
Mike,
I am reading Knowledge of the higher worlds, and I want to report another excerpt that could hardly be more clarifying of Steiner's attitude to race:
Steiner wrote:Other qualities which, like anger and vexation, have to be combated, are timidity, superstition, prejudice, vanity and ambition, curiosity, the mania for imparting information, and the tendency to make distinctions in human beings according to the outward characteristics of rank, sex, race, and so forth. In our time it is difficult for people to understand how the combating of such qualities can have anything to do with the heightening of the faculty of cognition. But every spiritual scientist knows that much more depends upon such matters than upon the increase of intelligence and employment of artificial exercises.

As I know you know, becoming aware of unequivocable advice like this should prompt us to humbly reconsider, firstly by unbiased inquiry and sincere attempt to understand, any reported statements and vague judgments we might have adopted and entertained, being ready to admit their possible quality of prejudice, and to let them go. I am certainly due to apply the same consideration and suspension of judgment to everything, for that matter, including Gurdjieff, for example.
Hi Federica,

That's what I've been trying to say. I brought up the Steiner race issue only to show that personalities such as these have all sorts of accusations levelled at them, especially by disgruntled pupils / associates or whatever. I don't know whether Steiner was a racist, but I don't believe someone at his level could be. I just googled for Steiner issues and this came up, and it had been mentioned here.

Gurdjieff himself, in some of his talks, was quite happy to describe how he obtained funds in devious ways to continue the work and support his pupils. So you can just imagine the accusations that arose around him.

Krishnamurti is another one who has been much maligned. If you watch some of his videos on YouTube, and/or read his books, it's hard to imagine that what is said about him is even remotely true.

These different paths don't originate in the personalities that expound them, they come from the Vertical. It's foolish to focus on the personalities. If the ideas and methods ring true, examine them and follow them for as long as they help you.


Happy to read this, Mike! I had wrongly understood your mention, now I see it was simply a benign provocation.
Moreover, we could replace 'Higher Worlds' with 'Vertical' to find coincidence between your statement and Steiner's view of the role of the spiritual teacher, or personality: the direction of attention, devotion, reverence, and veneration is to Higher Knowledge, or to the Vertical, while the teacher lends a helping hand, offers a friendly guidance.


There is only the last half line of your post that leaves me perplex. If we find resonance and Truth in the Vertical, how should we then be so opportunistic as to simply 'follow the ideas as long as they help us'? Are we not called, as humans, to a bigger responsibility than using true ideas for mere personal benefit, ready to discard them, the moment we become unable to find help and benefits in them anymore, for any contingent reasons? Maybe I am misunderstanding your thought once again...
This is the goal towards which the sixth age of humanity will strive: the popularization of occult truth on a wide scale. That's the mission of this age and the society that unites spiritually has the task of bringing this occult truth to life everywhere and applying it directly. That's exactly what our age is missing.
mikekatz
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Re: 'Eating Light' - A Discussion and Exercise for Imagination (Gurdjieff)

Post by mikekatz »

Federica wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 5:51 pm
mikekatz wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 4:34 pm
Federica wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 9:51 am
Mike,
I am reading Knowledge of the higher worlds, and I want to report another excerpt that could hardly be more clarifying of Steiner's attitude to race:



As I know you know, becoming aware of unequivocable advice like this should prompt us to humbly reconsider, firstly by unbiased inquiry and sincere attempt to understand, any reported statements and vague judgments we might have adopted and entertained, being ready to admit their possible quality of prejudice, and to let them go. I am certainly due to apply the same consideration and suspension of judgment to everything, for that matter, including Gurdjieff, for example.
Hi Federica,

That's what I've been trying to say. I brought up the Steiner race issue only to show that personalities such as these have all sorts of accusations levelled at them, especially by disgruntled pupils / associates or whatever. I don't know whether Steiner was a racist, but I don't believe someone at his level could be. I just googled for Steiner issues and this came up, and it had been mentioned here.

Gurdjieff himself, in some of his talks, was quite happy to describe how he obtained funds in devious ways to continue the work and support his pupils. So you can just imagine the accusations that arose around him.

Krishnamurti is another one who has been much maligned. If you watch some of his videos on YouTube, and/or read his books, it's hard to imagine that what is said about him is even remotely true.

These different paths don't originate in the personalities that expound them, they come from the Vertical. It's foolish to focus on the personalities. If the ideas and methods ring true, examine them and follow them for as long as they help you.


Happy to read this, Mike! I had wrongly understood your mention, now I see it was simply a benign provocation.
Moreover, we could replace 'Higher Worlds' with 'Vertical' to find coincidence between your statement and Steiner's view of the role of the spiritual teacher, or personality: the direction of attention, devotion, reverence, and veneration is to Higher Knowledge, or to the Vertical, while the teacher lends a helping hand, offers a friendly guidance.


There is only the last half line of your post that leaves me perplex. If we find resonance and Truth in the Vertical, how should we then be so opportunistic as to simply 'follow the ideas as long as they help us'? Are we not called, as humans, to a bigger responsibility than using true ideas for mere personal benefit, ready to discard them, the moment we become unable to find help and benefits in them anymore, for any contingent reasons? Maybe I am misunderstanding your thought once again...
Hi Federica
I'm also perplexed, lol. Before you came upon Steiner, you were on a different path. When you heard Steiner, you recognised something much more valuable than that path, and you embraced it. That's all I meant.
Mike
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Federica
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Re: 'Eating Light' - A Discussion and Exercise for Imagination (Gurdjieff)

Post by Federica »

AshvinP wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 1:49 pm These are very pressing issues for people to confront today. Especially the conflation of willfully suppressing thoughtful, dispassionate, penetrating inquiries into psycho-physical differentiations, for some sort of 'anti-racist' or similar virtue. It would be quite absurd to suggest we should avoid such inquiries in the realm of nature's differentiations, but when it comes to the human individual and culture, it becomes a sign of a 'progressive' attitude, when in fact nothing could be more retrogressive. This is, of course, rooted in the modern tendency to isolate the thinking individual and its cultural institutions from the evolving World Process. That, in turn, is rooted in a latent egoism which gives rise to antipathies, fears, anxieties, etc. concerning the depths of the human soul and what archetypal shadowy tendencies it harbors. It is the "I"-being's subordination to the impulses, passions, and thoughts of the lower desire body. This isn't virtue but a veiled, intellectualized animalism - one which fails to differentiate the psycho-physical organization from the eternal soul-spirit, of which the former is merely the instrument. This idolatrous tendency then gets projected into 'reality itself' and serves as the basis for outrage when precise inquiries are made into the differentiated streams of psycho-physical development, since the latter is practically equated with the sum total of what it means to be a human being. As usual, this inverting tendency is exactly what will prevent humanity from lucidly and productively addressing the inequalities and injustices which it only dreams of being concerned about.


Et voilà, Ashvin, in French one could say, you have put your two feet in the dish :)
As usual, this inverting tendency is exactly what will prevent humanity from lucidly and productively addressing the inequalities and injustices which it only dreams of being concerned about.
Is there pessimism, or slight exasperation, in that future tense, in your overall tone? Maybe it's my wrong reading.
But it’s true, it’s becoming a common stance. It happens in the workplace for example, that people are not keen to address cultural differences. They have adopted the mindset that because we are all human beings, common ground is all that matters, and all one should talk about in that area.


Beyond the separation and fear in which this is grounded, and the flattening of being human to being a physiology with passions and needs, I would like to think that there's also a way to look at this phenomenon historically, maybe as an opposite reaction or a misguided, guilty reaction - it’s in Western cultures that this is happening - to an epoch of colonialism and to other known events of the recent past. Is this a possible factor?
This is the goal towards which the sixth age of humanity will strive: the popularization of occult truth on a wide scale. That's the mission of this age and the society that unites spiritually has the task of bringing this occult truth to life everywhere and applying it directly. That's exactly what our age is missing.
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Federica
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Re: 'Eating Light' - A Discussion and Exercise for Imagination (Gurdjieff)

Post by Federica »

mikekatz wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 6:38 pm
Federica wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 5:51 pm
mikekatz wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 4:34 pm

Hi Federica,

That's what I've been trying to say. I brought up the Steiner race issue only to show that personalities such as these have all sorts of accusations levelled at them, especially by disgruntled pupils / associates or whatever. I don't know whether Steiner was a racist, but I don't believe someone at his level could be. I just googled for Steiner issues and this came up, and it had been mentioned here.

Gurdjieff himself, in some of his talks, was quite happy to describe how he obtained funds in devious ways to continue the work and support his pupils. So you can just imagine the accusations that arose around him.

Krishnamurti is another one who has been much maligned. If you watch some of his videos on YouTube, and/or read his books, it's hard to imagine that what is said about him is even remotely true.

These different paths don't originate in the personalities that expound them, they come from the Vertical. It's foolish to focus on the personalities. If the ideas and methods ring true, examine them and follow them for as long as they help you.


Happy to read this, Mike! I had wrongly understood your mention, now I see it was simply a benign provocation.
Moreover, we could replace 'Higher Worlds' with 'Vertical' to find coincidence between your statement and Steiner's view of the role of the spiritual teacher, or personality: the direction of attention, devotion, reverence, and veneration is to Higher Knowledge, or to the Vertical, while the teacher lends a helping hand, offers a friendly guidance.


There is only the last half line of your post that leaves me perplex. If we find resonance and Truth in the Vertical, how should we then be so opportunistic as to simply 'follow the ideas as long as they help us'? Are we not called, as humans, to a bigger responsibility than using true ideas for mere personal benefit, ready to discard them, the moment we become unable to find help and benefits in them anymore, for any contingent reasons? Maybe I am misunderstanding your thought once again...
Hi Federica
I'm also perplexed, lol. Before you came upon Steiner, you were on a different path. When you heard Steiner, you recognised something much more valuable than that path, and you embraced it. That's all I meant.

Yes, I certainly explored various philosophies or paths over the last 2,5 years - not only the direct path, but a few more indeed! Last one in time: analytic idealism, never considering myself as being in search of 'help', although in a sense I was evidently looking for help. My most pressing motivation in this quest has always been understanding, and I have not stayed for long with any of these worldviews. I couldn't find any ultimate answers in any.


What I am trying to say, Mike, is: there is only one Vertical, correct? Many are the paths that attempt to lead there, but the more we move forward, the more the view opens up, the clearer we will see that the paths to the one summit have to converge. If one has been side-tracked for a while at some camp-base somewhere on one side, it’s good to recognize that there is more way to go in another direction, and join the group - provided that one wants to put in the effort to reach the summit. But once the path to the summit is in sight, it would be opportunistic, or irresponsible, to revert after a while, back to another way or camp that looks more helpful and restful, letting our fellow explorers do the work. I know this is not what you meant, but it’s what I meant.
This is the goal towards which the sixth age of humanity will strive: the popularization of occult truth on a wide scale. That's the mission of this age and the society that unites spiritually has the task of bringing this occult truth to life everywhere and applying it directly. That's exactly what our age is missing.
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AshvinP
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Re: 'Eating Light' - A Discussion and Exercise for Imagination (Gurdjieff)

Post by AshvinP »

Federica wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 8:34 pm
AshvinP wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 1:49 pm These are very pressing issues for people to confront today. Especially the conflation of willfully suppressing thoughtful, dispassionate, penetrating inquiries into psycho-physical differentiations, for some sort of 'anti-racist' or similar virtue. It would be quite absurd to suggest we should avoid such inquiries in the realm of nature's differentiations, but when it comes to the human individual and culture, it becomes a sign of a 'progressive' attitude, when in fact nothing could be more retrogressive. This is, of course, rooted in the modern tendency to isolate the thinking individual and its cultural institutions from the evolving World Process. That, in turn, is rooted in a latent egoism which gives rise to antipathies, fears, anxieties, etc. concerning the depths of the human soul and what archetypal shadowy tendencies it harbors. It is the "I"-being's subordination to the impulses, passions, and thoughts of the lower desire body. This isn't virtue but a veiled, intellectualized animalism - one which fails to differentiate the psycho-physical organization from the eternal soul-spirit, of which the former is merely the instrument. This idolatrous tendency then gets projected into 'reality itself' and serves as the basis for outrage when precise inquiries are made into the differentiated streams of psycho-physical development, since the latter is practically equated with the sum total of what it means to be a human being. As usual, this inverting tendency is exactly what will prevent humanity from lucidly and productively addressing the inequalities and injustices which it only dreams of being concerned about.


Et voilà, Ashvin, in French one could say, you have put your two feet in the dish :)
As usual, this inverting tendency is exactly what will prevent humanity from lucidly and productively addressing the inequalities and injustices which it only dreams of being concerned about.
Is there pessimism, or slight exasperation, in that future tense, in your overall tone? Maybe it's my wrong reading.
But it’s true, it’s becoming a common stance. It happens in the workplace for example, that people are not keen to address cultural differences. They have adopted the mindset that because we are all human beings, common ground is all that matters, and all one should talk about in that area.

Federica,

I suppose there is, but I get much less exasperated by it now than I used to. I see now more clearly how these sociopolitical, etc. issues link in to all the basic phenomenology of thinking we are always discussing here, and are symptoms of keeping our pre-dialectical thinking in the blind spot. I shouldn't really get any more exasperated by it than with the analytic idealist or mystical 'non-dualist' who often does a similar thing as the 'SJ warriors', i.e. resorts to labels like "Steinarian", implies spiritual thinking is a cult, and is so irrationally fearful of it that they would rather put those discussing it on an "ignore list" than examine their own inner activity. There's that exasperated tone creeping up again :)

There is a real Kabuki theater quality to all of it. I was watching a sports game the other day and everything said by the commentators on camera came off as being so staged and inauthentic (and this was when they weren't speaking of SJ issues, although there is plenty of that in the sports broadcasts now as well). Then it dawned on me that they are perfectly aware they come off this way, that the viewers know they come off this way, and yet they keep doing it because being inauthentic is all part of the 'game' now. It is has become a virtue in popular culture to play this game and to only focus on perfecting one's playing of it.

Sadly, this seems to be increasingly the case on metaphysical forums, and intellectual academia in general, as well. People know to some extent that they are not really penetrating to any deeper realties with the abstract metaphysical speculations. They know, or are easily reminded, that they are discussing the same exact theoretical 'problems' discussed by the most clever philosophical minds hundreds of years ago, with no resolution. They can be reminded that the models being discussed are extremely removed from our inner soul life and activity of willing-feeling-thinking. It's quite obvious that there are no practical considerations to speak of with these models - if the perfect, unassailable model was found, it wouldn't make a bit of difference to anyone's life. But they keep with it because it's familiar, self-aggrandizing, and it's all part of the dream-like game!

Beyond the separation and fear in which this is grounded, and the flattening of being human to being a physiology with passions and needs, I would like to think that there's also a way to look at this phenomenon historically, maybe as an opposite reaction or a misguided, guilty reaction - it’s in Western cultures that this is happening - to an epoch of colonialism and to other known events of the recent past. Is this a possible factor?

Ultimately, I think we need to penetrate to the spiritual roots. There will definitely be many correlations between the outer appearances, including historical events. The problem is when we try to draw causative links between the correlations across the 'horizontal' sensory-conceptual plane. I used a metaphor in an essay previously:

viewtopic.php?t=773
Imagine we are two-dimensional beings, beholding conscious phenomena - shapes, sizes, etc. - on a flat plane. The only shapes we can discern are one-dimensional lines and zero-dimensional points. We observe a curious point who manages to leave our plane existence for the third dimension, becoming super-sensible from our two-dimensional perspective. Many years later, the Point reappears in our plane universe. We are stunned! The Point has manifested from Divine realms to speak to us of its journey within the higher worlds. These tales of the Point are encoded into the bits of our two-dimensional plane for posterity. Many more years pass and our plane descendents begin to mock our tales. "There is no higher-dimensional world", they say, "you silly old people have fantasized these journeys of the Point". They continue, "our modern inquiries reveal that these points are 'virtual particles' which disappear and reappear continuously to and from the plane's quantum void." Adding insult to injury, they conclude, "our plane-ancestors invented higher worlds to fill the gap in their own knowledge of disappearing and reappearing points, but now we have explained this dynamic away". The triumphal return of the Divine Point has apparently been demystified. It went from a "miracle of God" to the "cosmic singularity", the "abiogenesis of single-celled organisms" from an "entropic soup", and the "emergence" of sentient life.

When it comes to our inner world of four-dimensional processes (3-D mental objects transforming in time), we now assume there are lines and points - desires, feelings, and thoughts - which actually disappear and reappear by their very nature. The rational intellect declares that it is silly superstition to suppose these thought-points travel in super-sensible realms when we cannot perceive them. It says our thought-points are virtual particles appearing, disappearing, and reappearing, and we accept that unquestionably as a viable scientific explanation for their existence within our experience. It is simply assumed by most, subconsciously, that these thought-experiences have been demystified. Yet, our unprejudiced logical reasoning demands a more coherent explanation from us. It demands we take notice of how physical objects do not simply disappear when they are obstructed from our view and the same must hold true for mental objects. There must be an entire super-sensible path these thought-points traverse before we perceive their final destination as concepts in our inner experience. Tracing back the normal thinking-flow with higher Thinking, then, is revealing the subconscious forces which structure our normal thoughts, feelings, and desires. We must only resist the temptation to ignore or cease our own logical reasoning out of egoic pride and convenience.

Steiner also makes this point in various places, specifically with regards to history. He critiqued the 'pragmatic' history of his day which tried to explain all current events in terms of the events which just preceded them. (this is not to be confused with pragmatic philosophy, which is certainly aligned with philosophy of spiritual activity). The problem is that the vertical dimension, i.e. all that takes place within the spiritual planes nested 'above' the historical events, including the periods of death-rebirth for each individual, is ignored. These supra-sensory events, which seed our collective and individual Karma, have much more to tell us about the current state of affairs than exoteric history. With that said, there certainly could be a Karmic connection between Western colonialism and the current SJ oscillation - most likely there is - but I don't think we are really explaining much of anything by drawing that parallel. This is why I would focus more on the archetypal soul-forces which remain buried deep within the subconscious of most individuals today and therefore get projected outwards.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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