Seflf-causality of the reality of consciousness.

[Stranger]

Just for clarity, Eugene - sorry if I insist with my question: can you then say that you have not read Steiner with the hope or wish to find there some hints pointing to a fundamental convergence of all paths, on grounds of equal, undifferentiated, and timeless dignity and validity of the diverse traditions?

I'm not really concerned about the perennial philosophy, I don't think it is very relevant. I'm exploring Steiner's teaching as part of my ever-continuing developmental path and my search for the Truth.

Regarding the coincidence of Vendatic and Buddhist traditions that you affirm, and granted that I have considered the question mainly from the perspective of Vedanta, not being knowledgeable in the various Buddhist schools, your statement does imply that someone like Swami Sarvapriyananda - and like him other leading voices of today's Vedanta community - is a naive chatty guy, dreaming of a fundamental split between the two, sadly spending a life of field and academic dedication to the Vedantic and Eastern traditions lost in translation and terminology?

Swami Sarvapriyananda was right but only with respect to the dispute between Hinayana schools vs Vedanta. Historically, Hinayana schools (that adhered to the Buddha's original teaching on anatman) were numerous and spread in India until Buddhism was eradicated from India by Moslems, and it was exactly the dispute between Hinayana and Vedanta schools that Swami Sarvapriyananda is referring to. However, in Mahayana schools, especially at the end of the 1st millennium where the teachings of Tathagatagharba and Dzogchen started to spread, there was a clear understanding that there is actually no contradiction between Buddha's teaching of anatman and Vedanta's teaching of Atman, and a clear example of it is the quote form Padmasambhava that I gave above. However, Hinayana schools denied the Mahayana's teaching on Tathagatagharba (=Atman with capital A) and continued arguing with Vedanta schools, so that's the dispute that Swami Sarvapriyananda was referring to.

[AshvinP]

I have a sense that, no matter what I write, the thought will be this - "why is Ashvin being so argumentative, instead of just taking the olive branch I have offered that some non-dual paths have problems but others don't and are aligned with the pursuit of spiritual science?" I don't know what to say other than, what matters here is only the objective Truth as we can best understand it. Tibetan visualization, as described in that article, is not the same as spritual training for Imaginative cognition. This will become perfectly clear to anyone studying the spiritual scientific path, but only IF they are not studying it with the desire or intention of confirming what they already believe. No rigorous science can be done this way. If that is the intent, then all the books and quotes which are read will naturally confirm what one already believes. Then it will seem like Cleric and myself are just disputing your understanding of Imaginative cognition for egoic reasons, rather than because we have discerned your understanding of it to be flawed.

Of course there will be much overlap with ancient spiritual traditions and cosmologies born from an instinctive clairvoyance, and the results of spiritual scientific research, since we are dealing with One reality of shared Ideas which precipitate into human consciousness, but what matters here is not the finished content, but the scientific method and technique. What matters for the Cosmic organism is the refining and perfecting of human thinking consciousness. The Cosmos could care less about what terminological schemas we come up with to describe the higher planes of consciousness and the beings which inhabit them. The task they have given us is to become self-conscious of how exactly we are participating in spiritual evolution to make Earthly happenings into Cosmic realities, and that task is just now beginning consciously since the early 20th century. We should really sense how irrelevant our personal opinions, sympathies, feelings of being offended, etc. are to this supremely moral task we have been given.

But you have already gone down that route. You are saying the Western initiatic path, which has always maintained itself as the rightfully evolved successor of the ancient mystery traditions from East to West, is wrong. That it, in fact, has not advanced beyond what we find in Tibetan Buddhism, contrary to its own understanding. In contrast, we are saying that it makes no sense to speak of 'right' and 'wrong' within a spiritual evolutionary context. A later form of evolution cannot be judged more 'right' than an earlier form. The existence of a human being is not more 'right' than the existence of an animal or plant. The 'wrongness' only comes in when we fail to recognize a later form as being a more complete image of the Whole and, instead, equate the earlier and later forms with each other. Our subjective feelings and opinions of what "should" be cannot come into consideration. It is always these personalized interests and colorings which subconsciously provide us with justifications to only pay attention to what we already desire and to conclude what we already believe.

As I said, my views have changed a lot over the last year, so I'm not going to defend my older views. And as it turns out, The Steiner's path DOES include the nondual realization, and in that sense it encompasses both Eastern and Western approaches. Now, you can ask: "if Steiner's path does encompass Eastern nondual realization, why do we need to look back into those older traditions? The answer is - you don't need that. The ONLY thing I'm saying, repeating it again here: "nondual realization is a very essential gate along the way no matter which particular path you follow (including Steiner's!), so "ignore it at your own peril"". In other words: if you think you are following the Steiner's path but ignore the nondual realization, then you are doing it wrong, or at least doing it in an incomplete way without fully understanding it.

Alright, we can definitely agree that 'nondual realization' is embedded within the Western esoteric path to consciousness of higher worlds. But do we also agree the latter goes well beyond what can be accomplished through traditional nondual and/or visionary practices? Another Klocek quote may be helpful here.

Exact seers do not “see” as readily as gifted seers, but when they see they simultaneously know. They can experience the higher seeing almost constantly as a cognitive overlay of their normal seeing. They have a simultaneous knowing experience of hidden elements in what they are seeing that cognitively accompanies their normal seeing. Being able to tell the weather by watching cloud patterns and shifts in the wind is an entry-level example of this type of exact seeing. If you think you see something and make a prediction, the weather will come along and let you know if you were accurate in your cognitive seeing.

Contrary to common perceptions, the most advanced seers are the ones who do not so readily see visual phenomena like colored lights hovering around people. It is as if the development of their gift requires that they surrender it.This is hard to understand until we look at the most fundamental rule of seership – the rule of “give away.” To see and simultaneously to know requires that the seer be willing to dissolve or give away what is seen outwardly in order to see it inwardly. To the seer this is alarmingly like losing the gift of seeing. It is easy to understand how many seers would balk at this, yet the fundamental rule of seership is that if we wish to transform our gifts into capacities we must transform them ourselves and not just use them as they are given to us.

Cleric has also made this same point many times in his posts about mind-altering substances, such as psychedelics, and mystical visions. The active (and purified) will element of inner perception is missing in the ancient traditions and in all modern approaches which adopt them or seek substance-based shortcuts. This capacity is born of repeated stages of inner sacrifice-rebirth which became possible for humanity through the purifying Christ impulse. So it is important we are clear on this most significance difference of the various paths. The ancient esoteric paths of Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. were perfectly optimal for their time, but the problem comes when modern people, especially in Western culture, adopt them without also considering that the spiritual constitution of the human organism has significantly evolved since then.

[Federica]

Just for clarity, Eugene - sorry if I insist with my question: can you then say that you have not read Steiner with the hope or wish to find there some hints pointing to a fundamental convergence of all paths, on grounds of equal, undifferentiated, and timeless dignity and validity of the diverse traditions?

I'm not really concerned about the perennial philosophy, I don't think it is very relevant. I'm exploring Steiner's teaching as part of my ever-continuing developmental path and my search for the Truth.

Ok, I'll give up getting an answer
If you have given yourself the answer, it is definitely enough.

[Stranger]

Alright, we can definitely agree that 'nondual realization' is embedded within the Western esoteric path to consciousness of higher worlds. But do we also agree the latter goes well beyond what can be accomplished through traditional nondual and/or visionary practices?

The Eastern traditions do not talk much about what happens after the nondual realization and they usually say that it is indescribable with dualistic human language, so they simply chose to be silent about it. Their task was to lead each person to the gate of such realization and then let them continue beyond that gate on their own. But I do not think anybody living in the East in the past who accomplished the nondual realization would be denied the further development and ascension beyond such realization by the higher order spiritual beings.

Cleric has also made this same point many times in his posts about mind-altering substances, such as psychedelics, and mystical visions. The active (and purified) will element of inner perception is missing in the ancient traditions and in all modern approaches which adopt them or seek substance-based shortcuts. This capacity is born of repeated stages of inner sacrifice-rebirth which became possible for humanity through the purifying Christ impulse. So it is important we are clear on this most significance difference of the various paths. The ancient esoteric paths of Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. were perfectly optimal for their time, but the problem comes when modern people, especially in Western culture, adopt them without also considering that the spiritual constitution of the human organism has significantly evolved since then.

True, we need spiritual approaches that are more appropriate for our modern stage of spiritual constitution, but we can still learn a lot from the past traditions in terms of insights and practical techniques.

[AshvinP]

Alright, we can definitely agree that 'nondual realization' is embedded within the Western esoteric path to consciousness of higher worlds. But do we also agree the latter goes well beyond what can be accomplished through traditional nondual and/or visionary practices?

The Eastern traditions do not talk much about what happens after the nondual realization and they usually say that it is indescribable with dualistic human language, so they simply chose to be silent about it. Their task was to lead each person to the gate of such realization and then let them continue beyond that gate on their own. But I do not think anybody living in the East in the past who accomplished the nondual realization would be denied the further development and ascension beyond such realization by the higher order spiritual beings.

Cleric has also made this same point many times in his posts about mind-altering substances, such as psychedelics, and mystical visions. The active (and purified) will element of inner perception is missing in the ancient traditions and in all modern approaches which adopt them or seek substance-based shortcuts. This capacity is born of repeated stages of inner sacrifice-rebirth which became possible for humanity through the purifying Christ impulse. So it is important we are clear on this most significance difference of the various paths. The ancient esoteric paths of Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. were perfectly optimal for their time, but the problem comes when modern people, especially in Western culture, adopt them without also considering that the spiritual constitution of the human organism has significantly evolved since then.

True, we need spiritual approaches that are more appropriate for our modern stage of spiritual constitution, but we can still learn a lot from the past traditions in terms of insights and practical techniques.

It depends on what the techniques are. The main issue is that we can only know what techniques are appropriate for our modern body-soul-spirit constitution through the development of living thinking and corresponding study of spiritual science. Many people may feel its quite harmless to start off with ancient Eastern breathing techniques, for ex., or certain techniques to free the 'Kundalini fire' from below. There are many, many ways to ascend to the higher planes of consciousness, but the question is how do we do it safely, responsibly, and in a way which will allow us to continue consciously working on our spiritual forces between death-rebirth and in subsequent incarnations. I will share a few quotes from Scaligero here - many of the terms may not resonate with our understanding yet, but the main takeaway should be that we are dealing with a complex spiritual science which needs to be tightly navigated for responsible growth into the higher worlds. Anything which speaks to an immediate reunion with the eternal, unchanging, 'pure consciousness' and such, should be approached with caution and very discerning judgment.

Breathing can become a vehicle of the pure extra-corporeal force, not insofar as we operate on it according to the techniques of pranayama—that today inevitably solicit the inner workings of the corporeal nature, where the spiritual is alienated—but insofar we perceive its pre-corporeal being, freed of the rational-sentient astral, and its “proceeding” from a cosmic rhythm, bound not to feeling but, rather, to willing, which is to say, to original feeling, to the constitutional purity of the corporeal being, independent of the nervous system. As one can see, it is a breathing that has little to do with that of Yoga techniques.
...
The most profound human pain is invariably the demand for the crucial rhythm's restitution, according to the essential need of the “I,” which, not received as such by consciousness, brings about the disagreement of forces. The disagreement is constitutional to the ego. It is endured insofar as it opposes the restitution that is essentially demanded. The constitutional disagreement has ordinary breathing as its support. The crucial experience demands absolute independence from such breathing; the yogic breathing techniques, instead, reinforce it.
...
At the point of the dorsal spine that corresponds to the solar plexus, we encounter a type of extra-corporeal breathing—the temporary vehicle of the imaginative-volitive movement—insofar as this breathing is rendered independent from thought. The current, initially transmitted by this breath, is the dynamic synthesis of the two liberated forces of thinking and of willing, which have nothing to do with the currents ida and pingala of occult tantric physiology, whose dynamic belongs to a human type that is constitutionally different from the modern human being.
...
The preconscious activity by means of which the concept is formed can be experienced as the primordial inner current that transforms matter into spiritual energy in the organism, and spiritual energy into living nature. In this activity, the present-day spiritual practitioner has the possibility of gathering what tantric Yoga calls Shakti, in particular, the current of kundalini. It is the power that is unattainable by means of such Yoga, because it is impossible for its technique to be current.

Scaligero, Massimo. A Practical Manual of Meditation . Lindisfarne. Kindle Edition.

[Stranger]

It depends on what the techniques are. The main issue is that we can only know what techniques are appropriate for our modern body-soul-spirit constitution through the development of living thinking and corresponding study of spiritual science. Many people may feel its quite harmless to start off with ancient Eastern breathing techniques, for ex., or certain techniques to free the 'Kundalini fire' from below. There are many, many ways to ascend to the higher planes of consciousness, but the question is how do we do it safely, responsibly, and in a way which will allow us to continue consciously working on our spiritual forces between death-rebirth and in subsequent incarnations. I will share a few quotes from Scaligero here - many of the terms may not resonate with our understanding yet, but the main takeaway should be that we are dealing with a complex spiritual science which needs to be tightly navigated for responsible growth into the higher worlds. Anything which speaks to an immediate reunion with the eternal, unchanging, 'pure consciousness' and such, should be approached with caution and very discerning judgment.

Right, "viewer's discretion is advised"
As one modern Western Tibetan Buddhist lama says: "Tibetans forget to tell you that these practices are dangerous"

[Federica]

Eugene (this could also be of interest for Anthony)

Scaligero also wrote in the book "Kundalini of the West" (excuse rushed translation):

It often happens in our times that, in the less evident meeting between East and West, certain themes of Eastern doctrines reveal a concrete power in relation to certain progresses of Science. For example, in medicine, recent studies on possible pulmonary therapies by means of the so called “pneumo-peritoneum”, are striking, because of the analogy of certain physio-psychological aspects with themes of the Japanese mystical doctrine of the hara.
…
It would be a mistake to believe that it is about operating locally, through an exercise of concentration, which anyway could not avoid being linked to physical perception, hence to the nervous system, whilst the goal is instead to surface a force that is not submitted to the conditioning of the nervous system. Therefore, for a Westerner, such an operation could not take place, unless under the strict condition that he would master the inner state called by the Master of the new times [Steiner] “sense-free thinking”. In the vehicle of such “freed thinking” - which is not anymore rational thinking really, but vital extra-rational force, or mental Shakti - the absence of the “I”, does not equate loss of consciousness, but emergence of a superior form of it. This should not be overlooked by an experimentator who is not typologically Eastern. It is evident that the first instance for the modern Westerner is the experience of the pre-cerebral moment of the knowing, that we are tackling in this book. And it is clear that whoever experiments the pre-cerebral force of knowing, possesses the highest inner technique. In reality, he “remembers” that force, or he awakens it, through the current/actual forces of the I. Agreed, it is not useless to be informed of the past forms of the method, however he can only utilize them if he assumes them as meditation themes of his current ability to meditate.
The doctrine of the hara does not provide any technique enabling the modern experimentator to reach independence from the nervous system, whilst the key operation is precisely that. Without such an independence, there is no hara. But, in the end, who reaches such independence, in the end, does not need hara anymore, because he already has everything he needs. The moment of independence from the nervous system is, as we have shown, the Threshold of the Spiritual World. In essence, hara is nothing else than the dynamic center of will, that is to say that function of consciousness that in the Easterner - especially the far-Easterner - is immediate to the psyche. Consciousness, in such a human type, realizes itself immediately as will, the incorporeal force which corporeal vehicle is, according to the modern Science of Spirit, the renewal/exchange system [the endocrine system??] and the system of the members [arms/legs]. It can be said that, as per his constitution, the Esterner has an immediate possibility of I-affirmation in the seat of the will, hence in hara: he is not centered in the head, like the Westerner is. Therefore the Westerner, whenever determined to take advantage of the doctrine of the hara, should start by implementing a conversion of his own rational consciousness, that is to say he should operate in the head, according to the mentioned technique of “sense-free thinking”.
…
In the Upanishad, as in Taoism, in Mahayana Buddhism and in Tantrism, the abdomen, or lower abdomen is present, as symbol of the basal force or man. However the implications in terms of a method of occult development ar less easily recognizable. By contrast, some analogies on the plane of a practice of “transmutation” are objectively identifiable even with precise correspondences with Western Esotericism, especially with the alchemical tradition.
…
The doctrine of hara, beyond offering clinical enquiry a psychological and metaphysical counterpart, something like an “occult physiology” reference, undoubtedly exerts a fascination on the western researcher, especially the enthusiast of spiritual sciences. However - as already mentioned - it would be a gross mistake for him to assume such practice as straightforwardly valid, in the same way it is for the Japanese and for the Eastern type in general, because it is clear that, additionally, the relation to such a doctrine varies depending on the inner constitutional condition of the “knower”. For the Japanese and the Esterner man in general, the relation to hara is an immediate given: for him there is a direct articulation of the functions of consciousness in that seat of the will, that is the exchange system and the system of the members.. In him the aptitude to Yoga is spontaneous. On the contrary, for the effectively modern man, that relationship inevitably goes through the head. The I starts forming its self awareness in the head. Therefore the impulse of human evolution requires from the more modern type something more, and more daring, as a function of the mental I. Such a relationship is governed by rationality, which means that he can only have it in the first place in the form of a concept or image. Having it as a concept or image is not a “having”, however it is the beginning of a new possibility of profound action: it is about acquiring awareness of that.

Occultly, the East is expecting that from the West: that the more evolved man - more evolved meaning more immersed in the sense world - achieves the experience of self-awareness according to the Spirit, not according to corporeality as it is happening. The West shall not betray the East, which is expecting from it the new Light of Spirit. The Westerner who does not possess enough knowledge of the knowing with which he normally knows things, including such doctrines, is at risk of making the mistake of confusing for a contact with hara a simple sensation sharpened through a concentration in that point, or area, which would be a mere physical fact, not an inner one. He could even stimulate the area of the hara (abdomen) with a kind of deeper breathing, getting in such a way the illusion of a contact with the center of the force. In so doing, he not only would not have realized, not even remotely, the technique of contemplation of the mystical “void” of the abdominal area (an image of the doctrine specifies that hara is indeed “the door to the void”), but also, if he is not provided with strong self awareness, he is at risk of compromising his own psychic health.

[Stranger]

Eugene (this could also be of interest for Anthony)

Scaligero also wrote in the book "Kundalini of the West" (excuse rushed translation):

Scaligero is right and it's a known challenge for Westerners practicing Eastern techniques. I think it has more to do with culture and education than with ethnic genes. People with more influence of Western culture and who obtained Wester university-level education tend to be more thought/head centered. I observed it in Russia where more educated people from Western regions are more head-centered while people from Eastern regions and even less educated countryside people from Western regions tend to be more will/heart-centered. Western education and culture promotes abstract and discursive thinking and naturally shifts the center of mental activity to the head.

[Federica]

Eugene (this could also be of interest for Anthony)

Scaligero also wrote in the book "Kundalini of the West" (excuse rushed translation):

Scaligero is right and it's a known challenge for Westerners practicing Eastern techniques. I think it has more to do with culture and education than with ethnic genes. People with more influence of Western culture and who obtained Wester university-level education tend to be more thought/head centered. I observed it in Russia where more educated people from Western regions are more head-centered while people from Eastern regions and even less educated countryside people from Western regions tend to be more will/heard-centered. Western education and culture promotes abstract and discursive thinking and naturally shifts the center of mental activity to the head.

Eugene,

Scaligero is not writing about the known challenge you are referring to.
If I did not 'know' you, I would conclude from what you have written here that you hold a materialistic worldview.
In fact, I do argue that what is implied in your opinion above is a case when the dualistic baseline approach, thrown out of the door, gets back in through the window (do you have this saying in English?)
It's always ready to trick us, as soon as we are not carefully looking...


It happens to the best and it's easy to see it in others (please let me know when I will snap back to it - it's surely about to happen) From Ashvin's essay "12 signs that we are dualists":

The reason I put "we" in the title is to highlight the pervasive influence of dualistic thinking in the modern age, not only in the thought of those who intellectually disagree with us, but in our own daily thinking. If we have ever managed to extricate ourselves from this sort of thinking, then we can observe when our thinking will snap back to a dualistic mode during some parts of our day and, hopefully, ease up during other parts of the day. Generally, when we are absorbed in our work, especially if it requires a fair amount of intellectual thinking, it will seem as though we cannot help but think dualistically. That is because the very function of the intellect is to keep the 'subject' separated from the 'object' (and objects from other objects) so the latter can be analyzed more systematically and precisely. There have been times during the day when I completely forget how I had reasoned my way to certain holistic conclusions in the recent past. That happens because the mental habit of dualistic thinking has reasserted itself and my cognition is once again trapped within it's self-enclosed circular maze. Why is this dualism such an imprisoning force in our experience and what can we do about it?

[Federica]

Eugene (this could also be of interest for Anthony)

Scaligero also wrote in the book "Kundalini of the West" (excuse rushed translation):

Scaligero is right and it's a known challenge for Westerners practicing Eastern techniques. I think it has more to do with culture and education than with ethnic genes. People with more influence of Western culture and who obtained Wester university-level education tend to be more thought/head centered. I observed it in Russia where more educated people from Western regions are more head-centered while people from Eastern regions and even less educated countryside people from Western regions tend to be more will/heard-centered. Western education and culture promotes abstract and discursive thinking and naturally shifts the center of mental activity to the head.

Eugene,

Scaligero is not writing about the known challenge you are referring to.
If I did not 'know' you, I would conclude from what you have written here that you hold a materialistic worldview.
In fact, I do argue that what is implied in your opinion above is a case when the dualistic baseline approach, thrown out of the door, gets back in through the window (do you have this saying in English?)
It's always ready to trick us, as soon as we are not carefully looking...


It happens to the best and it's easy to see it in others (please let me know when I will snap back to it - it's surely about to happen) From Ashvin's essay "12 signs that we are dualists":

The reason I put "we" in the title is to highlight the pervasive influence of dualistic thinking in the modern age, not only in the thought of those who intellectually disagree with us, but in our own daily thinking. If we have ever managed to extricate ourselves from this sort of thinking, then we can observe when our thinking will snap back to a dualistic mode during some parts of our day and, hopefully, ease up during other parts of the day. Generally, when we are absorbed in our work, especially if it requires a fair amount of intellectual thinking, it will seem as though we cannot help but think dualistically. That is because the very function of the intellect is to keep the 'subject' separated from the 'object' (and objects from other objects) so the latter can be analyzed more systematically and precisely. There have been times during the day when I completely forget how I had reasoned my way to certain holistic conclusions in the recent past. That happens because the mental habit of dualistic thinking has reasserted itself and my cognition is once again trapped within it's self-enclosed circular maze. Why is this dualism such an imprisoning force in our experience and what can we do about it?

And from Cleric's comment to the essay:

...The big difficulty today is that it's not just about abolishing dualism. The trouble is that people don't know what the sober state is, because it is something that is only now beginning to enter the general evolution. This is also why non-dualism is such a misnomer today. It's not enough to just stop thinking about duality. If I'm not particularly bright then if I keep my mouth shut I'll probably get into less trouble. But this in itself won't make me smart. This is the challenge, that it's not just about abolishing dual thinking but about working towards a higher form of consciousness.

This is connected to the second thing. We should be very careful about identifying the enemy. I'm saying this after quite some years of head banging against the wall. I'll try to illustrate it thus. If we believe that we're not thinking dualistically then we're thinking dualistically

Consider this Yin Yang fractal:



When we look at the whole image we can think to ourselves "I'm completely balanced now, I'm outside the duality." But in fact, it can be said that we're in the blind spot in the dark half, looking at the white half and seeing there the fractal of the whole, which, however, we believe is the full picture. As a matter of fact there's no point of view 'outside' the polarity.
...