Seflf-causality of the reality of consciousness.

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Cleric K
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Re: Seflf-causality of the reality of consciousness.

Post by Cleric K »

Stranger wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 5:49 pm Regarding you description of the process, that's also pretty much how I see it - God in its final omniscient state embedding the abilities to consciously experience, think, will and feel into its original non-metacognitive void state plus the telos as an instinctive impulse to manifest physical reality thereby making the evolution of consciousness possible.
It is interesting to note that when speaking of ‘final’ and ‘original’ states, special care must be taken. Actually these things could be even dangerous for the intellect which tries to fit reality and Time in its thought forms.

But anyway, we can mention something which shouldn’t be expected to satisfy the intellect but at least should help it be saved from some of the traps. Probably these things are implied in what you say but let’s make them more explicit. This will seem rather abstract but it is still possible to form intuition about it.

Ashvin mentioned the simultaneous multiverse. Of course we shouldn’t be imagining universes like the space of the Cosmos populated with galaxies, stars, dust and so on. Instead we should picture states of being – first-person spiritual perspectives. We can picture an absolute state as the simultaneous superposition of all infinite states of being. This is only an idealization since that state can’t be experienced in such a way that it feels like “I’m now in the absolute state”. This would require some duration of experience which is transition between states, thus any of the states along the transition could not possibly be the absolute state.

Any state differentiated from the absolute superposition is experienced in relation to the infinity of other states. A nice metamorphic image for this is hyperbolic geometry:

Image

Practically, this means that if we pick a random state it will always be found to exist in relation to other states such that it feels as existing within a temporal flow of events. Most importantly, it will be found that the state exists in relation to the states of higher beings that support the evolutionary matrix. These higher beings seem to have evolved in earlier phases of evolution, which were created by still other higher beings, which by now have ascended even higher, and so on. Seen in this way, every state of being seems to be placed with an infinite evolutionary chain. We can never find the ‘first’ state. Effectively we have overlapping evolutionary waves of beings that seem to gradually awaken from dark unconsciousness and find themselves within complicated relations with other beings. Evolution is not simply a linear traversal of the infinite palette of possible states but also ‘vertical’ transition towards states that grasp more and more of the palette as simultaneous potential. From our temporal perspective it makes no sense to ask when and what happens when the full integration is achieved.

Even though this sounds very abstract, it makes an important point. Our metaphysical habits always make us imagine how the universe began. For example, it is almost taken for granted in BK’s scheme that MAL decided and dissociated into alters. One can’t help but imagine that the whole MAL existed in an undissociated state up until some point of time and then decided to split. What was here described aims to show that even at the time of this ‘splitting’, there was a full spectrum of conscious beings at different levels of evolution. This is important to note because otherwise we’re tempted to imagine that MAL is growing from the ground up and our human consciousness is currently the highest form of consciousness within MAL. But we always exist amidst beings of all stages of evolution – both higher and lower – which from our temporal perspective seem to have reached our time through an infinite evolutionary progression.
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Re: Seflf-causality of the reality of consciousness.

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Cleric K wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:39 pm Even though this sounds very abstract, it makes an important point. Our metaphysical habits always make us imagine how the universe began. For example, it is almost taken for granted in BK’s scheme that MAL decided and dissociated into alters. One can’t help but imagine that the whole MAL existed in an undissociated state up until some point of time and then decided to split. What was here described aims to show that even at the time of this ‘splitting’, there was a full spectrum of conscious beings at different levels of evolution. This is important to note because otherwise we’re tempted to imagine that MAL is growing from the ground up and our human consciousness is currently the highest form of consciousness within MAL. But we always exist amidst beings of all stages of evolution – both higher and lower – which from our temporal perspective seem to have reached our time through an infinite evolutionary progression.
Good point, Cleric, which I think means that the fabric of time in not linear but multidimensional where the beings at higher levels of evolution can retroactively interact with the beings at the lower levels and the advancement of the overall evolution of consciousness does not only progress along the linear time of our apparent physical universe. Actually you can hear similar descriptions in many NDE accounts where they claim that in a discarnate state there is no sense of linear time and beings can interact with humans at any point in the linear material time. Also, see this: Multiple time dimensions
As a solution to the problem of the subjective passage of time, J. W. Dunne proposed an infinite hierarchy of time dimensions, inhabited by a similar hierarchy of levels of consciousness. Dunne suggested that, in the context of a "block" spacetime as modelled by General Relativity, a second dimension of time was needed in order to measure the speed of one's progress along one's own timeline. This in turn required a level of the conscious self existing at the second level of time. But the same arguments then applied to this new level, requiring a third level, and so on in an infinite regress. At the end of the regress was a "superlative general observer" who existed in eternity.[12] He published his theory in relation to precognitive dreams in his 1927 book An Experiment with Time and went on to explore its relevance to contemporary physics in The Serial Universe (1934).
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Re: Seflf-causality of the reality of consciousness.

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AshvinP wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:15 pm But notice in my description/model, "God" as any spiritual being(s) who we can relate to with our "I"-sense, with what you may refer to as Platonic ideation, don't exist. Isn't this a major difference than with your model and many traditional spiritual understandings? Yet the logic of both models are equally internally coherent, so what makes one more objectively valid than the other?
Sorry, I don't understand, can you elaborate? What is exactly the difference between these models?
Also, your comment above about a "original non-metacognitive void state" suggests we are still thinking of it as a linear progression from instinctive consciousness to supra-intelligent, purposeful Deity. When you include "plus the telos", doesn't this basically negate the "instinctive impulse", since Being acting with teleological purpose is not acting instinctively?
By "instinctive" I mean non-metacognitive, meaning that the MAL in that state does not know why it is doing what it is doing, but still acts according to the subconscious embedded telos.
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Re: Seflf-causality of the reality of consciousness.

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Stranger wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:04 pm
AshvinP wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:15 pm But notice in my description/model, "God" as any spiritual being(s) who we can relate to with our "I"-sense, with what you may refer to as Platonic ideation, don't exist. Isn't this a major difference than with your model and many traditional spiritual understandings? Yet the logic of both models are equally internally coherent, so what makes one more objectively valid than the other?
Sorry, I don't understand, can you elaborate? What is exactly the difference between these models?
Also, your comment above about a "original non-metacognitive void state" suggests we are still thinking of it as a linear progression from instinctive consciousness to supra-intelligent, purposeful Deity. When you include "plus the telos", doesn't this basically negate the "instinctive impulse", since Being acting with teleological purpose is not acting instinctively?
By "instinctive" I mean non-metacognitive, meaning that the MAL in that state does not know why it is doing what it is doing, but still acts according to the subconscious embedded telos.

In the model I provided, there are no supra-human beings who are actually structuring our physical sensory world with their conscious Ideational activity. The mythology of such beings would simply be the anthropomorphization of the fundamental physical forces according to our own W-F-T experience. I am assuming it's clear that this is not my actual view, but rather it is being used to illustrate that any number of internally coherent models can be constructed with the intellect and judged equally plausible and valid, with no way for the intellect to discern which is objectively valid. Doesn't this indicate to us that the intellect is only investigating its own thought-structure with such models, rather than any higher living dynamics of Consciousness? They can all be internally coherent, in practically equal measure, because our thinking has arbitrarily limited itself within the horizontal plane of metaphysical concepts.

Then it inevitably runs into the limits of its own conceptual activity, thereby creating irresolvable theoretical conundrums such as you stated above. MAL purposefully embeds a telos, but also doesn't know why it embedded the telos. How can we reconcile these two without lapsing into the idolatry of linear time?
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To give time symmetry:
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Re: Seflf-causality of the reality of consciousness.

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AshvinP wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:48 pm Then it inevitably runs into the limits of its own conceptual activity, thereby creating irresolvable theoretical conundrums such as you stated above. MAL purposefully embeds a telos, but also doesn't know why it embedded the telos. How can we reconcile these two without lapsing into the idolatry of linear time?
The model that I outlined involving linear time is only an illustration or a metaphor based on the concepts that we are familiar with from our human culture and language (such as linear time and linear causality). There is no other way I can communicate this paradigm in writing, but obviously it is much deeper than this flat and linear model if it has any truth in it at all. The key is not to interpret anything literally or dogmatically, but rather to grasp the underlying intuition of the beyond-time-self-causality that cannot be adequately described with abstractions of linear time and linear causality.
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Re: Seflf-causality of the reality of consciousness.

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Stranger wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:13 pm
AshvinP wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:48 pm Then it inevitably runs into the limits of its own conceptual activity, thereby creating irresolvable theoretical conundrums such as you stated above. MAL purposefully embeds a telos, but also doesn't know why it embedded the telos. How can we reconcile these two without lapsing into the idolatry of linear time?
The model that I outlined involving linear time is only an illustration or a metaphor based on the concepts that we are familiar with from our human culture and language (such as linear time and linear causality). There is no other way I can communicate this paradigm in writing, but obviously it is much deeper than this flat and linear model if it has any truth in it at all. The key is not to interpret anything literally or dogmatically, but rather to grasp the underlying intuition of the beyond-time-self-causality that cannot be adequately described with abstractions of linear time and linear causality.

We all already have that intuition, if it's the way things are. The question is how we do by make this intuition more conscious so that we can begin to 'grasp' it? Does the metaphysical modeling contribute anything to that goal or, actually, work counter-productively to that goal? That is what Cleric has been trying to illustrate with alternatives to the metaphysical modeling - illustrations which prompt us to search for the deeper vertical flow of our conceptual activity from within. You say the models are not to be taken literally, and are limited by our linear spatio-temporal language, which is of course true, but here are some of the conclusions reached:

Stranger wrote:1) At this point the MAL knows that in order for itself and for such omniscient state to exist it had to go through the whole process of evolution from the instinctive to metacognitive state through the development of cognition of individual alters, so it was necessary to have the telos and will to evolve implanted in the original non-metacognitive state of the MAL. However, at this point MAL abides beyond time, which allows it to act at any moment of its own evolution and of the historical apparent axis of time of the apparent world. This makes it possible to for the MAL to retro-causally “implant” the telos and will to evolve (and may be even the very ability to have conscious experience) into its own original instinctive state whereby creating its own cause to evolve and exist.

2) God in its final omniscient state embedding the abilities to consciously experience, think, will and feel into its original non-metacognitive void state plus the telos as an instinctive impulse to manifest physical reality thereby making the evolution of consciousness possible.

3) By "instinctive" I mean non-metacognitive, meaning that the MAL in that state does not know why it is doing what it is doing, but still acts according to the subconscious embedded telos.

If I am reading these and taking their meaning at least half-seriously, then I would hardly be pointed to any sort of vertical Time-integration, and would actually come to the opposite conclusion of what Cleric described in the last post:

Cleric wrote:Seen in this way, every state of being seems to be placed with an infinite evolutionary chain. We can never find the ‘first’ state. Effectively we have overlapping evolutionary waves of beings that seem to gradually awaken from dark unconsciousness and find themselves within complicated relations with other beings. Evolution is not simply a linear traversal of the infinite palette of possible states but also ‘vertical’ transition towards states that grasp more and more of the palette as simultaneous potential. From our temporal perspective it makes no sense to ask when and what happens when the full integration is achieved.


I think Federica's initial response also indicates that the vertical Time-integration intuition is not evident or clear from the metaphysical model. That's the thing - even if "beyond-time-self-causality" is mentioned somewhere, and this is intended to mean the vertical depth integration, it takes something well beyond metaphysical models to provide an adequate context for how such a concept should influence our understanding of Earthly consciousness and events, i.e. the roles and functioning of Deities acting into our lives from higher levels of integration. That is why Cleric must write multiple lengthy illustrative posts to circumambulate that intuition. At what point do we stop thinking this veiling is a bug of abstract metaphysical thinking and realize that it is a feature? It is the very purpose of this evolved thinking mode to ignore-negate the vertical depth intuition, because the conscious presence of that intuition would make most of our Earthly endeavors quite impractical to pursue. And we have not yet evolved the capacity to simply switch off this thinking mode when we go from an engineering problem to investigating the deepest existential secrets of the Divine Cosmos.
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There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
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Re: Seflf-causality of the reality of consciousness.

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AshvinP wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 1:01 am We all already have that intuition, if it's the way things are. The question is how we do by make this intuition more conscious so that we can begin to 'grasp' it? Does the metaphysical modeling contribute anything to that goal or, actually, work counter-productively to that goal? That is what Cleric has been trying to illustrate with alternatives to the metaphysical modeling - illustrations which prompt us to search for the deeper vertical flow of our conceptual activity from within. You say the models are not to be taken literally, and are limited by our linear spatio-temporal language, which is of course true, but here are some of the conclusions reached:
I only provided a very sketchy outline of the idea for starters illustrated using a simplistic model of the linear timeline evolution. Of course, there is much more to it involving evolution progressing vertically, vertical integration and interactions with beings on multiple levels and realms, with Avatars from higher levels incarnating into our timeline and so on. Of course, the evolution of consciousness as a whole is a much richer multidimensional process compared to humanoid evolution on Earth in linear time (which is only a small part of it). I did briefly mentioned in my root post that "This soul’s evolution may involve ascending through multiple hierarchical levels of cognition". But if you think the core idea by itself is plausible and worth exploring, you and Cleric are welcome to elaborate on it, illustrate with images and enrich with deeper meanings about the integration into the vertical structures (which Cleric already did so eloquently). I'm not so good at doing that, so I'll leave it for you.
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Re: Seflf-causality of the reality of consciousness.

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Stranger wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 1:37 am
AshvinP wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 1:01 am We all already have that intuition, if it's the way things are. The question is how we do by make this intuition more conscious so that we can begin to 'grasp' it? Does the metaphysical modeling contribute anything to that goal or, actually, work counter-productively to that goal? That is what Cleric has been trying to illustrate with alternatives to the metaphysical modeling - illustrations which prompt us to search for the deeper vertical flow of our conceptual activity from within. You say the models are not to be taken literally, and are limited by our linear spatio-temporal language, which is of course true, but here are some of the conclusions reached:
I only provided a very sketchy outline of the idea for starters illustrated using a simplistic model of the linear timeline evolution. Of course, there is much more to it involving evolution progressing vertically, vertical integration and interactions with beings on multiple levels and realms, with Avatars from higher levels incarnating into our timeline and so on. Of course, the evolution of consciousness as a whole is a much richer multidimensional process compared to humanoid evolution on Earth in linear time (which is only a small part of it). I did briefly mentioned in my root post that "This soul’s evolution may involve ascending through multiple hierarchical levels of cognition". But if you think the core idea by itself is plausible and worth exploring, you and Cleric are welcome to elaborate on it, illustrate with images and enrich with deeper meanings about the integration into the vertical structures (which Cleric already did so eloquently). I'm not so good at doing that, so I'll leave it for you.

Fair enough. Ultimately I am simply trying to highlight what Cleric wrote in the first post, about how you won't get much feedback on this hypothesis because it stretches the limit of the linear intellect and there are basically two options at that point - 1) ignore it, or 2) snap back to linear progression from instinctive MAL, who evolves metacognition, combines into super-alters, reaches back to MAL stage, decides to forget its MAL nature but leave a telos by which the new alters can reach back to MAL again through instinctive impulse. We are saying #2 is very misleading, because the instinctive impulses - and all lower inner forces - are corporeal extensions of the 'meta-cognitive' non-corporeal Ideas which are simultaneously active. What from the intellectual perspective looks like beings evolving through instinctive impulses, is from a higher integrated perspective the experience of first-person spiritual activity which structures entire epochs of evolution and kingdoms of nature. In other words, the full experiential perspective of any given being at any given time only makes sense by virtue of the entire hierarchical layers of cognition - the holarchy - working into that perspective. There is no point at which any being can look out and say the higher beings of the holarchy decided to stop existing and start the process over again. I am wondering if, assuming that also aligns with your intuition, that has any implications for the conclusions of the model?
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Re: Seflf-causality of the reality of consciousness.

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AshvinP wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:43 am There is no point at which any being can look out and say the higher beings of the holarchy decided to stop existing and start the process over again. I am wondering if, assuming that also aligns with your intuition, that has any implications for the conclusions of the model?
I think the model aligns quite well with your vision of the "vertical Time-integration dynamics" in this post. From this beyond-linear-time perspective the higher beings never actually "decided to stop existing and start the process over again" and MAL never "decides to forget its MAL nature but leave a telos", but from the perspective of the linear time it seems like the higher beings would stop existing and the MAL would forget its nature.
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Re: Seflf-causality of the reality of consciousness.

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Stranger wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:55 pm
As a solution to the problem of the subjective passage of time, J. W. Dunne proposed an infinite hierarchy of time dimensions, inhabited by a similar hierarchy of levels of consciousness. Dunne suggested that, in the context of a "block" spacetime as modelled by General Relativity, a second dimension of time was needed in order to measure the speed of one's progress along one's own timeline. This in turn required a level of the conscious self existing at the second level of time. But the same arguments then applied to this new level, requiring a third level, and so on in an infinite regress. At the end of the regress was a "superlative general observer" who existed in eternity.[12] He published his theory in relation to precognitive dreams in his 1927 book An Experiment with Time and went on to explore its relevance to contemporary physics in The Serial Universe (1934).
Thank you, Stranger, for your reference to Dunne. The historical development of the idea of hierarchical time contexts has always been interesting to me but so far I haven’t found much written about it (one of the more recent examples I know about is https://www.academia.edu/245209/A_Fract ... _Cosmology). If you have other examples of authors that have explored these topics I’ll be happy to hear. As it should be clear already, my interest in this is not because I expect to find the ‘true’ theory of time in any of these writings but to approach an intimate experience of the way humanity’s cognitive process evolves.

Other than that, I hope you don’t find the discussion following your initial post, as a rude welcome to the forum, as if your effort is demeaned. In fact, the topics that you bring up are precisely the kind that can lead further and further. Most other less fruitful topics of the kind “What is alter?”, “Is MAL metacognitive?” and so on, never go further than empty abstract speculation. It is in this context that you should see the responses from Federica and Ashvin. We should really try to find the living bridge between thinking in concepts and higher intuition if humanity is not to remain torn between the sensory spectrum coupled with intellect and the higher worlds. Humanity’s survival in the most literal sense depends on consciousness growing into the depth of reality. There are so many things that should be worked upon but the transformation of thinking, even though not remotely enough in itself, is vital if higher realities are to be grasped with clear cognition, instead of becoming sources of fantasy.

It is in this light that the responses here should be seen, even though it might have looked like nitpicking. Our thought forms should increasingly become faithful expressions of inner reality. We must become increasingly careful when we throw around concepts like dimensions, energies, hierarchies and so on. Every concept should feel as capturing some definite inner ‘geometry’ of our intuitive being. If you don’t mind, I’ll give one more illustration of this.

In our intellectual life we more or less carelessly patch together concepts, especially in the metaphysical domain, which stand as floating thought structure in our consciousness. Let’s use a metaphor:

Image

The expanded state of the toy above can be taken to correspond to our intellectual ego that tries to build a mental picture of reality. If we are to trace the depth nature of thinking, it is as if we have to find a way to implode the intellectual forces towards their spiritual source. This is symbolized in the image above as the folding of the sphere. Alas, for the average person conditioned in our present civilization, this is quite impossible. Not only technically but one will even hardly understand what is here being spoken of. The reason is that the expanded sphere has taken a quite irregular form. And is this surprising? The average consciousness of man today consists of a tasteless patchwork of concepts loosely tied together, barely staying intact. It is an accumulation of things seen, heard, read. Especially in our age where we’re drowning in an ocean of information, this patchwork assumes the most wildly improbable configurations. Imagine that you take the expanded sphere in the image and randomize the links. Then if you try to fold it, linkages will start to bend, crack and fly all over the place. It is similar in today’s intellectual life. As long as we casually surf along the linkages of our patchwork we get a sense that we more or less have an encompassing grasp over reality. But the moment we try to implode this structure towards its spiritual kernel (which implies that we need to gain panoramic and holistic grasp over our intellectual life), it shatters in pieces. We see how our beliefs and world conceptions are built of contradictions upon contradictions.

It is interesting to note that many people have strong intuition about the deeper nature of man, yet their intellectual ego remains inflated over the irregular conceptual structure. This is why modern non-dual teachings are eagerly welcomed, since they convince the ego that it is enough for one to simply close their eyes for the irregular structure and rest in the nebulous feeling of their inner nature. Clearly this produces irreconcilable dichotomy between the inflated intellect and the deeper spiritual nature. One simply decides that this is how things are on Earth and carries the inflated patchwork through life as an unavoidable appendage, only taking temporary breaks now and then in mystical rest within their inexplicable deeper nature. Likewise, accepting that this dichotomy is in principle irreconcilable, practically gives the intellect green light to build whatever metaphysical patchworks it likes, since it knows that it will never have to implode and test them against living spiritual reality. This produces the Kantian divide.

So in this metaphor we need slow and patient work for the transformation of our intellectual patchwork such that it becomes resonant with the spiritual kernel of our higher being. Only in this way it becomes possible for the intellect to be breathed in (through meditative concentration of spiritual activity) and out. In contrast to Eastern meditation, this doesn’t leave us in an inexplicable state, completely opaque to the intellectual. Instead, we are fully conscious and active within deeper strata of our being and our activity there can be musically expanded into the intellectual sphere, where it crystalizes into concepts and images.

Another thing to note is that the ability to fold the geometry of the intellectual self is not only a matter of rectifying our purely mental nature. In fact, even greater obstacles are to be found in our soul nature, which can be metaphorically imagined as pressure, as magnetic repulsion that opposes the folding of the sphere. So we should be clear that the folding of even properly ordered conceptual sphere, may still be resisted by deeper forces in our soul. Most commonly these are of the nature of pride, fear, shame.

Basically we can use this metaphor as a map of where the conversations in this forum are located. A lot of them are simply patchworks over the expanded cognitive sphere, which simply has no chance of folding without breaking in pieces. In this sense, looking at that map, the responses of Federica and Ashvin should be taken as pointing attention to the folding process. They are not impulsive opposition (even if it may have looked like this to you) but attempt to lead the concepts into this folding process and test what can survive the implosion and what not. We should always remember that these attempts do not aim to build some finished and packaged theory of vertical cognition. This would be a gross misunderstanding of the whole endeavor. We’re merely learning to take our upright position and speak. In one way or another conceptual language should be developed through which we can freely breathe along the depth axis and share our discoveries in the same way we can speak about mathematics, pain or joy. The broad outlines of this language have been given by exceptional individualities that through the ages are always the heralds of new impulses that are to be accommodated in the evolution of humanity. Our humble job is to simply continue and refine that work, such that the intellect can breathe freely and spiritual reality can become to us a shared experience, just like we accept the sensory world to unite us in a shared experience.

It might be of interest for you to take a look at something written a while ago. There a different metaphor is used – a ship and a vortex – but the idea is the same. It will be interesting to me to hear your thoughts.
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