Insight into the full nature of reality

[Cleric K]

I would like to lay at the footer of this post a garland of gratitude, for the wealth of insights that never fail to draw and activate entirely new patterns to guide understanding and tuning efforts, no matter how acquainted one might be with any of the experiences.

Within quotes, the passage that is catalizing my interest the most at this moment. That real configurations of the soul organ-waves realize each of our moods, opinions, ideas, and that the lawfulness attains such levels of accuracy and harmonical complexity is a deeply pacifying, and also encouraging thing to hear and try to approach in knowing.

Thank you Cleric!

Thank you, Federica!

As I wrote earlier to Eugene, I'm grateful to all of you because you are the teachers who give homework to me, the student. Even though I have written about the aliasing metaphor before, I could see new aspects now, which only expand the vocabulary (degrees of freedom) of the spirit. I have limited experience with arts but things are fully related. If the poet and poetess feel something within their souls but have no vocabulary to express it, it's not only that they cannot communicate it to others but most importantly - they themselves can't comprehend and make use of it. It remains as a vague feeling that never reaches fruition. It's the same with all the arts. It's the same with our intuition of the One spiritual reality which we try to express in thoughts, feelings and actions.

[AshvinP]

(...)
In reality we’re dealing with real soul and spiritual phenomena. Our interests, opinions, desires, ideas, sympathies, antipathies, all exist as completely real configurations of the organs of our soul (astral) body. And these organs are not inside our consciousness as spatial orbs that we can contain but rather as the invisible carrier waves of consciousness which format the aliased flow of our inner life through their relations, conjunctions, oppositions and so on. We are conscious of the soul organs only as far as we grasp in intuition the rhythmic processes within which our inner life unfolds.
(...)

I would like to lay at the footer of this post a garland of gratitude, for the wealth of insights that never fail to draw and activate entirely new patterns to guide understanding and tuning efforts, no matter how acquainted one might be with any of the experiences.

Within quotes, the passage that is catalizing my interest the most at this moment. That real configurations of the soul organ-waves realize each of our moods, opinions, ideas, and that the lawfulness attains such levels of accuracy and harmonical complexity is a deeply pacifying, and also encouraging thing to hear and try to approach in knowing.

Thank you Cleric!

Amen! Thanks Cleric!

I am always struck by how many seemingly arcane metaphors work to tune our understanding to deep dynamics of our spiritual Be-ing, and how they work so well. How is this so? It can only be because our metaphor-forming activity is also the Process of the World. The coagula of holistic Ideas into differentiated perceptual-conceptual structures and the solve into holistic Ideas enriched with the fruits of labor; the salt and the sulphur. “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned?"

Which therefore means the human be-ing is not an encapsulated bubble at the periphery of MAL, but participating in the entire depth gradient from the most mineralized perception-concept to the most holistic Idea. Every act of thought-feeling-perception is the entire Cosmic gradient from Alpha to Omega working into our present experience. 'Pure awareness' doesn't form metaphors! It is time for humanity to awaken that it isn't the only metaphor-forming community of be-ings in the Cosmos, and that its very be-ing is a metaphor for Cosmic Be-ing.

[Cleric K]

Personally, I think it would be most presumptuous to assert knowledge of what's best for the Cosmic Whole and it is similarly presumptuous that humans will be the species to discover it.

Lou, since Ashvin mentioned the seesaw analogy, I wondered if almost two years later you see it differently. The first time I wrote it to you, you responded:

Sorry, but your endless analogies simply don't work for me.

Let me give you a fresh example. We know hot and cold. We also know their balance. But imagine a being that has lived all its life in the exact same degree of coldness. For it that would be like laminar background of existence. It won't be recognizable because one needs to know at least few degrees of warmth in order to know that sense. So what we can grasp (what fits in our cabin, to borrow Federica's metaphor), are the small seesaws that we perceive and know both poles of. The big seesaw is the invisible one on whose far end we're standing, corresponding to the one-sided experience of coldness, which we don't even recognize.

It's interesting to me if you see things differently today.

[Lou Gold]

Personally, I think it would be most presumptuous to assert knowledge of what's best for the Cosmic Whole and it is similarly presumptuous that humans will be the species to discover it.

Lou, since Ashvin mentioned the seesaw analogy, I wondered if almost two years later you see it differently. The first time I wrote it to you, you responded:

Sorry, but your endless analogies simply don't work for me.

Let me give you a fresh example. We know hot and cold. We also know their balance. But imagine a being that has lived all its life in the exact same degree of coldness. For it that would be like laminar background of existence. It won't be recognizable because one needs to know at least few degrees of warmth in order to know that sense. So what we can grasp (what fits in our cabin, to borrow Federica's metaphor), are the small seesaws that we perceive and know both poles of. The big seesaw is the invisible one on whose far end we're standing, corresponding to the one-sided experience of coldness, which we don't even recognize.

It's interesting to me if you see things differently today.

Cleric,

Sorry, but I'm having difficulty grasping the full context of your question or my previous response, so I'm unsure. Yes, grasping a bit points a direction but if the direction is analyzed along an incomplete understanding there may be the Einstein problem of not getting beyond a problem with more of the thinking that created it. Again I say, "I dunno" and perceive a great diversity of efforts as as the best systemic insurance that something might fit well (lawfully) in a changing contexts. But, with respect, I don't want to run loops. I do want excellence along paths. I'm only defending respect for many ways to participate in the expansion of awareness. I feel in terms of which one is best for me and don't project it as best for all.

[AshvinP]

Yikes, Ashvin. I never suggested "the average human today is at a stage where he will be of better service to the Cosmic whole through sacrificing greater awareness for 'grounding' rather than growing in Self-consciousness, i.e. 'individual achievement'?" so I'm happy to see your question mark. I say that the ego is a tool and the wise carpenter knows when to use a hammer AND when not. Thus, it's a dynamic in-process both/and and not an either/or to which it can be reduced. My answer would be, as in nature in general, varietal diversity of grounding-and-growing options are the insurance that something will work under new conditions. Surely there will not be one way for all individuals and locations.. This does not mean that anything goes. It means that relativity and diversity are essential to the process of systemic trial-and-error. Personally, I think it would be most presumptuous to assert knowledge of what's best for the Cosmic Whole and it is similarly presumptuous that humans will be the species to discover it. My prejudice is that our Anthropocene track record into current industrial civilization and its discontents is not great. On balance, I think the Age of Conquest is ending and I don't know the new particulars or how they might, for better or worse, fall in place. The faith I hold firm just tells me that Love and Compassion are becoming ever more important.

Lou,

This is why I made the earlier comment about the inversion which takes place when we get into the living thinking movement behind the fininshed results of our concepts - we discern it is presumptuous, reflecting over-confidence in the reality of our own concepts, to indefinitely keep 'open' the both/and approach which alleviates us of taking over concrete responsibility for the Earth's evolution into the Cosmic Whole, by building the living (detailed) bridge between the phenomenal appearances and the spiritual realities. If we are not the species to do it, then who?

I also think Federica's critique of Eugene's model above is valid in this case as well. We aren't living in a reality where vague generalities which indefinitely hold open both/and are going to motivate concrete spiritual direction. We are here on this forum trying to chart out a path into the depths of human existence as natural and cultural (spiritually active) beings. How do we do that more and more effectively? Only through the perfection of our thinking instrument i.e. living Self-consciousness. All genuine deeds of Love towards others presuppose such a growing Self-consciousness. An animal, child, etc. without that capacity simply cannot act of out anything but unconscious impulses and narrow self-interest.

You asked specifically about a 'bias' with regards to our aiming towards self-awareness, and referenced great spiritual beings as examples of those who sacrifice such aims to lift others up, presumaby because you feel it would be a good approach for some individual humans today to be sacrificial in the same way. I quoted a passage which contextualizes those sacrifices within a holistic spiritual evolution of the Cosmos. You didn't address that context in your reply. Without that context, we can easily mistake something we are doing out of comfort and convenience for "sacrifice".

I was very careful to state my question in "we" terms and was not setting up a "who" accusation calling for prosecution and defense. Let's not go there. In general I perceive a modern achievement biased culture that often carries an incorrect implication that love is somehow earned where more achievement should be more rewarded and separates rather than unites.

About up and down, I agree with your signature quote: "We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." -Teilhard de Chardin Some may have this experience to learn or attain awareness; some may do so to help reduce suffering. Many go up, down, laterally and bounce around a bit. I was seeing all as part of a both/and systemic or holistic diversity.

Is this not also the either/or distinction you keep criticizing? Why would attaining Self-awareness be other than helping to reduce the suffering of the World, if the Self is not other than the World? This sort of projection happens very often and the only way to know whether we ourselves are engaged in it is to grow in self-awareness. It all comes back to self-awareness, no matter how you slice it. We, and Cleric especially, have gone to great efforts on this forum to illustrate why we can say the individual human be-ing is a living image of the Macrocosm, a cross-section of the entire depth gradient which includes all human collectives and humanity as a Whole, i.e. as a human group-soul. Growing in self-awareness (in the vertical spiritual sense, rather than horizontal psychological sense) is the same as growing into the very soul-experience of all other human beings who suffer. Now if these illustrations are simply brushed off with little attention, then it's no wonder the projection continues. As long as we are content to let our reasoning be guided by personalized preferences and interests, i.e. 'you take your path and I will take mine and it hardly matters what the paths are', then we can't expect any harmonized understanding and goals to result, which can carry the Earth's evolution forward to a state of non-suffering for all.

"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea."

[Lou Gold]

Lou,

This is why I made the earlier comment about the inversion which takes place when we get into the living thinking movement behind the fininshed results of our concepts - we discern it is presumptuous, reflecting over-confidence in the reality of our own concepts, to indefinitely keep 'open' the both/and approach which alleviates us of taking over concrete responsibility for the Earth's evolution into the Cosmic Whole, by building the living (detailed) bridge between the phenomenal appearances and the spiritual realities. If we are not the species to do it, then who?

I also think Federica's critique of Eugene's model above is valid in this case as well. We aren't living in a reality where vague generalities which indefinitely hold open both/and are going to motivate concrete spiritual direction. We are here on this forum trying to chart out a path into the depths of human existence as natural and cultural (spiritually active) beings. How do we do that more and more effectively? Only through the perfection of our thinking instrument i.e. living Self-consciousness. All genuine deeds of Love towards others presuppose such a growing Self-consciousness. An animal, child, etc. without that capacity simply cannot act of out anything but unconscious impulses and narrow self-interest.

You asked specifically about a 'bias' with regards to our aiming towards self-awareness, and referenced great spiritual beings as examples of those who sacrifice such aims to lift others up, presumaby because you feel it would be a good approach for some individual humans today to be sacrificial in the same way. I quoted a passage which contextualizes those sacrifices within a holistic spiritual evolution of the Cosmos. You didn't address that context in your reply. Without that context, we can easily mistake something we are doing out of comfort and convenience for "sacrifice".

I was very careful to state my question in "we" terms and was not setting up a "who" accusation calling for prosecution and defense. Let's not go there. In general I perceive a modern achievement biased culture that often carries an incorrect implication that love is somehow earned where more achievement should be more rewarded and separates rather than unites.

About up and down, I agree with your signature quote: "We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." -Teilhard de Chardin Some may have this experience to learn or attain awareness; some may do so to help reduce suffering. Many go up, down, laterally and bounce around a bit. I was seeing all as part of a both/and systemic or holistic diversity.

Is this not also the either/or distinction you keep criticizing? Why would attaining Self-awareness be other than helping to reduce the suffering of the World, if the Self is not other than the World? This sort of projection happens very often and the only way to know whether we ourselves are engaged in it is to grow in self-awareness. It all comes back to self-awareness, no matter how you slice it. We, and Cleric especially, have gone to great efforts on this forum to illustrate why we can say the individual human be-ing is a living image of the Macrocosm, a cross-section of the entire depth gradient which includes all human collectives and humanity as a Whole, i.e. as a human group-soul. Growing in self-awareness (in the vertical spiritual sense, rather than horizontal psychological sense) is the same as growing into the very soul-experience of all other human beings who suffer. Now if these illustrations are simply brushed off with little attention, then it's no wonder the projection continues. As long as we are content to let our reasoning be guided by personalized preferences and interests, i.e. 'you take your path and I will take mine and it hardly matters what the paths are', then we can't expect any harmonized understanding and goals to result, which can carry the Earth's evolution forward to a state of non-suffering for all.

"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea."

Lovely quote.

[AshvinP]

I was very careful to state my question in "we" terms and was not setting up a "who" accusation calling for prosecution and defense. Let's not go there. In general I perceive a modern achievement biased culture that often carries an incorrect implication that love is somehow earned where more achievement should be more rewarded and separates rather than unites.

About up and down, I agree with your signature quote: "We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience." -Teilhard de Chardin Some may have this experience to learn or attain awareness; some may do so to help reduce suffering. Many go up, down, laterally and bounce around a bit. I was seeing all as part of a both/and systemic or holistic diversity.

Is this not also the either/or distinction you keep criticizing? Why would attaining Self-awareness be other than helping to reduce the suffering of the World, if the Self is not other than the World? This sort of projection happens very often and the only way to know whether we ourselves are engaged in it is to grow in self-awareness. It all comes back to self-awareness, no matter how you slice it. We, and Cleric especially, have gone to great efforts on this forum to illustrate why we can say the individual human be-ing is a living image of the Macrocosm, a cross-section of the entire depth gradient which includes all human collectives and humanity as a Whole, i.e. as a human group-soul. Growing in self-awareness (in the vertical spiritual sense, rather than horizontal psychological sense) is the same as growing into the very soul-experience of all other human beings who suffer. Now if these illustrations are simply brushed off with little attention, then it's no wonder the projection continues. As long as we are content to let our reasoning be guided by personalized preferences and interests, i.e. 'you take your path and I will take mine and it hardly matters what the paths are', then we can't expect any harmonized understanding and goals to result, which can carry the Earth's evolution forward to a state of non-suffering for all.

"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea."

Lovely quote.

Now how do we make it a lovely reality?

I'm sorry if the "projection" comment sounded too accusatory. As I often try to point out, these are not any sort of personal critiques. Since humanity is in fact One, we are always dealing with shared soul-forces and tendencies and, as Federica also mentioned before, we can only become more attuned to discerning them at play in others when we become more familiar with how they are at play within our own soul-life.

With that said, I am genuinely interested as to whether you have followed the illustrations and/or see why every individual human soul also belongs to the human group soul? As in, the soul-life of all human individuals, taken as a whole, revolves around the collective "I"-consciousness of humanity like our individual passions, desires, impulses, feelings, etc. revolve around our individual "I"-consciousness?

[Stranger]

--

[Stranger]

It is time for humanity to awaken that it isn't the only metaphor-forming community of be-ings in the Cosmos, and that its very be-ing is a metaphor for Cosmic Be-ing.

Absolutely, and not just a metaphor, but an actuality: our own be-ing it is actually the same as the Cosmic Be-ing. We all are "be-ing" in the same way as the whole Cosmos is "Be-ing".

Ontically, Dasein [Being] is not only close to us - even that which is closest: we are it, each of us, we ourselves.
(MARTIN HEIDEGGER, BEING AND TIME)

तत्त्वमसि tat tvam asi - you are THAT
(Chandogya Upanishad 6.8.7)

[/quote]

"I am telling you the truth," Jesus replied. "Before Abraham was born, 'I Am'."
(John 8:58)

Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”
God said to Moses, “I am who I am [יהוה YHWH]. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”
(Exodus 3.13)

saccidAnandarUpo’ham ahamevAham
I am of the nature of Existence-Consciousness-Bliss. I am the very Self, I am that I am.
(Adi Sankaracharya, Brahma Jnanavali Mala)

[Lou Gold]

Is this not also the either/or distinction you keep criticizing? Why would attaining Self-awareness be other than helping to reduce the suffering of the World, if the Self is not other than the World? This sort of projection happens very often and the only way to know whether we ourselves are engaged in it is to grow in self-awareness. It all comes back to self-awareness, no matter how you slice it. We, and Cleric especially, have gone to great efforts on this forum to illustrate why we can say the individual human be-ing is a living image of the Macrocosm, a cross-section of the entire depth gradient which includes all human collectives and humanity as a Whole, i.e. as a human group-soul. Growing in self-awareness (in the vertical spiritual sense, rather than horizontal psychological sense) is the same as growing into the very soul-experience of all other human beings who suffer. Now if these illustrations are simply brushed off with little attention, then it's no wonder the projection continues. As long as we are content to let our reasoning be guided by personalized preferences and interests, i.e. 'you take your path and I will take mine and it hardly matters what the paths are', then we can't expect any harmonized understanding and goals to result, which can carry the Earth's evolution forward to a state of non-suffering for all.

"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea."

Lovely quote.

Now how do we make it a lovely reality?

I'm sorry if the "projection" comment sounded too accusatory. As I often try to point out, these are not any sort of personal critiques. Since humanity is in fact One, we are always dealing with shared soul-forces and tendencies and, as Federica also mentioned before, we can only become more attuned to discerning them at play in others when we become more familiar with how they are at play within our own soul-life.

With that said, I am genuinely interested as to whether you have followed the illustrations and/or see why every individual human soul also belongs to the human group soul? As in, the soul-life of all human individuals, taken as a whole, revolves around the collective "I"-consciousness of humanity like our individual passions, desires, impulses, feelings, etc. revolve around our individual "I"-consciousness?

We "make" by show up and doing our work (and plaY) as best as we can within the Divinity.