Idealist vision for 2050?

[Cleric K]

Ashvin's got a point there

Children are imitators, they are like sponges absorbing their environment. That's what childhood is for - they learn about the world by absorbing it into themselves. Only much later they can start to have alternative visions of the world. It would be like saying "Listen, my child, everything you see around you is false - world made of lies and wickedness, you should dream about the world in this an that way". But this could have disastrous consequences for the child's development. The child must incarnate fully, even if it is in this wicked world. Only from there it can proceed to dream of a better world.

Children dream of things they see around them. For example they want to become astronauts, princesses, etc. They see things around them and are drawn towards them. In this sense, the only way to implant a dream, is for us to be living examples. If it is surrounded by wise, balanced, loving people, the child will imitate them. So it is really we, the adults, that should strive for perfection - the children will simply follow. Once the "I" in the child becomes fully awakened, then it can continue to contribute to the world through its own spiritual inspirations.

Things are quite tragic nowadays. Take even the simplest example: how could a child have any respect to a parent that says "It's forbidden for you to smoke", while he himself does it. Children are much more sensitive to these things than commonly supposed. They feel that as great injustice and such things shape their world outlook for life. No wonder why our whole civilization is so used of speaking of one thing and doing the opposite.

If we ourselves can not live to our highest ideals, there's no point trying to implant them to others. We can't give something that we don't possess.

[David_Sundaram]

So, let me ask: If, as an Idealist, you were planting a different dream in a child, what would it be?

This 'meta' dream -- the 'vision' given to Elizabeth Haich in the context of her past-life as an 'Initiate' in a 'higher', astrology oriented, pre-Biblical civilization -- may be too much for 'children' to take in, but human-history-familiar 'Idealists' may appreciate the past-present-and-future significances port-ray-ed herein:

(The excerpt is from Ch.35: THE EPOCHS OF THE WORLD, of Haich's book, titled Initiation)

"'The movements of the earth give us the impression not only that the vault
of stars is rotating about us, but also that other movements are taking place.
One of the most important movements the earth makes is that its axis
describes the surface of a cone. Whereas one of the end points of the earth's
axis remains relatively fixed, the other describes a circle. Because of this
movement, the vernal point in the cosmic wheel is slowly displaced. Seen
from the earth, it appears to be moving backward.

'The time it takes for the axis of the earth to complete one full conical
movement—moving from the vernal point in the zodiacal circle right round to
its starting point again—corresponds to 25,920 terrestrial years. We call this a
cosmic year. Divided by twelve, this number gives us a cosmic month, mainly
2,160 terrestrial years, the time it takes for the vernal point to move through
one zodiacal sign.

'The vibrations from the cosmos have such a great effect on the earth that
they even influence world history. The leading ideas in religion, science and
art are the result of the radiation of the particular constellation in which the
vernal point is moving throughout the course of a cosmic month. The
incarnated spirits on earth—that is to say humanity—must always achieve a
new epoch by reaching a new milestone in human development and
establishing themselves in the ideas of the time.

'A nation is a group of spirits, the incarnation of certain concentrations of
energy. Each epoch brings to the earth a different group of spirits, a different
race, and when this race has fulfilled its task of carrying out the new ideas and
developing a new civilization for the space of a cosmic month, it leaves the
earth in order to develop further on another planet. In every race, of course,
there are always individuals who don't quite "make the grade" before the end
of the epoch. These remain behind, like the dregs in a drink, and must
continue to develop on earth. That's the reason why a nation experiences a
sudden decline after achieving a high point in civilization. The highly
developed fathers of the nation are followed by degenerate and weak-willed
descendants, and the nation which was once greatly esteemed gradually falls
into debility and disrepute. These descendants are the dross of the nation
which has reached the highest degree of earthly development, become
spiritualized, and departed from the earth.

'The material world has come into being because interferences have
occurred in the divine creative radiations traversing cosmic space, and these
interferences have caused condensations, solidifications, materializations. If
the celestial bodies were to receive pure, untransformed vibrations of the
divine creative force, this would result in the immediate annihilation of all
matter. The fixed stars—the suns—are the great transformers which convert
the creative vibrations from all celestial bodies and transmit them in wavelengths
and frequencies that are tolerable for the earth. The transformed rays
reach us from the fixed stars which form the constellations of the zodiac. Thus
when we want to represent the highest divine radiation of energy, we choose
the symbolic form of the constellation with the strongest effect on the earth,
and this is always the "epoch-making constellation" through which the vernal
point is moving at the time.

'We are now living in an epoch in which the vernal point is moving into the
constellation of the Bull. God (Ptah) reveals himself to us in the radiation of
this constellation, and that's why the divinity manifesting itself in the
atmosphere of the earth is represented in the form of a bull, in the form of the
divine bull Apis. The complementary constellation of Scorpion-Eagle is
represented as I he temptress—a serpent crawling upon the earth—or in the
form of the divine falcon Horus. You know that this energy, as long as it is
earthly and expresses itself on the low plane binding spirit to matter, is the
serpent luring man back Into further incarnations. On the other hand when
this force is spiritualized, It helps man to experience, while still in the body,
the highest degree of spirituality.

'We use the serpent standing erect as the symbol of initiation, as the
mistress of the tree of recognition and knowledge. The initiate is a high-flying
eagle who has spiritualized the serpent—the power of the instinctive urge—
and manifests it as spiritual power through his intellect. The initiate is thus an
instrument of the divinity which reveals itself through the zodiacal sign of the
Bull. That's why in our epoch these animals are regarded as "holy animals"
throughout the entire world. Now you understand why the initiates change
their representations of God to accord with the constellation in which the
vernal point falls at any given time. Above and behind all these symbols, of
course, there always stands the unmanifested First Cause—divinity resting
within itself.

'The constellation of the Bull belongs to the threefold manifestation in
which the face of God has an earthly-material effect—contracting, drawing
together and hardening. This means that at the present time the forces that
build up matter and operate within it are the easiest and most immediately
available forces for the inhabitants of the earth to use. Our task is one of
conquering matter with matter, that means conquering matter with the
energies making up the essence of matter. We use the frequencies of matter,
these unseen and immeasurably powerful forces—in other words, the spirit of
matter—in order to conquer matter itself. We charge the matter of the ark of
the covenant with the entire octave of these energies and thus control the laws
of matter—the forces of construction and destruction, materialization and
dematerialization—as well as the weight of matter which we can either
overcome or increase at will.

'In time our truths will come to flower. But then as celestial movements
and changes continue, the earth will gradually move out of these regions in
the cosmos in which certain specific energies are working together to produce
our present epoch. Little by little certain of these energies will diminish, while
new ones come into the picture, and thus the total pattern of vibrations
affecting the earth will gradually shift. This means of course that the people
being born into life on the earth will be gradually changing. The time will
come when they won't understand our truths any more. The symbols and
words we use to express the mysteries of the laws of creation will lose their
content, becoming empty husks for thousands of years. Mankind will have to
learn through new tasks and surmount new obstacles in their accomplishment.

'You already know what is going to happen when the last high priest has
initiated the last candidate worthy of our knowledge. After giving this new
initiate the ark of the covenant and a staff of life, the last high priest will lock
himself and his assistant inside the great pyramid, block the entrance from
the inside with a stone fitting into the opening ... then the two of them will
dematerialize all our equipment and apparatus and lastly themselves in order to
save our secrets from falling into unworthy hands. Meanwhile the last initiate,
who will come forth out of a nation destined to create a new epoch in the
history of the earth, will salvage the ark of the covenant and his staff of life
and have them carried out of this country. He will proclaim to his people the
ideas of the new epoch in which the vernal point will move through a
constellation of the Ram. The two complementary constellations of the Ram
and the Balance will exert the strongest effect during that period.
'Come, my little daughter,' says Ptahhotep, 'Now I'll lay my hand on your
head and you will see pictures of times to come.'

Ptahhotep leads me to a couch on which the neophytes, under his guidance,
practise the ability of moving their consciousness freely throughout time,
intentionally seeking out the past and the future in order to experience them
as the present.

Ptahhotep bids me lie down, and no sooner has he laid his hand upon my
brow than I get the well-known buzzing and prickly feeling in my head. The
very next moment I see pictures which, in the symbolic language of dreams,
shows me the significance of events in the distant future."

(continued in my next post)

[David_Sundaram]

(continued from my preceding post)

"I see the reception room of the Pharaoh—a strange hall and an unknown
Pharaoh who is not an initiate like my father but who has a radiation of a very
low degree. Before him are two handsome, dignified men—two brothers with
noble, magnificent features. From their radiations I recognize that one is an
initiate while the other is only a quick-witted able speaker. The initiate is
silent while his brother uses his powers of oratory. He is trying to convince the
Pharaoh that he should free their people who are working as slaves in the
service of the Pharaoh and let them leave the country under the guidance of
these two men. The Pharaoh is hard of heart and refuses. He demands a
miracle. Then the brother who is doing the talking takes his staff and casts it
on to the ground In front of the Pharaoh. Instantly the staff turns into a
serpent crawling over the ground. The Pharaoh calls his magicians to give the
men an answer. They too cast their staffs upon the ground and these also turn
into serpents. But the first serpent devours all the serpents of the magicians.
I interpret the vision. The staff represents the intellect, a powerful
instrument. But when the intellect is bound to the earth and made to serve
purely material ends, it becomes a serpent crawling on the ground, a wily
temptress enticing man to selfishness. The two noble brothers struggle
unselfishly for their people. In their hands guile turns into wisdom which
destroys all the selfish arguments of the cowardly magicians.

Now the vision changes. The godlessness and selfishness of the Egyptians
causes new plagues and afflictions of growing severity. But still Pharaoh does
not yield. He still refuses to liberate the people from their bondage. Finally the
gravest scourge of all descends upon him. All the first-born of the people and I
heir animals, and even of Pharaoh's own household, are killed by the angels of
God in a single night. Only those who have eaten of the flesh of the lamb and
have written their names with lamb's blood on their doorposts are not killed
by the angels.

What does the symbol mean? In the new epoch just coming, the
complementary constellations of the Ram and the Balance will be dominant.
During the lime when the effect of the Ram constellation has not yet reached
full strength, the effect is that of a young ram, in other words a lamb. In their
blood, the people following this initiate have forces corresponding to the
radiation of the ram constellation. They are the forerunners of the new epoch,
the 'chosen people', able to proclaim to humanity the old truths in a new form.
Those who have fulfilled their destiny in the old epoch must now go. Their
task is over. The angels of God call them home.

Then I see a new vision. The mighty initiate leads his people out of Egypt.
And because the Ram is a fiery sign, a pillar of fire moves ahead of him to
show him the way. He leads his people out of the spiritual darkness prevailing
in Egypt at the end of this epoch. But Pharaoh's heart hardens again. He
regrets that he has allowed these people to leave his country in freedom. With
his entire army, he starts out in hot pursuit of the refugees. But the great
initiate, in order to protect his people, uses his staff of life. He directs against
Pharaoh's army the frequencies of ultra-matter which greatly intensify the
earth's gravitational force. Suddenly, Pharaoh with all his warriors, chariots,
and animals become as heavy as if rooted to the spot where they stand. Their
tremendously intensified weight pulls them irresistibly down into the earth.
And as all of this takes place on the seashore, the great waves of the sea finally
roll over Pharaoh and his entire army.

I am amazed! Not about the effect of the staff of life, but about the animals!
I have seen such strange and remarkable animals in Pharaoh's army. Some of
them were pulling the warriors' chariots, while others carried warriors on
their backs. The animals looked like zebras but were bigger and different in
colour—brown, white, grey and even black! I've never seen such animals!
Could these be the animals father once spoke about? Magnificent animals
they are too!

But the vision changes. The initiate wanders with his people through the
'desert', in the always difficult transitional period between two epochs. Two
different ages are never sharply separated from each other but rather flow
into each other gradually. Hence there is a transitional period in which the
effects of the two constellations—the old and the new—appear to be weakened
because of their mutual interference. The old ideas don't satisfy the new
generation any longer, while the old generations are unable to accept and
assimilate the new ideas. The greater portion of the people turn back to their
old, ossified ideas, that is, to the ideas of the constellation of the Bull. But
these ideas no longer have the power of a full size bull. On the contrary,
greatly weakened, their strength is only that of a little bull, a calf. In the
symbolic language of dreams, spirit is always gold, and so in my vision of the
future I see the people of the initiate dancing about a golden calf and
worshipping it.

In the meantime the great initiate is 'on the mountain' and speaking 'face to
face with God'. He is in the very highest state of consciousness, identical with
God. He is the bearer of the will of God. It is God's will that he proclaim the
new ideas to his people through two religious symbols, the sacrificial lamb,
symbol of the constellation of the Ram, and the two tablets with God's ten
commandments, symbol of the constellation of the Balance.

The sacrificial lamb is the divine self which, clothed in matter, allows itself
to be crucified on the two great beams of the three-dimensional world, time
and space, thus giving up its own life in order to save the earth through
spiritualizing it.

The two tablets of commandments, like the ones in our temple, on the head
of the sacred falcon Horus, symbol of the divine self, the creative principle
traversing space, stand as symbols for the inner structure of the self
manifesting itself in the soul as moral laws.

For more than two thousand years these divine truths will be the guiding
ideas and the religious symbols of the people. These divine truths will be the
challenge of the new epoch.

When the initiate brings the finished tablets of commandments and sees
his people worshipping the golden calf, he bursts out in such a fit of rage that
he dashes the tablets to the ground and smashes them in pieces while he asks
God to punish the disobedient people.

Then came venomous serpents, symbols of the temptress, the snake, the
driving force of the constellation Scorpion. The serpents fall down out of the
sky and bite the people that have worshipped the golden calf. They suffer
terribly from the poisonous bites. The initiate takes pity on the hapless
people. In the middle of their camp he sets up two beams in the form of a 'T'
and he places a brass snake perpendicular to it, with its head up. This is the
symbolic representation of the tree of recognition and knowledge, the tree of
the serpent. No longer creeping along the ground, but with its head upward,
the serpent ceases to be the great temptress enticing people into the body and
becomes a symbol of the highest wisdom leading men back into unity, to God.
All the sick people who look upon this brass serpent quickly become well
again.

Interpreting the vision, I understand that people who cannot or will not
accept the ideas of the new era fall ill spiritually. They no longer find their
place among people and fall into deep spiritual conflict. They can only be
healed by being guided back into the mid-point of their own being where the
tree of the serpent stands. When they look upon this tree—without eating of
its fruits— they recognize the divine truths without exploiting them for their
own selfish purposes, and they are healed. Wisdom and selfless omniscience
heal every disease of the soul.

The visions of the future go on. The great initiate leads his people up to the
threshold of the new epoch, up to the borders of the promised land. Then he
goes up into a mountain and disappears. No one ever finds his body. I know
that he has dematerialized himself just like the last initiated high priests have
de-materialized themselves with their secret instruments and apparatus in the
great pyramid.

The chosen people who are called to proclaim and carry out the ideas of the
new epoch wander onward, guarding the wisdom and the secret teaching of
their great master. But little by little the ark of the covenant loses its magical
power, and there is no initiate left to recharge it with his staff of life ...

A cosmic month goes by, and the axis of the earth moves a twelfth of the
way around the surface of its conic orbit. Slowly the vernal point passes over
into the sign of the Fishes. Once again people are unsettled. They can no
longer find truth in the worn out, conventionalized ideas of the previous age.
They resemble a herd of sheep without a shepherd. In this transitional period
an avatar—-a son of God—the great teacher of the coming epoch, is born with
the supreme task of revealing the greatest mystery of creation by enabling
God to walk incarnate upon the earth.

This son of God is the earthly image of the heavenly sacrificial lamb. Just as
the divine cosmic self sacrifices itself, taking upon itself the matter of the
three-dimensional world and the everlasting crucifixion of the two great
beams of time and space, in this same manner this Son of God who manifests
fully the divine self in his human body, must accept the vengeance of the spirit
of matter as he undergoes death at the hands of ignorant people.

A person who in his consciousness identifies himself with his body lies in
inner darkness and resembles a stable with animals—the animal-physical
instincts—living in it. In this stable and in this darkness—just as in the
darkness of night—the divine child is born, the consciousness of the self. Two
kinds of people recognize the divine child and bow low before him: The plain,
simple, unlettered and unlearned who do not yet know the doubting of the
intellect and who live in unison with nature, like shepherds for example; and
the knowing ones and initiates who have already travelled the long path of the
intellect, have overcome their earlier propensity towards intellectual
cleverness, and have learned to look at things with their inner sight after the
manner of the wise men and mystics in the East.

The religious symbols of the new era are Fishes and the Virgin, the two
complementary signs. The son of God chooses his co-workers from other
'fishermen'. He pays the tax he owes to the earth with a golden coin which he
takes from the mouth of a 'fish'. He draws forth for humanity the nourishment
of his teaching from these two complementary signs. But his teachings are
heard by people of varying degrees of development. To those who have
already awakened in spirit and have therefore attained the fifth level—the
spiritual plane—to these 'five thousand' people he gives all his teachings, the
two fishes and the five loaves, the five grains of wheat on the ear in the hand
of the virgin in her symbolic representation. But even these 'five thousand'
people who are already awakened in spirit cannot completely receive his
highest ideas, not even in an entire epoch! Of the nourishment he has given
there remain twelve baskets full of remnants. This means that humanity must
learn the mysteries of the self in each manifestation of the twelve signs of the
zodiac. In order to understand and attain these high truths, humanity needs
twelve epochs, twelve ages, that is a full cosmic year—25,000 terrestrial years.
To all of those who have only been able to rise in their consciousness up to
the fourth plane—the 'four thousand' people—the son of God does not
distribute all the truths of the two signs of the zodiac as nourishment but only
'some' fishes and five loaves. But even this 'some' of his ideas is too much for
them to eat, and there remain seven baskets of remnants. Materialistic people
must first learn the mysteries of the seven planes before they are ready for the
cosmic truths of the self.

The sign of the Fishes belongs to the aqueous triangle. Hence in this epoch
humanity must stand up to the challenge of water. It must conquer water
with water. And before my astonished eyes I see a machine by means of
which people make use of the power of water transformed into steam. And I
see great ships— like cities!—crossing the sea with enormous speed. They too
are driven by the power of water transformed into steam. Mankind passes the
test: it conquers water with water.

In medical science too water dominates the picture as a therapeutic agent.
Everywhere I see bathing establishments, spas and medicinal baths making
use of water for all kinds of cures and treatments: Salt water baths, marsh
baths, hot and cold baths, compresses, and many many other applications of
water for the curing of physical ills. People even take advantage of the healing
power in dew by walking about barefoot in the wet grass.

Then towards the end of this era when the vernal point approaches the next
constellation—that of the Water Bearer—people make technical discoveries
and inventions based on wave energies. This is one of the early effects of the
budding Water Bearer era, an age of technical achievement. The radiation of
the Water Bearer constellation, which knows no limitations and sweeps all
obstacles out of its path, reveals itself in the ideas and social concepts of
humanity. At the end of the era of the Fishes, these new energies cause great
revolutions in the places where people react most powerfully to them. I see
thousands of people of the ruling class sitting in prison, while a spirit with the
characteristics of the new coming era decapitates or otherwise kills countless
people of the upper class.

A vision from the time when the energies of the Water Bearer are working
with full power shows me that the great teacher of this epoch abolishes all the
boundaries between the three dominant religions. With his own person he
proves that the inner core of all religions is one and the same truth, one and
the same God. The boundary between religion and science disappears too, as
people discover that everything, even matter, is a wave movement. They learn
that the only differences between manifestations of the spirit and those of
matter are differences of frequency, while in its essence everything is only the
manifestation of the one, single, prime source of all forces, God. Everything is
a wave, just as the symbolic representation of the Water Bearer constellation
shows: a supernal being pouring waves out of his pitcher.

The spiritual movements on the earth show this effect. Science discovers
the 'wave' theory, and I see countless inventions based on waves. I see
pictures of people, landscapes and objects—pictures made by the effect of
light waves. I see different kinds of devices which send out waves. Waves
penetrate matter and reveal its solidity. There are waves that show what
elements are present in the matter of the planets and fixed stars, electric
waves, waves of sound, light and smell. Medical science has stopped giving
treatments with water in favour of treatments based on waves. All kinds of
waves, from infra-red to ultra-violet, short waves and still shorter waves, even
more penetrating waves and frequencies ... all in use by science!

The constellation of the Water Bearer belongs to the airy face of God. And
mankind conquers the air with air, with energies won from matter in the airy
state. I see people moved onward from the steam engine to other machines
operated by gas. And then my astonished eyes follow huge locusts high up in
the air, made by human hands and carrying people in their bellies! These
machines are powered by gas: Air conquers air ...

Through the complementary sign of the Lion people again recognize the
strongest manifestation of God on earth. The sun, the great Ra, is again
acknowledged as the prime source of all manifestation of earthly energy. Once
more people have become sun worshippers, even though not in a religious
sense. The influence of the Lion shows itself in another plane too. The effect of
the Water Bearer is to abolish all boundaries, all limitations. But the absence
of boundaries without a concentrating mid-point means mental disease,
spiritual death. The boundlessness of the Water Bearer would affect the
unconscious masses as a mental illness running throughout all humanity,
causing anarchy and chaos, and destroying everything. Through the
complementary sign of the Lion, however, dominion is concentrated in
individual persons—dictators —who group the people about themselves and
guide them.

In this epoch people discover traffic and intercourse with other planets.
Boundaries and obstacles disappear, and with them the isolated state of the
earth in cosmic space. And as the boundaries between countries disappear
too, all humanity is governed from one centre. 'One stable, one shepherd.'
The eternal wheels roll on, and the earth moves into a new epoch, under
the sign of the Goat and its complementary constellation, the Crab.
People direct their attention to the earth again, noticing that although their
knowledge may be very great, they still know very little about their own
marvellous mother, mother earth. In this epoch they solve the problem of
conquering earth. The sign of the Goat belongs to the earthly face of God.
People design a special machine based on the same principle as that of our ark
of the covenant. With it, they control the weight of matter. That is, they can
overcome the earth's gravitational pull, or through ultra-material radiations,
they can vastly increase it. People communicate with each other directly
through the earth—in the depths of the mountains—in short straight lines,
instead of taking the long way around the earth. This new machine of theirs
radiates an energy which dematerializes everything in front of it, thus moving
forward quickly, freely, without let or hindrance. At the same time it spews
out condensing and solidifying radiations behind it restoring the matter of the
earth to its original condition. People have conquered matter with matter,
with the energy of ultra-matter. This enables them to penetrate into the
depths of the earth and harness for the service of mankind the enormous
forces and energies raging there like primordial volcanoes.

The combination of the two zodiacal signs of the Goat and the Crab has a
strong influence on the spiritual life of mankind. The great teacher of this
epoch reveals unto man the mystery of the immeasurable sources of power
hidden in the depths of the human soul. Those who hold the key to these
sources of power possess abilities which the ignorant call 'supernatural'. All
over the earth I see public schools where even little children are taught to
attain these higher abilities through the kind of exercises which only
candidates for the priesthood are permitted to practise in our temples. This
high and wonderful knowledge spreads into ever greater circles, reaching ever
greater numbers of people.

The visions suddenly pale as I come back to normal consciousness. Still
lying on the couch, I'm almost dizzy from the tremendous experiences of the
future. Ptahhotep stands in front of me and helps me get up. He ends his
instructions for today.

'As you see, my child, the inhabitants of the earth receive their initiation in
small groups and then in larger and larger ones, all inter-related one with the
other. A person can be initiated individually within his own lifetime, and a
nation can receive initiation if it works its way up to the highest level of
development and fulfils its task here on earth. Eventually the whole world will
receive initiation by completing the full circle of the four faces of God,
experiencing step by step all stages of initiation in a systematic development,
and finally achieving complete spiritualization—salvation from matter.
Measured according to earthly time standards, it will take ages and ages for
this development to be achieved. For countless times the earth will have to go
through the zodiacal circle, both in terrestrial and cosmic years. I've shown
you only the tiniest part of this exceedingly long path of development. The
history of mankind on earth is not a matter of accident or happenstance. It's
important for you to know that every step of development takes place
according to divine providence, following a divine plan. A person can cover
this infinitely long way in a single lifetime if he concentrates his will
exclusively on this goal.'

As he gives me his benediction, Ptahhotep says, 'Come back again
tomorrow; I have important things to tell you.'"

[Lou Gold]

So, let me ask: If, as an Idealist, you were planting a different dream in a child, what would it be?

Please respond as if talking to that child rather than (for example) saying that you'd send the child to a Waldorf School. How would you express the dreaming seed to the child? What vision would you plant?

"Listen here, Buck-O. You know those monsters you imagine are hiding under you bed and in your closet? They are REAL and they aren't going anywhere, so learn to live with them. They are hiding from you like you are hiding from them. Don't try to hide anymore, everyone wants to be found. If you pay attention to them now, they won't devour you later. Got it? Good. Now clean up your damn room!"

Or consider the following scenarios:

1) Four year old boy screams out from his room, obviously having a nightmare. Father rushes to the room asking "What's up?" Kid says there's a bear under my bed. Father turns on the light, shows that there is no bear and says, "It was just a bad dream." Kid feels foolish and starts separating from dreams.

2) Same scenario. Father says, "This happened to me at your age. My father and I went and got cookies and milk to leave under the bed in case the bear returns. This way we can become friends." Kid likes the idea, feels protected by his wise father and is empowered further into his dreams.

[Lou Gold]

may be too much for 'children' to take in

etc, etc

Might be.

[Lou Gold]

Ashvin's got a point there

See my response above

Children are imitators, they are like sponges absorbing their environment. That's what childhood is for - they learn about the world by absorbing it into themselves. Only much later they can start to have alternative visions of the world. It would be like saying "Listen, my child, everything you see around you is false - world made of lies and wickedness, you should dream about the world in this an that way". But this could have disastrous consequences for the child's development. The child must incarnate fully, even if it is in this wicked world. Only from there it can proceed to dream of a better world.

[Lou Gold]

Ooops. I'm terrible using the codes. Lemme try again.

Ashvin's got a point there

See my comment above.

Children are imitators, they are like sponges absorbing their environment. That's what childhood is for - they learn about the world by absorbing it into themselves. Only much later they can start to have alternative visions of the world. It would be like saying "Listen, my child, everything you see around you is false - world made of lies and wickedness, you should dream about the world in this an that way". But this could have disastrous consequences for the child's development. The child must incarnate fully, even if it is in this wicked world. Only from there it can proceed to dream of a better world.

Children are not just imitators or merely immature adults. They are also magnificently real, curious and creative beings. At the level of story, it takes a child to see the Emperor has no clothes and it is advised to be as a child in order to enter Heaven.

Children dream of things they see around them. For example they want to become astronauts, princesses, etc. They see things around them and are drawn towards them. In this sense, the only way to implant a dream, is for us to be living examples. If it is surrounded by wise, balanced, loving people, the child will imitate them. So it is really we, the adults, that should strive for perfection - the children will simply follow. Once the "I" in the child becomes fully awakened, then it can continue to contribute to the world through its own spiritual inspirations.

No doubt essential for the child to be "surrounded by wise, balanced, loving people." It must be understood and practiced that "it takes a village to raise a child."

Things are quite tragic nowadays. Take even the simplest example: how could a child have any respect to a parent that says "It's forbidden for you to smoke", while he himself does it. Children are much more sensitive to these things than commonly supposed. They feel that as great injustice and such things shape their world outlook for life. No wonder why our whole civilization is so used of speaking of one thing and doing the opposite.

Yup! And a more challenging question than "smoking" is, "How do people not living in harmony with nature teach children harmonious ways of being with nature?"

If we ourselves can not live to our highest ideals, there's no point trying to implant them to others. We can't give something that we don't possess.

Indeed, the essence of the Golden Rule is love yourself in context of all your relations. I suspect that the new story must be about reciprocity with the full community of life.

[David_Sundaram]

may be too much for 'children' to take in

etc, etc

Might be.

What I shared was 'aimed' at those here who (I imagined) might be ready to go 'beyond' being 'children' - the above part of my statement which you quoted was just a 'nod' to those (here or elsewhere) who weren't (ready). If I had a 'child' I was taking care of, I actually would let him or her know something about life-after-death and reincarnation as well as how (I think) civilization progresses (thought trouble) so he.she wouldn't get bummed out by the current state humanity is in.

[David_Sundaram]

So, let me ask: If, as an Idealist, you were planting a different dream in a child, what would it be?

Please respond as if talking to that child rather than (for example) saying that you'd send the child to a Waldorf School. How would you express the dreaming seed to the child? What vision would you plant?

One 'dream; I wouldn't 'plant' is the idea that they can turn things (the course of events@large) around and 'heal' 'the world', etc, if they just shamanically dream the right kind of 'magical' dream. That would just set them up for feeling like failures when and as 'the world' goes down 'the tube' as it is currently 'slated' to do,. "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law [of karma], till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5)

[Lou Gold]

So, let me ask: If, as an Idealist, you were planting a different dream in a child, what would it be?

Please respond as if talking to that child rather than (for example) saying that you'd send the child to a Waldorf School. How would you express the dreaming seed to the child? What vision would you plant?

One 'dream; I wouldn't 'plant' is the idea that they can turn things (the course of events@large) around and 'heal' 'the world', etc, if they just shamanically dream the right kind of 'magical' dream. That would just set them up for feeling like failures when and as 'the world' goes down 'the tube' as it is currently 'slated' to do,. "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law [of karma], till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5)

Your very typical strawman again. No one is suggesting magic fairy dust.

Would you plant the idea that one can live in ways more sustainable for self and others? Would you encourage children to dream of doing so?

'Heal' does NOT mean 'cure'. It means having a conscious dance more aligned with reality, such as having a good birth AND a good death, which does not mean vanquishing the trials and tribulations of these passages. 'Healing' seeks more balance, health and wholeness in a process and not victory as in a war. As the Preacher says, "There's season for all under Heaven. Turn, turn, turn."