Islam and anthroposophy

[Federica]

I still don't have a good understanding let alone perception of the ether or astral body.

In the book Esoteric Physiology, Klocek describes how he understood the process by which the human being came about. I found that part useful to understand the astral body (the etheric body is something else, not touched here). In summary, when the human being was ideated through the cooperation of various other beings of the hierarchies, a number of contributions were made to that creation, coming from different levels of the hierarchy of beings. One of those contributions was the potential to form an inner image, out of an original experience. So the new being (the human being) was equipped with the ability to experience an Imagination created by a higher being (nothing else can be content of experience) and, for the first time, form an inner image of it.


From there, the subsequent step in the ideation of the human being was to say, ok, now that it can reflect the whole Cosmos in this way, and experience it as inner images, let’s make it able to experience a small part of those images as separate from the imaginations of the Cosmos, and let's enable it to hold on to that part. So the human being in the making was enabled to go from the experience of being one with all Imaginations, reflected as inner images, to the experience of holding on to a small subset of these images and experiencing them as separate from their creator. This means that these were now beings with their own consciousness, because they would consider this subset of imaginations and see that its source, what created it, was different from them, and they - the human beings - were different from it. In other words, at this stage the human beings are one and identified with the whole Cosmos, experienced as inner reflections, but there is a subset of the reflective images that they can see as created by something that is other than them. So they have the experience of otherness, of two, and they cling to that experience.


That subset of inner pictures that the human being keeps separate and experiences as created by someone else, is a kind of bug introduced in the Cosmos. Before that, all was fluid and one, but now, there’s this little piece of “something else” that is part of the Whole, but is perceived as estranged from the Whole of creation. In a sense it’s an anomalous force within the Whole, that encloses the potential for degeneration, because it lives off of the same Ideas as anything else, that it reflects, but it internally feels separate. This disruption of unity, this bug that cuts the smoothness and continuity of cosmic Ideation, forms a “kind of funny little world”, in Klocek’s words, and this funny little world, that’s slipped out of instant recognition of the one origin, is the human soul, or astral body. It is also the space in which human personality would develop.

[coexistence]

Great discussion and enjoying and taking in things.

[Güney27]

Hello,
I have a quick question for Ashvin or Cleric, Klocek tells at the beginning of his book, in the introduction of the witness who reincarnates into people from the age of 21.
What about people (like me) who start before the age of 21 and strive for a spiritual/esoteric training?
Does it have any consequences for soul development?
Sometimes I have serious doubts about whether, at my current age, I should focus so much on my education and studies.
Is there anything I should pay particular attention to, especially as a very young person?
Kind regards

p.s
I'm almost done with klocek's book and will post something about it in the forum in the next few days

[Cleric K]

Hello,
I have a quick question for Ashvin or Cleric, Klocek tells at the beginning of his book, in the introduction of the witness who reincarnates into people from the age of 21.
What about people (like me) who start before the age of 21 and strive for a spiritual/esoteric training?
Does it have any consequences for soul development?
Sometimes I have serious doubts about whether, at my current age, I should focus so much on my education and studies.
Is there anything I should pay particular attention to, especially as a very young person?
Kind regards

p.s
I'm almost done with klocek's book and will post something about it in the forum in the next few days

Guney, at what age are you, if it's not a secret?

[Güney27]

Hello,
I have a quick question for Ashvin or Cleric, Klocek tells at the beginning of his book, in the introduction of the witness who reincarnates into people from the age of 21.
What about people (like me) who start before the age of 21 and strive for a spiritual/esoteric training?
Does it have any consequences for soul development?
Sometimes I have serious doubts about whether, at my current age, I should focus so much on my education and studies.
Is there anything I should pay particular attention to, especially as a very young person?
Kind regards

p.s
I'm almost done with klocek's book and will post something about it in the forum in the next few days

Guney, at what age are you, if it's not a secret?

Hi cleric,
I turn 19 in 2 months

[Cleric K]

Hello,
I have a quick question for Ashvin or Cleric, Klocek tells at the beginning of his book, in the introduction of the witness who reincarnates into people from the age of 21.
What about people (like me) who start before the age of 21 and strive for a spiritual/esoteric training?
Does it have any consequences for soul development?
Sometimes I have serious doubts about whether, at my current age, I should focus so much on my education and studies.
Is there anything I should pay particular attention to, especially as a very young person?
Kind regards

p.s
I'm almost done with klocek's book and will post something about it in the forum in the next few days

Guney, at what age are you, if it's not a secret?

Hi cleric,
I turn 19 in 2 months

Thanks Guney,

for some context you may take a look first at this post I've just submitted on the other thread.

Our life really unfolds layer by layer, as the rose bud unfolds petal by petal. Your soul is one such rose bud. Some things can't be forced. The petals of your upcoming education and life experiences are still covering the heart world of the rose bud. This doesn't mean in the least that you are separate from that heart world. It only means that clarity and the magnitude of that world only gradually build up. And the reason is that to understand the heart world you have to understand also more and more of the world around you and other beings. If you are to force yourself in that area you may experience some inexplicable sense of light and love but ultimately that will always remain as a wall of sensations and feelings that your thinking can't figure out.

The best thing at your stage would be to find your inner relations with the Being that enters from the Cosmos through the heart world and energizes your feeling of self on the surface. You bear responsiblity. That Being gives you your life. You can divert that life in all the wrong directions and the rose bud, instead of blossoming, will begin to close its petals. They will grow darker, thicker and impenetrable. The warm loving light springing from the Bosom of the Eternal will dim down to the cold light of the intellect that becomes fit to seek only sensual pleasures.

I say 'heart world' intentionally. The heart is only a portal. That Being can't be contained insides the space of your body. It has Cosmic proportions. My path was very different, no one could remotely tell to me things like these. But if I were to speak to my younger self, I would tell him that: "Seek the sacred premonition of the Being that is inside and outside of you. Ask it to be your firm guide. It is your friend but also a master. It is good and gentle but is also just and wise, and will lead you into pain in order to protect you from even greater evil. Be in constant contact with that Being, ask it to be with you in every step and it will be your secret inspirer for all that is good and beneficial for all."

When we come into a new incarnation there's always a 'plan maximum' for our corporeal journey. It's only a plan because we still have freedom and we can stray quite seriously from it. Then the petals darken and close. If you wish with all your heart and mind that your rose bud would blossom and make you a fully conscious being that lives in inner space of Cosmic Light but acts through the organs of a corporeal complex, you can be completely certain that this is already within the plan of your incarnation. It remains that you turn that into an ideal.

Thus I would say that you don't need to stubbornly push yourself into the exercises as if you want to simply 'see for yourself' what all this is about. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't meditate. But what will make your meditation really fruitful is nourishing the deep prayerful relations with that Being. Then in your meditations you'll feel, without any rush, how petal after petal, this Being will reveal itself as the Life Force of Wisdom and Love in the rays of which your own thoughts and sense of self exist.

Take your education seriously. Not in order to become lost in the sensory world but to take a firm foothold in it. As long as you always keep that inner contact with the Being, everything that happens - education, work, relations - will be guided in such a way that it leads you closer to your ideal.

[Güney27]

Guney, at what age are you, if it's not a secret?

Hi cleric,
I turn 19 in 2 months

Thanks Guney,

for some context you may take a look first at this post I've just submitted on the other thread.

Our life really unfolds layer by layer, as the rose bud unfolds petal by petal. Your soul is one such rose bud. Some things can't be forced. The petals of your upcoming education and life experiences are still covering the heart world of the rose bud. This doesn't mean in the least that you are separate from that heart world. It only means that clarity and the magnitude of that world only gradually build up. And the reason is that to understand the heart world you have to understand also more and more of the world around you and other beings. If you are to force yourself in that area you may experience some inexplicable sense of light and love but ultimately that will always remain as a wall of sensations and feelings that your thinking can't figure out.

The best thing at your stage would be to find your inner relations with the Being that enters from the Cosmos through the heart world and energizes your feeling of self on the surface. You bear responsiblity. That Being gives you your life. You can divert that life in all the wrong directions and the rose bud, instead of blossoming, will begin to close its petals. They will grow darker, thicker and impenetrable. The warm loving light springing from the Bosom of the Eternal will dim down to the cold light of the intellect that becomes fit to seek only sensual pleasures.

I say 'heart world' intentionally. The heart is only a portal. That Being can't be contained insides the space of your body. It has Cosmic proportions. My path was very different, no one could remotely tell to me things like these. But if I were to speak to my younger self, I would tell him that: "Seek the sacred premonition of the Being that is inside and outside of you. Ask it to be your firm guide. It is your friend but also a master. It is good and gentle but is also just and wise, and will lead you into pain in order to protect you from even greater evil. Be in constant contact with that Being, ask it to be with you in every step and it will be your secret inspirer for all that is good and beneficial for all."

When we come into a new incarnation there's always a 'plan maximum' for our corporeal journey. It's only a plan because we still have freedom and we can stray quite seriously from it. Then the petals darken and close. If you wish with all your heart and mind that your rose bud would blossom and make you a fully conscious being that lives in inner space of Cosmic Light but acts through the organs of a corporeal complex, you can be completely certain that this is already within the plan of your incarnation. It remains that you turn that into an ideal.

Thus I would say that you don't need to stubbornly push yourself into the exercises as if you want to simply 'see for yourself' what all this is about. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't meditate. But what will make your meditation really fruitful is nourishing the deep prayerful relations with that Being. Then in your meditations you'll feel, without any rush, how petal after petal, this Being will reveal itself as the Life Force of Wisdom and Love in the rays of which your own thoughts and sense of self exist.

Take your education seriously. Not in order to become lost in the sensory world but to take a firm foothold in it. As long as you always keep that inner contact with the Being, everything that happens - education, work, relations - will be guided in such a way that it leads you closer to your ideal.

cleric,
I don't know how to express my gratitude for your advice.

I have read your answer many times, your words took a lot of pressure out of my soul and now I can guess in which direction I should go further, thank you very much .


,,The best thing at your stage would be to find your inner relations with the being that enters from the Cosmos through the heart world and energizes your feeling of self on the surface. You bear responsibility. That being gives you your life. You can divert that life in all the wrong directions and the rose bud, instead of blossoming, will begin to close its petals."

I can only really guess at the extent of the semantics of this sentence, I think you are addressing the I here.


Do you mean in an adoring way that one should speak to one's prayers such as the Lord's Prayer (which Steiner appreciated and even rewrote in his own way)?

Kind regards

[Cleric K]

cleric,
I don't know how to express my gratitude for your advice.

I have read your answer many times, your words took a lot of pressure out of my soul and now I can guess in which direction I should go further, thank you very much .

I'm glad you found something of use, Guney! These things are really the very basics of a proper comprehension of reality. Only because of the extreme one-sidedness of our culture, they may seem like big news.

,,The best thing at your stage would be to find your inner relations with the being that enters from the Cosmos through the heart world and energizes your feeling of self on the surface. You bear responsibility. That being gives you your life. You can divert that life in all the wrong directions and the rose bud, instead of blossoming, will begin to close its petals."

I can only really guess at the extent of the semantics of this sentence, I think you are addressing the I here.

Yes. And of course we should remember that what we experience as a human "I", an ego, is only a loose intuition uniting our perceptions, thought and memory images. The true "I" is to be sought as the invisible Divine singularity, the sacred center of gravity around which our whole evolutionary journey integrates.

Do you mean in an adoring way that one should speak to one's prayers such as the Lord's Prayer (which Steiner appreciated and even rewrote in his own way)?

Yes, the Lord's Prayer is certainly a very powerful tool because it is built as a projection of archetypal forces. But it is important to penetrate deeper than words in our prayer. We've spoken about these things on several occasions. Our verbal prayer is part of our education as a soul. This however doesn't mean that we can say "I'm next level now, prayer is a thing of the past. I'm powerful to do on my own". The moment we think that, we're on the road to great trials. The thing is that prayer is not put to the side as a childish thing of the past. Instead, new even higher forces grow from it. Here's a hint about this.

God doesn't need our prayers. It is we who need them. The reason is that through prayer we take conscious stance towards our process of becoming. Prayer is known by Initiates as the breathing of the soul. It is easy to breathe in that which we see. This is what people do on Earth. They see someone on TV or read a book and say "I want to be like that". But that figure is already in the past. Why be like something that has already played its part in world history? It's one thing to appreciate and be inspired by the virtues and knowledge of the great human individualities but we should be clear that all these forces should be utilized to give way to a being that has so far never existed on Earth. Within and around us exists our potential Divine Being. This is what is truly worthy to be our ideal. When we breathe that Being, when we want to instill the luminous particles of that Being in our organism, when we want to weave our thoughts of its Light of Wisdom and our feelings of its Warmth of Love, then we become more and more a being that is not simply a copy of its environment, but a being whose life flows from the Sun-Heart of the Cosmos. People drink water that has been drunk and excreted so many times. Why not drink directly from the Source - water that has never been contaminated? This may sound like sentimental poetry but it is literal reality. Not very long from now human beings will begin to be clearly distinguishable. One part will be those who accept only light that enters through the senses, light that has been many times reflected and dimmed down. Such life is marked by scarcity, one always lives in fear that they may lose the little they have. This secretly kindles that default psychological state for contemporary man, where another man is seen first and foremost as a threat. The first thing they think about is whether they'll be robbed of the little dim light they have. The other part will be those who find their fully conscious stance within reality. They have learned how to breathe. They don't fear poverty because their Life is being constantly and abundantly replenished. The more they give, the more they receive from the inexhaustible Source.

Some may say "I can't pray to something I don't see." But this is really the beauty of our evolutionary journey! What would be the point if everything was already before our eyes? By praying we expand our consciousness. We stretch our rays into the vast expanses of the Cosmos. To pray is to yearn to grow into that space and weave creatively in it. There are people who pray but do so under their nose. They mumble some words but in the back of their mind they think "I don't believe this does anything, yet I'll do it anyway, just in case". Yet we can actually feel when it does something. When we pray our words shouldn't remain under our nose. They must be felt to fly away like doves set free. As long as we fear to let the dove free, we're secretly keeping a boundary around our consciousness. We practically say "there's no need to let that dove go because there's nothing there. It will be a waste." But the more we let them go, the further they fly and the more our soul expands. Then we find our soul to be one and the same with Cosmic space. Then we are much more clear about how prayer is the Divine technique through which we attract the forces and materials that can make of us a responsible human being that works for an enterprise that dwarfs even the greatest achievements of humankind. The work that we partake into has in mind not only humans but all kingdoms, the planets and the stars.

[Güney27]

cleric,
I don't know how to express my gratitude for your advice.

I have read your answer many times, your words took a lot of pressure out of my soul and now I can guess in which direction I should go further, thank you very much .

I'm glad you found something of use, Guney! These things are really the very basics of a proper comprehension of reality. Only because of the extreme one-sidedness of our culture, they may seem like big news.

,,The best thing at your stage would be to find your inner relations with the being that enters from the Cosmos through the heart world and energizes your feeling of self on the surface. You bear responsibility. That being gives you your life. You can divert that life in all the wrong directions and the rose bud, instead of blossoming, will begin to close its petals."

I can only really guess at the extent of the semantics of this sentence, I think you are addressing the I here.

Yes. And of course we should remember that what we experience as a human "I", an ego, is only a loose intuition uniting our perceptions, thought and memory images. The true "I" is to be sought as the invisible Divine singularity, the sacred center of gravity around which our whole evolutionary journey integrates.

Do you mean in an adoring way that one should speak to one's prayers such as the Lord's Prayer (which Steiner appreciated and even rewrote in his own way)?

Yes, the Lord's Prayer is certainly a very powerful tool because it is built as a projection of archetypal forces. But it is important to penetrate deeper than words in our prayer. We've spoken about these things on several occasions. Our verbal prayer is part of our education as a soul. This however doesn't mean that we can say "I'm next level now, prayer is a thing of the past. I'm powerful to do on my own". The moment we think that, we're on the road to great trials. The thing is that prayer is not put to the side as a childish thing of the past. Instead, new even higher forces grow from it. Here's a hint about this.

God doesn't need our prayers. It is we who need them. The reason is that through prayer we take conscious stance towards our process of becoming. Prayer is known by Initiates as the breathing of the soul. It is easy to breathe in that which we see. This is what people do on Earth. They see someone on TV or read a book and say "I want to be like that". But that figure is already in the past. Why be like something that has already played its part in world history? It's one thing to appreciate and be inspired by the virtues and knowledge of the great human individualities but we should be clear that all these forces should be utilized to give way to a being that has so far never existed on Earth. Within and around us exists our potential Divine Being. This is what is truly worthy to be our ideal. When we breathe that Being, when we want to instill the luminous particles of that Being in our organism, when we want to weave our thoughts of its Light of Wisdom and our feelings of its Warmth of Love, then we become more and more a being that is not simply a copy of its environment, but a being whose life flows from the Sun-Heart of the Cosmos. People drink water that has been drunk and excreted so many times. Why not drink directly from the Source - water that has never been contaminated? This may sound like sentimental poetry but it is literal reality. Not very long from now human beings will begin to be clearly distinguishable. One part will be those who accept only light that enters through the senses, light that has been many times reflected and dimmed down. Such life is marked by scarcity, one always lives in fear that they may lose the little they have. This secretly kindles that default psychological state for contemporary man, where another man is seen first and foremost as a threat. The first thing they think about is whether they'll be robbed of the little dim light they have. The other part will be those who find their fully conscious stance within reality. They have learned how to breathe. They don't fear poverty because their Life is being constantly and abundantly replenished. The more they give, the more they receive from the inexhaustible Source.

Some may say "I can't pray to something I don't see." But this is really the beauty of our evolutionary journey! What would be the point if everything was already before our eyes? By praying we expand our consciousness. We stretch our rays into the vast expanses of the Cosmos. To pray is to yearn to grow into that space and weave creatively in it. There are people who pray but do so under their nose. They mumble some words but in the back of their mind they think "I don't believe this does anything, yet I'll do it anyway, just in case". Yet we can actually feel when it does something. When we pray our words shouldn't remain under our nose. They must be felt to fly away like doves set free. As long as we fear to let the dove free, we're secretly keeping a boundary around our consciousness. We practically say "there's no need to let that dove go because there's nothing there. It will be a waste." But the more we let them go, the further they fly and the more our soul expands. Then we find our soul to be one and the same with Cosmic space. Then we are much more clear about how prayer is the Divine technique through which we attract the forces and materials that can make of us a responsible human being that works for an enterprise that dwarfs even the greatest achievements of humankind. The work that we partake into has in mind not only humans but all kingdoms, the planets and the stars.

Cleric,
Thank you for taking the time to continue helping us on our way.
Again, I read your answer several times to be able to grasp what you said.
So through prayer we imitate the divine rather than secular things that come to us through the sensual world?
The prayers were given to us by great people like Zarahtrusta or Jesus(who is more like a god incarnated than a seer?), who come from the spiritual world and help us on our way to development?

Why is it that nowadays many people see prayer as a concentration exercise (i.e. as a mantra)?

,,When we pray our words shouldn't remain under our nose. They must be felt to fly away like doves set free. As long as we fear to let the dove free, we're secretly keeping a boundary around our consciousness. We practically say "there's no need to let that dove go because there's nothing there. It will be a waste." But the more we let them go, the further they fly and the more our soul expands. Then we find our soul to be one and the same with Cosmic space"

During a prayer, would it help if I could visually imagine how my words would "fly away"?


"Through Christianity, the emotional life of people was led up to Kama-Manas. Through Mohammedanism, the mind, the spirit, was led down from spiritual life to the abstract understanding of purely physical laws." (GA 92)


Would Islamic prayers then cause the opposite of Christian prayers?
As I have understood from reading Steiner up to the present point, Christianity is a bit opposite to Islam,
because it contains Luciferic (Mohammed's idea of ​​paradise) and Ahrimanic elements.
Ahriman-Christus-Luzifer

(I have to say again that I don't have a particularly good understanding of these things. I've only recently started to look into these things more intensively)

Kind regards

[Cleric K]

Cleric,
Thank you for taking the time to continue helping us on our way.
Again, I read your answer several times to be able to grasp what you said.
So through prayer we imitate the divine rather than secular things that come to us through the sensual world?
The prayers were given to us by great people like Zarahtrusta or Jesus(who is more like a god incarnated than a seer?), who come from the spiritual world and help us on our way to development?

There are different levels of prayer. For example, if someone is prescribed physiotherapy, they repeat the exercises that the instructor gives them, even if they understand nothing of anatomy and the idea behind their design. Yet they still benefit. In a similar way, a pious person, even though repeating the words without deeper understanding, still benefits because the words set in motion certain currents of the soul. Then there's a higher level of prayer where the person tries to experience the words pictorially and with great intensity. You can try this with Lord's prayer, for example. You can take it verse by verse and stop for a while at each one. Don't jump into philosophizing too much. Just try to imagine pictorially, as if you have to draw a painting for each verse. The goal is not so much to have vivid colors of the picture but simply to think about its contents. This exercise engages the imagination quite a lot. It's easy to imagine landscapes and objects but how would you paint a picture of Goodness or Gratitude, or Blessing? Or you can try to express that in a whole body movement, dance the picture. Through what gestures would you express these soul realities? In the spirit of the conversations in the other thread, such exercises help us distinguish the picture - the physiognomy - from the soul forces. It also develops the forces through which you will later express higher intuition into pictures and metaphors.

Even though we're not fully conscious of the way these exercises work on our soul, they already have organizing powers. Our ordinary self lives in intuition of color, sound, taste, smell, pain, pleasure and all that intellectual thoughts we have about their metamorphoses. This is the language of our intellect. Our soul lives in higher order language. Things like Kingdom, Earth, Heaven and so on, are very concrete strata of experience, just like while in the body, the sensations in our feet and the thoughts in our head are concrete experiences. There are so many aspects to prayer.

Why is it that nowadays many people see prayer as a concentration exercise (i.e. as a mantra)?

Because of the implicit intellectual pride of our age. Today people say "Of course, we today don't believe in divinities, we know it is all energy in various forms. The ancients worshipped these energies. Today, as a kind of tribute to that ancient heritage, we also say these old prayers but of course, we take them to a new level and see them only as a tool to quiet down the mind."

,,When we pray our words shouldn't remain under our nose. They must be felt to fly away like doves set free. As long as we fear to let the dove free, we're secretly keeping a boundary around our consciousness. We practically say "there's no need to let that dove go because there's nothing there. It will be a waste." But the more we let them go, the further they fly and the more our soul expands. Then we find our soul to be one and the same with Cosmic space"

During a prayer, would it help if I could visually imagine how my words would "fly away"?

Yes. Of course, not simply in a mechanical sense. It's very beneficial to imagine the words as seeds that quietly sink in the depths of your soul. There, beneath the threshold of consciousness, these seeds are nourished by Divine Warmth, Light and Love from one side, and by your devotion from the other. Slowly but surely, these seeds grow and become fully conscious soul faculties, through which you live in the higher order strata of reality.

"Through Christianity, the emotional life of people was led up to Kama-Manas. Through Mohammedanism, the mind, the spirit, was led down from spiritual life to the abstract understanding of purely physical laws." (GA 92)


Would Islamic prayers then cause the opposite of Christian prayers?
As I have understood from reading Steiner up to the present point, Christianity is a bit opposite to Islam,
because it contains Luciferic (Mohammed's idea of ​​paradise) and Ahrimanic elements.
Ahriman-Christus-Luzifer

As explained above, today we should be already at a level where we understand the meaning of our prayers. We should be able to live through them pictorially. It's not a question to simply oppose Islam and Christianity. You need to gradually form an Ideal about the direction you would like to see human evolution going. If one prays that their life goes relatively smoothly, being relatively good, so that they can take their place in Paradise after death, it's all the same if they call themselves a Muslim or a Christian. If you pray that your thoughts, feelings and actions may become conductors of the Divine Life here on Earth, then you'll also have the means to distinguish which teachings and methods lead in that direction. But it all depends on what your high ideal is.