Cell Intelligence in Physiological & Morphological Spaces

[Federica]

Federica,

Right now, I think that my enthusiasm and knowledge in relation to natural science and technology is woefully underdeveloped. I don’t understand nearly as much as I should in relation to these topics, for example I couldn’t even tell you all the different components that go into the functioning of a living cell. I know that these greater detailed insights into the phenomenal world will develop with time, so I am in no extreme rush to get it done, but I also know that part of the spiritual evolutionary path will definitely involve attaining that intimate familiarity and eventually, perhaps in the next lifetime, taking on redemptive responsibilities in relation to them that I can scarcely imagine right now. All of these future tasks are becoming more concrete for me and so I don’t think of them as vague possibilities or speculations, but realities that I need to begin seriously probing with my thinking activity in preparation. When Steiner wrote about making the World content into our own thought content – or when Christian theology speaks of being responsible for the ‘sins of the World’ - I am beginning to realize we should take this in the most literal way. It is fear of the unknown and unfamiliar that is Ahr’s greatest weapon against the Spirit, so we need to meet the World developments with great courage and penetrating insight, the kind that only comes from being compassionately and enthusiastically interested in the living details.

Ashvin,

Ok, then it’s the painful awareness of that underdeveloped enthusiasm that I must have felt

More seriously, the French have a saying: "to go faster than the music". You and Cleric often speak of symphonic harmony, musical attunement, and use tuning forks metaphors. The music of the spheres is the highest unifying organizing principle of the above and the below. So with this in mind there could certainly be a disharmony in the pace at which the side of development in thought is pursued, versus the side of development in the mineral sphere.

My impression is that such eagerness, as you describe and have demonstrated before, could be a case of playing too hard on the material aspects, hence the risk of accentuating disharmony in the full spectrum of morphic spaces. Not with respect to your particular case of course, but we have to look at the general level of development of living thinking today, not your own. It seems to me that thinking is currently so underdeveloped in comparison the the Ahrimanic push for us to unconsciously hack the life forces from the bottom up, that we should probably calm down the technological excitement and rather work on things from the other end, that of thinking, which is so much more in need of enhancement. How do you make sure that your thought of woefully underdeveloped science and tech knowledge does not come from personal preference?

Is it not screamingly evident that there is one side of things in much greater need of enhancement than the other?

(please don't reply that they can't be separated, or quote the CEO metaphor After all, you haven't said that in your next life you want to become a teacher, or an evangelist of living thinking, but a technology insider with redeeming purposes, so you have 'chosen' one side.)
.

[AshvinP]

Federica,

Right now, I think that my enthusiasm and knowledge in relation to natural science and technology is woefully underdeveloped. I don’t understand nearly as much as I should in relation to these topics, for example I couldn’t even tell you all the different components that go into the functioning of a living cell. I know that these greater detailed insights into the phenomenal world will develop with time, so I am in no extreme rush to get it done, but I also know that part of the spiritual evolutionary path will definitely involve attaining that intimate familiarity and eventually, perhaps in the next lifetime, taking on redemptive responsibilities in relation to them that I can scarcely imagine right now. All of these future tasks are becoming more concrete for me and so I don’t think of them as vague possibilities or speculations, but realities that I need to begin seriously probing with my thinking activity in preparation. When Steiner wrote about making the World content into our own thought content – or when Christian theology speaks of being responsible for the ‘sins of the World’ - I am beginning to realize we should take this in the most literal way. It is fear of the unknown and unfamiliar that is Ahr’s greatest weapon against the Spirit, so we need to meet the World developments with great courage and penetrating insight, the kind that only comes from being compassionately and enthusiastically interested in the living details.

Ashvin,

Ok, then it’s the painful awareness of that underdeveloped enthusiasm that I must have felt

More seriously, the French have a saying: "to go faster than the music". You and Cleric often speak of symphonic harmony, musical attunement, and use tuning forks metaphors. The music of the spheres is the highest unifying organizing principle of the above and the below. So with this in mind there could certainly be a disharmony in the pace at which the side of development in thought is pursued, versus the side of development in the mineral sphere.

My impression is that such eagerness, as you describe and have demonstrated before, could be a case of playing too hard on the material aspects, hence the risk of accentuating disharmony in the full spectrum of morphic spaces. Not with respect to your particular case of course, but we have to look at the general level of development of living thinking today, not your own. It seems to me that thinking is currently so underdeveloped in comparison the the Ahrimanic push for us to unconsciously hack the life forces from the bottom up, that we should probably calm down the technological excitement and rather work on things from the other end, that of thinking, which is so much more in need of enhancement. How do you make sure that your thought of woefully underdeveloped science and tech knowledge does not come from personal preference?

Is it not screamingly evident that there is one side of things in much greater need of enhancement than the other?

(please don't reply that they can't be separated, or quote the CEO metaphor After all, you haven't said that in your next life you want to become a teacher, or an evangelist of living thinking, but a technology insider with redeeming purposes, so you have 'chosen' one side.)
.

Federica,

Most of the terminology we are using here in this context, like etheric forces, life forces, vertical gradient, full depth harmonization, and so forth, would be meaningless to the average person today. So clearly it wouldn't make sense to go around discussing such things people who have not already studied PoF and also some spiritual science, at least in the format that it has been presented here through Cleric’s posts and essays. This essay on morphic spaces would sound like complete nonsense to the average person. But clearly, we here on the forum have contemplated it somewhat deeply and discussed it with each other and Anthony was probing its ideas in that context.

I find that often we invoke the hypothetical “average person” as another way of adopting the 3rd person perspective and avoiding the engagement of certain realities, which are unfolding whether we like it or not, at our current state of development. I know from personal experience how easy it is to get comfortable at a certain stage and keep repeating the same steps, telling myself it is the cautious and responsible approach (and it certainly may be for a while), but then realizing it is also bound up with the sense of fear and anxiety of extending my spiritual activity in an uncomfortable way and into unfamiliar directions.

That doesn’t mean every person needs to explore this same topic if they prefer to explore another avenue, but I think it is clear from posts such as Cleric’s on this thread (including those yet to come on the full paper), that there is an inestimable value in probing such things to acquire an intuitive orientation to spiritual reality. In fact, I find little else that is capable of directly stimulating my higher faculties in this way. By exploring spiritual principles through technological realities as analogies, we are also coming to understand the Cosmic organism as a whole, because all the higher forces are also implicated in these modern manifestations. So it is not a question of IF they are implicated, but how they are implicated.

Of course, we also find that in Steiner as well - let’s remember he lectured extensively on the natural science and technology of his time, in excruciating or enjoyable detail (depending on how we look at it), and that’s why we can say his work is truly the Aristotelian stream of the 20th century (in contrast to the Platonic stream). Exploring such topics in the 'mineral sphere' deeply with our spiritual activity is not other than enhancing the thinking side of things. After all, we are in the mineral kingdom life round of evolution and that is precisely our overarching human task - the Spirit only becomes conscious of itself through our creative work within the mineral sphere.

PS - I didn't say anything about "wanting" to become something or another in the next life, other than wanting to serve the redemptive purposes of God's kingdom, which will obviously involve interaction with technology (as it does in my current life), but I have no idea how and trust the Spirit will lead me to the proper place.

[Federica]

And if yes, isn’t it contradictory to say at the same time “I’m really looking forward to more simulations” and “cell regeneration should not happen by manipulating cells through technology?

Well, in a sense - yes, it is contradictory. To be sure, such simulations are in no way needed for the spiritual progress of humanity. And you are right that it is contradictory to look forward for something that may serve as a 'gateway drug' for regenerative technology. The reason I say this is because attempts in these simulations will be made anyway (we can't convince scientists to abandon that route) so in that sense I'm simply looking forward to see if the results will confirm my intuitions. It's not that I'm looking forward for this because it is an indispensable milestone towards the Spirit.

I think it is clear from posts such as Cleric’s on this thread (including those yet to come on the full paper), that there is an inestimable value in probing such things to acquire an intuitive orientation to spiritual reality. In fact, I find little else that is capable of directly stimulating my higher faculties in this way.

Cleric, Ashvin,

I see some specular statements in your last replies, hence this joint reply. Just a short note first: Cleric, I did get the use of “danger” as you intended it. The other possible meaning (that the simulation would not lead to hard trials) didn’t even occur to me, because it's unrealistic, simulations will lead to real regeneration of cells. Now, I would like to get something clarified and out of the way first, especially for Ashvin, who insists with this every time technology is discussed. You say:


- We can’t stop those simulations anyway - (Cleric)

- We shouldn’t avoid the engagement of certain realities, which are unfolding whether we like it or not - (Ashvin)


Yes, I agree with that. It is a necessary and inevitable development, just as materialism has been, and is. I don’t suggest that we should remain ignorant, avoidant and fearful of new technology. So I hear and agree with a view such as this:

It would be a false conclusion to avoid the science of the day; that is the very falsest conclusion which could be drawn. We must get to know science; we should get an exact knowledge of all that comes from this direction — but with the full consciousness that we are receiving an illusory aspect, an illusion necessary for our education as men. We do not safeguard ourselves against Ahriman by avoiding modern science, but by learning to know its character. For modern science gives us an external illusion of the universe, and we need this illusion. Do not imagine that we do not need it. We must only fill it in from quite another side with actual reality gained through spiritual research, we must rise from the illusory character to the true reality. You will find reference in many of my lecture-courses to what I am telling you today, and you will see how everywhere it has been sought to enter fully into the science of our time, but to lift it all to the sphere where one can see its real value. You cannot wish to get rid of the rainbow because you know it to be an illusion of light and color! You will not understand it if you do not realize its illusory character. But it is just the same with all that modern science gives you for your imagination of the universe, it gives only illusions and that must be recognized. It is by educating oneself through these illusions that one arrives at the reality.

Now, as I see it, the question is: when one really looks forwards to these simulations so as to validate one’s intuitions (Cleric), when one identifies engagement in the simulations with the means by which one is overcoming fear of the unknown, and taking responsibility for healing (Ashvin), is one truly building up the resistance to Ahriman that humanity desperately needs to build up now? Or is one being carried away by fascination? As Steiner said with reference to the imminent material incarnation of Ahriman:

A great part of mankind today is already under the control, from one side or another, of Ahrimanic forces of a cosmic nature which are growing stronger and stronger. … Ahrimanic powers prepare the evolution of mankind in such a way that it can fall prey to Ahriman when he appears in human form within Western civilization.
It is of no avail to give oneself illusions today about these things. Ahriman will appear in human form and the only question is, how he will find humanity prepared. Will his preparations have secured for him as followers the whole of mankind that today calls itself civilized, or will he find a humanity that can offer resistance.

Not to be philistine, please know that I am keeping a balanced - dispassioned, as Ashvin would say - view of Ahriman. Ahriman is necessary on the way to freedom, as Scaligero reminded us “ in the sphere of Ahriman, man finally becomes independent from Lucifer”. Nonetheless one can wonder, with respect to intentions such as:


- I really look forward to more simulations. I deem them immoral tasks (regeneration should not happen by manipulating cells' contents through technology) but I simply mean that, because they can’t be stopped, I want to see if my intuitions are spot-on - (Cleric)

- I find little else capable of stimulating my higher faculties so I want to know if we can 3D-print liver cells to have standard doctors to heal people who lack funding - (Ashvin)


Do they contribute to the necessary resistance Steiner speaks of? Or do these intentions work as coadjuvants, as promoting agents of the enormously preponderant Ahrimanic impulse of these days? Clearly, the least thing we want to provide the Ahrimanic impulse with nowadays is…. sympathetic intentions. One can wonder if it’s useful to sacrifice the necessary resistance, letting it be preempted by the need to validate, or stimulate, one’s faculties.

Cleric: As such, your statement seems quite anti-Cleric to me. You teach us that, regardless of how much something can be stopped on the physical plane, how we think about it plays a crucial role. Maybe there is a way in which this intention constitutes the mentioned necessary resistance to Ahriman, but if so, I can’t see how?

Ashvin: Beyond that fact that your statement is not very nice towards the elemental beings that you were able to perceive in the air - one could think of those beings as maybe also a valuable stimulation of higher faculties? - I want to ask, well, just because you can’t find stimulation does that mean that it’s fine to let yourself fantasize about fascinating scenarios of 3D printed liver cells to heal the poor and brave the unknown? Where is the resistance to Ahrimanic overwhelming powers in this thoughts?

The only right view — according to spiritual science — is to realize that all that is accepted by way of mere world-mathematics, mere world-schematism of a mechanical order, does not furnish man with absolute truth about the universe, but with illusions. The illusions are necessary because mankind goes through varied forms of education in its different stages of evolution. For modern education we need these illusions of a mathematical nature about the universe, we must acquire them, but we must know that they are illusions. And most of all, they are illusions when we transpose them into our daily environment, when, in accordance with the atomic or molecular theories, we even endeavor to create a kind of astronomy for the substances of the earth. A right attitude in regard to the whole of modern science, insofar as it thinks along these lines, will recognize that its knowledge is illusion.
Now, in order that his incarnation may take the most profitable form, it is of the utmost interest to Ahriman that people should perfect themselves in all our illusory modern science, but without knowing that it is illusion. Ahriman has the greatest possible interest in instructing men in mathematics, but not in instructing them that mathematical-mechanistic concepts of the universe are merely illusions. … To conceal from mankind that in modern intellectual, rationalistic science with its supplement of a superstitious empiricism, one is dealing with a great illusion, a deception — that men should not recognize this is of the greatest possible interest to Ahriman. He would have the greatest success if he could then come as a human being into Western civilization and find the scientific superstition.

Post scriptum to Ashvin


“Exploring such topics in the 'mineral sphere' deeply with our spiritual activity is not other than enhancing the thinking side of things.”

No, not necessarily. It depends entirely on how we do that. Exploration in itself can lead to opposite results, only the how would tell, if we are really enhancing the thinking side of things.


“It is fear of the unknown and unfamiliar that is Ahr’s greatest weapon against the Spirit”

Is it? This is not how Steiner puts it. Ahriman’s weapons are: 1. To induce humanity to fall into scientific superstition. 2. To create disharmony among groups of people, and to make them fight against each other.


“I think it is clear from posts such as Cleric’s on this thread (including those yet to come on the full paper), that there is an inestimable value in probing such things to acquire an intuitive orientation to spiritual reality.”

Come on, Ashvin, nothing can be clear from posts yet to come. Again, you are letting yourself be carried away…

[AshvinP]

“I think it is clear from posts such as Cleric’s on this thread (including those yet to come on the full paper), that there is an inestimable value in probing such things to acquire an intuitive orientation to spiritual reality.”

Come on, Ashvin, nothing can be clear from posts yet to come. Again, you are letting yourself be carried away…

Federica,

So far the technical metaphors bat 100% in stimulating my intuition of spiritual reality, so I think it's pretty clear that investigating them further will continue to do so. And the reason why has been discussed before in several contexts. We only need to realize that the Spirit evolves in an intentional way to provide itself with its own tools for its continued development at the proper times. As I have said before, that doesn't mean it is the only tool (there are obviously many others), and anyone is free to ignore these posts and focus on another one, but in that case, they don't need to also police the situation for everyone else.

As a preliminary matter, I think we should be clear about the progression of comments. Anthony noticed scientific research that seemed to contradict an assertion about cells made by Cleric in his morphic spaces essay, which we have all previously read and agreed was a fantastic technical yet imaginative way to probe the depths of spiritual reality. Cleric responded to that question and tried to elucidate the principled reasons why there was no contradiction as of yet and why scientific research that is being carried out in these fields can also sharpen our insights into spiritual reality if we pay attention to the developments and think through them. I also joined to ask a question and make an observation regarding those principles.

At this point, no one has mentioned anything about going to work at designing simulations of living cells for medical uses, about raising funds to support their research, about hoping they continue to merely satisfy our curiosity, about printing cells to have ‘standard doctors’ heal people, about working on ‘their side’ in a subsequent lifetime, or anything similar. None of that was argued in subsequent comments either, as far as I can tell. No one is denying that there are extreme negative moral implications to the research if it is carried out with selfish, naive, or outright ignorant intentions, as with all natural scientific research and all activities in general. And no one has suggested such research should continue, only that it very likely will. What was suggested is that spiritual evolution can’t happen if the research continues, as it very likely will, and no one else simultaneously pays attention to what’s happening and penetrates it with insight to elevate their cognitive development and work towards the future redemption of its consequences. That is simply the way spiritual evolution must unfold.

So I want to ask you, do you think exploring modern scientific research in these fields with our spiritually oriented thinking can strengthen and enliven that spiritual activity in a way that is necessary for redemptive purposes?

On a slightly different note, I wonder whether you think the Ahrimanic forces would like it better if the next few pages of this thread were devoted to people thinking vigorously and dispassionately through the living realities that are unfolding around them, or if those pages were directed to spiritual seekers questioning each other about seemingly internal contradictory phraseology and their “sympathetic intentions” for his impulse? All too often we conceptually establish what the adversarial forces are working towards but fail to notice how we are playing right into those intentions under the pretense of making sure others don't.

[Federica]

So I want to ask you, do you think exploring modern scientific research in these fields with our spiritually oriented thinking can strengthen and enliven that spiritual activity in a way that is necessary for redemptive purposes?

On a slightly different note, I wonder whether you think the Ahrimanic forces would like it better if the next few pages of this thread were devoted to people thinking vigorously and dispassionately through the living realities that are unfolding around them, or if those pages were directed to spiritual seekers questioning each other about seemingly internal contradictory phraseology and their “sympathetic intentions” for his impulse? All too often we conceptually establish what the adversarial forces are working towards but fail to notice how we are playing right into those intentions under the pretense of making sure others don't.

Ashvin,
To your first question: the explicit answer is contained in my previous post.
To your second: no, my post has neither the content nor the form of an Ahrimanic attack (which you obviously have no doubt about, you only couldn't resist being rhetorical) and yes, I do try to pay attention to how the adversarial forces play out in me, and I did it here too. Although I'm vulnerable to all, I think I'm more vulnerable to Luciferic forces (which you also know, but this time it just didn't fit your rhetorical intention). BTW, how to read the fact that you omit to take my real questions seriously, and provide no positive answer? Would you please address my main question: how do you intend the forming of specific resistance to the Ahrimanic incredibly powerful momentum?

[Cleric K]

Cleric: As such, your statement seems quite anti-Cleric to me. You teach us that, regardless of how much something can be stopped on the physical plane, how we think about it plays a crucial role. Maybe there is a way in which this intention constitutes the mentioned necessary resistance to Ahriman, but if so, I can’t see how?

Federica, please note that in this discussion we're not simply being fascinated by the advances in simulations. Actually, the whole focus is on where simulations would potentially fall short and even more importantly - what to make out of this fact. Because we shouldn't be deluded that failures in simulations matching observations, will in themselves motivate scientists to seek the Spirit. Much more likely they'll simply continue to refine the models and believe that in this way they are getting closer to truth.

The resistance we're building here is rooted in the very fact that we're looking for the proper ways to relate to these facts. It's quite obvious how powerful materialistic superstition is in our age. Every few weeks we see some headline of the sort "Do we live in a simulation?" That's how disconnected thinking is from its own experience. Or rather, how prejudiced thinking is when it dismisses its own living experience as inconsequential and focuses only on the meaning of its abstract thoughts about the hypothetical model of the world (simulation, particles, fields, etc.)

The facts of future scientific discoveries won't in themselves kindle the seeking for spiritual depth. But we can understand these discoveries as manifestations of that depth and this understanding is the only thing that can resist the Ahr spirit. We fall victims to that spirit when we stop short in the deepening of our thinking process and instead build an abstract mental picture that we believe represents reality.

The contents of this thread seem quite abstract at first too but all attempts are made to show how these concepts (such as morphic spaces, etc.) can be used as immediate expressions for our deepened and delaminated inner experience. And this is really all there is to it. We fall victims if we are simply mesmerized by the output of simulations but we find resistance when we understand how these results fit in the expanded experience of reality. And we must know how to fit such results because they will keep coming, just like in few weeks we'll see another headline "Do we live in a simulation?" We need to understand in details how these results come about and why people like to be mesmerized by them. To 'look forward' to such results can be taken as a test to see if our resistance is really worthwhile. Here maybe 'resistance' is not the best word because it reminds me too much of the strength not to be moved by something which can be potentially seducing. This is exemplified in fanatically religious persons who believe that by squeezing the bible and denying everything that is discovered in the world, they affirm their faith. I remember part of a documentary where they asked a person: if the world was created 8000 years ago, why do we find dinosaur bones in the ground? The answer was that God had put them there to test people's faith Now this is not the resistance we're talking about. Instead, we must understand why the bones are there (literally and in the symbolic sense). Only we shouldn't be satisfied with an abstract narrative of geological and biological evolution but seek the living beings in our inner spaces. We 'resist' in the proper sense when nothing stops us from finding the place of every little fact of experience within the ever expanding panorama of existence.

[AshvinP]

So I want to ask you, do you think exploring modern scientific research in these fields with our spiritually oriented thinking can strengthen and enliven that spiritual activity in a way that is necessary for redemptive purposes?

On a slightly different note, I wonder whether you think the Ahrimanic forces would like it better if the next few pages of this thread were devoted to people thinking vigorously and dispassionately through the living realities that are unfolding around them, or if those pages were directed to spiritual seekers questioning each other about seemingly internal contradictory phraseology and their “sympathetic intentions” for his impulse? All too often we conceptually establish what the adversarial forces are working towards but fail to notice how we are playing right into those intentions under the pretense of making sure others don't.

Ashvin,
To your first question: the explicit answer is contained in my previous post.
To your second: no, my post has neither the content nor the form of an Ahrimanic attack (which you obviously have no doubt about, you only couldn't resist being rhetorical) and yes, I do try to pay attention to how the adversarial forces play out in me, and I did it here too. Although I'm vulnerable to all, I think I'm more vulnerable to Luciferic forces (which you also know, but this time it just didn't fit your rhetorical intention). BTW, how to read the fact that you omit to take my real questions seriously, and provide no positive answer? Would you please address my main question: how do you intend the forming of specific resistance to the Ahrimanic incredibly powerful momentum?

Federica,

On the topics you prefer, you are excellent at rigorously and dispassionately thinking through them, but on the topics you don't prefer, namely anything to do with modern technology and "transhumanist" research in some form or another - meaning the elongation of human psycho-physical qualities pr capacities by some scientific means - you are prone to start ignoring the substance of the ideas being explored and start attacking the character, intentions, methods, underlying feelings, and so forth of the people exploring the ideas (even if they are exploring for altogether spiritual purposes). That has happened many times in recent forum history and it’s a bit surprising to me that you don’t notice it. On the thread where we started discussing Linnell, you simply ignored the relevant Steiner quotes and never responded to them. Now the pattern has picked back up on this thread.

It’s not about the content of one post or another, but what actually results from certain patterns of thinking and feeling. I have tried to answer your main questions about resistance across all of these threads but again the substance of my responses is ignored and the questions are simply repeated later at the next opportunity, which is why I feel the underlying patterns need to be addressed. As we know, it is on the esoteric path that we must lean into the Lucifer impulse to develop higher cognition. But if we fail to balance that impulse, then Lucifer 'delivers us up' to Ahriman. That is the great danger of the spiritual path and somewhat ironically, or “polarically”, it is avoided by taking an enthusiastic and loving interest in every little detail of the so-called realm of ‘Maya’. That is the heart of the redemptive Christ impulse - the path towards moral perfection that can only be accomplished within the Earthly physical context.

I came across an interesting and relevant Steiner quote last night.

In what we perceive, we really only receive one-fourth of that which assails us; the other three-fourths penetrate into us without our being aware of them. When we perceive colour, there presses into us, as it were, below the surface of the sensation of colour, — creative Imagination, Inspiration and Intuition; these sink into us. When we investigate more closely into that which thus enters into us, we find that if Imagination, Inspiration, and Intuition were really to enter our organism as they wish to do through sense perception, the result would be, that even during the period of our physical earthly existence between birth and death, they would bring about the same spiritual effect as I mentioned yesterday as a possible result of the temptation of Lucifer. This Imagination, Inspiration, and Intuition would so act upon us that we should have the impulse to cast behind us every possibility that exists for our becoming the Ideal Man in the far-distant future, and we should want to spiritualise ourselves as we are now; we should want to become spiritual beings at the stage of perfection we have now reached through our previous life. In a certain sense we should say to ourselves: ‘It will be too great an effort for us to become man, for to reach this goal we should have to tread a difficult path in the future. We shall forego the possibilities yet lying in man, we prefer to become angels with all our imperfections, for then we can rise at once into the spiritual world, we can then spiritualise our being; we shall however, be less perfect than we might be in the cosmos, in view of our possibilities, but still we shall be spiritual, angelic beings.’
…
From this you may see what a great deal really takes place in the inner part of human nature, and the result in us of the battle which takes place there is what I have described as a sort of corpse, a partial corpse. This corpse is the expression of that which has to become entirely material in us, it is like a mineral deposit, which we are unable to spiritualise. If this corpse were not formed through the war between Lucifer and his opponents we should have, instead of this corpse, the result of Imagination, Inspiration and Intuition within us and we should rise at once into the spiritual world. The corpse forms the dead weight by which the good Spiritual Beings — the opponents of Lucifer — detain us at first in the physical world, detain us in it so that because of this veiling we should strive towards the true ideal of human nature and the fulfilment of all the possibilities that may be ours.
…
This treasure of thought arises through thoughts being reflected, as it were, in our etheric body in the way described, but in this case, in ‘time’, they are reflected back as far as to the point of time to which our memory extends in physical life. Memory is rejected thoughts, thoughts reflected in time. But deep down in our etheric body, behind memory, work the good divine Spiritual Beings to whom Ahriman is opposed and there they create, they construct the forces which are able to reanimate what has died in the physical body as the result of the above-described process. Thus whereas in our physical body a corpse is produced (a corpse which has to be produced, because otherwise we should have the impulse to spiritualise ourselves with all the imperfections we possess), something like an invigorating vital force proceeds from the etheric body, so that in the future that which has been killed can once more be regenerated.

We now see for the first time the significance of ‘before’ and ‘afterwards’. If in the immediate present we were fully to experience the Intuitions, Inspirations, etc., which enter into us, we should spiritualise ourselves, but through their being thrown into the future by Ahriman, through their not being used now, but being preserved as germs for the future, they attain at last to their true nature. That which we should misuse at the present time we shall employ in the future, when we have passed the portal of death, to shape a new life for ourselves from out the spiritual world. That which — if we were to use it in the physical world — would lead us to spiritualise ourselves with all our imperfections is the force that leads us after death to apply ourselves again to physical earthly life. In such opposite directions do things work in different worlds!

The resistance comes in experiencing the realities that are expressed above i.e. in really sensing inwardly the battles that are being waged within our souls and gradually attuning our intentions to align with those of the progressive spirits who are always preparing us for evolution between death and rebirth and the attainment of our true human ideal that is the ‘religion of the Gods’. As we can tell, this is a process that necessarily unfolds over many lifetimes, epochs, and ages. There is no quick defeat of the adversarial forces through either ascetic avoidance or head-on activism. The only resistance is that which is born of true insight, cultivated over decades and lifetimes with great effort, and a loving redemptive impulse. So many religious people in the first century AD failed to recognize their Messiah because they expected him to wage war against the evil Roman Empire, but instead, he told people to turn their cheeks, love and forgive their enemies, and then triumphantly rode into Jerusalem on a donkey to offer himself up to the Empire, as the ultimate sacrifice for all Earthly beings including the adversaries who are entangled with our evolution. I am sure it sounds alarming and scary when I put it this way, but remember it is a gradient unfolding across our remaining evolution on Earth. The first thing is to adopt the inner redemptive disposition in our thinking through the phenomenal world and all its modern developments, exactly as Cleric described in the last post, which is already a form of triumphant sacrifice for our 'enemies'.

[Federica]

Ok, Cleric, Ashvin,

Thanks for your replies above. I will not say all that I would like to say, otherwise the most crucial thing I want to say will inevitably be snowed under the mass of text (Ashvin, yes, this is also what happened on the transhumanist topic, and it's the sole reason for the unaddressed Steiner quotes).


So, I want to make one single point for now. The following is a question that, to me, exemplifies 'using the concepts from the simulations as a way to probe the inner experience':

QUESTION: What kind of spiritual insights can be gained by observing attempts to ‘understand life’ that move from the bottom up, i.e. inductive, i.e. computational, through guessing a molecular or cellular geometry through analysis of databases, versus simulations that start from empirically determined geometry - i.e. measured/observed on natural or artificial molecules/cells - and then apply the laws of chemistry on top of that initial picture to predict the life dynamics of the entity? Is it in both cases the exact same mesmerization by scientific superstition that ignores the etheric nature of life, trying to understand it as configuration of material dynamics only, or not?

I have a sense that it is not so, but to make it short I am currently struggling to articulate that. So, I would think that asking questions like this one would be one possible proper way not to remain ignorant and fearful and avoidant (needless to say it's never been my attitude), while also offering that necessary resistance to Ahrimanic momentum (I picked the word from Steiner, but we can use another one).


Correspondingly, it seems to me that a question of the sort that you asked, Ashvin, which is: “How fascinating, so does it make sense that we will then be able to 3D-print liver cells to heal the poor at low costs?” goes into a slightly different direction compared to the question above. A direction that leans towards what Steiner calls “illusions of a mathematical nature about the universe", that are especially illusory "when we transpose them into our daily environment” as per the quote in my post just above, more than towards relating the simulation to our "deepened and delaminated experience".


- Am I making myself understood?
- Have I better clarified what distinction I was trying to make?
- Do you happen to have insights into the question I have expressed?

[AshvinP]

Ok, Cleric, Ashvin,

Thanks for your replies above. I will not say all that I would like to say, otherwise the most crucial thing I want to say will inevitably be snowed under the mass of text (Ashvin, yes, this is also what happened on the transhumanist topic, and it's the sole reason for the unaddressed Steiner quotes).


So, I want to make one single point for now. The following is a question that, to me, exemplifies 'using the concepts from the simulations as a way to probe the inner experience':

QUESTION: What kind of spiritual insights can be gained by observing attempts to ‘understand life’ that move from the bottom up, i.e. inductive, i.e. computational, through guessing a molecular or cellular geometry through analysis of databases, versus simulations that start from empirically determined geometry - i.e. measured/observed on natural or artificial molecules/cells - and then apply the laws of chemistry on top of that initial picture to predict the life dynamics of the entity? Is it in both cases the exact same mesmerization by scientific superstition that ignores the etheric nature of life, trying to understand it as configuration of material dynamics only, or not?

I have a sense that it is not so, but to make it short I am currently struggling to articulate that. So, I would think that asking questions like this one would be one possible proper way not to remain ignorant and fearful and avoidant (needless to say it's never been my attitude), while also offering that necessary resistance to Ahrimanic momentum (I picked the word from Steiner, but we can use another one).

Federica,

I agree that the question as you stated above, assuming of course we are interested in exploring the answers with an open mind, is a great way to engage the topic in a spiritually healthy way. I know that Cleric will offer a much more helpful and detailed answer to that question so I will keep my observation very general and brief.

By observing these patterns of thinking-feeling and trying to imitate the thinking gestures, so to speak, and observing the results, we are seeking to resonate with the underlying intentions that structure our epoch, both the spirits of progress and those of hindrances. At the same time, because our own individual soul-structure (higher and lower) is a microcosmic image of all the patterns of thinking-feeling-will that are embedded in the forms and activities of culture and nature, we are learning more about the depth structure of our be-ing and maturing spiritually in that way. In other words, we are not gaining insights through the materialistic conclusions of the research i.e. life is just an epiphenomenal manifestation of mindless and mechanically interacting particles, but through the way in which the research is carried out and the results that manifest from it. The scientists cannot help but stumble on valuable insights embedded in the results because, whether they know it or not (and usually not), their thinking activity is a lawful continuation of Cosmic spiritual activity and is therefore probing the very meaningful contours of reality. In that sense, when we approach the results with living thinking that doesn’t forget its own activity, we are mining insights from the results that could not possibly be mined when spiritual activity remains in the blind spot.

Correspondingly, it seems to me that a question of the sort that you asked, Ashvin, which is: “How fascinating, so does it make sense that we will then be able to 3D-print liver cells to heal the poor at low costs?” goes into a slightly different direction compared to the question above. A direction that leans towards what Steiner calls “illusions of a mathematical nature about the universe", that are especially illusory "when we transpose them into our daily environment” as per the quote in my post just above, more than towards relating the simulation to our "deepened and delaminated experience".


- Am I making myself understood?
- Have I better clarified what distinction I was trying to make?
- Do you happen to have insights into the question I have expressed?

I never asked that question, but I can see how you may have misconstrued it in that way. In that post, I was pointing to how things could go in one or two directions, or most likely in both.

1) The etheric forces remain unconscious and therefore the capacity for regeneration and healing remains concentrated in a small segment of the population with material resources because it is mediated through the mineral-technological element and people are generally unaware of this mediation.

2) The etheric forces are brought into consciousness by inner attunement and harmonization of the full-depth spectrum, i.e. inner moral transformation and elevation of cognition, and then individuals can find creative pathways to regenerating their own diseased organism, or helping others at minimal to no cost, without mediation by the mineral-technological element that requires the concentration of material resources. Practically, we are speaking of prayer, meditation, and all sorts of creative and moral ways of interacting with our environment and fellow beings. Most of these ways of interacting are completely unsuspected for the average person who is ignorant of the spiritual influences that surround us (including me). Eventually, this interaction will also take on a more artistic and scientific character and it already has to some extent, for ex. the Anthroposophical work in the medical field, such as Are Thoresen’s work with the elemental beings or healing via Eurhythmy, or Rolfing, etc. Just like with any science, we should expect these things to become more integrated and systematic and effective over time, and for new creative developments in the healing sciences that we can scarcely imagine now.

[AshvinP]

I never asked that question, but I can see how you may have misconstrued it in that way. In that post, I was pointing to how things could go in one or two directions, or most likely in both.

1) The etheric forces remain unconscious and therefore the capacity for regeneration and healing remains concentrated in a small segment of the population with material resources because it is mediated through the mineral-technological element and people are generally unaware of this mediation.

2) The etheric forces are brought into consciousness by inner attunement and harmonization of the full-depth spectrum, i.e. inner moral transformation and elevation of cognition, and then individuals can find creative pathways to regenerating their own diseased organism, or helping others at minimal to no cost, without mediation by the mineral-technological element that requires the concentration of material resources. Practically, we are speaking of prayer, meditation, and all sorts of creative and moral ways of interacting with our environment and fellow beings. Most of these ways of interacting are completely unsuspected for the average person who is ignorant of the spiritual influences that surround us (including me). Eventually, this interaction will also take on a more artistic and scientific character and it already has to some extent, for ex. the Anthroposophical work in the medical field, such as Are Thoresen’s work with the elemental beings or healing via Eurhythmy, or Rolfing, etc. Just like with any science, we should expect these things to become more integrated and systematic and effective over time, and for new creative developments in the healing sciences that we can scarcely imagine now.

By the way, I hope it’s clear that none of #2 is a circumventing or 'reshuffling' of Karma. It will only feel that way if we forget that an integral part of our Karma, or actually the fulfillment of our Karma, as envisioned by the Divine guidance of humanity, is to take more creative responsibility over the tasks that the Gods currently perform on our behalf. "I have not come to abolish the law or prophets, but to fulfill them." Every night the Gods work on regenerating our organism to some extent and that is the only reason we live as long as we do with the opportunities for moral perfection. But now they are withdrawing so that we may become more conscious. We could even say that the experience of becoming more conscious is nothing other than the withdrawal of Divine activity from certain spheres of our organism that we are ripe to take over. But again, the printing of cells through technology, if that actually becomes feasible, is the unconscious approach, since our moral and cognitive stature would remain the same. In other words, we wouldn’t actually be taking over the responsibilities of the Gods but actually giving them more responsibilities to undo the damage that we are causing in these domains by tinkering around in them without moral insight.