Cleric K wrote: ↑Thu Aug 31, 2023 4:07 pm
Federica wrote: ↑Thu Aug 31, 2023 2:28 pm
And if yes, isn’t it contradictory to say at the same time “I’m really looking forward to more simulations” and “cell regeneration should not happen by manipulating cells through technology?
Well, in a sense - yes, it is contradictory. To be sure, such simulations are in no way needed for the spiritual progress of humanity. And you are right that it is contradictory to look forward for something that may serve as a 'gateway drug' for regenerative technology. The reason I say this is because attempts in these simulations will be made anyway
(we can't convince scientists to abandon that route) so in that sense I'm simply looking forward to see if the results will confirm my intuitions. It's not that I'm looking forward for this because it is an indispensable milestone towards the Spirit.
AshvinP wrote: ↑Thu Aug 31, 2023 5:41 pm
I think it is clear from posts such as Cleric’s on this thread (including those yet to come on the full paper), that there is an inestimable value in probing such things to acquire an intuitive orientation to spiritual reality. In fact,
I find little else that is capable of directly stimulating my higher faculties in this way.
Cleric, Ashvin,
I see some specular statements in your last replies, hence this joint reply. Just a short note first: Cleric, I did get the use of “danger” as you intended it. The other possible meaning (that the simulation would not lead to hard trials) didn’t even occur to me, because it's unrealistic, simulations
will lead to real regeneration of cells. Now, I would like to get something clarified and out of the way first, especially for Ashvin, who insists with this every time technology is discussed. You say:
- We can’t stop those simulations anyway - (Cleric)
- We shouldn’t avoid the engagement of certain realities, which are unfolding whether we like it or not - (Ashvin)
Yes, I agree with that. It is a necessary and inevitable development, just as materialism has been, and is. I don’t suggest that we should remain ignorant, avoidant and fearful of new technology. So I hear and agree with a view such as this:
Steiner wrote:It would be a false conclusion to avoid the science of the day; that is the very falsest conclusion which could be drawn. We must get to know science; we should get an exact knowledge of all that comes from this direction — but with the full consciousness that we are receiving an illusory aspect, an illusion necessary for our education as men. We do not safeguard ourselves against Ahriman by avoiding modern science, but by learning to know its character. For modern science gives us an external illusion of the universe, and we need this illusion. Do not imagine that we do not need it. We must only fill it in from quite another side with actual reality gained through spiritual research, we must rise from the illusory character to the true reality. You will find reference in many of my lecture-courses to what I am telling you today, and you will see how everywhere it has been sought to enter fully into the science of our time, but to lift it all to the sphere where one can see its real value. You cannot wish to get rid of the rainbow because you know it to be an illusion of light and color! You will not understand it if you do not realize its illusory character. But it is just the same with all that modern science gives you for your imagination of the universe, it gives only illusions and that must be recognized. It is by educating oneself through these illusions that one arrives at the reality.
Now, as I see it, the question is: when one really looks forwards to these simulations so as to validate one’s intuitions (Cleric), when one identifies engagement in the simulations with the means by which one is overcoming fear of the unknown, and taking responsibility for healing (Ashvin),
is one truly building up the resistance to Ahriman that humanity desperately needs to build up now? Or is one being carried away by fascination? As Steiner said with reference to the imminent material incarnation of Ahriman:
Steiner wrote:A great part of mankind today is already under the control, from one side or another, of Ahrimanic forces of a cosmic nature which are growing stronger and stronger. … Ahrimanic powers prepare the evolution of mankind in such a way that it can fall prey to Ahriman when he appears in human form within Western civilization.
It is of no avail to give oneself illusions today about these things. Ahriman will appear in human form and the only question is, how he will find humanity prepared. Will his preparations have secured for him as followers the whole of mankind that today calls itself civilized, or will he find a humanity that can offer resistance.
Not to be philistine, please know that I am keeping a balanced - dispassioned, as Ashvin would say - view of Ahriman. Ahriman is necessary on the way to freedom, as Scaligero reminded us “ in the sphere of Ahriman, man finally becomes independent from Lucifer”. Nonetheless one can wonder, with respect to intentions such as:
- I really look forward to more simulations. I deem them immoral tasks (regeneration should not happen by manipulating cells' contents through technology) but I simply mean that, because they can’t be stopped, I want to see if my intuitions are spot-on - (Cleric)
- I find little else capable of stimulating my higher faculties so I want to know if we can 3D-print liver cells to have standard doctors to heal people who lack funding - (Ashvin)
Do they contribute to the
necessary resistance Steiner speaks of? Or do these intentions work as coadjuvants, as promoting agents of the enormously preponderant Ahrimanic impulse of these days? Clearly, the least thing we want to provide the Ahrimanic impulse with nowadays is…. sympathetic intentions. One can wonder if it’s useful to sacrifice the necessary resistance, letting it be preempted by the
need to validate, or stimulate, one’s faculties.
Cleric: As such, your statement seems quite anti-Cleric to me. You teach us that, regardless of how much something can be stopped on the physical plane,
how we think about it plays a crucial role. Maybe there is a way in which this intention constitutes the mentioned necessary resistance to Ahriman, but if so, I can’t see how?
Ashvin: Beyond that fact that your statement is not very nice towards the elemental beings that you were able to perceive in the air - one could think of those beings as maybe also a valuable stimulation of higher faculties? - I want to ask, well, just because you can’t find stimulation does that mean that it’s fine to let yourself fantasize about fascinating scenarios of 3D printed liver cells to heal the poor and brave the unknown?
Where is the resistance to Ahrimanic overwhelming powers in this thoughts?
Steiner wrote:The only right view — according to spiritual science — is to realize that all that is accepted by way of mere world-mathematics, mere world-schematism of a mechanical order, does not furnish man with absolute truth about the universe, but with illusions. The illusions are necessary because mankind goes through varied forms of education in its different stages of evolution. For modern education we need these illusions of a mathematical nature about the universe, we must acquire them, but we must know that they are illusions. And most of all, they are illusions when we transpose them into our daily environment, when, in accordance with the atomic or molecular theories, we even endeavor to create a kind of astronomy for the substances of the earth. A right attitude in regard to the whole of modern science, insofar as it thinks along these lines, will recognize that its knowledge is illusion.
Now, in order that his incarnation may take the most profitable form, it is of the utmost interest to Ahriman that people should perfect themselves in all our illusory modern science, but without knowing that it is illusion. Ahriman has the greatest possible interest in instructing men in mathematics, but not in instructing them that mathematical-mechanistic concepts of the universe are merely illusions. … To conceal from mankind that in modern intellectual, rationalistic science with its supplement of a superstitious empiricism, one is dealing with a great illusion, a deception — that men should not recognize this is of the greatest possible interest to Ahriman. He would have the greatest success if he could then come as a human being into Western civilization and find the scientific superstition.
Post scriptum to Ashvin
“
Exploring such topics in the 'mineral sphere' deeply with our spiritual activity is not other than enhancing the thinking side of things.”
No, not necessarily. It depends entirely on
how we do that. Exploration in itself can lead to opposite results, only the how would tell, if we are really enhancing the thinking side of things.
“
It is fear of the unknown and unfamiliar that is Ahr’s greatest weapon against the Spirit”
Is it? This is not how
Steiner puts it. Ahriman’s weapons are: 1. To induce humanity to fall into scientific superstition. 2. To create disharmony among groups of people, and to make them fight against each other.
“
I think it is clear from posts such as Cleric’s on this thread (including those yet to come on the full paper), that there is an inestimable value in probing such things to acquire an intuitive orientation to spiritual reality.”
Come on, Ashvin, nothing can be clear from posts yet to come. Again, you are letting yourself be carried away…