OK than, Rosicrucian believed in reincarnation into humans, as well as Anthroposophists, but that is against the Nicene Creed. I consider any sect which faith does not comply with the Nicene Creed to be not Christian (at least in a full sense).Stranger wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:56 pmBut that is exactly how the majority of people perceive the world: they indeed mistake and idolize as true the isolated imagination for the actual World-state and confuse it for the actual World-state, that is exactly what the dualistic insanity is. It is true that the sane state is contained in the actual World-state as a lawful state, and that is exactly why the recovery is possible. But, as I said many times, the "orthogonality" simply means that a person cannot simultaneously hold the isolated imagination as the actual World-state as true, and at the same time hold the wholistic perception of the Oneness as the actual World-state as true. They logically contradict each other. It is the same as one cannot simultaneously be a materialist and idealist as these worldviews are incompatible and contradict each other. You probably see a different meaning in the term "orthogonality" and that is why we are arguing here.AshvinP wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:19 pm This person who imagines the cup coming back together could be called 'insane' if he mistakes the isolated imagination for the actual World-state, which means he is implicitly treating them as orthogonal. The act of imagination itself is part of the evolving World-state and does not constitute insanity of its own accord. We only develop 'spiritual insanity' if we idolize our isolated dualistic perception and confuse it for the actual World-state, without realizing there are many other lawful relations at work in which our imagination of the cup coming back together is constrained from making the cup come back together. It only develops if we say, 'either my act of imagination is part of the World-state or the cup is shattered, but it can't be both at the same time'.
Heindel , Max. The Rosicrucian Cosmo Conception (Illustrated) (pp. 164-165). Kindle Edition.
Yes, the term was adopted from Greek mythology, but the term does not really matter, it's the actual spiritual reality that matters. Christians called him "Satan". The real difference between Christian and Gnostic views is that Gnostics believed that the Demiurge actually created the material world (so the material world is irreparably corrupted) while Christians believed that the true God created material world as "good" but it was corrupted by the actions of Satan and the fall of Adam and remains to be corrupted and under the rule of Satan until the second coming of Christ (re. Apocalypses and the quotes from Gospels and Epistles that I gave).Also, not that this really matters, but on the term 'Demiurge':
Why does it matter how the majority of people think or what the creeds say? What relevance does this have to whether the nondual being can progressively experience itself within the lawful constraints and thereby progressively unveil its leeway of becoming within those constraints? Those things only have relevance to someone who has idolized the exoteric forms. Then you say, the exoteric form of how 'majority of people think' dictates the conclusion that we are in a Demiurgic realm, or the exoteric form of the Nicene creed dictates the conclusion that anyone who disagrees is not 'Christian' (also remember your original point was that reincarnation, spiritual progress, and transfiguration of the dense body is nowhere to be found in esoteric tradition,"leaving aside all exoteric traditions").
This whole exoteric vs. esoteric duality falls away if we "self-remember while we think and believe", as Cleric put it. Then we don't end up convincing ourselves that we are doing something differently than the majority of people when we derive absolute conclusions from how we currently perceive the world in abstract thought. That the nondual and dual states are orthogonal, separate, or whatever only exists in abstract thought which experientially isolates one from the other. The same holds for worldviews like materialism and idealism - the interwoven reality of matter and idea is only separated in abstract thought. And actually people who do this abstract separation then continually oscillate between inclination towards one or the other in their inward and outward lives. The solution is simple - inwardly investigate the contours of the very activity which does this abstract separation. Then everything material and dual and exoteric begins to be seen in its depth of spiritual, nondual, esoteric Light. That inward investigation is exactly what Cleric has been presenting on this thread and has so far been completely avoided by dint of "agreement".