The realm of the Demiurge

[AshvinP]

This is a great explication, Eugene! It seems you really put in the effort for Mike The bold is especially a key insight, which Cleric has also illustrated through the hysteresis rhythm of thinking-perception.

Indeed it is difficult to verbalize these nondual experiences, but clearly there is a gradient of understanding through which it can be crystallized into very useful images and concepts, as you have just shown.

I'm glad we finally converged to this common ground!

Thanks for the detailed and clear explanation Eugene! We at least achieved a high point of agreement between you and Ashvin here, although it didn’t continue for long, lol.

Mike,

I hope it's clear that living spiritual understanding is not rooted in reaching agreement on outer concepts, which can easily be done in all spheres of philosophy and spirituality. We all agree that the everything and everyone is One Consciousness, and many similar things which can be deduced from such an insight, but that leaves the entire gradient of our first-person intuitive becoming within this Oneness in the lurch. That is what Cleric, Federica, and myself have been trying to approach with Eugene in various ways from many different angles.

What was great about Eugene's post to you was that, while previously he had been telling us there is no point to him even trying to explicate the experience of 'nondual consciousness' because it has no meaning for our dual-consciousness, which is similar to what you told Cleric, he then proceeded to build somewhat of a gradient between dual and nondual through conceptual language. The real value in doing such a thing is not the content of what is written, but becoming conscious of what the act of doing it implies - that there is no principle limit to the gradient which can be built between dual and nondual thinking experience. The path to spiritual freedom is exactly in the upbuilding of the gradient between (a) what we are doing in the depths of our thinking and (b) what we are thinking about or perceiving in our thoughts.

[Lou Gold]

I grok your drift Eugene although I confess that I can at times stumble on your words as much as on Ashvin's. Indeed, I fall hardest stumbling on my own words. Perhaps, it is far simpler for me to skip the analytic layers and arguments and go directly to sharing the shine, noting with Blake that "eternity is in love with the productions of time." Perhaps the results can hold a bit of splendor or at least its promise or maybe just some pleasure or joy. I dunno the deep story with logical certainty but the promise of perhaps is enough to hold my heart in a happy way.

Lou, I hope my answer to Federica also addresses your above reply. There is nothing inherently wrong with the "production of time" and with the Mother Earth and material realm, it is not dualistic by itself. Duality is only an incoherent way of perceiving the World of forms unfolding in time.

Eugene, Well, ok, if we understand that incoherence itself has a role to play in the process. The pain, suffering, frustration, anxiety, etc, etc, produced by the illusion is a driver of the quest for more conherency, better fitting action, more clarity and what we call creativity. Yes! Even the tantrums are part of the process. Ashvin shines by producing a better argument and he expresses frustration when he doesn't prevail. There are roles for the particulars of the great diversity of forms. To better grok all this, one might meditate on the activities of the 40+ trillion cells in your own body, cells that are doing everything imaginable -- war and peace, good and evil, this and that, which are of the realm of movement AND nothing at all in the realm of repose. The Master Teacher nailed it in the Gospel of Thomas. So did Avalokiteshvaraya in the Heart Sutra. The preacher in Ecclesiastes said "turn, turn, turn." Rumi produced over 65,000 verses of ecstatic poetry while doing so. Ram Dass just called it "Grist for the mill." All part of the glories of the Great Mysteriousness.

[Stranger]

Eugene, Well, ok, if we understand that incoherence itself has a role to play in the process. The pain, suffering, frustration, anxiety, etc, etc, produced by the illusion is a driver of the quest for more conherency, better fitting action, more clarity and what we call creativity. Yes! Even the tantrums are part of the process. Ashvin shines by producing a better argument and he expresses frustration when he doesn't prevail. There are roles for the particulars of the great diversity of forms. To better grok all this, one might meditate on the activities of the 40+ trillion cells in your own body, cells that are doing everything imaginable -- war and peace, good and evil, this and that, which are of the realm of movement AND nothing at all in the realm of repose. The Master Teacher nailed it in the Gospel of Thomas. So did Avalokiteshvaraya in the Heart Sutra. The preacher in Ecclesiastes said "turn, turn, turn." Rumi produced over 65,000 verses of ecstatic poetry while doing so. Ram Dass just called it "Grist for the mill." All part of the glories of the Great Mysteriousness.

I agree, Lou, I often use extreme labels like "delusion" etc to emphacise the point, but in reality the "incoherence" is a natural evolutionary step, we could not skip it on our evolutionary path, we learn from it and it has its usefulness and role. But eventually we grow out from it and develop immunity. And paradoxically, the pain, suffering, frustration, anxiety, etc are the forces that catalyze our search for the underlying causes of the suffering and lead us to the discoveries of spiritual mechanisms behind the incoherency. So, the bottom-line is: we should not remain stuck in the incoherency, it will only stagnate us and prolong the suffering, but instead we should move on in growing to more mature levels.

[Lou Gold]

Eugene, Well, ok, if we understand that incoherence itself has a role to play in the process. The pain, suffering, frustration, anxiety, etc, etc, produced by the illusion is a driver of the quest for more conherency, better fitting action, more clarity and what we call creativity. Yes! Even the tantrums are part of the process. Ashvin shines by producing a better argument and he expresses frustration when he doesn't prevail. There are roles for the particulars of the great diversity of forms. To better grok all this, one might meditate on the activities of the 40+ trillion cells in your own body, cells that are doing everything imaginable -- war and peace, good and evil, this and that, which are of the realm of movement AND nothing at all in the realm of repose. The Master Teacher nailed it in the Gospel of Thomas. So did Avalokiteshvaraya in the Heart Sutra. The preacher in Ecclesiastes said "turn, turn, turn." Rumi produced over 65,000 verses of ecstatic poetry while doing so. Ram Dass just called it "Grist for the mill." All part of the glories of the Great Mysteriousness.

I agree, Lou, I often use extreme labels like "delusion" etc to emphacise the point, but in reality the "incoherence" is a natural evolutionary step, we could not skip it on our evolutionary path, we learn from it and it has its usefulness and role. But eventually we grow out from it and develop immunity. And paradoxically, the pain, suffering, frustration, anxiety, etc are the forces that catalyze our search for the underlying causes of the suffering and lead us to the discoveries of spiritual mechanisms behind the incoherency. So, the bottom-line is: we should not remain stuck in the incoherency, it will only stagnate us and prolong the suffering, but instead we should move on in growing to more mature levels.

Perhaps, we also should not get stuck with an expectation of a permanence, a singularity, an end-state. The Master generally just says, "You're forgiven. Don't do it again."

[Stranger]

Perhaps, we also should not get stuck with an expectation of a permanence, a singularity, an end-state. The Master generally just says, "You're forgiven. Don't do it again."

Oh sure, I think we agreed on that long time ago

[Lou Gold]

Perhaps, we also should not get stuck with an expectation of a permanence, a singularity, an end-state. The Master generally just says, "You're forgiven. Don't do it again."

Oh sure, I think we agreed on that long time ago

VIVA! The process. May all beings perform as well as possible. It's a satisfaction to feel one is performing as well as one can, while knowing that one has barely scratched the surface - such a sweet study it all is. I'm tempted to say, "As the answers fade, the questions sweeten."

[Stranger]

What was great about Eugene's post to you was that, while previously he had been telling us there is no point to him even trying to explicate the experience of 'nondual consciousness' because it has no meaning for our dual-consciousness, which is similar to what you told Cleric, he then proceeded to build somewhat of a gradient between dual and nondual through conceptual language. The real value in doing such a thing is not the content of what is written, but becoming conscious of what the act of doing it implies - that there is no principle limit to the gradient which can be built between dual and nondual thinking experience. The path to spiritual freedom is exactly in the upbuilding of the gradient between (a) what we are doing in the depths of our thinking and (b) what we are thinking about or perceiving in our thoughts.

As I said before, the gradient and the bridge can be built and the language and conceptual apparatus can be developed. Also, in order to establish the gradient, it is important to understand the details of the mechanism of how dualistic state of mind forms, how it functions etc,, in order to be able to disengage and sacrifice it (something I tried to approach in this post), and develop such understanding not from a theoretical discourse, but from inner experience of observations of how the mechanism of perception works. That is different from studying the byproducts and structures of the dualistic state that have little relevance to the bridging to the nondual state.

It is actually quite important to experientially study and understand the mechanism of the dualistic perception. Some people do not understand it but try to engage in nondual practices and think that they need to stop the perception at the "no-mind nondual soup" stage of just perceiving the raw sensory data (see my post again) in order to remain in the nondual stage, which is a mistake in practice. To arrive at a fully functional nondual state where consciousness can think and will in full capacity, we need to understand at which stage of perception processing flow the cognitive mistake of dualistic perception actually occurs and needs to be dismantled.

[AshvinP]

What was great about Eugene's post to you was that, while previously he had been telling us there is no point to him even trying to explicate the experience of 'nondual consciousness' because it has no meaning for our dual-consciousness, which is similar to what you told Cleric, he then proceeded to build somewhat of a gradient between dual and nondual through conceptual language. The real value in doing such a thing is not the content of what is written, but becoming conscious of what the act of doing it implies - that there is no principle limit to the gradient which can be built between dual and nondual thinking experience. The path to spiritual freedom is exactly in the upbuilding of the gradient between (a) what we are doing in the depths of our thinking and (b) what we are thinking about or perceiving in our thoughts.

As I said before, the gradient and the bridge can be built and the language and conceptual apparatus can be developed. Also, in order to establish the gradient, it is important to understand the details of the mechanism of how dualistic state of mind forms, how it functions etc,, in order to be able to disengage and sacrifice it (something I tried to approach in this post), and develop such understanding not from a theoretical discourse, but from inner experience of observations of how the mechanism of perception works. That is different from studying the byproducts and structures of the dualistic state that have little relevance to the bridging to the nondual state.

It is actually quite important to experientially study and understand the mechanism of the dualistic perception. Some people do not understand it but try to engage in nondual practices and think that they need to stop the perception at the "no-mind nondual soup" stage of just perceiving the raw sensory data (see my post again) in order to remain in the nondual stage, which is a mistake in practice. To arrive at a fully functional nondual state where consciousness can think and will in full capacity, we need to understand at which stage of perception processing flow the cognitive mistake of dualistic perception actually occurs and needs to be dismantled.

Right, and I would say that is exactly what spiritual training for the higher I-modes of cognition does. Except it doesn't lay these 'mechanisms' of dualistic perception out before us as the engine parts. Our very soul-life is intimately interwoven with these 'mechanisms'. Becoming more conscious of them necessarily transforms us, our very "I"-dentity. The inner investigation leads us into the flow of our own theories, habits, prejudices, passions, impulses, character, temperament, and eventually into the stream of our trans-incarnational Karma, which leads into that of our family, nation, and species. If our theory is that no such nested hierarchy exists and is conditioning our current perspective in the first place, and we aren't willing to sacrifice any such theory for the sake of this inner investigation, then obviously it won't lead us into those deeper flows.

I am also interested in hearing your response to this post - viewtopic.php?p=19566#p19566

[Stranger]

I am also interested in hearing your response to this post - viewtopic.php?p=19566#p19566

I think I answered it here

I think most of our misunderstandings come from differences in language and conceptual apparatus since we approach the same subject from somewhat different backgrounds with different linguistic terms to describe the same spiritual reality and its processes.

The inner investigation leads us into the flow of our own theories, habits, prejudices, passions, impulses, character, temperament, and eventually into the stream of our trans-incarnational Karma, which leads into that of our family, nation, and species. If our theory is that no such nested hierarchy exists and is conditioning our current perspective in the first place, and we aren't willing to sacrifice any such theory for the sake of this inner investigation, then obviously it won't lead us into those deeper flows.

That hierarchy definitely exists, out whole structure from human personality up to the system of a variety of human beliefs and socio-economic structures is hierarchically built on the foundation of these subconscious erroneous perceptual cognitive mechanisms where the dualistic perception occurs and where the subconscious belief in the realty of "separate self" resides, upon which a whole hierarchy of egoic desires and behavioral-cognitive patterns is built in the subconscious levels of each person psyche, as well as in the collective subconscious . It is a futile attempt to rebuild the "branches" of the structure without diving into its roots, because similar branches will grow from the same roots again. That is why social experiments and restructuring on the society scale never fully work because the egoic core in each member of the society remains intact.

My only skepticism is based on the observation of how exceptionally rare are the individuals that are willing to dive into the depths of their psyche to discover and practically work on unrooting these egoic structures and the dualistic perception. It means that we should not expect any noticeable changes on the mass scale of the society coming from such deep transformation any time soon. I'm still always hopeful, but try to be realistic.

And my other skeptical comment is on Anthroposophy in particular, and I think Federica agreed on that. Steiner's philosophy and esoteric system is written in a style and language that is almost impossible to comprehend for an average human person. Even for people with philosophical, spiritual-practical and scientific background (like me for example) it is a big challenge to understand. The writings of other Anthroposophists, like you, Klocek or Cleric for example, are no less challenging. You can see how often other members of the forum complain that they simply do not understand what these writings are saying. From that perspective, IMO, Anthroposophy remains an esoteric system for intellectual elite, and because of that, it is unlikely that it will make any impact on the level of society at large.

[AshvinP]

I am also interested in hearing your response to this post - viewtopic.php?p=19566#p19566

I think I answered it here

Your link goes back to Cleric's old comment. You did briefly answer that one, but not his comment after that.

I think most of our misunderstandings come from differences in language and conceptual apparatus since we approach the same subject from somewhat different backgrounds with different linguistic terms to describe the same spiritual reality and its processes.

The inner investigation leads us into the flow of our own theories, habits, prejudices, passions, impulses, character, temperament, and eventually into the stream of our trans-incarnational Karma, which leads into that of our family, nation, and species. If our theory is that no such nested hierarchy exists and is conditioning our current perspective in the first place, and we aren't willing to sacrifice any such theory for the sake of this inner investigation, then obviously it won't lead us into those deeper flows.

That hierarchy definitely exists, out whole structure from human personality up to the system of a variety of human beliefs and socio-economic structures is hierarchically built on the foundation of these subconscious erroneous perceptual cognitive mechanisms where the dualistic perception occurs and where the subconscious belief in the realty of "separate self" resides, upon which a whole hierarchy of egoic desires and behavioral-cognitive patterns is built in the subconscious levels of each person psyche, as well as in the collective subconscious . It is a futile attempt to rebuild the "branches" of the structure without diving into its roots, because similar branches will grow from the same roots again. That is why social experiments and restructuring on the society scale never fully work because the egoic core in each member of the society remains intact.

My only skepticism is based on the observation of how exceptionally rare are the individuals that are willing to dive into the depths of their psyche to discover and practically work on unrooting these egoic structures and the dualistic perception. It means that we should not expect any noticeable changes on the mass scale of the society coming from such deep transformation any time soon. I'm still always hopeful, but try to be realistic.

And my other skeptical comment is on Anthroposophy in particular, and I think Federica agreed on that. Steiner's philosophy and esoteric system is written in a style and language that is almost impossible to comprehend for an average human person. Even for people with philosophical, spiritual-practical and scientific background (like me for example) it is a big challenge to understand. The writings of other Anthroposophists, like you, Klocek or Cleric for example, are no less challenging. You can see how often other members of the forum complain that they simply do not understand what these writings are saying. From that perspective, IMO, Anthroposophy remains an esoteric system for intellectual elite, and because of that, it is unlikely that it will make any impact on the level of society at large.

That we will learn to comprehend writing which seemed complex and unapproachable before is actually the most superifical transformation which will occur for us on the path of inner growth. Everyone starts off with this view of spiritual scientific writings, including me. We are dealing with entirely new evolutionary impulses here, new forms of cognition and perception and understanding. The language centers around what is mostly supersensible. But with inner effort and persistence on the path, the whole situation inverts. The philosophical and religious analysis which used to seem very straightforward and 'concrete' is revealed in its prosaic abstractness, its consistent hand-waving, although we can even better comprehend how seemingly disparate theories/models are derived from the exact same old habits of thinking. On the other hand, we get an increasingly better intuitive orientation for how spiritual science gives us the language for the very inner archetypal core of our ceaseless becoming. Of course you can dismiss this as partisan explanation, but I am reporting to you my own concrete experience in the last 2 years. And it doesn't matter if its Steiner's 'system' or someone else's or noone's at all - we will learn to encompass them all with increasing ease through the inner transformation, because all outer forms are physiognomic expressions of these inner forces we are integrating.

I think you are misconstruing Federica's position as well. She may have great difficulty with the texts currently, but the key is that she knows it is due to her own current state of development and she has a very concrete sense of how the situation evolves over time, based on her experiences so far. That's all it takes - an inner disposition towards 'repentance' or metanoia and a consistent diet of inner effort, and the rest unfolds of its own accord. If we are still measuring the potential progress of humanity by its current state of cognition and the purely outward facing aspects of society, then we are still missing that the path of higher cognition draws on impulses not yet actualized for inner transformation. We expect the egoic structures and the dualistic habits to fade away for ourselves within a few years and for humanity in the course of our lifetime, and when it looks like this isn't happening, we conclude there is some immutable law which prevents individuals from consciously steering their intuitive becoming. That unreasonable expectation is not humanity's limitation, but our own. Once our moral-cognitive aperture begins to expand and encompass the higher individuality which passes through many incarnations, and which locates the source of all cultural and natural change within the supra-sensory planes, we don't place so much important on what seems to be happening on the physical plane within a timeline measured by years.

Likewise, it really makes no difference the quantity of people who take up an interest in this inner transformation to begin with in its earliest stages, but the quality and enthusiasm of the few people who do. That is how the spiritual future comes to concrete manifestation.

“To what shall we liken the kingdom of God? Or with what parable shall we picture it? It is like a mustard seed which, when it is sown on the ground, is smaller than all the seeds on earth; but when it is sown, it grows up and becomes greater than all herbs, and shoots out large branches, so that the birds of the air may nest under its shade.”