The realm of the Demiurge

Any topics primarily focused on metaphysics can be discussed here, in a generally casual way, where conversations may take unexpected turns.
Stranger
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Re: The realm of the Demiurge

Post by Stranger »

Cleric K wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:08 am Alright, now we’re at the point where we should be exceptionally vigilant.
I agree with all you said above, Cleric. And, to remind again, Steiner himself was pledging to embrace and reach the nondual state, which I addressed in the Insight into the full nature of reality topic.
In the same way, in intuitive cognition, one lives in all things. The perception of the ego is the prototype of all intuitive cognition. Thus to enter into all things, one must first step outside oneself. One must become “selfless” in order to become blended with the “self,” the “ego” of another being.”

A time certainly is approaching when people will start to yearn for insight into the full nature of reality. Today there is a fierce opposition to a holistic view of things, not only in theoretical things, but also in ordinary life.

Rudolf Steiner
And yes, the states are bridgeable, even through a common dualistic language, but only if a person listening is open to seek the deeper nondual meanings being conveyed through the dualistic language sentences. As long as there is an openness and desire to seek, the possibility is real.
"Keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you" (Matthew 7:7)
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AshvinP
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Re: The realm of the Demiurge

Post by AshvinP »

Stranger wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:50 pm And yes, the states are bridgeable, even through a common dualistic language, but only if a person listening is open to seek the deeper nondual meanings being conveyed through the dualistic language sentences. As long as there is an openness and desire to seek, the possibility is real.
"Keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you" (Matthew 7:7)
Eugene,

Do you have any examples you can share where this was done?
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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Cleric K
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Re: The realm of the Demiurge

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Stranger wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:50 pm ...
Okay, so we have the initial conditions settled. This is the easier part. Now the more difficult part is to begin expanding our intuition of the way our existential flow unfolds. It’s not a matter of simply devising an intellectual algorithm (like GPT) which should be able to make future predictions based on existing perceptions (basically all that our science tries to do). Instead we should feel how in our stream of becoming there’s always something new that flows, there’s always something unpredictable that flows through our thinking, feeling and willing. Yet it is still lawful, it follows some rhythmic patterns. Becoming human in the true sense of the word should lead us towards this state where we swim in the stream of becoming, intuitively navigating the state-spaces. Our science evolves as increasing intuitive orientation within the way the World-state evolves.

It immediately becomes clear that we feel consciously responsible for only parts of the full spectrum of that becoming. The vast volume of the World-state transforms quite independently from our whims. Or does it?

Here’s something subtle that we very often overlook. Let’s say that a cup falls down and shatters. Then I think “I wish that didn’t happen. If the world is of spiritual essence why can’t I simply imagine the pieces coming back together and the cup jumping intact on my desk?” But in the literal sense we do exactly that! We imagine the cup coming together. This is what we do with our spiritual activity and this is what we get! We indeed steer the World state in a direction where we imagine the cup coming together. And all of this is really part of the World state, our brain fires differently in that direction – firing that is in harmony with the holistic direction in which we move.

When we imagine the cup coming together we steer through states where we experience such imaginative content and it is holistically in tune with corresponding parts of the sensory spectrum. We shouldn’t conceive that our imagination ‘sends waves’ that cause the brain to fire in some way or vice versa. The World-state evolves as something whole. The question is in what ways we can feel creatively responsible for the evolution of the state.

To summarize – when we imagine the cup coming together, this is what we get – we evolve towards a World state where the contents of our imagination and the brain state, and in fact everything in the Cosmos, is just what it should be for our state to be what it is.

It is our own erroneous assumption that ordinary imagination should somehow be holistically reflected in the sensory cup, in the same way it is reflected in our nervous system. It certainly points us in a direction but obviously we need to evolve that imagination in completely new degrees of freedom if we should be able to steer the World-state towards a state where the cup is intact.

This is a very rich topic and I have some metaphors about this to build some intuition but I’ll leave that for future posts because there are many things to be said. When we develop this intuition we begin to understand very well why the World-state can’t evolve in any arbitrary way. (This has been mentioned in older posts. It really has to do with what was called ‘the principle of continuity of consciousness’. In other words, we naively imagine that some distinct part of the physical world – like the cup – can change arbitrarily according to our purely human desires, without this having severe consequences for the whole World and ourselves. I can expand on this if there’s interest.)

Thus, after the kindergarten of the purely sensory sciences, we now approach the true science of intuitive becoming. This shouldn’t be confused with instinctive becoming. Quite the reverse, this becoming should become even more meaningful and lawful than our present thinking (which is largely instinctive for most people). We need to understand the ways in which we constantly steer the World-state and what are the lawful patterns of the state-spaces that we thus traverse, how they are shaped by the total activity of human and other beings.

In thinking and imagination we have the most freedom for metamorphosing the World-state. Yet the immediate effects of these transitions are reflected mainly in our bodily processes.

In our feeling life we confront something much more inert. Most of our feelings, sympathies and antipathies change so gradually that we consider them an inseparable part of our character. Yet these are once again lawful properties of the emotional space that we traverse.

It’s even more difficult to alter our temperament, digestion, gait, handwriting and so on. And it’s practically impossible to change the mineral structure of our being once it ossifies.

Thanks to the wise way in which our bodily sheaths are attuned, as a fine gradient, it is possible for our imaginative states to be holistically integrated with the bodily states which we experience as will.

I’ll stop here. The point in this post is to show that realizing our existence as being at the center of becoming of the World-state (every perspective feels itself to be at the center – it’s relativity) is only the first step. Our true science begins when we more and more experience our normal daily life as such steering through state-space and develop deeper intuition about the lawfulness of the patterns of states that we go through in time.

Let’s see if we’re still on the same page and we can continue our studies further.
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Re: The realm of the Demiurge

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Cleric K wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:24 pm I’ll stop here. The point in this post is to show that realizing our existence as being at the center of becoming of the World-state (every perspective feels itself to be at the center – it’s relativity) is only the first step. Our true science begins when we more and more experience our normal daily life as such steering through state-space and develop deeper intuition about the lawfulness of the patterns of states that we go through in time.

Let’s see if we’re still on the same page and we can continue our studies further.
Cleric, all you wrote sounds good. I'm not sure what it has to do with the topic of this thread. Maybe you should start another topic?
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Re: The realm of the Demiurge

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AshvinP wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:47 pm Eugene,

Do you have any examples you can share where this was done?
Not sure I understand you question. Examples of what?
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Cleric K
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Re: The realm of the Demiurge

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Stranger wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:52 pm Cleric, all you wrote sounds good. I'm not sure what it has to do with the topic of this thread. Maybe you should start another topic?
What it has to do with the topic is that we gain true understanding of the realm of the Demiurge through deepening of self-knowledge. Not in the sense of preoccupying ourselves with our own persona but by understanding how our individual perspective is what it is only when seen in relation to the whole Cosmos. I wrote something about this in the other thread.

The goal of this gradual development of the ideas in the last few posts is to simply see how we can start from the givens of our existence and work further for developing living intuitive orientation within the stream of becoming. Not simply as an abstract theory but as practically applicable wisdom.

With such understanding, it becomes conceivable that the realm of the Demiurge is not simply some environment in which we have been planted but is part of the spectrum of the World-state. It should be clear that what we call the adversarial forces of evolution can’t simply be projected to something outside of us. These forces actively shape the curvature of the state spaces that we traverse. The only way we can progress is by gaining clearer consciousness of the lawfulness of these spaces. This means that we have to recognize the inspirations of the Demiurge within ourselves. Each one of us lives in them.

And the first place where we find these patterns are in our own heart. Our passions, desires, sympathies, antipathies, fears and hopes.

Each one of us can observe how volatile our character is. One day we feel great enthusiasm about a certain activity. Another day we look at it apathetically and wonder how we may have been thrilled by it earlier.

These are the wells of our astral nature through which we pass, as the planets through the Zodiac. It is for this reason that we should always seek that Being which has its stable center even amidst the volatile ebbs and flows.

In the past, our incarnations could pass entirely in a fixed soul mood. And even today we can see people who are in almost permanent mood. Especially those who never sought any deeper comprehension of reality and reach their old years as grumpy persons who curse the politicians, the youth and so on. It’s practically impossible to explain to them that they have failed to learn basic navigation through the configuration spaces of the soul. Instead, in their eyes it’s the whole world that it is at fault.

When we actively engage in our stream of becoming it is as if these rotations of the astral currents become faster and faster, similarly to the way a vortex speeds up towards its center. This gives us a unique possibility for accelerated learning because soul configurations that in the past would have to be experienced in a few incarnations, today we can experience in a few months or years. It depends on whether we would take a conscious approach to this.

As always, the greatest trap is to stop at a certain stage and say “Now these and these mood swings are part of my volatile lower nature, but these and these preferences are part of my immutable higher being because they feel relatively permanent.”

That’s why we need the high ideal. We should always look beyond our present state because it is always transient. What is permanent is not our preferences, our sympathies and antipathies but only the ever evolving intuitive context of our becoming.
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Re: The realm of the Demiurge

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Cleric K wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:59 pm What it has to do with the topic is that we gain true understanding of the realm of the Demiurge through deepening of self-knowledge.
Well, yes, all you described applies to the realm of the Demiurge and is definitely relevant for the souls traversing this realm. They would certainly benefit from understanding what is going on at the larger scale in order to speed up their evolution. But that is only as long as a soul stays in this dualistic realm of the Demiurge. Once a soul leaps to the nondual mode, all these structures become less important, and become irrelevant once the switchover is complete. And then the content and dynamics of the nondual mode become relevant for them, but that's a different content.
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Federica
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Re: The realm of the Demiurge

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I know what follows could be traced back to my inability to read the nondual meaning in this dual language we are bound to, but isn’t there a paradoxical aura to this short statement?
You say that the non-dual mode is a mode a soul can leap to coming from another mode, namely the realm of the Demiurge. How can such a twofold system not be understood on a par with a dualistic one?
It's as if all focus went to vertical non-duality, but horizontally, the realm of the Demiurge still needs to be accomodated somewhere/somehow, so there's this border, that souls can cross.
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
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Cleric K
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Re: The realm of the Demiurge

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Stranger wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:32 pm Well, yes, all you described applies to the realm of the Demiurge and is definitely relevant for the souls traversing this realm. They would certainly benefit from understanding what is going on at the larger scale in order to speed up their evolution. But that is only as long as a soul stays in this dualistic realm of the Demiurge. Once a soul leaps to the nondual mode, all these structures become less important, and become irrelevant once the switchover is complete. And then the content and dynamics of the nondual mode become relevant for them, but that's a different content.
OK, we arrived at the critical point.

So far we followed how we can start from the givens of our Earthbound experience and work our way towards deeper intuitive orientation within our stream of becoming.

The undeveloped man mainly freefalls through the curvatures of the configuration spaces, much like a ball rolls downhill, following the curvature of the topology. Instincts and desires shape the landscape through which man rolls.

The intellectual man finds certain leeway, where he can navigate through mental images of the past and future, which allows him to conceive novel ways of traversing the spaces. Yet the direction of the ideas is still largely steered by unconscious sympathies and antipathies.

Then the spiritual man, who is only now beginning to make his appearance on the evolutionary stage, finds his unity with the World. Our stream of becoming coincides with the becoming of the World-state, thus to understand the lawfulness through which our states evolve, we have to understand ourselves in the context of the whole Cosmos. As long as we see our Cosmic vicinity as some kind of independent arena, into which our self-sufficient spiritual being is placed, as if dropped from another galaxy, we still live in abstract mental images. We haven’t yet found our true bearings within reality. The World is still outside us, as an alien and even hostile environment that we temporarily visit but which has nothing to do with the structure of our own self-contained being.

To this point we agree. Let’s put the above into a commonly used image in esoterism – that our present Earthly state resembles life below a thick dark atmosphere. Think of an approaching thunderstorm, how it becomes dark even if in the middle of the day.

This is an image for our spiritual constitution. Man is a slice of this environment. The light of consciousness enters the thick cloudy environment from beyond, from the Sun illuminated world above the clouds. Of course, here ‘above’ and ‘below’ should be taken Imaginatively. We have already established that everything is within everything. Thus to find the Sun light in a spiritual sense, we don’t move linearly in some direction but through an inner dimension, so to speak.

In my opinion, the metaphors that are least misleading and which can be seen as an almost literal expression of higher experiences are those that have been mentioned many times here. For example, that the flow of our Earthly states can be seen as a stroboscopic effect. Our ‘rate of vibration’ is such that we ‘sample’ the full spectrum of reality only at a certain resolution, giving us an aliased experience, which nevertheless is fully valid and turns into a world on its own. Through reflection, concentration, meditation, prayer, we can become conscious of the deeper strata, which gives us deeper intuition of the World-flow and correspondingly novel ways in which we can steer that flow. In this sense we can say that the light of our Sun being above the clouds (or beneath the aliased patterns) can penetrate the thick dark atmosphere from within.

To this you also agree, since you accept that we’re not really separate from the essence of our being. Yet something peculiar happens at this point which turns everything that has been so logically and lawfully developed so far, on its head.

It is said “There’s nothing more to learn here. It’s only darkness upon darkness and I’m ready to continue towards the world of light and freedom.” And this is perfectly fine! It is only natural to come to the realization that we can’t go too far when we only rearrange the mental images of dark clouds (the dual world). We have to move in a direction orthogonal to all this (the nondual world).

Now we’re at the point that we reach every time. Suddenly one declares there’s nothing more that can be accomplished in this state and one focuses on the general truth that we’re the light, even if it is diffused within the dark clouds beyond recognition. Then one is left with no choice but bathe in this diffused and inexplicable light while awaiting death where the lifting to the world of clear Sun light and freedom is expected. There’s a certain orthogonality between planar thoughts in dark puffs of cloud and the inexplicable Sun nature. The two natures speak different languages so to speak. The lower planar nature is seen as hindrance that can be overcome only by leaving it behind through death. In a sense one says “I know with all my being that the light-force through which I think is inseparable from the Source. Yet this thinking is diffused in dark clouds. This dark atmosphere suffocates me and prevents me from knowing the fuller nature of my being. I have nothing more to learn in this darkness. I have to elevate to the more ethereal regions where I’ll live in my higher being.”

Yet for thousands of years the development of the human being has led to the point that the light of the nondual higher being can penetrate the dark atmosphere (as explained above). This has one major difference to the meditation on the diffused light within the clouds – that an actual bridge is being built between the nondual Light being and the lower being that arranges dark puffs of clouds. This can be known only when we reach the stage of Inspired cognition. Then our being is lifted within the splendor of the archetypal currents and we can trace how they inflow into the darker lower being, where they align the mental images in resonance with the higher forces.

We can put that into another metaphor. Let’s say our Earthly state is like a sheet of paper covered with iron filings corresponding to spiritual phenomena, most importantly – thoughts. For most people, the shapes of the filings metamorphose quite instinctively. Yet we can imagine that certain magnetic fields work across the sheet and arrange the filings. In the course of the last few posts we have seen that there’s certain lawfulness of the magnetic forces into which we can consciously grow and understand the deeper patterns of the World-state’s becoming.

To this we have two positions. One says that once we realize the nature of the sheet of paper with iron filings, we can only go further by dreaming to become the higher magnetic forces after death. On Earth we can bathe in these forces, mystically unite with them but they remain orthogonal to the world of the sheet. It’s simply impossible for these forces to be known as clear light of cognition. The conditions are unfavorable.

The other says what proceeds as a completely logical stream – that by making the movements of the iron filings a living experience we come to know something of the magnetic force (this is not surprising granted that the magnetic force is our true essence). Then through the appropriate methods of meditative concentration our cognitive being begins to awaken within the depth aspect and understand the magnetic force not as some mysterious force whose true nature can be expected only after death but as real intuitive activity of the Cosmos which we experience from the first-person perspective. Then we can say that when living in this depth aspect, we live in Inspirative cognition because we can follow the archetypal magnetic flows (the nondual world) that organize the iron filings. With this the orthogonality is reconciled. Our being now lives along the gradient of the worlds in one unitary Cosmos. Our nondual being reaches into the sheet and cognitively organizes the filings.

These same things have been stated many many times. Yet they are always rejected. To put it bluntly, the whole situation can be presented thus. Let’s say scientists live on an Earth, which similarly to Venus, is covered in a permanent dark cloud layer. Both camps agree that the true source of light is not the clouds themselves but that they only diffuse it.

One camp says “this is the nondual truth – we are the light of the world. Yet we’re in very unfavorable conditions. The clouds of the Demiurge diffuse our light and we can’t know ourselves in our pristine nondual nature. Our scattered light is completely orthogonal to the light of our true being above the clouds and we have no chance to know full reality in this way. Everything is smoke and mirrors. We need to patiently wait for death where we’ll know ourselves in the clear skies above the clouds.”

The other camp says “We agree that the conditions are difficult. It is true that the diffused reflections are highly confusing but it’s still true that the light itself comes from above the clouds. And our essential being is that light. Thus even through normal reasoning it follows that it should be possible to concentrate our spiritual activity in such a way that we can live in the cognitive floods of light and not so much in the diffused reflections. Indeed, the efforts of initiates through the centuries have perfected the methods for this inner organization and today it is possible for everyone to pave the way for the Light being.”

So to put it really bluntly, the first camp says “Yes, we’re the light but the most we can do within the thick dark atmosphere is to hold on to the intuition that we are indeed the light and await for that intuition to become clear spiritual existence only after death.” The second says “It is possible to investigate the light being even now. In this way we live in both worlds. So to speak, our head is above the clouds where we live in clear cognition of the spiritual (nondual) worlds, while our guts are down below and we use our higher intuition to guide them.”

The main reason that the first camp dismisses the second, is somewhat the following: “what you develop as intuition has to do only with the realm of the Demiurge (the dark cloud layer). Even though you speak of going above the clouds, you are really working with false light. This doesn’t mean that this intuition is completely useless but if we want to aim for the true light we can only do that by focusing on the inexplicable nondual light that diffuses in the clouds and hold on to the intuition that this light will be our being after death. In other words, I recognize that the diffused light in the clouds is a reflection of my true light but as long as I live under the clouds I can only cherish the expectation for the true light. It’s impossible to concentrate the diffused clouds and awaken to my true light that steers them. For this reason, anyone who believes to have developed intuition of the configuration spaces of their true light being must necessarily be confused. They live in the diffused light reflections and delude themselves that they know something about their true light being in this way.”

Now if we speak about science what is more wise? To stay under the clouds and only fantasize about the Solar world above, assuming that it is impossible for man to know it in its reality? Or to seek ways to rise above the clouds and from there build channels through the thick layers such that light can begin to flood the underworld? Who has truer and more practical knowledge of reality? Who has postulated their own limitations and have accepted them for absolute laws of reality? And who keeps overcoming obstacles which leads to expansion of reality?

As simple as it is, the above summarizes the whole thing. The so called ‘nondual switchover’ proves to be nothing but saying “I’ve had enough of these dual clouds. From now on I’ll live in the faith that after death I’ll be free in the clear Sun world. Now I have switched to nondual. Anyone who claims that our Sun being can shine in its true light down here, is deluded. They are even more deluded if they believe that the Sun being has to warm and soften the rigid forms below, make them pliable and organize them according to higher wisdom, propelled by love. Our nondual light being above (Cosmic head) has nothing to do with the dark dual world below (Cosmic guts). If someone wants to explore these regions, they are free to do so but those who have had enough of them can simply move on. The Cosmic head is independent of the Cosmic guts. The latter can be left behind.”

Would you agree with such characterization?
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Re: The realm of the Demiurge

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Cleric K wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:35 pm So to put it really bluntly, the first camp says “Yes, we’re the light but the most we can do within the thick dark atmosphere is to hold on to the intuition that we are indeed the light and await for that intuition to become clear spiritual existence only after death.” The second says “It is possible to investigate the light being even now. In this way we live in both worlds. So to speak, our head is above the clouds where we live in clear cognition of the spiritual (nondual) worlds, while our guts are down below and we use our higher intuition to guide them.”
Cleric, we are going in circles again. I always said that it is indeed fully possible “to investigate the light being even now”. However, there is a natural limit to the development into the nondual mode while staying in the human nature. I can offer another analogy: the metamorphosis of butterflies, where the caterpillar is an analogy of human in the dualistic mode, pupa is a transitional state where both modes coexist, and butterfly is the existence in the nondual mode where all remainders of the caterpillar organism and the shell of the pupa are shed. The organism of the caterpillar while in the pupa stage undergoes a complete metamorphosis with restructuring of all its organs. For the butterfly to have any residuals of the caterpillar body would be a useless hindrance and atavism in its butterfly mode of existence.

So, there are two choices for a soul after “breaking through the clouds" of the dualistic state:
- To remain returning into the human form and living in a double-mode where “our guts are down below and we use our higher intuition to guide them”. As I said, it is extremely confusing and inefficient mode of being with slow and hindered evolution. Every reincarnation will cause a complete loss of the knowledge of the nondual mode and put the soul back into the genetically and culturally programmed dualistic mode, and it will take many decades to restore the lost nondual state, with a good chance no even to restore it at all if conditions are not favorable. If any heroes still see any value in such mode of existence, then sure, they can continue doing that. Using the metamorphosis analogy, this means becoming stuck in the caterpillar-pupa cycle forever and never proceeding to the butterfly mode.
- To go through the metamorphosis smoothly and naturally, and after completing the pupa stage, release into the butterfly mode, in other words, not returning to the human form after sufficiently maturing in the nondual state.

St. Paul said it all eloquently, where the by “living sin” he refers to the human nature and "body subject to death" he refers to the "death" of the dualistic state:
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
St. Paul, Romans 7

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known

1 Corinthians 13
Now, going back to the Demiurge, of course he wants to keep the souls in his domain and convince them to stay using whatever arguments he can find, just like a Casino managers want their clients to stay and return. One of his arguments is that there is a spiritual progress and evolution in the dualistic domain, and that in this domain coexisting in both dualistic and nondual modes are possible and natural ("You can continue playing in our Casion and still be a good man!"). I can only say that the entire dualistic domain, its structure and content, is a big lie, it’s a hoax, because the dualistic perception on which this domain is built is a fundamental lie, so it is not surprising that all Demiurge’s arguments are essentially lies. The problem to recognize them as lies is that they are cleverly formulated and presented as truth-sounding, so a good amount of discernment and spiritual maturity is needed to see the lie in these true-sounding arguments. But the discernment becomes easier once we understand his main motivation to retain souls in his domain. “There is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it.” (John 8:44)

Again, this all will remain only an intellectual argumentation until we can experientially know the nondual state. Only when this happens, it becomes experientially obvious how incompatible the dualistic and nondual modes are, and how deluded, hindering and useless is the dualistic one for the spiritual development. The dualistic mode is a spiritual decease that young souls usually get infected with on their evolutionary path, and the only usefulness of experiencing it is to obtain immunity from it so that they can completely heal from it and never get sick again. Living in a half-sick/half-healthy mode would be going into a chronic mode of a decease instead of healing from it completely.
"You are not a drop in the ocean, you are the ocean in a drop" Rumi
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