The realm of the Demiurge

[AshvinP]

This person who imagines the cup coming back together could be called 'insane' if he mistakes the isolated imagination for the actual World-state, which means he is implicitly treating them as orthogonal. The act of imagination itself is part of the evolving World-state and does not constitute insanity of its own accord. We only develop 'spiritual insanity' if we idolize our isolated dualistic perception and confuse it for the actual World-state, without realizing there are many other lawful relations at work in which our imagination of the cup coming back together is constrained from making the cup come back together. It only develops if we say, 'either my act of imagination is part of the World-state or the cup is shattered, but it can't be both at the same time'.

But that is exactly how the majority of people perceive the world: they indeed mistake and idolize as true the isolated imagination for the actual World-state and confuse it for the actual World-state, that is exactly what the dualistic insanity is. It is true that the sane state is contained in the actual World-state as a lawful state, and that is exactly why the recovery is possible. But, as I said many times, the "orthogonality" simply means that a person cannot simultaneously hold the isolated imagination as the actual World-state as true, and at the same time hold the wholistic perception of the Oneness as the actual World-state as true. They logically contradict each other. It is the same as one cannot simultaneously be a materialist and idealist as these worldviews are incompatible and contradict each other. You probably see a different meaning in the term "orthogonality" and that is why we are arguing here.

Heindel , Max. The Rosicrucian Cosmo Conception (Illustrated) (pp. 164-165). Kindle Edition.

OK than, Rosicrucian believed in reincarnation into humans, as well as Anthroposophists, but that is against the Nicene Creed. I consider any sect which faith does not comply with the Nicene Creed to be not Christian (at least in a full sense).

Also, not that this really matters, but on the term 'Demiurge':

Yes, the term was adopted from Greek mythology, but the term does not really matter, it's the actual spiritual reality that matters. Christians called him "Satan". The real difference between Christian and Gnostic views is that Gnostics believed that the Demiurge actually created the material world (so the material world is irreparably corrupted) while Christians believed that the true God created material world as "good" but it was corrupted by the actions of Satan and the fall of Adam and remains to be corrupted and under the rule of Satan until the second coming of Christ (re. Apocalypses and the quotes from Gospels and Epistles that I gave).

Why does it matter how the majority of people think or what the creeds say? What relevance does this have to whether the nondual being can progressively experience itself within the lawful constraints and thereby progressively unveil its leeway of becoming within those constraints? Those things only have relevance to someone who has idolized the exoteric forms. Then you say, the exoteric form of how 'majority of people think' dictates the conclusion that we are in a Demiurgic realm, or the exoteric form of the Nicene creed dictates the conclusion that anyone who disagrees is not 'Christian' (also remember your original point was that reincarnation, spiritual progress, and transfiguration of the dense body is nowhere to be found in esoteric tradition,"leaving aside all exoteric traditions").

This whole exoteric vs. esoteric duality falls away if we "self-remember while we think and believe", as Cleric put it. Then we don't end up convincing ourselves that we are doing something differently than the majority of people when we derive absolute conclusions from how we currently perceive the world in abstract thought. That the nondual and dual states are orthogonal, separate, or whatever only exists in abstract thought which experientially isolates one from the other. The same holds for worldviews like materialism and idealism - the interwoven reality of matter and idea is only separated in abstract thought. And actually people who do this abstract separation then continually oscillate between inclination towards one or the other in their inward and outward lives. The solution is simple - inwardly investigate the contours of the very activity which does this abstract separation. Then everything material and dual and exoteric begins to be seen in its depth of spiritual, nondual, esoteric Light. That inward investigation is exactly what Cleric has been presenting on this thread and has so far been completely avoided by dint of "agreement".

[Stranger]

Why does it matter how the majority of people think or what the creeds say? What relevance does this have to whether the nondual being can progressively experience itself within the lawful constraints and thereby progressively unveil its leeway of becoming within those constraints? Those things only have relevance to someone who has idolized the exoteric forms.

It matters because we are discussing here the evolutionary path of the humanity as a whole, and not just of a few spiritually advanced individuals, and the humanity as a whole is currently stuck in the dualistic insanity which is the esoteric root cause of all its exoteric problems.

The key is to develop spiritual discernment and experiential knowledge of nondual state and study both ancient traditions and modern research evidences pointing to the reality of spiritual forces that, according to the Christian scriptures, are "the rulers, the authorities, the cosmic powers over this present darkness, forces of evil in the heavenly places" "masquerading as angels of light" and maintaining the current soul recycling system with memory wipes in order to impede the spiritual progress of souls captured in this system and their recovery from dualistic insanity. It does not matter what names we use for these rulers, it's the actual state of affairs that matters here. Also, studying the laws governing the composition of current human structure also helps to reveal how this control system is functioning. But when we connect with the "higher beings" to acquire "higher knowledge" from them, we need to be very discerning and careful to make sure we are not mistaken these "forces of darkness" for the "angels of light". It would be very naive to accept any "higher-order beings" we come in contact with as belonging to the true Divine hierarchy. Also, the hierarchy of darkness have their own curvatures and lawful structures affecting the development of the human world on both individual and collective levels. Again, we need to exercise the discernment to recognize the curvatures we choose to follow as coming from the Divine hierarchy or from the "hierarchy of rulers".

This whole exoteric vs. esoteric duality falls away if we "self-remember while we think and believe", as Cleric put it. Then we don't end up convincing ourselves that we are doing something differently than the majority of people when we derive absolute conclusions from how we currently perceive the world in abstract thought. That the nondual and dual states are orthogonal, separate, or whatever only exists in abstract thought which experientially isolates one from the other. The same holds for worldviews like materialism and idealism - the interwoven reality of matter and idea is only separated in abstract thought. And actually people who do this abstract separation then continually oscillate between inclination towards one or the other in their inward and outward lives. The solution is simple - inwardly investigate the contours of the very activity which does this abstract separation. Then everything material and dual and exoteric begins to be seen in its depth of spiritual, nondual, esoteric Light. That inward investigation is exactly what Cleric has been presenting on this thread and has so far been completely avoided by dint of "agreement".

To say it simple and to conclude, each of us needs to recover from dualistic state of mind and reach to the nondual one AND also study and understand the laws governing the composition, structures and developmental curvatures of forms. These two aspects complement each other. As regards to the choice of incarnating or not into the human form, we should leave it for a discernment and free choice of each soul. At the current state of knowledge this subject remains controversial.

[AshvinP]

Why does it matter how the majority of people think or what the creeds say? What relevance does this have to whether the nondual being can progressively experience itself within the lawful constraints and thereby progressively unveil its leeway of becoming within those constraints? Those things only have relevance to someone who has idolized the exoteric forms.

It matters because we are discussing here the evolutionary path of the humanity as a whole, and not just of a few spiritually advanced individuals, and the humanity as a whole is currently stuck in the dualistic insanity which is the esoteric root cause of all its exoteric problems.

Then it's exactly as Cleric said before - you don't want to lift a finger to change the inward situation of the dualistic self until you see everyone else is doing it, even though the evolutionary path of humanity has always been inaugurated and foreshadowed by that of a few 'spiritually advanced individuals'. Not only that, you want to justify the ignorance and inaction by setting up abstract realm of 'hierarchy of rulers' who have their own separate curvatures and lawful structures from the hierarchy of Light. It's remarkable at this point how you still miss the orthogonality implicit in everything you are concluding. In the meantime, the real forces of darkness are exactly the ones which work within our soul-life to conjure up speculations and theories that only serve to justify the ignorance and inaction. That is what they feast on and right now you are serving up a banquet.

[Federica]

I think one question you could ask yourself (meditate on), Eugene, is the real (profound) reason why you came back to the forum in disguise, a few weeks ago, and how it connects to this current third appearance.

OK, myself is not around right now but when he comes back I'll ask him

Yes, do it, Eugene. And when you catch him, also don’t forget to add that - even if he’s been orthogonal to truth on this forum, and even if he still ignores the reason he’s coming back here, again and again, doing what he’s doing in this very moment - tell him it’s OK, you know why, and you accept him as part of yourself, so he can direct his spiritual impulse to shed the light of true, reintegrating knowledge on the Earthly states he’s suffering from.

[Stranger]

Then it's exactly as Cleric said before - you don't want to lift a finger to change the inward situation of the dualistic self until you see everyone else is doing it, even though the evolutionary path of humanity has always been inaugurated and foreshadowed by that of a few 'spiritually advanced individuals'.

I was the one on this forum that have always been witnessing and advocating for the nondual state as the actual experiential first-person true state of consciousness while you and Cleric have been fiercely opposing and criticizing nonduality. Then, after being presented with undeniable evidences and quotes from Gospels and Christian tradition pointing to the truth of nonduality, you suddenly changed you position (which is great!) and now accuse me for "not lifting a finger to change the inward situation of the dualistic self". But I don't mind, for me it's not personal

It is correct that "the evolutionary path of humanity has always been inaugurated and foreshadowed by that of a few 'spiritually advanced individuals'".

[Stranger]

Yes, do it, Eugene. And when you catch him, also don’t forget to add that - even if he’s been orthogonal to truth on this forum, and even if he still ignores the reason he’s coming back here, again and again, doing what he’s doing in this very moment

The reason I keep coming to this forum is to be a witness of the Oneness, of the true nondual state of consciousness, to help people to wake up to the truth of nonduality. The reason I came under a different username is to present nonduality in this topic objectively without personal biases so that people could look at what is being presented, not from whom it is presented (considering the long history of heated debates and personal labelings on this forum). After I saw that the material itself was accepted, I let people know who I was. I was actually not sure if it was the right thing to do or not, and if you think it was not, then I apologize.

[AshvinP]

Then it's exactly as Cleric said before - you don't want to lift a finger to change the inward situation of the dualistic self until you see everyone else is doing it, even though the evolutionary path of humanity has always been inaugurated and foreshadowed by that of a few 'spiritually advanced individuals'.

I was the one on this forum that have always been witnessing and advocating for the nondual state as the actual experiential first-person true state of consciousness while you and Cleric have been fiercely opposing and criticizing nonduality. Then, after being presented with undeniable evidences and quotes from Gospels and Christian tradition pointing to the truth of nonduality, you suddenly changed you position and now accuse me for "not lifting a finger to change the inward situation of the dualistic self". But I don't mind, for me it's not personal

It is correct that "the evolutionary path of humanity has always been inaugurated and foreshadowed by that of a few 'spiritually advanced individuals'".

Let's take a very straightforward example which can be concretely ascertained from imaginative esoteric practice.


https://rsarchive.org/Books/GA010/Engli ... 2.html#001

As a further exercise to succeed the one just described, the following may be taken: Let the student place before him a plant which has attained the stage of full development. Now let him fill his mind with the thought that the time will come when this plant will wither and die. “Nothing will be left of what I now see before me. But this plant will have developed seeds which, in their turn, will develop to new plants. I again become aware that in what I see, something lies hidden which I cannot see. I fill my mind entirely with the thought: this plant with its form and colors, will in time be no more. But the reflection that it produces seeds teaches me that it will not disappear into nothing. I cannot at present see with my eyes that which guards it from disappearance, any more than I previously could discern the plant in the grain of seed. Thus there is something in the plant which my eyes cannot see. If I let this thought live within me, and if the corresponding feeling be coupled with it, then, in due time, there will again develop in my soul a force which will ripen into a new perception.” Out of the plant there again grows a kind of spiritual flame-form, which is, of course, correspondingly larger than the one previously described. The flame can be felt as being greenish-blue in the center, and yellowish-red at the outer edge.
...
Anyone having reached this point of spiritual vision is the richer by a great deal, for he can perceive things not only in their present state of being but also in their process of growth and decay. He begins to see in all things the spirit, of which physical eyes can know nothing. And therewith he has taken the first step toward the gradual solution, through personal vision, of the secret of birth and death. For the outer senses a being comes into existence through birth, and passes away through death. This, however, is only because these senses cannot perceive the concealed spirit of the being. For the spirit, birth and death are merely a transformation, just as the unfolding of the flower from the bud is a transformation enacted before our physical eyes. But if we desire to learn this through personal vision we must first awaken the requisite spiritual sense in the way here indicated.

Here it should already become apparent that the states which seem, to our normal incarnate self, to be most orthogonal to each other - life and death - are completely interwoven. Simultaneous with the sensory process of decay and death there is a supra-sensory process of spritiual upbuilding which will result in new life. These are actual concrete realities which can be discerned through imaginative perception. Anyone who reaches this stage will no longer abide by abstract reflections which hold the living (dual) and the dead (nondual) orthogonal, and views them at mutually exclusive odds with one another. They will indeed perceive the living existing right alongside the dying, the new life existing right alongside the dead. They will not speak of one as the 'true state' and the other as the 'false state', the 'false light', the 'Demiurgic realm', or anything similar. Because to do that would be to ignore the fact that one state/process is only intelligibe in light of the other. As Cleric also put it,

C'mon people, if we focus only on the nondual state, we can't even rule out materialism! There's nothing special in the ability of the brain to electrically feedback its own states. Thus all that self-remembrance, in itself, can't even give us the certainty whether there's spiritual depth to reality or we're simply a mechanical brain that has become mesmerized by its ability to self-remember itself and has decided that all else pales into comparison. In that case, the celebrated inexplicability (orthogonality) of the nondual state might easily be just a brain on the brink of losing cognitive coherency.

We only attain to a nondual realization, which is actually deserving of that name, when we experientially discern that spiritual reality only makes holistic sense as an ever-evolving Unity of states of becoming, rhythmically alternating between inner WFT forces and outer manifestations of those forces which continuously feedback into their perfection. This applies across all scales from our daily thought-cycles, to our wake-sleep cycle, to our Earthly reincarnations, and to Cosmic manifestation as a whole. If we haven't yet discerned this in its fullness, and none of us have, then it means we have further inner work to do right here on Earth, right here during this incarnation. And only after death will we be in the most optimal position to know what sort of further work is necessary and how it should be carried out.

[Cleric K]

I was the one on this forum that have always been witnessing and advocating for the nondual state as the actual experiential first-person true state of consciousness while you and Cleric have been fiercely opposing and criticizing nonduality. Then, after being presented with undeniable evidences and quotes from Gospels and Christian tradition pointing to the truth of nonduality, you suddenly changed you position and now accuse me for "not lifting a finger to change the inward situation of the dualistic self".

It is correct that "the evolutionary path of humanity has always been inaugurated and foreshadowed by that of a few 'spiritually advanced individuals'".

The criticism to "nonduality" (in quotes) has been reiterated in my last post. I think your position can be summarized like this:

1. Our consciousness exists in the Earthly sphere, which is ruled by adversarial forces.
2. It is possible to 'step out of the movie' and sense that our true (nondual) being belongs to a wider reality but is forced to snap to the quantized Earthly states.
3. The form of cognition of the nondual being is considered incompatible with the cognitive flow within the Earthly state.
4. For this reason there's a boundary between [for simplicity let's call them] this and the other world. Our intellectual self can only asymptotically approach the experience of the self that lives in the other world because all Earthly cognition collapses at the threshold.
5. Thus all we can do is spread the word about our nondual being and continue our development in the other world after death, since the musical attunement of Earthly man to Cosmic man, is considered neither possible (by us), nor any of our business.

This sums up the whole philosophy. This is the reason that anything we try to say about the musical attunement of the spheres and thus consciousness encompassing the Cosmic gradient, is simply ignored. It simply contradicts the preconceived axioms. It's said "There's nothing wrong with trying to make that bridge but anything that you accomplish is still in the realm of Earthly consciousness (it's only dual mental images). So you're still missing the nondual aspect, you still don't realize that part of your being that belongs to the reality beyond the Earthly matrix."

Consider a statement like this: "I don't think that you or anyone else - past or future - can cross the threshold of nonduality that separates us from the other world. Thus by definition I consider that anything you say necessarily exists as nothing but intellectual theory within the matrix of Earthly consciousness, which misses the asymptotic experience of the other world. If such bridging of the worlds is possible it's certainly not yet its time. Christian esoterism may be a preparation for this bridging but it still hasn't grasped the nondual aspect, let alone develop clear consciousness across the threshold."

Would you agree that this sums up your position?

[Stranger]

Here it should already become apparent that the states which seem, to our normal incarnate self, to be most orthogonal to each other - life and death - are completely interwoven. Simultaneous with the sensory process of decay and death there is a supra-sensory process of spritiual upbuilding which will result in new life. These are actual concrete realities which can be discerned through imaginative perception. Anyone who reaches this stage will no longer abide by abstract reflections which hold the living (dual) and the dead (nondual) orthogonal, and views them at mutually exclusive odds with one another. They will indeed perceive the living existing right alongside the dying, the new life existing right alongside the dead. They will not speak of one as the 'true state' and the other as the 'false state', the 'false light', the 'Demiurgic realm', or anything similar. Because to do that would be to ignore the fact that one state/process is only intelligibe in light of the other. As Cleric also put it,

We only attain to a nondual realization, which is actually deserving of that name, when we experientially discern that spiritual reality only makes holistic sense as an ever-evolving Unity of states of becoming, rhythmically alternating between inner WFT forces and outer manifestations of those forces which continuously feedback into their perfection. This applies across all scales from our daily thought-cycles, to our wake-sleep cycle, to our Earthly reincarnations, and to Cosmic manifestation as a whole. If we haven't yet discerned this in its fullness, and none of us have, then it means we have further inner work to do right here on Earth, right here during this incarnation.

The issue here is that you are confusing the "polarity of dual vs nondual" with the only actual state of the World - the nondual one which has no opposite polarity. The Oneness has no polarity, it is the only state of reality and of realized truth as it actually is. The duality is not the opposite polarity to oneness, but simply a confused and deluded state of mind mistaking its imagination for reality. It is lawful, it can occur, it occurs along the course of evolution of humans, but it is totally redundant. The nondual is the actual (not abstract but experiential) living and sane state of mind. All the dynamics of development is possible perfectly without this confusion and "seeming" polarity, without the duality being involved, and it indeed happens in beings abiding in the living nondual state while continuing their active spiritual evolution. However, it is still useful to experience the dualistic state only in order to acquire immunity to it. The fact that you call the nondual state as "dead" means that you completely misunderstand it as experiential reality.

If remaining in the dynamics of the "dual-nondual polarity" would be the actual reality of the evolution as you claim, Christ would not say "I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one—as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me." John 17:21 Christ did not ask us to remain within the "dynamics of dual-nondual polarity", but he asked us to abandon the corrupted state of duality and remain in the only true state - the state of Oneness with him and the Father. Christ asked us to "repent", and the word for "repent" in the original Greek is "metanoia" which means "change of the state of mind" (from confused dualistic state to the experiential knowledge of the actual true state of the World - the Oneness).

Darkness is not a polarity of the Divine Light. The Divine Light is the only thing that actually exists in its primordial state of Oneness and experiential Self-Knowledge, and the whole World is made of this Light only. "Darkness" has no existential reality whatsoever. "Darkness" is simply a confused dualistic state of mind mistaking the Light for something else in its own imagination.

God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all. (1 John 1:5)

But because the dualistic state is the foundation for the structures of the "hierarchies" in the dualistic realm, the hierarchies are interested in defending this state as necessary and legitimate and finding convincing arguments to convince souls to remain in the dualistic state under their rule as if remaining in this dynamics "dual-nondual polarity" is necessary for continuing their evolution. This is where the spiritual discernment is necessary.

[AshvinP]

Here it should already become apparent that the states which seem, to our normal incarnate self, to be most orthogonal to each other - life and death - are completely interwoven. Simultaneous with the sensory process of decay and death there is a supra-sensory process of spritiual upbuilding which will result in new life. These are actual concrete realities which can be discerned through imaginative perception. Anyone who reaches this stage will no longer abide by abstract reflections which hold the living (dual) and the dead (nondual) orthogonal, and views them at mutually exclusive odds with one another. They will indeed perceive the living existing right alongside the dying, the new life existing right alongside the dead. They will not speak of one as the 'true state' and the other as the 'false state', the 'false light', the 'Demiurgic realm', or anything similar. Because to do that would be to ignore the fact that one state/process is only intelligibe in light of the other. As Cleric also put it,

We only attain to a nondual realization, which is actually deserving of that name, when we experientially discern that spiritual reality only makes holistic sense as an ever-evolving Unity of states of becoming, rhythmically alternating between inner WFT forces and outer manifestations of those forces which continuously feedback into their perfection. This applies across all scales from our daily thought-cycles, to our wake-sleep cycle, to our Earthly reincarnations, and to Cosmic manifestation as a whole. If we haven't yet discerned this in its fullness, and none of us have, then it means we have further inner work to do right here on Earth, right here during this incarnation.

The issue here is that you are confusing the "polarity of dual vs nondual" with the only actual state of the World - the nondual one which has no opposite polarity. The Oneness has no polarity, it is the only state of reality and of realized truth as it actually is. The duality is not the opposite polarity to oneness, but simply a confused and deluded state of mind mistaking its imagination for reality. It is lawful, it can occur, it occurs along the course of evolution of humans, but it is totally redundant. The nondual is the actual (not abstract but experiential) living and sane state of mind. All the dynamics of development is possible perfectly without this confusion and "seeming" polarity, without the duality being involved, and it indeed happens in beings abiding in the living nondual state while continuing their active spiritual evolution. However, it is still useful to experience the dualistic state only in order to acquire immunity to it. The fact that you call the nondual state as "dead" means that you completely misunderstand it as experiential reality.

If remaining in the dynamics of the "dual-nondual polarity" would be the actual reality of the evolution as you claim, Christ would not say "I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one—as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me." John 17:21 Christ did not ask us to remain within the "dynamics of dual-nondual polarity", but he asked us to abandon the corrupted state of duality and remain in the only true state - the state of Oneness with him and the Father. Christ asked us to "repent", and the word for "repent" in the original Greek is "metanoia" which means "change of the state of mind" (from confused dualistic state to the experiential knowledge of the actual true state of the World - the Oneness).

Darkness is not a polarity of the Divine Light. The Divine Light is the only thing that actually exists in its primordial state of Oneness and experiential Self-Knowledge, and the whole World is made of this Light only. "Darkness" has no existential reality whatsoever. "Darkness" is simply a confused dualistic state of mind mistaking the Light for something else in its own imagination.

God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all. (1 John 1:5)

But because the dualistic state is the foundation for the structures of the "hierarchies" in the dualistic realm, the hierarchies are interested in defending this state as necessary and legitimate and finding convincing arguments to convince souls to remain in the dualistic state under their rule as if remaining in this dynamics "dual-nondual polarity" is necessary for continuing their evolution. This is where the spiritual discernment is necessary.

For purposes of that analogy, I should have compared the 'nondual' pole with the supra-sensory living process. Although we generally associate the experience of Earthly corporeal life with the dual and the post-death incorporeal with the nondual, so it works both ways.

What you write above basically sums up the whole thing. You fail to discern the polar nature of existential reality because you are analyzing it with your dualistic intellect. If you had attained to imaginative perception, where the content of all the abstract reflections lose their ontological meaning, then there would no longer be any question that the One reality evolves holistically as a rythmic alternation between the poles at various scale-depths of convolution. This is the stream of becoming which Cleric illustrated that is applicable at all scales, levels, depths, etc. of reality, dual or nondual, corporeal or incorporeal, or whatever else, it doesn't matter - it always applies. If you simply took the time and interest to carefully read over what Cleric was actually writing, then you either would not have written what you wrote above or you would have "disagreed" with all those illustrations and explained why.

As it stands, your view is exactly a mirror image of the dualistic and exoteric Christian understanding where darkness, evil, earthly manifestation, etc. is simply a privation of light and good and the unmanifest Divine. It is like a water bottle that is filled with water (darkness) and our task is to simply realize this fact and wait passively until someone or something else after death takes away all the water or reveals there is actually no water in the bottle. The only difference is you have made the Serpent in Eden into the 'true light' and the Elohim into the 'false light'. Western esoteric understanding has advanced beyond this dualistic mindset for many centuries now, and every individual is now in a position to make this clear to themselves. But as we keep pointing out, the dualistic intellect will keep cherry-picking only those texts and data points which support its preconceived prejudices and ignore all others, until it finally endeavors to experience the force of its own inward reality which is of a polar rhythmic nature.

That is, until it experientially discovers the second member of the Trinity, which is none other than its own essential soul-life, who is always present and mediating between the poles of unmanifest and manifest, and is therefore responsible for progressively bringing the forces of the former into the latter.