The realm of the Demiurge

[AshvinP]

PS:
- So, in all Gospels (canonical and Gnostic) and in all Christian tradition it has never been mentioned that human souls are supposed to keep reincarnating back to human form. This would only be possible after the second coming of Christ where he would restore the human nature (from the fallen dualistic and egoic state of consciousness), release it from the rule of "the prince of this world" and establish the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.
- In the Buddhist and Hindu traditions reincarnation is confirmed, but only to reveal that the purpose of the spiritual path for humans is to free from the endless cycle of reincarnating back to humans.

Now, Steiner comes and combines both traditions in a weird way by claiming that reincarnation is real but human souls are supposed to keep reincarnating back into humans (and into corrupted human nature with its inherited dualistic and egoic state of consciousness) and keep slowly evolving under the guidance of discarnate "hierarchies" residing in the "heavenly places" with no way to leave this cycle of reincarnation. Heck, this is obviously a Demiurge's scam.

Why do you keep avoiding Cleric's questions about the blatant contradiction in your thinking? It's because you ignore the role of thinking in spiritual inquiry, cementing the Kantian discontinuity between the sensory and supra-sensory (since thinking is always what mediates between them), that you project your desire-fueled method onto everyone else. When a person can only think in triangles, everything looks like a triangle. Speaking of what we are "supposed" to do in this regard is as senseless as saying a cardiac surgeon is supposed to open the chest before performing surgery, but can choose not to.

Steiner is not telling human souls that they are supposed to reincarnate instead of floating off into the pure abodes whenever their prideful ego feels like it has reached maximum development. He and many others are showing to our ordinary reasoning cognition why the latter is pure nonsense, like a heart surgeon preferring to do open heart surgery without ever lifting his scalpel. It just doesn't make any logical sense. We can't understand the tiniest bit of natural science, human history and human culture, as it has metamorphosed through aeons, without also understanding the Karmic laws which express themselves through reincarnation. We can't decide to abadon the Earth and float off whenever our intellectual ego feels like it has fulfilled its Karma. If that was possible, then the Earth evolution would have already vanished into the void a long time ago.

But these simple logical necessities cannot be pointed out to you until you take the very first step in modern intiation which you have so far refused to take - to recognize the reality of your own thinking participation in the world - because it doesn't fit with your egoic desires and preferences. We know that when you say, "I can't describe my nondual perception of the world to anyone else", it's because that nondual perception doesn't exist. There is no need to pretend any further, Eugene.

[Stranger]

Why do you keep avoiding Cleric's questions about the blatant contradiction in your thinking?

I fully answered this in my reply to Cleric. You chose to ignore all the evidences and quotes from Gospels, Christian, Gnostic, Buddhist and Hindu traditions, as well as tons of modern research evidences, supporting the reality of the Demiurge's/Luciferic ("false light") dualistic deception and soul reincarnation system, and instead chose personal attacks on me. As I said, because you have no clue what the nondual state of consciousness is, there is no point of discussing it because you could only interpret it in a perverted way. The only thing I'm suggesting for you: think for yourself - which side are you serving and what destiny are you preparing for yourself?

[AshvinP]

Why do you keep avoiding Cleric's questions about the blatant contradiction in your thinking?

I fully answered this in my reply to Cleric. You chose to ignore all the evidences and quotes from Gospels, Christian, Gnostic, Buddhist and Hindu traditions, as well as tons of modern research evidences, supporting the reality of the Demiurge's/Luciferic ("false light") dualistic deception and soul reincarnation system, and instead chose personal attacks on me. As I said, because you have no clue what the nondual state of consciousness is, there is no point of discussing it because you could only interpret it in a perverted way. The only thing I'm suggesting for you: think for yourself - which side are you serving and what destiny are you preparing for yourself?

You didn't. He asked why you think it's justified to rely on the dualistic perceptual experience of random people on YouTube, without any meditative training and a default materialistic mindset, who are recounting memories of the higher planes from the state of a traumatic near-death experience no less, to build up your spiritual faith, when you keep pointing to that same dualistic perceptual experience as distorting, deceptive, confusing, and one of the main reasons why you desire to no longer incarnate on Earth? This question wasn't answered.

[Cleric K]

PS:
- So, in all Gospels (canonical and Gnostic) and in all Christian tradition it has never been mentioned that human souls are supposed to keep reincarnating back to human form. This would only be possible after the second coming of Christ where he would restore the human nature (from the fallen dualistic and egoic state of consciousness), release it from the rule of "the prince of this world" and establish the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.
- In the Buddhist and Hindu traditions reincarnation is confirmed, but only to reveal that the purpose of the spiritual path for humans is to free from the endless cycle of reincarnating back to humans.

Now, Steiner comes and combines both traditions in a weird way by claiming that reincarnation is real but human souls are supposed to keep reincarnating back into humans (and into corrupted human nature with its inherited dualistic and egoic state of consciousness) and keep slowly evolving under the guidance of discarnate "hierarchies" residing in the "heavenly places" with no way to leave this cycle of reincarnation. Heck, this is obviously a Demiurge's scam.

Eugene, the question about the contradiction, which you gently avoided, was meant to address an important point. We have spoken many times about it. Yes, the Earthly kingdom is corrupted. This is the whole story of the Fall. Eden - a state on the edge of physicality - decohered into a much more mineralized condition because of excessive entanglement driven by desires. There's no question that the human spirit has to be freed. The question is that this freedom has to be sought through a much more comprehensive understanding of reality.

Why is that? Because by refusing to gain deeper understanding of the structure of reality, we unconsciously apply our Earthly conceptions over the whole Cosmos. We naively imagine the different worlds as spatially separated realms of existence, completely orthogonal and independent of each other. In other words, we imagine that if we save ourselves from reincarnating in the Earthly realm, we'll live in a higher form and could quite as well forget about the existence of an Earthly world. We imagine that even if the Earthly plane disappears, this won't affect us in any way. We imagine that it's like living in a progressive country. If on the other side of the globe some third world nation is at war or is destroyed, unless we hear something on the news, we would not even know about it.

But things are much more interrelated in the Cosmos. The Earthly realm is not simply 'some place' that happened to be overrun by dark spirits. The Earthly realm is part of the full spectrum of our Cosmic context. In that sense, the life of higher beings, including those who have achieved Buddhahood, is not independent of the Earthly spectrum. They are not entangled with that spectrum through individual decohered bodies but are entangled Macrocosmically. For them that part of the spectrum is like a common Cosmic body and that body is sick. It's like an open sore that hurts not only incarnated beings but the whole Cosmic context. To put it simply, one can't be 'happy' while the Earthly spectrum is in disorder, even if they live at a higher level of integration. Every bomb, every murder, every lie, reverberate through the higher worlds, since the spiritual parts of Earthly man belong there. This has been said so many times - man is a slice of the full spectrum of reality, of all worlds. We can't look at the worlds as some fully orthogonal and independent floors of existence and Earthly man fitted wholly, as a marble, in one of these floors. Only our physical matter is Earthly. With our feelings, desires, thoughts and ideas we live in the higher worlds. For this reason, when we tell a lie, it spreads as poison through the higher worlds and higher beings breathe this. They suffer because of this. That's why all beings are engaged in this grand evolutionary operation that has to lead to healing and restoration of proper flow between the levels of the spectrum. We don't understand the first thing about Oneness if we imagine that we can go on with our evolution and imagine that the Earthly spectrum will remain only a faint memory. We have no clue about the structure of reality if we imagine that the Earthly spectrum can be incised away and the higher beings wouldn't even notice.

These things can be known here and now. It doesn't even require too much spiritual development to find the reality of this. Even the first steps in unprejudiced experience of our thinking spiritual activity already begins to reveal these facts. The contradiction consists in the fact that we avoid such direct spiritual knowledge on the pretext that it is impossible to know the other floors of existence. So first we presuppose that reality is compartmentalized into completely orthogonal and independent floors of existence. Then we presuppose that our Earthly being can't know anything but its own compartment. Other compartments are experienced but only as inexplicable phenomena which in no way can be connected to the Earthly state. Thus we patch up a story that fits our taste and hold on to it. Then we fall in love with that story and fiercely resist any possibility for genuine knowledge. And this knowledge doesn't even require us to accept some premeditated dogma. It asks only to loosen our presuppositions and start working from the givens of our existence.

[Stranger]

Eugene, the question about the contradiction, which you gently avoided, was meant to address an important point. We have spoken many times about it. Yes, the Earthly kingdom is corrupted. This is the whole story of the Fall. Eden - a state on the edge of physicality - decohered into a much more mineralized condition because of excessive entanglement driven by desires. There's no question that the human spirit has to be freed. The question is that this freedom has to be sought through a much more comprehensive understanding of reality.

Correct

Why is that? Because by refusing to gain deeper understanding of the structure of reality, we unconsciously apply our Earthly conceptions over the whole Cosmos. We naively imagine the different worlds as spatially separated realms of existence, completely orthogonal and independent of each other. In other words, we imagine that if we save ourselves from reincarnating in the Earthly realm, we'll live in a higher form and could quite as well forget about the existence of an Earthly world. We imagine that even if the Earthly plane disappears, this won't affect us in any way. We imagine that it's like living in a progressive country. If on the other side of the globe some third world nation is at war or is destroyed, unless we hear something on the news, we would not even know about it.

But things are much more interrelated in the Cosmos. The Earthly realm is not simply 'some place' that happened to be overrun by dark spirits. The Earthly realm is part of the full spectrum of our Cosmic context. In that sense, the life of higher beings, including those who have achieved Buddhahood, is not independent of the Earthly spectrum. They are not entangled with that spectrum through individual decohered bodies but are entangled Macrocosmically. For them that part of the spectrum is like a common Cosmic body and that body is sick. It's like an open sore that hurts not only incarnated beings but the whole Cosmic context. To put it simply, one can't be 'happy' while the Earthly spectrum is in disorder, even if they live at a higher level of integration. Every bomb, every murder, every lie, reverberate through the higher worlds, since the spiritual parts of Earthly man belong there. This has been said so many times - man is a slice of the full spectrum of reality, of all worlds. We can't look at the worlds as some fully orthogonal and independent floors of existence and Earthly man fitted wholly, as a marble, in one of these floors. Only our physical matter is Earthly. With our feelings, desires, thoughts and ideas we live in the higher worlds. For this reason, when we tell a lie, it spreads as poison through the higher worlds and higher beings breathe this. They suffer because of this. That's why all beings are engaged in this grand evolutionary operation that has to lead to healing and restoration of proper flow between the levels of the spectrum. We don't understand the first thing about Oneness if we imagine that we can go on with our evolution and imagine that the Earthly spectrum will remain only a faint memory. We have no clue about the structure of reality if we imagine that the Earthly spectrum can be incised away and the higher beings wouldn't even notice.

These things can be known here and now. It doesn't even require too much spiritual development to find the reality of this. Even the first steps in unprejudiced experience of our thinking spiritual activity already begins to reveal these facts. The contradiction consists in the fact that we avoid such direct spiritual knowledge on the pretext that it is impossible to know the other floors of existence. So first we presuppose that reality is compartmentalized into completely orthogonal and independent floors of existence. Then we presuppose that our Earthly being can't know anything but its own compartment. Other compartments are experienced but only as inexplicable phenomena which in no way can be connected to the Earthly state. Thus we patch up a story that fits our taste and hold on to it. Then we fall in love with that story and fiercely resist any possibility for genuine knowledge. And this knowledge doesn't even require us to accept some premeditated dogma. It asks only to loosen our presuppositions and start working from the givens of our existence.

Mostly correct, but you keep choosing to ignore one important point: you cannot fully understand the whole Cosmos if you ignore the nondual nature of it. The Cosmos is indeed divided into two large realms and states of consciousness that are orthogonal to each other: a confused and deluded dualistic state which inevitably bears the illusion of separation and inflated ego, and nondualistic state of experiential unity with the Divine and the Cosmos where the functioning of inflated ego is not possible. Of course, there are also states and realms where beings are transitioning from dualistic to nondualistic state, because it takes some time to dismantle dualistic cognitive patterns. The Earth and the astral realms are inhabited mostly by beings in the dualistic states, and they shape their reality in these realms according to their state of mind and desires. In this dualistic domain, because of the egoic state, the hierarchies are systems and structured in a controlling and totalitarian way, both in the earth and astral domains, much like our government systems. All your writings only apply to these dualistic realms, it is all about exploring its structures and processes and meanings and curvatures. Don't get me wrong, this does not mean that the dualistic realm and all its inhabitants is all darkness and evil, not at all. There are plenty of good and kind people on earth, they all have their egos, but manage to keep them under reasonable control. Also, the astral plane beings are not all dark-evil, they too have intentions to try to govern and keep the domain going and developing while continuing to remain in the dualistic state, and they need to believe in progress and good future. Unfortunately, there is no good future for the dualistic state because the ego will always mess it up. Basically, the dualistic perception of reality is a lie, it is a self-delusion, and it is impossible to build a stable system based on lies and delusions, it will always remain sick by its very nature (which inevitably involves suffering).

On the other side, there are nonodualistic realms where souls in nondualistic state of consciousness reside. Therese realms are not separated from dualistic ones by impenetrable wall. It is only the deluded perception of reality, supported by inflated ego and wrong belief systems, that holds to the dualistic state and resists to open to the nondual nature of the Divine and Cosmos, because that would mean literally the death of ego, and the ego will therefore resist as much as it can. But the doors to the nondual realm, the Kingdom of God, are always open and not hard to enter. I don't want to give quotes about that from the Gospels or eastern traditions again (I did it many times already), but this is what these ancient traditions are all about. These realms also have their own structures and hierarchies (even though its hierarchies are non-authoritarian and are only hierarchies of the states of consciousness of the beings), and these structures definitely need to be studied and can be studied.

Now, the Earthly beings, even though residing in its dualistic and fallen state, do have full access to the nondualistic state and its domains, they can learn, experience and know a lot about them while still in human form, but only after "quantum leaping" into the nondual state of consciousness, which is absolutely possible for humans, but does not automatically destroy the structures of the dualistic state, so such people have to cope with "double-sided" vision of reality while remaining in the human form. You may ask - why then for humans not to follow this path of transitioning to nondual state for the whole humanity and still keep reincarnating into human forms? Unfortunately, this is not possible for multiple reasons. One is that this domain is under full control of the dualistic discarnate hierarchies (Demiurge) that will not let this to happen. Second, the dualistic perception is programmed into humans genetically. It will require a "new human" with fully rewired mind structures and genes to get rid of the genetically-programmed dualistic state of mind (this is what is supposed to happen at the second coming of Christ if we believe that myth). Also, the whole human culture is based on the dualistic worldview, which belief systems originate from human's distorted perception of reality and also projected and infused from the astral hierarchies. At this time the messengers from the nondual realms (Christ, Buddha and many others) recommend people who were able to attain the nondual state to leave the human world until better times. Only beings with special saving missions occasionally incarnate into humans, but that is a special operation requiring full spiritual maturity and special training, so not intended for souls just recovered from dualistic state without special training in the nondual reams for the mission.

But unfortunately, you chose to ignore it and remain very averted to the nondualism, while promoting a very compromised worldview of Anthroposophy which also rejects nondualism and supports full submission to the hierarchical system of the dualistic realms and continuous cycle of human reincarnations.

[Stranger]

You didn't. He asked why you think it's justified to rely on the dualistic perceptual experience of random people on YouTube, without any meditative training and a default materialistic mindset, who are recounting memories of the higher planes from the state of a traumatic near-death experience no less, to build up your spiritual faith, when you keep pointing to that same dualistic perceptual experience as distorting, deceptive, confusing, and one of the main reasons why you desire to no longer incarnate on Earth? This question wasn't answered.

That's easy, because, notwithstanding their egoic/dualistic state of consciousness, they are simply reporting the facts. It is like in your profession where you have to accept the evidences from witnesses as trustworthy facts, even though you know that the witnesses are people in egoic state of mind, when there is a sufficient number of independent witnesses claiming witnessing the same facts. Because of such egoic state of mind, you rightly would not trust one or may be two witnesses, but when the number of witnesses and their evidences becomes overwhelming, you and the court has to admit that the case is well supported by evidences (sorry for nonprofessional interpretation, I don't speak the legal language )

Likewise, all these NDE/regression cases provide mostly twisted interpretations of the noncorporeal realities, nevertheless they adequately report the facts, and that is what my and other people critical analysis of these realities is based on.

[AshvinP]

You didn't. He asked why you think it's justified to rely on the dualistic perceptual experience of random people on YouTube, without any meditative training and a default materialistic mindset, who are recounting memories of the higher planes from the state of a traumatic near-death experience no less, to build up your spiritual faith, when you keep pointing to that same dualistic perceptual experience as distorting, deceptive, confusing, and one of the main reasons why you desire to no longer incarnate on Earth? This question wasn't answered.

That's easy, because, notwithstanding their egoic/dualistic state of consciousness, they are simply reporting the facts. It is like in your profession where you have to accept the evidences from witnesses as trustworthy facts, even though you know that the witnesses are people in egoic state of mind, when there is a sufficient number of independent witnesses claiming witnessing the same facts. Because of such egoic state of mind, you rightly would not trust one or may be two witnesses, but when the number of witnesses and their evidences becomes overwhelming, you and the court has to admit that the case is well supported by evidences (sorry for nonprofessional interpretation, I don't speak the legal language )

Likewise, all these NDE/regression cases provide mostly twisted interpretations of the noncorporeal realities, nevertheless they adequately report the facts, and that is what my and other people critical analysis of these realities is based on.

Actually eye witness testimony is notoriously unreliable, especially if the witnesses are intellectually, emotionally or financially invested in the matter at hand. Furthermore, the witnesses are never allowed to offer their opinions on conclusions that can be drawn from the facts they are reporting, which is what the YT people are doing. They are not simply saying 'I experienced X, I experienced Y', but building a whole abstract spiritual schema from those experiences. We have gone over this many times before on this forum - perceiving-experiencing is not the same thing as understanding what is perceived-experienced. That will only be livingly understood when the reality of one's own cognitive activity in all acts of perception is inwardly experienced.

We are not just arbitrarily refusing to believe that you have had this inward experience. It is evident you haven't from everything you are writing, as Cleric just explained again about the Earthly human organism existing across the full spectrum of reality. You treat the various planes as completely orthogonal to one another - your worldview and claims about the higher planes only make sense if they are orthogonal. But they can only be treated as orthogonal so long as one hasn't inwardly experienced the depth structure of their own spiritual activity. Once that is experienced, there is no question of investing so much importance in cherry-picked quotes from one's preferred texts. It becomes evident that people with the opposite view can find just as many quotes supporting their position. There is no question of investing so much importance in testimonies from YT videos made by people who obviously have an emotional entanglement with the subject matter and a financial agenda.

Can you imagine true spiritual adepts and the highest initiates who have fulfilled their Karma making those videos or browsing through those videos and sharing them on forums in support of their world-conception? It simply doesn't happen.

[Stranger]

Can you imagine true spiritual adepts and the highest initiates who have fulfilled their Karma browsing through YT videos and sharing them on forums in support of their world-conception? It simply doesn't happen.

No, but they still provide some worthy information to think about and analyze. The ultimate criterion is our own experience of course, and so all this information from external sources is only as trustworthy as it can be supported and confirmed by personal experience, especially because it applies to nonphysical spiritual realities.

Of course, all this NDE/regression and so on accounts are not proofs, they are only suggestive information. It is about nonphysical realities after all. But at the end, it is not about proving who is right or wrong, at stake is our own future destiny. If it is not true then we have nothing to lose, we will just die at the end of life. But if there is a chance it might be true, then it's well worth considering such possibility and considering its consequences for our own future.

The problem is - how people can take this information, quotes from traditions and evidences as trustworthy if they do not yet have the supporting spiritual experience (for example, the spiritual experience of the nondual state)? One option is that they can resist the possibility of such experience and such state, together with all evidences supporting it, as not trustworthy (isn't that exactly what materialists do?). Or, they can try to be open, take "what if" approach and find out for themselves whether they can have such experience with first-person experiential confirmation of the evidences. Most nondual practitioners always start from completely dualistic state of mind and it often takes years of consistent practice to start vaguely seeing the nondual reality "through" the veil of dualistic perception. But, at minimum, they need a mindset to have some faith in such path, even if it's just enough faith to "give it a try". If they don't then nothing is going to happen and they will remain stuck in their dualistic state of mind for as long as they chose to be.

Unfortunately, as it usually happens in the human domain, in both modern nondual teachings and traditions, there is a lot of false teachers, distorted half-true-half-false misinformation, irrelevant practices and texts so on. The modern "neoadvaita" nonduality is especially flooded with such stuff. It is very disorienting for the practitioners, and I myself had to struggle with it a lot. The true teachers and uncontaminated and trustworthy nondual teachings and practices are very few and very hard to find, and takes a lot of search, try-and-fail and discernment to find. so, if someone (like Cleric) wants to criticize the nondual teachings, than it is very easy to find plenty of such flawed examples of teachings and practices to criticize.

'' My teaching is not a philosophy. It is the result of direct experience"
Thich Nhat Hanh

[AshvinP]

Can you imagine true spiritual adepts and the highest initiates who have fulfilled their Karma browsing through YT videos and sharing them on forums in support of their world-conception? It simply doesn't happen.

No, but they still provide some worthy information to think about and analyze. The ultimate criterion is our own experience of course, and so all this information from external sources is only as trustworthy as it can be supported and confirmed by personal experience, especially because it applies to nonphysical spiritual realities.

Of course, all this NDE/regression and so on accounts are not proofs, they are only suggestive information. It is about nonphysical realities after all. But at the end, it is not about proving who is right or wrong, at stake is our own future destiny. If it is not true then we have nothing to lose, we will just die at the end of life. But if there is a chance it might be true, then it's well worth considering such possibility and considering its consequences for our own future.

Here we agree. But again, there is only 'nothing to lose' from placing bets of this magnitude if the Earthly plane is orthogonal to the higher worlds. Otherwise, what we think, feel, and do now is also what we have done and are doing and will do in the higher worlds - they are One and the same, only experienced from opposite poles of consciousness. Now we can quote reams of spiritual science which elaborate on the risks involved when one abandons their Divine duty to seek out the high ideals while on the Earthly plane. But none of that will register because it will be seen as a trick by the Demiurge. No matter how philosophical, scientific, and overall logically coherent it is, it will be felt that the Logos who lives within us must be the Demiurge as well, because it asks us for a devotional thinking effort. Anything which asks us for inner effort and redemptive sacrifice, which liberates us gradually, rhythmically, and harmoniously from the physical-sensory plane, is viewed with utmost suspicion, to the point where it is dismissed out of hand.

But what if the accounts you are referencing are wrong? (and we should be clear, there are plenty of testimonies which go in the opposite direction, but you will always say those are from weak souls who were deceived). What if the voice of conscience which tells us everything the Gods made is very good and deserves our sacrificial thinking effort, is not out to deceive us, but to guide us in the optimal path for growing our consciousness into the higher worlds during life and between death-rebirth? Have you considered this possibility? The steps needed to experience and verify this spiritual thinking activity for ourselves are not long and arduous. It could literally happen from something as simple as what Cleric wrote on another thread recently:

Lorenzo, you've said many times that thoughts for you are in no way different than any other sensory perceptions. They simply appear. But what about something simple as adding two numbers together. Let's not add 1+1 or 2+2, which we can simply recall from memory but more something like 93+59, for example. If you try to add such numbers in your mind, would you say that the result 'simply appears'? Or you would say that an extra element is needed, something akin to thinking will, some exertion on your side, without which the answer would simply never appear?

Of course it's not only about understanding this depth of thinking activity intellectually, but experiencing it inwardly. Or if that's not quite enough, there are many more simple reflections, exercises, concentrations, meditations, and prayers which, if pursued with good will and persistence, will lead to unsuspected and life-changing results, without a doubt. That the Father's kingdom is outspread all around us, waiting in anticipation for us to evolve our cognition to not only see it, but to consciously manifest it, will becoming perfectly evident.

We have to be careful with our conceptions, as they are limited by time-place contingencies. Remember that Joshua Emmanuel the Christ speaks about, 'the Kingdom of Heavens within'. We cannot divide our research into that which takes place within the personality and that which is conducted outside. As above, so below. All we explore outside the self - Divine Laws, Principles, Ideas, Causes, and the Heavens - actually belongs to our higher nature.

Yet we need to speak in relative terms now. The so-called mesocosmic work is an exploration of Total Wisdom, Love and Power in the worlds, leading to self-conscious and responsible engagement in the Divine Plan. This work engenders within the personality a repsect for all of life, a respect for self and others... We will marvel at the immeasurable Wisdom of Absolute Beingness.
...
Do you think Absolute Beingness, in Its infinite Wisdom, would allow for the creation of the material world if it were not of value? Do you think that the Archangels would work unceasingly to construct and maintain the material planet and universe, keeping them in harmony, if it were not meant to be the home of the phenomenon of life? Our material bodies belong to the material world as our psychical bodies belong to the psychical world. It is a great honour to participate in this glorious earth as 'this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven' [Gen 28:17]. The flesh, though heavy at times, and the earth are sacred. It is a pity to degrade, in any way, this paradise for it 'is holy ground' [Ex 3:5]

[Stranger]

Here we agree. But again, there is only 'nothing to lose' from placing bets of this magnitude if the Earthly plane is orthogonal to the higher worlds. Otherwise, what we think, feel, and do now is also what we have done and are doing and will do in the higher worlds - they are One and the same, only experienced from opposite poles of consciousness. Now we can quote reams of spiritual science which elaborate on the risks involved when one abandons their Divine duty to seek out the high ideals while on the Earthly plane. But none of that will register because it will be seen as a trick by the Demiurge. No matter how philosophical, scientific, and overall logically coherent it is, it will be felt that the Logos who lives within us must be the Demiurge as well, because it asks us for a devotional thinking effort. Anything which asks us for inner effort and redemptive sacrifice, which liberates us gradually, rhythmically, and harmoniously from the physical-sensory plane, is viewed with utmost suspicion, to the point where it is dismissed out of hand.

But what if the accounts you are referencing are wrong? (and we should be clear, there are plenty of testimonies which go in the opposite direction, but you will always say those are from weak souls who were deceived). What if the voice of conscience which tells us everything the Gods made is very good and deserves our sacrificial thinking effort, is not out to deceive us, but to guide us in the optimal path for growing our consciousness into the higher worlds during life and between death-rebirth? Have you considered this possibility? The steps needed to experience and verify this spiritual thinking activity for ourselves are not long and arduous. It could literally happen from something as simple as what Cleric wrote on another thread recently:

Good questions, and the answer is: do honest and open spiritual search, test everything based on your experience and use spiritual discernment.

Personally, of course, I only take the Demiurge as a hypothesis. I will find out once I live the body. But I need to be fully prepared for it. In the meantime I'm dedicating my time to spiritual practice as much as possible, this is what will help me to develop discernment among other spiritual abilities. But from what I know based on my nondual spiritual experience, I sense a lot of truth in the Buddhist and Advaitic teachings and from teachings of Christ when they are viewed from the nondual perspective, it all makes a lot of sense. Based on my studies of spiritual traditions and my own practical experience, attaining nondual state of consciousness is what is really crucial, while at the same time developing higher cognition, intuitive and imaginative thinking is also important, they really go hand-in-hand. Now, regarding the Demiurge: if he is real, I will meet him at the point of the departure from the body, and that is where my discernment and spiritual immunity will be tested, and if I fail, I'll go back to human form, not a big deal; and if I succeed, I will move on to nondual realms. If Demiurge is not real, great, I'll see what comes for me next but I still did my job while in the body.

“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”
Buddha

Do you think Absolute Beingness, in Its infinite Wisdom, would allow for the creation of the material world if it were not of value? Do you think that the Archangels would work unceasingly to construct and maintain the material planet and universe, keeping them in harmony, if it were not meant to be the home of the phenomenon of life? Our material bodies belong to the material world as our psychical bodies belong to the psychical world. It is a great honour to participate in this glorious earth as 'this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven' [Gen 28:17]. The flesh, though heavy at times, and the earth are sacred. It is a pity to degrade, in any way, this paradise for it 'is holy ground' [Ex 3:5]

Yes, he is repeating the Plotinus argument against the Gnostics. There are different ways to explain the creation of material realm and there are different possible scenarios.
- We know the standard Western theological explanation of God's creation to which this quote relates. It could be true, but IMO not likely according to my research and experience.
- Another one is that God is Consciousness with infinite creative potential, and realities are actually created only by its individuations, by beings, by gods-creators (this includes the Gnostic creation myth, as well as the Buddhist and Hinduist ones). These creator-beings might be at different stages of development and states of mind, so they create realities according to their states. All these creations and states, good or bad, distorted or clear, are always of value, they all bring about valuable experiences, be it suffering or joy, delusion or knowledge of truth, and then bring the experiences back to the Divine. Yet, there is no reason to get stuck in a distorted state of consciousness, and once the experience is gained and lessons learnt, the beings usually move on.
- Unfortunately, the discrepancy between the dualistic and nondual states were not known to Plotinus and Western Church fathers and theologians (except for Meister Eckhart), so they could not understand what exactly the "fall" means and what is exactly wrong and needs to be fixed with human nature. And the problem is not with matter and material world per se, there is nothing wrong with the Mother Earth, but the problem is with human mind structure with its genetically embedded dualistic perception of reality. It could be fixed while remaining in the material realm, may be by future genetic or AI technology, may be with the help of ET or nonmaterial beings, may be with the second coming of Christ, we will see. If that happens, material Earth would become a wonderful place for souls to incarnate into the "new man" (I will be first to jump in, but only if there is no memory wipe!).