Stranger wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 1:58 amI was trying and hoping to "decompartmentalize" and integrate the nondual state with my entire human mind for years, but after a while I realized that it's just not happening and there is a deep incompatibility with it inherent in the subconscious structures of human mind. Meditative methods of nondual state are a whole different discussion, and I'm not advanced enough to teach that, there are people in the nondual community that can do it much better. The only thing I can say is that I just "switch there" into the nondual state-perception of reality when meditating and also often during the day, but then I inevitably get pulled out of it into the habitual dualistic mode in everyday activities. Also, my other main activity is blending the nondual state with my creative art and music activities, I try to play and paint "from" that state so to speak, not always successful though. In that way I exercise my higher cognition faculties (imaginative, intuitive, inspirational, esthetic, creative etc) in the active nondual mode as opposed to a passive meditative state. I tried some exercises that Cleric suggested and some from Klocek's book, but I found that my meditative and artistic activity essentially includes exercising and training the same faculties but in a more integrated way so to speak. But I do not see anything wrong with those exercises, I assume they can really help people who do them regularly.AshvinP wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:12 am Eugene,
Parallel to your discussion with Cleric, I was wondering if you could share with us what specifically you have done so far in your attempts to decompartmentalize the nondual state from the dual state. What is generally your go-to meditative method for the nondual state? You previously mentioned trying exercises from HTKHW, so which ones specifically have you worked with? Besides meditation, have you tried any other spiritual exercises which could potentially build the gradient from dual to nondual? I think we all agree here that reading a lot of books or scripture, esoteric or otherwise, is not going to cut it.
Well there is a major discontinuity happening here. On the one hand, things are being presented here in the spirit of pointing you towards the development of imagination, inspiration, and intuition. On the other hand, you feel you already have developed or are developing them through artistic practice. Then you say, 'yeah I know about all that, it's still dualistic consciousness which can't transform our practical and living experience-perception of the world... so the dualism is baked right into the rigid structures of the subconscious mind'. You speak of these subconscious structures as 'genetic' for that reason. The materialist also said our thought-life is limited by physical-genetic structures until recently. Now, those who continued to reason through the Earthly spectrum, with a mindset that there is still a ton she has yet to teach us, are forced to recognize that things are not so simple and rigid as they previously thought. Our brains and our genes are actually quite plastic and pliable. So the mystic 'non-dualist' is stuck in materialist thought of the 19th and early 20th centuries, while the materialists themselves have progressed further.
Artistic practice is certainly beneficial for spiritual development, but it is not the same thing as imaginative cognition. Even the first steps towards the latter reveal to us that all limitations we abstractly place on 'dualistic consciousness' are the limitations of our personal organization at any given time, not that of any external force in reality. Someone who still locates the source for such limitations in Nature, God, the Demiurge, or anything similar, simply has not developed any higher cognition which is capable of building the gradient. But no amount of explanation, quotes from Steiner, illustrations from Cleric, will be able to illuminate this fact for you (or apparently Mike) until you guys are willing to humbly admit, to yourselves, that there are spheres of inner development which you simply can't imagine and therefore don't suspect. These modes of cognition are not already known elements in front of your mind's eye, even when you are in the nondual state. They are completely new impulses which need to inflow our consciousness from the archetypal unknown. If we start with personal preferences, abstract opinions, speculations, and Demiurgic theories about the archetypal realms, then we don't stand a chance.
Stranger wrote:As we know, all spiritual and religious traditions of the past developed in exoteric forms followed by masses, and esoteric forms of their spiritual realization by inner path of first-person experiential insight followed by only few individuals. We can disregard the exoteric forms, but even the esoteric ones of all traditions never mentioned a possibility of salvation or spiritual realization in the current human form, neither they ever mentioned the "spiritual progress of humanity". Being esoteric, they had deeper insight in the fundamental flaws of the human nature and well understood the impossibility of such progress or salvation.
Ironically, what you/Steiner are promoting is also a "salvation from beyond" from following the "curvatures of meaning" of higher-order beings. What you don't realize is that these higher beings are themselves deluded, they are higher-order beings of the dualistic realm above the Earth. If you or anyone want to stay in their domain and believe in progress and harmony on Earth while living within the dualistic human nature, it's fine, it's completely your choice. But don't make this choice mandatory, there are souls that choose the truth of the nondual state and nothing can make them to accept any compromise with the dualistic delusion. Nondual and dualistic states don't mix, it's like water and oil.
I just want to briefly touch on this. First, I wonder if you notice how you are oscillating widlly from, "And yes, the states are bridgeable, even through a common dualistic language..." to the states being entirely unmixeable like 'water and oil'? That has happened several times on this thread. With such oscillations, can you really be confident that your lower 'Demiurgic' nature, with its passions and preferences, is not in control and steering your thinking on this issue whichever way it pleases at any given time?
What Cleric has been trying to illustrate more broadly is that we don't know what you write above - in fact, what we know from careful study is the opposite. We know the esoteric always precedes the exoteric as its supra-sensory source. They are not orthogonal to each other, they don't run in parallel with each other. The exoteric (outer) is the lawful outgrowth of the seeds planted by the esoteric (inner), or the outer physiognomy of the esoteric, and this relation holds good in every domain of nature and culture, from the formation of the mineral, plant, animal kingdoms to religion, science, and art. It is the same relation between our esoteric journey through the higher worlds after death and our exoteric incarnation on Earth. That is the key polar archetypal relation to understand, which Cleric has metaphorically pointed to in several different ways on this thread alone.
When this polar relation is split into competing dualities in our abstract thought, then we end up with exactly the discontinuity you keep pointing to between the dual and nondual. That discontinuity is an artifact of our own abstract intellect fueled by shadowy passions and desires and preferences. Because of this artifact, we then say 'my current limitations = universal limitations, progress = immediate physical progress, spiritual understanding = average human reading and comprehending PoF, higher order beings = salvation from beyond', and many similar false equivalences. All of those result from the false presumption that the esoteric is orthogonal, parallel, or otherwise discontinuous, from the exoteric. Yet what careful thinking shows is that the inner (esoteric) is always in the process of becoming outer (exoteric) and the latter is always in process of feeding back into the former in a rhythmic evolutionary process. If we decide to split them apart and/or only fix our attention on one tiny section of the holistic evolution, like the modern age, we will obviously reach a flawed understanding and seek out theories to parrot that understanding back to us.
Beyond that, every Christian esoteric tradition speaks of the possibility of fully redeeming the human form and the Earth as a whole. That is exactly how the Philosopher's Stone is understood.
It hides from the profane, but reveals to the Initiate the more clearly how he is to labor day by day to make for himself that choicest of all gems, the Philosopher's Stone--more precious than the Kohinoor; nay, than the sum of all earthly wealth! It reminds him how mankind, in its ignorance, is hourly wasting the actual concrete material that might be used in the formation of this priceless treasure.
To keep him steadfast and true through every adversity, the Rose cross holds aloft, as an inspiration, the glorious consummation in store for him that overcometh, and points to Christ as the Star of Hope, the "first fruits," Who wrought this marvelous Stone while inhabiting the body of Jesus.
Upon investigation it has been found that there was in all systems of Religion a teaching reserved for the Priest-craft and not given to the multitude. The Christ also spoke to the multitude in parables, but explained the inner meaning of these parables to the disciples, to give them an understanding more suited to their developed minds.
Paul gave "milk" to the babes or younger members of the community, but "meat" to the strong who had studied more deeply. Thus there has always been an inner and an outer teaching, and this inner teaching was given in so-called Mystery Schools which have changed from time to time to suit the needs of the people among whom they were designed to work.
Heindel , Max. The Rosicrucian Cosmo Conception (Illustrated) (p. 502). Kindle Edition.