The realm of the Demiurge

[Stranger]

What exactly about this form is so adverse to you right now? Just the fact that it constrains your conscious activity on Earth?

Like I said many times already, there is nothing more to learn for me here and it impedes my further growth, just like living in Casino. Also, losing my memories in the next human rebirth would not make any sense. Most souls that reincarnate into humans don't care much about spiritual growth and accumulating knowledge and experience, they are mostly attracted (or even addicted) to emotions and desires that they can experience and satisfy in the human form, so they keep returning to Earth just like gambling addicts keep returning to the Casino. Because of that they don't really care about losing memories. I used to be like that too, but now, as I value more the spiritual path and knowledge, I would not benefit anymore form human conditions.

[lorenzop]

Like I said many times already, there is nothing more to learn for me here and it impedes my further growth, just like living in Casino. Also, losing my memories in the next human rebirth would not make any sense. Most souls that reincarnate into humans don't care much about spiritual growth and accumulating knowledge and experience, they are mostly attracted (or even addicted) to emotions and desires that they can experience and satisfy in the human form, so they keep returning to Earth just like gambling addicts keep returning to the Casino. Because of that they don't really care about losing memories. I used to be like that too, but now, as I value more the spiritual path and knowledge, I would not benefit anymore form human conditions.

Thanks, this is about the funniest and most ironical thing I've read in a while - with a healthy dose of hubris for that extra giggle.

[Cleric K]

What exactly about this form is so adverse to you right now? Just the fact that it constrains your conscious activity on Earth?

Like I said many times already, there is nothing more to learn for me here and it impedes my further growth, just like living in Casino. Also, losing my memories in the next human rebirth would not make any sense. Most souls that reincarnate into humans don't care much about spiritual growth and accumulating knowledge and experience, they are mostly attracted (or even addicted) to emotions and desires that they can experience and satisfy in the human form, so they keep returning to Earth just like gambling addicts keep returning to the Casino. Because of that they don't really care about losing memories. I used to be like that too, but now, as I value more the spiritual path and knowledge, I would not benefit anymore form human conditions.

Eugene, like Ashvin, I'm also interested in what you see as the main impediments in your present state. I don't think you have answered his question above. You keep referencing to spiritual growth, evolution and so on but all this remains floating in the air.

Like most people on this forum, we're privileged enough that we have access to the Internet. This probably also implies that we have food and shelter that keep us alive. With this, our basic Earthly needs are completely satisfied. From this point onwards, what are the impediments? We don't even have to pay for most of the information that we need, as it is already freely available. What prevents you from seeking ways for the spiritual world to inflow into the sensory spectrum through your "I"-being, such that the great spiritualization of man and the whole Cosmic matrix can begin? Obviously you see this work as 'nothing more to learn here'. You say that the conditions on Earth are unfavorable and you can't continue your spiritual growth. In that case, can you describe in more details, what you feel as impediment right now? Think of a concrete example. What is it that you would like to do presently but for which you feel prevented to do so? In that sense, how do you imagine the conditions in the other, more favorable world. What do you imagine you would be doing there? What are the other beings doing there? And what really is spiritual growth and evolution? In what ways we change as we evolve?

[Stranger]

Eugene, like Ashvin, I'm also interested in what you see as the main impediments in your present state. I don't think you have answered his question above. You keep referencing to spiritual growth, evolution and so on but all this remains floating in the air.

Like most people on this forum, we're privileged enough that we have access to the Internet. This probably also implies that we have food and shelter that keep us alive. With this, our basic Earthly needs are completely satisfied. From this point onwards, what are the impediments? We don't even have to pay for most of the information that we need, as it is already freely available. What prevents you from seeking ways for the spiritual world to inflow into the sensory spectrum through your "I"-being, such that the great spiritualization of man and the whole Cosmic matrix can begin? Obviously you see this work as 'nothing more to learn here'. You say that the conditions on Earth are unfavorable and you can't continue your spiritual growth. In that case, can you describe in more details, what you feel as impediment right now?

These are good questions, Cleric. In addition to the memory wipe at birth that we already discussed, these impediments are mostly the impediments of the mind structures that every human inherits through ancestral genes and cultural conditioning. They shape our individual and public lives and are the root causes of all human troubles:

- The dualistic perception of reality. When we perceive the world, we perceive it by unconsciously dividing it into separate and material subjects and objects. We also divide it into "external" and "internal" and we perceive ourselves as separate selves/subjects that perceive the external objective world. This is a completely distorted and deluded perception of reality. This perception is a foundation of the ego complex, because the ego is a natural consequence of perceiving ourselves separate from the outside world. It was developed evolutionary, because our ancestors could not survive in the wild without such perception mechanism. But at the current stage of humanity it became a severe impediment for the future progress. Nevertheless, it is so deeply ingrained in our subconscious mind structure by genetic composition and decades of cultural conditioning that it is virtually impossible for an average human to change or transform such perception of reality.

- The basic human emotions that subconsciously control our minds. These emotions are mostly egoic and are at the root of all our troubles in private and social life: greediness, selfishness, anger, aggression, fear, pride, envy etc. Our animal ancestors developed them as a survival mechanism, but at the current stage of humanity we do not need these emotions to control us anymore. Yet, they are so deeply ingrained in our subconscious human mind structures that there is little hope that an average human and the humanity as a whole can free itself from their control. Of course, there are good emotions too like love that we should retain and develop further.

- The annoying continuous chatting "monkey" mind - a flow of internal discursive unconscious chatting that average human cannot control. This is different from higher-cognitive intuitive thinking that is nonverbal, conscious and controlled by will. Every meditator knows that it is possible to stop or at least maintain a full awareness of the chatter for a certain period, but then it usually returns into its automatic mode. This is a completely useless atavism of human mind which impedes our spiritual development and makes an average human to remain in unconscious mind-automatic daydreaming most of their lifetime.

To me these human conditions became severe impediments for my future growth. Over the years of practice I was able to partially weaken them and develop certain level of awareness and mindfulness to keep them under control, nevertheless they still reside deeply in my human part of mind and human nature and they continue impeding me. I do not see a point of being reborn as human and coping with these conditions again that bring me no benefit whatsoever in my spiritual development and only impede my future progress.

On the larger scale, these conditions largely shape the inner, private and social life of humanity and are the root cause of most of our problems. Religions and philosophies over the history were intended to alleviate these impediments, but their success was very limited, which we can see throughout the history. Only a very few advanced practitioners of the religious traditions (western saints and eastern enlightened masters) were able to some extent to transcend these human mind conditions through consistent spiritual practice, with the rest of humanity remaining completely conditioned by them notwithstanding all the influences of the religions or philosophies. All these impediments also condition the social life and structures of our society: politics, social and collective institutions, and are the root cause of social conflicts, inequality, corruption and so on. The society cannot be better that an average individual and all attempts to change the large-scale social structure and system (like from monarchy or capitalism to communism, dictatorship of religious state) always fail and are doomed to fail. In that sense, the situation for humanity is pretty much hopeless for as long as it remains under control of these impediments. Unfortunately, an average human usually does not even realize how much their mind is conditioned by these impediments and how much they shape most of the troubles and sufferings of their life.

Let's take the Anthroposophy for example. No doubt its practices can help certain advanced individuals who have enough spiritual and intellectual capacity. But seriously, take for example this post by Cleric, do you expect an average human to even comprehend what is being conveyed in that message, let alone to practice it?

Think of a concrete example. What is it that you would like to do presently but for which you feel prevented to do so? In that sense, how do you imagine the conditions in the other, more favorable world. What do you imagine you would be doing there? What are the other beings doing there? And what really is spiritual growth and evolution? In what ways we change as we evolve?

My development at the current stage is heading towards the spiritual dimensions of nondual, compassionate, intuitive and esthetic perception of reality and living beings. I accomplish it though spiritual and meditation practice, through mastering arts (painting, music) and studying spiritual texts and philosophy. All these developments happen mostly on the levels of consciousness beyond the human mind, and I have to constantly struggle with the impediments that I described above coming from the human part of my current consciousness. I admit that the human conditions used to be more beneficial for me in my previous lives and previous stages of my current life when they allowed me to experience a wide range of human emotions, social interactions and circumstances and learn from them. But they don’t benefit me anymore, I already learnt from them everything I needed to learn. In my future incarnations I will choose forms that are free from all these impediments, and I’m pretty sure such forms exist in the vast multiverse.

[Stranger]

Here is another interesting one on the topic. The "false light" she is talking about is essentially the same as the Demiurge.


The Demiurge wants to convince us to believe that the humanity is progressing and improving, that there is bright future for humanity, so that we continue to be engaged and reincarnating into humans. There is indeed some social and technological progress, but it is extremely slow and, except for the technology advancement, is virtually insignificant. After all historical lessons that we were supposed to learn in 20th century, we are again involved in the mess of totalitarian dictatorships and large-scale wars. Humans do not learn from history. The main core impediments that I described remain totally intact and not even recognized as key problems. A hope that newer more progressive worldviews or philosophies like Anthroposophy or idealism will impact humanity on the large scale is totally naive, an average human cannot even comprehend what they are trying to convey.

This girl is saying that the Earth is a "master school" for brave souls to develop the spiritual discernment towards the false light. I agree, in this sense the human condition is definitely a good lesson. But once a soul recognizes it and develops the discernment to free itself from the spells of the "false light", there is no point in remaining involved in this realm anymore.

[Stranger]

PS: Here is another perspective on the topic. suppose a soul, not very mature but not yet contaminated with much of the inflated ego, comes to the Demiurge's realm to incarnate into a human for whatever reason. During the human life it gets indoctrinated and implanted with all these impediments (dualistic perception, ego-complex, human egoic emotions, lack of mindfulness) that over the lifetime become deeply ingrained in its subconsciousness. The soul, because of these flaws (which are none of its fault), makes many misdeeds and hurts many people in various life circumstances over the liftime. It accumulates the "karmic debt" and all these subconscious karmic egoic patterns. After death, as we know it from NDE experience, pre-birth memories and regression therapy accounts, the soul is being presented with "life review" where all its faults and harms are emphasized and exposed, and then the "council of spirit guides" states that the soul needs to reincarnate again to rectify its karmic debts and learn more to do better job next time. Brainwashed by the feel of guilt, the soul comes back to the next life with wiped-out memories forgetting all its previous mistakes only to make them over again, and gets exposed to the same conditions which only deeper reinforce all these patterns of impediments (dualistic perception, ego-complex etc), makes more mistakes and hurts more people. This becomes a catch-22 situation and a vicious cycle. Many NDE and regression accounts reported recalling hundreds and hundreds of human incarnations with no visible sigh of spiritual progress. Human conditions actually poison and intoxicate the soul deeply into subconscious with dualistic perception and ego complex. Surely, any experience is valuable, and many are still able to break from this egoic-dualistic reincarnation cycle, and after that, will have a good immunity against dualistic delusion and ego. But the point is not to get stuck in human reincarnations, but at some point, once all these hard lessons are learnt, to break from it and move on with the further spiritual progress beyond the reams of egoic mind structures and dualistic perceptions. In a way, it is similar to getting infected by a virus, getting very sick from it for some period of time, but then to heal and obtain immunity from the virus so that to never get sick from it again.

[AshvinP]

PS: Here is another perspective on the topic. suppose a soul, not very mature but not yet contaminated with much of the inflated ego, comes to the Demiurge's realm to incarnate into a human for whatever reason. During the human life it gets indoctrinated and implanted with all these impediments (dualistic perception, ego-complex, human egoic emotions, lack of mindfulness) that over the lifetime become deeply ingrained in its subconsciousness. The soul, because of these flaws (which are none of its fault), makes many misdeeds and hurts many people in various life circumstances over the liftime. It accumulates the "karmic debt" and all these subconscious karmic egoic patterns. After death, as we know it from NDE experience, pre-birth memories and regression therapy accounts, the soul is being presented with "life review" where all its faults and harms are emphasized and exposed, and then the "council of spirit guides" states that the soul needs to reincarnate again to rectify its karmic debts and learn more to do better job next time. Brainwashed by the feel of guilt, the soul comes back to the next life with wiped-out memories forgetting all its previous mistakes only to make them over again, and gets exposed to the same conditions which only deeper reinforce all these patterns impediments (dualistic perception, ego-complex etc), makes more mistakes and hurts more people. This becomes a catch-22 situation and a vicious cycle. Many NDE and regression accounts reported recalling hundreds and hundreds of human incarnations with no visible sigh of spiritual progress. Human conditions actually poison and intoxicate the soul deeply into subconscious with dualistic perception and ego complex. Surely, any experience is valuable, and many are still able to break from this egoic-dualistic reincarnation cycle, and after that, will have a good immunity against dualistic delusion and ego. But the point is not to get stuck in human reincarnations, but at some point, once all these hard lessons are learnt, to break from it and move on with the further spiritual progress beyond the reams of egoic mind structures and dualistic perceptions. In a way, it is similar to getting infected by a virus, getting very sick from it for some period of time, but then to heal and obtain immunity from the virus so that to never get sick from it again.

Eugene,

What is the precise metholodgy used by you, or these people you are putting your faith in, to investigate the planes across the threshold of death? I really hope it isn't only second and third hand accounts from NDE reports, regression therapy, hypnotic states, mediumship, etc. The planes across the threshold of death can be explored in full waking consciousness, with the thinking Ego intact, during normal life circumstances, without any other parties intervening. The results can be communicated in a philosophical and scientific way that is completely accessible to ordinary reasoning cognition, which is what Steiner, among the many Masters of the White Lodge, was uniquely gifted at doing. Even Theosophy was eventually permeated with a reliance on unconscious or semi-conscious mediumship for its half-baked spiritual research, which is a big reason Steiner broke company with that organization, and Theosophy is like an ivy league institution compared to the 'community colleges' you are finding on YouTube.

We don't want to hear arguments rooted in these third-hand accounts or in your subjective preferences and interests and feelings of soul-superiority. It's like basing your spiritual path on the friend of a friend who saw a car accident 200 years ago (because all of these same 'alternate views' emerged in occult circles of the left-hand path in the 19th century, if not earlier). What is your philosophical or scientific reasoning for the Truth of your anti-Light path? On this forum, continuing in the spirit of what Steiner and others started before, Cleric has presented dozens of illustrations of the higher worlds, the higher planes of consciousness and their lawful behavior, through metaphors which are accessible to our ordinary reasoning cognition, which don't require us to suspend all disbelief and believe in magical 'multiverses' where everything we desire to happen, happens. The latter is in keeping with modern pop culture, but it doesn't make the basis for a logically sound argument.





We all understand very well where your anxieties and concerns and preferences are coming from - after all, they reflect the default state for modern humans immersed in the sensory spectrum and struggling to find a connection with the inner Spirit. Just because we enter onto a spritual path doesn't mean we immediately shed this default conditioning. I have discussed the physical human form with Federica previously as well. I am sure most people can relate to this experience on the spiritual meditative path.

As mentioned before, simply from my own initial experience, the 'forsaking' of the physical by the higher nature is a reality for me with my current polarized consciousness. It begins to feel like a millstone or albatross around the neck, at times. A densified slag that I am carrying around and which, despite my meager attempts to spiritualize it, is always lagging behind and refusing to cooperate fully. Of course the cause for this situation should always be located in my own actions, in this lifetime or past ones. Whatever physical constraints we have on our spiritual activity cannot be logically or ethically attributed to God/Reality as such, although the temptation to do so is very strong and is the underlying reason for the atheism, mysticism, cynicism, nihilism which pervades the modern world. We ourselves have chained our being to the dense physical over and over again out of lower sensuous and intellectual egoism, so we must always keep this in mind on our spiritual path.

If I were to simply stop with my logical reasoning at the first underlined part, and rest comfortable with my initial meditative experiences, then the 'escape to pure abodes' path I find on YouTube would seem a perfectly reasonable one to follow. I would feel completely justified in forsaking the human form and the Earthly environment in which its states of being must unfold for continuity of consciousness. This is why scripture of the OT and NT warns against idolatry throughout - it's not some arbitrary rule to prevent us from making stone figures or investigating other worlds with manifold beings, but to help us guard against our own constant temptation to stop short of realizing our full potential of living knowledge. We are constantly tempted by the lower nature to excuse ourselves from any further thinking efforts, to become apathetic towards the responsibilities of physical and spiritual life. Then we rush to intellectual judgments on matters of the most supreme importance for our continued spiritual growth and allow the ego to uncontrollably inflate.

Notice the unredemptive attitude towards the human form is only possible if we practically negate the possibility that this form can be understood in its living spiritual dynamics during our current incarnation. So, far from being a reflection of high spiritual enlightenment of a soul who no longer has anything to learn from the Earthly spectrum, it signals someone who is still in the earliest stages of potential spiritual growth and doesn't realize (or want to realize) how much further he can develop in this current incarnation through inner effort - as Cleric said, how much more the spiritual world can inflow the Earthly spectrum through our "I"-consciousness. It reflects a naive thinking that invests all 'hope' and 'progress' in the myopic cultural landscape which changes over the course of years and decades, rather than the inner landscape of soul and spirit which our core individuality has been metamorphosing through for aeons.

Since you have shared a few cautions to Anthroposophists, I will also share one with you. The fact is that all these 'alternative paths', which root themselves in ancient Gnostic teachings, are known and have been anticipated by Anthroposophy and all streams of spiritual science which don't shy away from rigorous logical thinking. It is the fact that they are rooted in ancient teachings of the past which is precisely the problem - what we need today are spiritual impulses from the future, which are no doubt unfamiliar and unexpected to the current intellectual mode of cognition, as all novel evolutionary developments are, but which orient us towards the healthy adaptation of humanity to its holistic body-soul-spirit nature and therefore the continued creative becoming of the Cosmic organism. When this possibility of living spiritual knowledge is ignored or foreclosed upon, or is assumed to have already been reached by the inflated ego, then one feels compelled to adopt the unredemptive escapist mentality. Unfortunately, the people in your videos are worshipping the serpent in Eden without realizing what that actually means.

The difference between the “good” wisdom and the purely luciferic wisdom — which so far as content is concerned is exactly the same — is that the “good” wisdom is in hands other than those of the luciferic beings. That is the essential point. It is not a question of there being one wisdom that can be neatly packed away in some chamber of the soul and make a person virtuous! The wisdom of worlds is uniform, the only difference being whether it is in the hands of wise people who use it for good, whether it is in the hands of the Angeloi or Archangeloi, or whether it is in the hands of Lucifer and his hosts. In olden times the wisdom needed for the progress of humanity could be obtained only from a luciferic source; hence the initiates were obliged to receive it from that source and at the same time to take upon themselves the obligation not to yield to the aspirations of the luciferic beings.

Lucifer's intention was to convey the wisdom to humanity in such a way that it would induce people to abandon the path of earth evolution and take a path leading to a super-earthly sphere, a sphere aloof from the earth. The luciferic beings inculcated their wisdom into human beings but their desire was that it would make them turn away from the earth, without passing through earthly evolution. Lucifer wants to abandon the earth to its fate, to win humankind for a kingdom alien to the kingdom of Christ.

[Cleric K]

Here is another interesting one on the topic. The "false light" she is talking about is essentially the same as the Demiurge.

The Demiurge wants to convince us to believe that the humanity is progressing and improving, that there is bright future for humanity, so that we continue to be engaged and reincarnating into humans. There is indeed some social and technological progress, but it is extremely slow and, except for the technology advancement, is virtually insignificant. After all historical lessons that we were supposed to learn in 20th century, we are again involved in the mess of totalitarian dictatorships and large-scale wars. Humans do not learn from history. The main core impediments that I described remain totally intact and not even recognized as key problems. A hope that newer more progressive worldviews or philosophies like Anthroposophy or idealism will impact humanity on the large scale is totally naive, an average human cannot even comprehend what they are trying to convey.

This girl is saying that the Earth is a "master school" for brave souls to develop the spiritual discernment towards the false light. I agree, in this sense the human condition is definitely a good lesson. But once a soul recognizes it and develops the discernment to free itself from the spells of the "false light", there is no point in remaining involved in this realm anymore.

Eugene, it has always been interesting to me how there are two aspects of you that express here. On one hand you’re a very clear thinker, with in-depth understanding of science, calm, consequential, logical. On the other hand, when it comes to spiritual things you completely decouple from that aspect and simply accept whatever feels most desirable to you.

Videos like those of the lady in black are of little use in the end. I can make another one where I say “Ooh, you’re quite mistaken. The light that you believe to be Divine is also false. I know the true light which is several convolutions further.” and so on.

We have to be quite sober for our Earthly state. It’s actually healthy to start with the feeling of helplessness. We feel ourselves to be confronted with a wall of spiritual phenomena. It doesn’t matter how magnificent it might be, how mystical, visionary or psychedelic. In the end we still confront that wall with our intellectual being and ask the simple questions: what does all this mean? What should I do with my life?

An exoteric Christian may say to New agers: “You’re so funny to be worried about soul recycling and being concerned that you’ll have to reincarnate over and over again. In reality there’s only one life. These ideas about reincarnation are inspired by demons who want to confuse the souls that they may afford to sin because they have many lives ahead of them and they can rectify their mistakes.”

Now who’s to say who’s in the right and who’s in the wrong? It is really proper for man of today to feel a kind of desperation. Is reality a simulation? A dream? Is it all atoms? Is there an afterlife? Or does it all end at death? We should indeed feel helpless with our intellect standing before the wall of spiritual phenomena in our soul. All these beliefs and philosophies are spread out on the wall as items in a supermarket and we wonder what to pick. And we shouldn’t delude ourselves that just because some item feels more sympathetic, it means that some higher intuition tells us it is the true one. Both the ‘true’ and the ‘false’ light are just pictures on the wall. It’s our intellect that has the final verdict.

So is it really hopeless? Are we really in the Cosmic casino where we should simply place all our chips on one of the pictures on the wall, cross our fingers and hope for the best after death?

Not if we recognize that there are countless directions on the wall in which the intellect can aim itself but only one direction in which the intellect can turn in order to investigate its own living essential nature.

We can recognize that the intellect avoids that direction when it casts the blame for its limitations on external factors. It says “there’s too much noise here, I’m constantly distracted. There’s too much conditioning, I can’t trust my own thoughts.” and so on. All of these are seen as temporary unfavorable conditions, yet the intellect doesn’t question for a moment that the true factors may not really lie in external circumstances.

When we begin to grasp the deeper forces that shape our thinking – not simply as more and more abstract pictures on the wall, like in Freudian psychology, but as the real experience of Cosmic spiritual activity decohering through the elemental sheaths – we also understand that we live in the most favorable conditions for our spiritual progress. In fact, we understand that previously the conditions seemed unfavorable only because we’ve had a fantastic conception of what spiritual reality is. It’s like being in first grade and disliking the material. Then we say “The conditions in this first grade are very unfavorable. There’s nothing more that I can learn here. I’ll just go to second grade where I’ll continue my progress.” This however simply misses the point. Even if it was possible to go in second grade, we would feel like an alien there. Nothing will make sense to us because we would be trying to grasp things with our pre-school (since we skipped first grade) spiritual activity.

I know that this will sound outrageous and even insulting but is there a logical reason to feel that way? Here we indeed make a full circle because these are the very same things we’ve been speaking for years. It all boils down to the following:

1/ The intellectual self feels antipathy for its spiritual context thus it flips a coin, chooses a belief from the shelf and patiently waits for death, where more favorable conditions are expected.
2/ The intellect, freeing itself from dualistic ideas which otherwise convince it that it exists in a parallel Earthly realm completely disconnected from other worlds, comes to the only logical non-dual conclusion that intellectual thinking is already part of the one process of reality. This immediately implies that the conditions we have presently are the best ones for the spirit to work on its sheaths and transform them. If we don’t come to know the spirit which decoheres as intellect within the bodily sheaths, here in our Earthly state, we won’t know that spirit in the disincarnated state either. If we can’t experience ourselves adding 1+1 in first grade, we surely won’t find ourselves differentiating functions in second either.

As it has been repeated countless times here, the reason for the above cognitive error is in that we’ve come to believe that in our intellect we’re already a perfect monolithic expression of the Source. Thus we project any hindrances onto our unfavorable environment. Instead of realizing that we have the best conditions to make way for the Spirit of the Source to flow through us and expand our consciousness, we imagine that we’re already a pristine expression of the Source and we simply need an environment with less hindrances.

So the question is, do we realize that 1/ is simply a gamble with no right choice? Do we realize that by ignoring 2/ we dismiss the only way in which we may come to know our higher being here in the Earthly state? Do we realize that after the roulette settles after death, we’ll have only ourselves to blame when we lose all our chips? Simply because we ignored the one thing that could lead us towards true self- and world-knowledge while still in the body?

The canary in the coalmine is really how we refuse to investigate the motives for our gamble. This keeps apart the reasonable aspect of our being from the irrational who simply plays all in and doesn’t want to hear anything. If we see a friend that invests all his fortune in an obvious Ponzi scheme, we try to show him all the textbook signs of it. But if our friend’s desire for quick fortune dominates, no amount of logic will help. In fact, the friend will fiercely repel any logic that may lead him to reconsider his position. He’ll see the logic as the work of the devil that wants to prevent him from being happy.

In general we know how to recognize the signs of a Ponzi scheme in the sensory world yet in spiritual life we do exactly the opposite. It’s enough to notice how we refuse to integrate the facts of experience. We would much rather say “It’s all broken mirrors around us. All facts are manipulated, we can’t trust anything.” Yes, we can’t trust anything except our irrational decision to play all-in on one of the countless pictures on the wall. That one we believe to proceed directly from Source and is unquestionable. Questioning that move is seen as an insult to our divinity.

Speaking of Demiurge, who would have the greatest interest for human souls to place all their chips on a random spot and patiently wait for death? If Source reaches with its Spirit in the elemental spectrum and thinks as intellect, why would it put itself in such a position that it has to play roulette? What of the following sounds as something that the highest Divine Being would say and what as something the Demiurge would say?

1/ It’s all broken mirrors. Your thinking is made of confusions over confusions. The conditions are unfavorable. Seek what feels ‘right’ and hold on to it until death.
2/ The conditions are more favorable than ever. I’m the Spirit that speaks through your intellectual voice. There’s no need to wait for death to know this as a fact. Start making the paths straight here and now you will know me. Not as a picture on the wall of phenomena but as the living current that animates your thinking from within your most intimate being.

Seriously, if in our worldly life a lady dressed in black tells us “just give me all you have and after so and so decades you’ll receive it back with thousandfold interest” or another person says “no need to give me anything. Here are the tools, here are the methods, try them here and now and see how they work”, we know from common sense who’s more likely to pull the wool before our eyes. Yet in spiritual life we somehow do exactly the opposite. We put all our fortune into a glaring Ponzi scheme while musing the most ingenious excuses why finding the Spirit here and now is an illusion, work of the wicked one.

So that which leads us into deeper knowledge of our true being (not as fantastic pictures on the wall but as deeper experience of our spiritual activity and the way it is constrained), of that which makes ever greater sense of the world, where science, art and religion flow into a harmonious whole, where we begin to understand the evolutionary flow of humanity, the structure of man and the Cosmos, where we see how we can work on the transformation of ourselves and the world, all this is seen as an illusion, a work of the devil? While putting all our chips on an irrational whim in our soul is seen as manifestation of the highest Divine Intelligence?

[Stranger]

Eugene,

What is the precise metholodgy used by you, or these people you are putting your faith in, to investigate the planes across the threshold of death? I really hope it isn't only second and third hand accounts from NDE reports, regression therapy, hypnotic states, mediumship, etc. The planes across the threshold of death can be explored in full waking consciousness, with the thinking Ego intact, during normal life circumstances, without any other parties intervening. The results can be communicated in a philosophical and scientific way that is completely accessible to ordinary reasoning cognition, which is what Steiner, among the many Masters of the White Lodge, was uniquely gifted at doing. Even Theosophy was eventually permeated with a reliance on unconscious or semi-conscious mediumship for its half-baked spiritual research, which is a big reason Steiner broke company with that organization, and Theosophy is like an ivy league institution compared to the 'community colleges' you are finding on YouTube.

We don't want to hear arguments rooted in these third-hand accounts or in your subjective preferences and interests and feelings of soul-superiority. It's like basing your spiritual path on the friend of a friend who saw a car accident 200 years ago (because all of these same 'alternate views' emerged in occult circles of the left-hand path in the 19th century, if not earlier). What is your philosophical or scientific reasoning for the Truth of your anti-Light path? On this forum, continuing in the spirit of what Steiner and others started before, Cleric has presented dozens of illustrations of the higher worlds, the higher planes of consciousness and their lawful behavior, through metaphors which are accessible to our ordinary reasoning cognition, which don't require us to suspend all disbelief and believe in magical 'multiverses' where everything we desire to happen, happens. The latter is in keeping with modern pop culture, but it doesn't make the basis for a logically sound argument.

The me methodology is based upon these sources:
- The accounts from NDE reports, reincarnation memory case studies (Prof. Stevensen), regression therapy, hypnotic states, mediumship, pre-birth memories etc. At this time the amount of these accounts is so enormous that it would be silly to deny at least some reality and truth in them.
- The accounts and accumulated knowledge and spiritual experience form ancient traditions like Gnosticism, Buddhism, Hinduism
- My own spiritual experience.

All of the three above do not exactly converge in precise details, but nevertheless they overall confirm the view of the reality of the Demiurge's domain in the astral and material planes. They do not have to converge in details simply because, as we know from these sources, the realities in the astral and other nonphysical domains are not solid and can be easily created and changed by the beings living in these realms, so we should not look at the descriptions of the scenes and appearances in these realms, but at the essence of what is actually going on there. As opposed to Cleric, I'm not open to share my spiritual experiences publicly, simply because the realities in the spiritual reams that I am experiencing are so far from human realities that it is impossible to describe them in the human language. One thing I know for sure is that these realities of higher realms are completely at odds with the realities of human domain, and my human nature and experience does not help me anymore with my life and progress in these domains.

Knowing your and Cleric worldviews, I never hoped that you would agree to these views. Nevertheless, I feel a duty to make people aware of these views and a possibility that they might be true. I will leave for the readers to decide for themselves whether and how much the Anthroposophy have been influenced by the Demiurgic forces, I cannot make such judgement. As it usually happened with most traditions of the past, the original teachings would usually originate from generic messengers from outside of the Demiurge's domain, and then, when the religion or tradition started developing and got organized, an infusion of influence from people connected to the Demiurge would contaminate it with various practiced and views that would attempt to redirect the spiritual paths back into the Demiurge's domain, such as the practices of worship and submission to authorities, various myths about the appearances of the afterlife realities, suppressing spiritual sovereignty, developing feelings of guilt and insufficiency etc, so that the souls would be more easily manipulated back to the astral realm after death. The same may or may not happen to Anthroposophy, but I will leave it to the discretion of the practitioners. The purpose of this thread is not to criticize Anthroposophy or any other spiritual teaching or tradition, but to make people aware and warn them about the possibility of the Demiurge's deception being true.

But this quote from Steiner below and his insistence that we should remain tied to the human domain and that any intention to abandon it comes from Lucifer makes me quite suspicious. As we know according to the Gnostic tradition, Christ came to Earth exactly to help people to "abandon the path of earth evolution" and escape from the prison of the Demiurge's domain. Similar views are found in Buddhism and Hinduism where the minimum goal of the practice is to stop reincarnating in human and Brahma's realms. Anyway, I think at this point we should agree to disagree and probably stop as we discussed already all aspects of the topic, and should leave the question for the other members to answer for themselves.

Steiner:
Lucifer's intention was to convey the wisdom to humanity in such a way that it would induce people to abandon the path of earth evolution and take a path leading to a super-earthly sphere, a sphere aloof from the earth. The luciferic beings inculcated their wisdom into human beings but their desire was that it would make them turn away from the earth, without passing through earthly evolution. Lucifer wants to abandon the earth to its fate, to win humankind for a kingdom alien to the kingdom of Christ.

[Stranger]

Speaking of Demiurge, who would have the greatest interest for human souls to place all their chips on a random spot and patiently wait for death? If Source reaches with its Spirit in the elemental spectrum and thinks as intellect, why would it put itself in such a position that it has to play roulette? What of the following sounds as something that the highest Divine Being would say and what as something the Demiurge would say?

1/ It’s all broken mirrors. Your thinking is made of confusions over confusions. The conditions are unfavorable. Seek what feels ‘right’ and hold on to it until death.
2/ The conditions are more favorable than ever. I’m the Spirit that speaks through your intellectual voice. There’s no need to wait for death to know this as a fact. Start making the paths straight here and now you will know me. Not as a picture on the wall of phenomena but as the living current that animates your thinking from within your most intimate being.

As I said in my messages above, spiritual growth is possible under any conditions and we should keep going forward in any circumstances notwithstanding any hindrances, so I am all for 2/. Nevertheless, it would be silly to get stuck forever in circumstances severely adverse to the spiritual growth and impeding it. As I mentioned before, higher spiritual beings do not incarnate in hells exactly for that reason, and also do not incarnate as humans (except for saving missions). Again, souls can learn a lot from adversities, hardships, mistakes and sicknesses in order to develop immunity to them, but that is not a justification to remain stuck in such adverse conditions forever. Once the lessons are learnt and immunities gained, we should move on.