The realm of the Demiurge

[AshvinP]

Here we agree. But again, there is only 'nothing to lose' from placing bets of this magnitude if the Earthly plane is orthogonal to the higher worlds. Otherwise, what we think, feel, and do now is also what we have done and are doing and will do in the higher worlds - they are One and the same, only experienced from opposite poles of consciousness. Now we can quote reams of spiritual science which elaborate on the risks involved when one abandons their Divine duty to seek out the high ideals while on the Earthly plane. But none of that will register because it will be seen as a trick by the Demiurge. No matter how philosophical, scientific, and overall logically coherent it is, it will be felt that the Logos who lives within us must be the Demiurge as well, because it asks us for a devotional thinking effort. Anything which asks us for inner effort and redemptive sacrifice, which liberates us gradually, rhythmically, and harmoniously from the physical-sensory plane, is viewed with utmost suspicion, to the point where it is dismissed out of hand.

But what if the accounts you are referencing are wrong? (and we should be clear, there are plenty of testimonies which go in the opposite direction, but you will always say those are from weak souls who were deceived). What if the voice of conscience which tells us everything the Gods made is very good and deserves our sacrificial thinking effort, is not out to deceive us, but to guide us in the optimal path for growing our consciousness into the higher worlds during life and between death-rebirth? Have you considered this possibility? The steps needed to experience and verify this spiritual thinking activity for ourselves are not long and arduous. It could literally happen from something as simple as what Cleric wrote on another thread recently:

Good questions, and the answer is: do honest and open spiritual search, test everything based on your experience and use spiritual discernment.

Personally, of course, I only take the Demiurge as a hypothesis. I will find out once I live the body. But I need to be fully prepared for it. In the meantime I'm dedicating my time to spiritual practice as much as possible, this is what will help me to develop discernment among other spiritual abilities. But from what I know based on my nondual spiritual experience, I sense a lot of truth in the Buddhist and Advaitic teachings and from teachings of Christ when they are viewed from the nondual perspective, it all makes a lot of sense. Based on my studies of spiritual traditions and my own practical experience, attaining nondual state of consciousness is what is really crucial, while at the same time developing higher cognition, intuitive and imaginative thinking is also important, they really go hand-in-hand. Now, regarding the Demiurge: if he is real, I will meet him at the point of the departure from the body, and that is where my discernment and spiritual immunity will be tested, and if I fail, I'll go back to human form, not a big deal; and if I succeed, I will move on to nondual realms. If Demiurge is not real, great, I'll see what comes for me next but I still did my job while in the body.

“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”
Buddha

Do you think Absolute Beingness, in Its infinite Wisdom, would allow for the creation of the material world if it were not of value? Do you think that the Archangels would work unceasingly to construct and maintain the material planet and universe, keeping them in harmony, if it were not meant to be the home of the phenomenon of life? Our material bodies belong to the material world as our psychical bodies belong to the psychical world. It is a great honour to participate in this glorious earth as 'this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven' [Gen 28:17]. The flesh, though heavy at times, and the earth are sacred. It is a pity to degrade, in any way, this paradise for it 'is holy ground' [Ex 3:5]

Yes, he is repeating the Plotinus argument against the Gnostics. There are different ways to explain the creation of material realm and there are different possible scenarios.
- We know the standard Western theological explanation of God's creation to which this quote relates. It could be true, but IMO not likely according to my research and experience.
- Another one is that God is Consciousness with infinite creative potential, and realities are actually created only by its individuations, by beings, by gods-creators (this includes the Gnostic creation myth, as well as the Buddhist and Hinduist ones). These creator-beings might be at different stages of development and states of mind, so they create realities according to their states. All these creations and states, good or bad, distorted or clear, are always of value, they all bring about valuable experiences, be it suffering or joy, delusion or knowledge of truth, and then bring the experiences back to the Divine. Yet, there is no reason to get stuck in a distorted state of consciousness, and once the experience is gained and lessons learnt, the beings usually move on.
- Unfortunately, the discrepancy between the dualistic and nondual states were not known to Plotinus and Western Church fathers and theologians (except for Meister Eckhart), so they could not understand what exactly the "fall" means and what is exactly wrong and needs to be fixed with human nature. And the problem is not with matter and material world per se, there is nothing wrong with the Mother Earth, but the problem is with human mind structure with its genetically embedded dualistic perception of reality. It could be fixed while remaining in the material realm, may be by future genetic or AI technology, may be with the help of ET or nonmaterial beings, may be with the second coming of Christ, we will see. If that happens, material Earth would become a wonderful place for souls to incarnate into the "new man" (I will be first to jump in, but only if there is no memory wipe!).

What is your understanding of the etheric-life, astral-desire, and Ego-self members of the human organism - would you say it is vital for someone on the spiritual path to higher knowledge to know their functions, their interactions with one another and with the physical body, and how they allow us to participate within the higher planes of consciousness while we are incarnated? People use different names for them, but all genuine esoteric streams that I am aware of, East or West, are aware of this fourfold organization of the human being. We really need to find a common language here. The way you speak of the physical, soul, and spiritual worlds currently, it sounds like encapsulated bubbles or planes stacked on top of each other (of course not actually existing in space, but in terms of a strict separation between their lawful unfoldment). While we are incarnated, our whole body-soul-spirit organism lives on the physical plane, and then when we die, we discard the body and soul-spirit goes into the astral plane where it potentially meets the Demiurge, and if it succeeds in avoiding his chicanery, it can continue on to an infinite candy shop of higher planes to choose from where it can continue its development without reincarnating on Earth, but can voluntarily incarnate from time to time if it wants to help out the lost souls on Earth. Is that right? Do the souls in the pure abodes also influence Earthly happenings without incarnating and, if so, how?

[Cleric K]

But unfortunately, you chose to ignore it and remain very averted to the nondualism, while promoting a very compromised worldview of Anthroposophy which also rejects nondualism and supports full submission to the hierarchical system of the dualistic realms and continuous cycle of human reincarnations.

Eugene, you’re playing a very interesting game

As a simplified example, imagine a mountain peak that we can traverse up and down. Along the path there are signs and monumental stones with text. Near the bottom the text is clear English but as we climb up it begins to resemble some ancient script. At some point the runes become completely incomprehensible.

Let’s consider this transition point to be the boundary between the dual and non-dual. At that boundary all cognition collapses. It all turns into inexplicable experiencing of the beauty of the runes. I guess you’ll add here that only the dual cognition collapses, while non-dual cognition remains. Yet you’ll also say that they are quite orthogonal and it’s impossible to bridge them (only quantum jump between them).

Now imagine that someone tells you that he has learned to decipher the runic script and he has gone further than where you assumed the boundary to lie. He tells you some things of what he has deciphered and you find them quite disagreeable. You say “Obviously you have deciphered script that is still on the dual side. You haven’t reached the true boundary. If you had, you would have found that the script above is impossible to decipher.”

Thus the boundary between dual and non-dual turns out to be quite flexible. Basically, when we hear something that doesn’t fit our tastes, we simply adjust the ‘zero’ of the scale and rise it further up.

In other words, the inexplicable higher half-plane serves as a very convenient wildcard. We can invest in it whatever our heart desires. When we look through NDEs, through yt videos, spiritual texts and so on, for anything that fits our tastes we say “that’s wise, clearly inspired from the non-dual half-plane.” When we find something disagreeable we say “clearly this person has been dabbling in the lower dual regions and has fallen victim to the Demiurge.”

But the strongest trump card is that the non-dual half-plane is by definition inexplicable. All human cognition collapses there. This gives us the power to very conveniently dismiss anything that proceeds from ordinary or even higher cognition. All we need to do is simply say: “You’ve been dabbling in the lower regions. If you have gone a little higher you would have confirmed that everything becomes inexplicable. The fact that you’re finding words to express these regions in itself proves that you haven’t reached the non-dual worlds. If you had, you would know that these realities can only be experienced but not put into images and words.”

That’s why our conversations always end up in the same way, no matter how eloquently we try to speak of things. As soon as you hear something that you dislike, you simply slide the zero of the scale and say that we’re dabbling in the swamps, very far from the inexplicability of pure experiencing of the non-dual half-plane.

This raises one question in me. Imagine for a moment that Steiner spoke thus: “With Imagination, Inspiration and Intuition we live in the higher order script of reality, including non-dual regions. There we discover that after death, if we don’t hold any desires for the sensory world, we’re completely free and can choose whatever occupation we want (this reminds me of David’s post-incarnational careers ).”

Now if these were actual Steiner’s words, would you say “here’s a wise non-dual teacher”? Would you consider that the non-dual half-plane may not be that inexplicable after all but simply we haven’t developed the corresponding non-dual forms of cognition which can resonate with these levels of being? Would that even spark your interest into these forms of meditation if they seemed to expand consciousness in the non-dual spheres, where we live consciously and can precipitate the happenings there into symbolic images and concepts? Would you consider that he may be describing the good, non-dual hierarchies?

In short, if you investigate your motives honestly, would you say that it is really your dislike for the message that he brings from the higher forms of cognition, which impels you to adjust the zero above him, and completely dismiss the actual path of development as curious but unnecessary, since it addresses only the lower half-plane (if it addressed the higher half-plane you would have expected a different message)?

[Stranger]

This raises one question in me. Imagine for a moment that Steiner spoke thus: “With Imagination, Inspiration and Intuition we live in the higher order script of reality, including non-dual regions. There we discover that after death, if we don’t hold any desires for the sensory world, we’re completely free and can choose whatever occupation we want (this reminds me of David’s post-incarnational careers ).”

Now if these were actual Steiner’s words, would you say “here’s a wise non-dual teacher”? Would you consider that the non-dual half-plane may not be that inexplicable after all but simply we haven’t developed the corresponding non-dual forms of cognition which can resonate with these levels of being? Would that even spark your interest into these forms of meditation if they seemed to expand consciousness in the non-dual spheres, where we live consciously and can precipitate the happenings there into symbolic images and concepts? Would you consider that he may be describing the good, non-dual hierarchies?

In short, if you investigate your motives honestly, would you say that it is really your dislike for the message that he brings from the higher forms of cognition, which impels you to adjust the zero above him, and completely dismiss the actual path of development as curious but unnecessary, since it addresses only the lower half-plane (if it addressed the higher half-plane you would have expected a different message)?

OK, good questions. Nondual state is not a mindless non-cognitive "soup" state at all (as even some nonduality teachers would claim). In its developed capacity, it's a quite active state of consciousness with its cognitive, imaginative and willing capacities fully functional, it's just based on a different perception of reality. So, the nondual realm is actually explicable, we just need to develop somewhat different cognitive faculties and different conceptual apparatus for that (which unfortunately human language and range of available meanings is not fit for).

I never disagreed with Steiner about usefulness of developing imaginative, inspirational and intuitive thinking aspects, in fact I am practicing them (I tried some Steiner's exercises but I'm now practicing them in my own way trying to combine with nondual practice) and I find this portion of Steiner's teachings quite useful. What I find missing in Anthroposophy is nonduality. So yes, if he would, in addition to all he already has, add the nondual perspective and practice, and leave the decision for the soul to incarnate or not back into human form freely according to its own discretion, than I would more fully subscribe to it. But from what I found, all spiritual teachings and practices, both ancient or modern, are always incomplete in one way or another, so I quit expecting to find the "full and final truth" in them. They only provide insights and practical tools to guide the soul on the journey, it is up to us to apply them wisely and progress on the path. So, I have no high expectations for Anthroposophy, or for any other teachings or practices for that matter. As long as they have some useful insights and practices then it's good enough.

Now, regarding your question about the value of the development of the knowledge of the structures and spheres of the dualistic realm, it definitely has value and usefulness for those who are interested. But I know I am leaving the dualistic realm and heading to the nondual one, so I better spend my limited time and efforts of human lifetime doing the same R&D but in the nondual realms. I still think it is important to study and know the "anatomy" of different energetic spheres of the body, and that is what Eastern yogis have been doing for centuries while practicing in nondual traditions. So, the spiritual anatomy and science applies both to dualistic and nondual states and studying it definitely has its usefulness.

The problem, as I said before, is actually not in the "substance" composition of spheres and bodies, not in the material or astral levels of it. The body can be still composed of all those layers from material to etheric, astral and so on. The key is in how the cognition and perception of reality is structured and how it functions, and specifically, if the mechanism of perception and cognition is dualistic or nondual. I believe both could be adapted down to the material dimension. But as I said, adapting it to nondual cognition would require a radical rewiring of the structure of human material mind and cognition mechanisms on all those energetic levels, which in the material realm has to be done on the genetic level, and at this point I have no clue how to technically accomplish this. But until it happens, I consider human body unfit for the life in the nondual state of consciousness.

What is your understanding of the etheric-life, astral-desire, and Ego-self members of the human organism - would you say it is vital for someone on the spiritual path to higher knowledge to know their functions, their interactions with one another and with the physical body, and how they allow us to participate within the higher planes of consciousness while we are incarnated? People use different names for them, but all genuine esoteric streams that I am aware of, East or West, are aware of this fourfold organization of the human being. We really need to find a common language here. The way you speak of the physical, soul, and spiritual worlds currently, it sounds like encapsulated bubbles or planes stacked on top of each other (of course not actually existing in space, but in terms of a strict separation between their lawful unfoldment).

I think I addressed some of these questions above. These are very difficult questions, we are at the frontier of the spiritual science, and I do not have all clear answers to them. I'm not a fully realized person, only an intermediate-level nondual practitioner, and my knowledge is limited. Also, as I said, I really don't know how to describe in human language my nondual perception, I never tried to translate it into human concepts, which, as I said, does not mean it's in principle inexplicable, it simply means that I do not know how to translate the intuitive meanings of that reality into the human language. I'm afraid if I try it would not make any sense. This is why nondual masters usually say that nondual reality is "ineffable", not because it is totally beyond cognitive capacities to grasp, but because human dualistic conceptual apparatus is simply not fit for that.

But to roughly answer this, yes, I sense these various levels of spiritual activity according to their so-to-speak "vibrational level", with human emotions and passions in the "astral" level closely interconnected to the body, and higher intuitive, imaginative, inspirational, free-willing, aesthetic (and some other "layers" that I don't even have names for) kind of functioning at higher vibrational layers less related to the physical body. I don't have psychic capacities to see them visually and I don't know if they are structured like spheres or in any other way, but I definitely sense a whole range of these spiritual activities on various levels and different "modules" of the consciousness organism. Now, the most mysterious one happens in the spheres where the nondual perception and cognition happens, and I sense that this sphere is quite distant from the physical and astral planes, while still interacting with them. This is where I try to spend much of my spiritual activity and practice. It basically still happens around those intuitive, imaginative, inspirational, free-willing and aesthetic levels, but kind of in a different nondual way of functioning. Well, this is the best way I can describe it, if it makes any sense.

While we are incarnated, our whole body-soul-spirit organism lives on the physical plane, and then when we die, we discard the body and soul-spirit goes into the astral plane where it potentially meets the Demiurge, and if it succeeds in avoiding his chicanery, it can continue on to an infinite candy shop of higher planes to choose from where it can continue its development without reincarnating on Earth, but can voluntarily incarnate from time to time if it wants to help out the lost souls on Earth. Is that right?

Well, yes, providing that the Demiurge is real.

Do the souls in the pure abodes also influence Earthly happenings without incarnating and, if so, how?

I believe they do. Basically, I feel that this "module" of nondual cognition in my consciousness already resides in the pure abodes. In that sense, when I leave the body, I do not need to "travel" anywhere, I will just stay there. The question is what other bodies and cognitive faculties I will need to retain (etheric, astral, others?). That I do not know and will figure out when I'm there. At times I have unexpected intuitive insights and inspirations on that level happening "out of the blue", which I believe are probably communications from other beings in those pure abodes that try to inspire and support me on my journey (which I'm really grateful for). Once I had a strong sense of presence of Ramana Maharshi with a kind of "transmission" of his nondual state of consciousness onto me, I think that was his way of teaching me. So yes, I believe such influence is possible and is actually happening. But the problem is, for the souls in the dualistic states enclosed in the bubble of the illusion of separation and dualistic perception, it is really hard for these influences from the pure abodes to penetrate that bubble, and even if such communication happens (I'm sure they are trying from time to time), it is very subtle and usually gets lost and ignored among a bombardment of the inner chatter, egoic desires and passions. I think because of that ignoring the nondual beings only try to influence people when they feel they are ready to listen, otherwise it's just a waste of efforts.

So, it's just like Jesus said,
"For the hearts of these people are hardened, and their ears cannot hear, and they have closed their eyes— so their eyes cannot see, and their ears cannot hear, and their hearts cannot understand, and they cannot turn to me and let me heal them." (Matthew 13:15)
and
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" (John 10:27)

[AshvinP]

What is your understanding of the etheric-life, astral-desire, and Ego-self members of the human organism - would you say it is vital for someone on the spiritual path to higher knowledge to know their functions, their interactions with one another and with the physical body, and how they allow us to participate within the higher planes of consciousness while we are incarnated? People use different names for them, but all genuine esoteric streams that I am aware of, East or West, are aware of this fourfold organization of the human being. We really need to find a common language here. The way you speak of the physical, soul, and spiritual worlds currently, it sounds like encapsulated bubbles or planes stacked on top of each other (of course not actually existing in space, but in terms of a strict separation between their lawful unfoldment).

I think I addressed some of these questions above. These are very difficult questions, we are at the frontier of the spiritual science, and I do not have all clear answers to them. I'm not a fully realized person, only an intermediate-level nondual practitioner, and my knowledge is limited. Also, as I said, I really don't know how to describe in human language my nondual perception, I never tried to translate it into human concepts, which, as I said, does not mean it's in principle inexplicable, it simply means that I do not know how to translate the intuitive meanings of that reality into the human language. I'm afraid if I try it would not make any sense. This is why nondual masters usually say that nondual reality is "ineffable", not because it is totally beyond cognitive capacities to grasp, but because human dualistic conceptual apparatus is simply not fit for that.

But to roughly answer this, yes, I sense these various levels of spiritual activity according to their so-to-speak "vibrational level", with human emotions and passions in the "astral" level closely interconnected to the body, and higher intuitive, imaginative, inspirational, free-willing, aesthetic (and some other "layers" that I don't even have names for) kind of functioning at higher vibrational layers less related to the physical body. I don't have psychic capacities to see them visually and I don't know if they are structured like spheres or in any other way, but I definitely sense a whole range of these spiritual activities on various levels and different "modules" of the consciousness organism. Now, the most mysterious one happens in the spheres where the nondual perception and cognition happens, and I sense that this sphere is quite distant from the physical and astral planes, while still interacting with them. This is where I try to spend much of my spiritual activity and practice. It basically still happens around those intuitive, imaginative, inspirational, free-willing and aesthetic levels, but kind of in a different nondual way of functioning. Well, this is the best way I can describe it, if it makes any sense.

I think we probably all agree, the most powerful 'nondual' realization comes when our experience of normal waking consciousness begins to unite more and more with that of the Divine consciousness, which you are referring to as the highest consciousness which is ineffable for our current language. In that sense, even if the lower planes which resonate with the vibrations of our etheric and astral bodies maintain a certain 'dualism', penetrating them with our waking consciousness actually bridges the discontinuity of experience more than if we simply alternate between normal waking consciousness and ineffable nondual consciousness. With the latter, we may have a very powerful experience of Oneness at some times, but then we must return to ordinary dualistic cognition when we are going about our daily tasks and we can't even communicate that experience with others.

Imagine during normal waking consciousness you can also perceive (in a cognitive sense, which may or may not also take concrete visual form) the etheric bodies of the plant kingdom around you, and the astral bodies of the animal and human kingdoms. You can perceive the luminous, textured auras which reflect states of desires, feelings, and thoughts. You know how thought-forms take shape and permeate the environment. This can be done to the extent that the dynamics, the principles, laws, and specific cause-effect chains, can be described with scientific precision, as we also describe the normal perecptual spectrum. Does this not bridge the discontinuity between dual and nonudal more? Are you suspicious that such a thing can be done simply because it implies a lawful structure for the soul-spirit life, like the science of physical biology also describes a lawful 'nested hierarchy' of cells, tissues, organs, systems, organisms?

Do the souls in the pure abodes also influence Earthly happenings without incarnating and, if so, how?

I believe they do. Basically, I feel that this "module" of nondual cognition in my consciousness already resides in the pure abodes. In that sense, when I leave the body, I do not need to "travel" anywhere, I will just stay there. The question is what other bodies and cognitive faculties I will need to retain (etheric, astral, others?). That I do not know and will figure out when I'm there. At times I have unexpected intuitive insights and inspirations on that level happening "out of the blue", which I believe are probably communications from other beings in those pure abodes that try to inspire and support me on my journey (which I'm really grateful for). Once I had a strong sense of presence of Ramana Maharshi with a kind of "transmission" of his nondual state of consciousness onto me, I think that was his way of teaching me. So yes, I believe such influence is possible and is actually happening. But the problem is, for the souls in the dualistic states enclosed in the bubble of the illusion of separation and dualistic perception, it is really hard for these influences from the pure abodes to penetrate that bubble, and even if such communication happens (I'm sure they are trying from time to time), it is very subtle and usually gets lost and ignored among a bombardment of the inner chatter, egoic desires and passions. I think because of that ignoring the nondual beings only try to influence people when they feel they are ready to listen, otherwise it's just a waste of efforts.

So, it's just like Jesus said,
"For the hearts of these people are hardened, and their ears cannot hear, and they have closed their eyes— so their eyes cannot see, and their ears cannot hear, and their hearts cannot understand, and they cannot turn to me and let me heal them." (Matthew 13:15)
and
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" (John 10:27)

The major difference here is that we say the 'nondual beings' on higher planes are always influencing our Earthly states of being, not by sending us thought-communications in the sense you describe it above, hoping they get through and some people hear them and act accordingly, but through what we know as the laws of the physics, the laws of chemistry-biology, the laws of psychology (soul-life), the laws of cognitive science, the laws of economics, sociology, political governance, aesthetics, etc. Those laws reflect to us nothing other than the spiritual activity of these nondual beings, including the human souls traveling through the higher planes before reincarnating and those who have fulfilled their Karma and decided to stop incarnating. These are all superimposed planes of activity which 'interfere' to result in what we call 'Earthly experience', with all of its lawful dynamics we are accustomed to and take for granted. The higher activity is always 'bending' the space of possibilities for the lower spaces, and the actualized experiences of the lower spaces feeding back into the higher activity, and what we experience on Earth, only dimly with our ordinary cognition, is that entire holistic process. Do you see just how big of a difference this is and how our whole view of the Earth-Heaven polarity transforms?

[Stranger]

I think we probably all agree, the most powerful 'nondual' realization comes when our experience of normal waking consciousness begins to unite more and more with that of the Divine consciousness, which you are referring to as the highest consciousness which is ineffable for our current language. In that sense, even if the lower planes which resonate with the vibrations of our etheric and astral bodies maintain a certain 'dualism', penetrating them with our waking consciousness actually bridges the discontinuity of experience more than if we simply alternate between normal waking consciousness and ineffable nondual consciousness. With the latter, we may have a very powerful experience of Oneness at some times, but then we must return to ordinary dualistic cognition when we are going about our daily tasks.

This sounds about right, I can't believe we actually agreed on something

Imagine during normal waking consciousness you can also perceive (in a cognitive sense, which may or may not also take concrete visual form) the etheric bodies of the plant kingdom around you, and the astral bodies of the animal and human kingdoms. You can perceive the luminous, textured auras which reflect states of desires, feelings, and thoughts. You know how thought-forms take shape and permeate the environment. This can be done to the extent that the dynamics, the principles, laws, and specific cause-effect chains, can be described with scientific precision, as we also describe the normal perecptual spectrum. Does this not bridge the discontinuity between dual and nonudal more? Are you suspicious that such a thing can be done simply because it implies a lawful structure for the soul-spirit life, like the science of physical biology also describes a lawful 'nested hierarchy' of cells, tissues, organs, systems, organisms?

Well, from my nondual perspective, I do not see those beings "residing" in the bodies that I sensually/visually perceive. They reside in their spaces of consciousness (fields of conscious experience), and the visual picture that we see is only an "interface" for communication so to speak. But what you said still happens, I do feel a presence of their consciousness with all the layers/levels, not visually but sort of intuitively-imaginatively. I sometimes hug trees and try to communicate with them (when other people don't see me so I don't look like a lunatic )

The major difference here is that we say the 'nondual beings' on higher planes are always influencing our Earthly states of being, not by sending us thought-communications in the sense you describe it above, hoping they get through and some people hear them and act accordingly, but through what we know as the laws of the physics, the laws of chemistry-biology, the laws of psychology (soul-life), the laws of cognitive science. Those laws reflect to us nothing other than the spiritual activity of these nondual beings, including the human souls traveling through the higher planes before reincarnating and those who have fulfilled their Karma and decided to stop incarnating. These are all superimposed planes of activity which 'interfere' to result in what we call 'Earthly experience', with all of its lawful dynamics we are accustomed to and take for granted. The higher activity is always 'bending' the space of possibilities for the lower spaces, and the actualized experiences of the lower spaces feeding back into the higher activity, and what we experience on Earth, only dimly with our ordinary cognition, is that entire holistic process. Do you see just how big of a difference this is and how our whole view of the Earth-Heaven polarity transforms?

Right, that happens on the physical level too, but more on the level of lawful mechanisms, they are indeed set up on higher levels, but they work in a more "mechanical" way so to speak. The physical level is pretty much predetermined by strict physical laws, but the laws are such that they allow an enormous range of possibilities and choices to be made on the mind level. On other levels there is also this type of "bending" of the space of possibilities happening with those beings projecting unto us their meanings and "curvatures", while still leaving a lot of room for our own choices and activity. But since there is a lot of planes and abodes out there with a lot of "groups of interests", there is also a lot of these projected curvatures, and it is up to us to choose which "wave" to ride on. So, this process is not one-dimensional and not deterministic, there is a superimposition of these curvatures happening simultaneously, it's like a radio that receives all the stations from all wavelengths, but only tunes to the one of its choice at a time. This analogy is not accurate as we can still be tuned to multiple curvatures at a time (as opposed to radio). For example, I feel that I'm in communication with a group of musical beings residing in their esthetic realm (I once had a very vivid dream and heard their beautiful music), so at times when I have musical inspiration I'm more tuned to their influences/curvatures, but at other times I'm more tuned to the nondual pure abodes. And sometimes I can be tuned to both simultaneously when I'm playing music while in the nondual state. So, overall, I think it happens in both ways: through projected curvatures as you said, and through personal communications.

As Jesus said, "In my Father's house are many mansions" (John 14:1).

[AshvinP]

I think we probably all agree, the most powerful 'nondual' realization comes when our experience of normal waking consciousness begins to unite more and more with that of the Divine consciousness, which you are referring to as the highest consciousness which is ineffable for our current language. In that sense, even if the lower planes which resonate with the vibrations of our etheric and astral bodies maintain a certain 'dualism', penetrating them with our waking consciousness actually bridges the discontinuity of experience more than if we simply alternate between normal waking consciousness and ineffable nondual consciousness. With the latter, we may have a very powerful experience of Oneness at some times, but then we must return to ordinary dualistic cognition when we are going about our daily tasks.

This sounds about right, I can't believe we actually agreed on something

Imagine during normal waking consciousness you can also perceive (in a cognitive sense, which may or may not also take concrete visual form) the etheric bodies of the plant kingdom around you, and the astral bodies of the animal and human kingdoms. You can perceive the luminous, textured auras which reflect states of desires, feelings, and thoughts. You know how thought-forms take shape and permeate the environment. This can be done to the extent that the dynamics, the principles, laws, and specific cause-effect chains, can be described with scientific precision, as we also describe the normal perecptual spectrum. Does this not bridge the discontinuity between dual and nonudal more? Are you suspicious that such a thing can be done simply because it implies a lawful structure for the soul-spirit life, like the science of physical biology also describes a lawful 'nested hierarchy' of cells, tissues, organs, systems, organisms?

Well, from my nondual perspective, I do not see those beings "residing" in the bodies that I sensually/visually perceive. They reside in their spaces of consciousness (fields of conscious experience), and the visual picture that we see is only an "interface" for communication so to speak. But what you said still happens, I do feel a presence of their consciousness with all the layers/levels, not visually but sort of intuitively-imaginatively. I sometimes hug trees and try to communicate with them (when other people don't see me so I don't look like a lunatic )

Certainly not, just as we don't 'reside' only in our physical bodies. But the 'field of consciousness' encompasses all of the bodily instruments and attenuates to different planes of consciousness depending on the mode of cognition.

So you agree that what you feel intuitive-imaginatively right now, in respect to the supra-sensory aspects of the Earthly environment, can be made more concrete, to the point where it is systematically understood with scientific precision? Do you also agree that this is critical work for human beings to begin carrying out so as to bridge the Earthly and higher planes of consciousness? Then we are not left with cultural institutions which only focus on the physical dynamics of chemistry, biology, physiology, neuroscience, etc., and others which focus on philosophy, aesthetics, and spirituality, which must necessarily remain fragmented, but these spiral together and unite the fragmented humanity in more harmonious understanding, intentions, and goals. And if not people like you and me and others on this forum to carry out this work, then whom?

The major difference here is that we say the 'nondual beings' on higher planes are always influencing our Earthly states of being, not by sending us thought-communications in the sense you describe it above, hoping they get through and some people hear them and act accordingly, but through what we know as the laws of the physics, the laws of chemistry-biology, the laws of psychology (soul-life), the laws of cognitive science. Those laws reflect to us nothing other than the spiritual activity of these nondual beings, including the human souls traveling through the higher planes before reincarnating and those who have fulfilled their Karma and decided to stop incarnating. These are all superimposed planes of activity which 'interfere' to result in what we call 'Earthly experience', with all of its lawful dynamics we are accustomed to and take for granted. The higher activity is always 'bending' the space of possibilities for the lower spaces, and the actualized experiences of the lower spaces feeding back into the higher activity, and what we experience on Earth, only dimly with our ordinary cognition, is that entire holistic process. Do you see just how big of a difference this is and how our whole view of the Earth-Heaven polarity transforms?

Right, that happens on the physical level too, but more on the level of lawful mechanisms, they are indeed set up on higher levels, but they work in a more "mechanical" way so to speak. The physical level is pretty much predetermined by strict physical laws, but the laws are such that they allow an enormous range of possibilities and choices to be made on the mind level. On other levels there is also this type of "bending" of the space of possibilities happening with those beings projecting unto us their meanings and "curvatures", while still leaving a lot of room for our own choices and activity. But since there is a lot of planes and abodes out there with a lot of "groups of interests", there is also a lot of these projected curvatures, and it is up to us to choose which "wave" to ride on. So, this process is not one-dimensional and not deterministic, there is a superimposition of these curvatures happening simultaneously, it's like a radio that receives all the stations from all wavelengths, but only tunes to the one of its choice at a time. This analogy is not accurate as we can still be tuned to multiple curvatures at a time (as opposed to radio). For example, I feel that I'm in communication with a group of musical beings residing in their esthetic realm (I once had a very vivid dream and heard their beautiful music), so at times when I have musical inspiration I'm more tuned to their influences/curvatures, but at other times I'm more tuned to the nondual pure abodes. And sometimes I can be tuned to both simultaneously when I'm playing music while in the nondual state. So, overall, I think it happens in both ways: through projected curvatures as you said, and through personal communications.

As Jesus said, "In my Father's house are many mansions" (John 14:1).

These 'spaces' are always interpentrating within one another, right? For ex., if I have the idea to take a walk in the park, this must work against the constraints of the physical space with its lawful structure. I can't simply teleport to the park, but must leave the house, commute there, and go for a walk, dragging my spiritual activity against the forces of gravity, aerodynamics, etc. Yet then I also have constraints in my biological life with its lawful strcuture - maybe I am asthmatic, so my idea is further constrained. I need to properly prepare for the walk and limit my distance so I don't over-exert myself. Here we already enter the realm of spaces where our self-conscious development can clearly loosen the constraints and find additional leeway for expressing the idea. We may be able to do certain meditative breathing exercises to mitigate the asthmatic condition. I also have the constraints of my soul-life and its lawful structure - maybe I have a strong antipathy for strangers in public places, so this works to constrain my idea further. I feel compelled to pick a time and plan a route which avoids other people, but there is even more potential for my spiritual activity to loosen the constraints in the soul-space and thereby avoid its compulsive habits. Then there are the constraints of my thinking space - maybe I have certain opinions, beliefs, theories which make me only interested in paying attention to certain aspects of the park and not others. That is a further constraint on the expression of my idea to 'walk in the park', but of course my spiritual activity has the most potential for finding additional leeway here, if I closely examine my various thought-prejudices.

So the idea is always modulated by all these overlapping spaces, which lawfully interact with one another but cannot be reduced to each other. My thinking space cannot be reduced to my soul space, my soul space to my biological space, or my biological space to my physical space. We can't find the causes for my ideas-thoughts in the physical forces, life forces, or soul forces. This is the 'superposition of curvatures' you reference. Notice there is a still a 'hierarchical' lawful structure here. All our scientific endeavors in the world take this nested structure for granted, and are only possible because of it, even if most people don't understand it. Everything we are doing right now on this forum to mutually investigate supra-sensory realities is also taking place through that structure. Now if all of this is a reflection of spiritual activity within the higher planes, then how can we avoid concluding the latter is also lawfully structured? If we stick with only our dispassionate logical reasoning, and thereby mitigate the conditioned desires and preferences of our soul and thinking spaces which constrain our spiritual activity, is it reasonable to conclude that we can actually "choose which waves to ride on", at this very moment, independently of this lawful structure which we must gradually navigate with our spiritual activity to find ever-increasing leeway?

[Cleric K]

OK, thanks Eugene. This gives me a clearer picture of the situation. I won't go much further in that direction in order to avoid additional rescaling of the zero

I think a fruitful direction could be to follow the thread implied in Ashvin's last post. It really provides the means to seek the essential nature of the spiritual activity that is common to both the nondual and dual mode (the nondual is concealed within the rigid forms of the dual). I guess you'll agree that there must be an overarching element in these. If they were perfectly orthogonal states then it wouldn't be possible for the dual intellect to know about the existence of a nondual mode and vice versa.

I never disagreed with Steiner about usefulness of developing imaginative, inspirational and intuitive thinking aspects, in fact I am practicing them (I tried some Steiner's exercises but I'm now practicing them in my own way trying to combine with nondual practice) and I find this portion of Steiner's teachings quite useful.

Here it would be very interesting for me to hear in what way you have modified the practices to make them more nondual? As I wrote above, at the core of higher development is to continuously seek a more stable perspective within the nondual spiritual dynamics such that from there we can trace how our intellectual (dual) self is really the higher spirit forced to metamorphose its state through more constrained configuration spaces. Many metaphors have been given for this, for example - the suit, which represents both the physical, life, emotional and intellectual state spaces that the nondual spirit is forced to traverse.

Let's summarize things thus: in one way or another, the nondual state would still be roughly describable as exploration of phase/configuration/state space. Let's be clear about the word 'space'. There's absolutely no need to fantasize these spaces as things in themselves, existing somewhere out there. The word space is only a symbol for the first-person fact that our states of being - dual or nondual - metamorphose not completely arbitrarily but according to certain lawfulness. It is our holistic intuition of the lawfulness through which our states are capable to transform, that we call colloquially 'space'.

So at all levels of being, our most intimate force of becoming is akin to steering through these spaces, we will our becoming through the lawfulness of these spaces. In the intellectual (dual) self these spaces are much more constrictive and when our nondual spiritual essence wills its becoming through these spaces, the experience is like going through sequences of thought-states - verbal, logical, mathematical and so on. It's like our states of being are quantized. Similarly to the way electrons can only snap into specific states within the electron shells, so our spiritual steering within intellectual space snaps into the slots of concepts.

All of this is once again only another rendition of what Ashvin said above. By continually trying to concentrate our nondual becoming, such that we resist the usual geodesics of the more constrained spaces, we come to know more of our nondual being (through the leeway that opens). Would it be correct to say that your modifications of the exercises consists in the fact that you're not so much interested in knowing your nondual being by breathing in and out of the lower order configuration spaces (which for example would require you to feel creatively responsible for every curve of your thinking intellectual voice) but instead you aim directly to merge with the feeling of being one with that free nondual being, which after death will traverse higher order configuration spaces? In other words, would it be correct to say that you see the exploration of how your nondual spiritual activity is formatted into sequences of intellectual states, bent by emotional and other spaces, as an interesting but optional endeavor, while the direct route is to simply seek oneness with the being in the higher order spaces, without caring too much how it becomes the sense of self in the lower?

[Stranger]

So you agree that what you feel intuitive-imaginatively right now, in respect to the supra-sensory aspects of the Earthly environment, can be made more concrete, to the point where it is systematically understood with scientific precision? Do you also agree that this is critical work for human beings to begin carrying out so as to bridge the Earthly and higher planes of consciousness? Then we are not left with cultural institutions which only focus on the physical dynamics of chemistry, biology, physiology, neuroscience, etc., and others which focus on philosophy, aesthetics, and spirituality, which must necessarily remain fragmented, but these spiral together and unite the fragmented humanity in more harmonious understanding, intentions, and goals. And if not people like you and me and others on this forum to carry out this work, then whom?

Sure, there is a value and importance of such spiritual science development. But that does not mean everyone on the spiritual path has to be the actively working spiritual scientist. Like in human realm science, it is a special profession, not for everyone, requires special skills and a lot of work. The rest of the people do not have to be scientists, they can simply learn about the result of the work. So sure, if you want to be the one, go for it. But not for me, sorry, I have too much on my plate I will be interested in learning about your research results though.

These 'spaces' are always interpentrating within one another, right? For ex., if I have the idea to take a walk in the park, this must work against the constraints of the physical space with its lawful structure. I can't simply teleport to the park, but must leave the house, commute there, and go for a walk, dragging my spiritual activity against the forces of gravity, aerodynamics, etc. Yet then I also have constraints in my biological life with its lawful strcuture - maybe I am asthmatic, so my idea is further constrained. I need to properly prepare for the walk and limit my distance so I don't over-exert myself. Here we already enter the realm of spaces where our self-conscious development can clearly loosen the constraints and find additional leeway for expressing the idea. We may be able to do certain meditative breathing exercises to mitigate the asthmatic condition. I also have the constraints of my soul-life and its lawful structure - maybe I have a strong antipathy for strangers in public places, so this works to constrain my idea further. I feel compelled to pick a time and plan a route which avoids other people, but there is even more potential for my spiritual activity to loosen the constraints in the soul-space and thereby avoid its compulsive habits. Then there are the constraints of my thinking space - maybe I have certain opinions, beliefs, theories which make me only interested in paying attention to certain aspects of the park and not others. That is a further constraint on the expression of my idea to 'walk in the park', but of course my spiritual activity has the most potential for finding additional leeway here, if I closely examine my various thought-prejudices.

So the idea is always modulated by all these overlapping spaces, which lawfully interact with one another but cannot be reduced to each other. My thinking space cannot be reduced to my soul space, my soul space to my biological space, or my biological space to my physical space. We can't find the causes for my ideas-thoughts in the physical forces, life forces, or soul forces. This is the 'superposition of curvatures' you reference. Notice there is a still a 'hierarchical' lawful structure here. All our scientific endeavors in the world take this nested structure for granted, and are only possible because of it, even if most people don't understand it. Everything we are doing right now on this forum to mutually investigate supra-sensory realities is also taking place through that structure. Now if all of this is a reflection of spiritual activity within the higher planes, then how can we avoid concluding the latter is also lawfully structured? If we stick with only our dispassionate logical reasoning, and thereby mitigate the conditioned desires and preferences of our soul and thinking spaces which constrain our spiritual activity, is it reasonable to conclude that we can actually "choose which waves to ride on", at this very moment, independently of this lawful structure which we must gradually navigate with our spiritual activity to find ever-increasing leeway?

That definitely has truth in it, but if you push this model to the extreme, the spiritual activity will become totally deterministic, at least on our human level, we will be like robots always following pre-determined lawful curvatures with no room for free will, and I don't think this model would conform to reality. The important point is: we are not some weak and stupid lost baby souls that need to be guided by higher order-beings in every little step. We are, literally everyone, are actually God itself in its individuation, with the full range of thinking and creative capacities, including free will. We need to learn how to use it properly though, and to learn it, we need to train ourselves to exercise this free will with discernment and wisdom. Also, being God-individuations, we have a full capacity to create and co-create the new meanings and affect or change these lawful structures and curvatures (to certain limits of course, because they are the result of the collective creation). So, this lawful structure is a complex interplay of co-creation activities of all involved beings exercising their free will.

For example, if I compose music, of course I am constrained by the frameworks and limitations of the existing musical instruments, harmonic structures, influences from existing musical forms and styles and so on. But notwithstanding that structure, I still have a lot of freedom to shape and compose the music as I feel I need to, where I will use my own intuitive, esthetic and creative abilities to create a new musical form that never existed before, and that is where the real creative process unfolds. When the composition is done, it will further contribute to the collective realm of musical forms and slightly change the curvature of the musical meanings affecting the future unfolding of this musical space.

[AshvinP]

So you agree that what you feel intuitive-imaginatively right now, in respect to the supra-sensory aspects of the Earthly environment, can be made more concrete, to the point where it is systematically understood with scientific precision? Do you also agree that this is critical work for human beings to begin carrying out so as to bridge the Earthly and higher planes of consciousness? Then we are not left with cultural institutions which only focus on the physical dynamics of chemistry, biology, physiology, neuroscience, etc., and others which focus on philosophy, aesthetics, and spirituality, which must necessarily remain fragmented, but these spiral together and unite the fragmented humanity in more harmonious understanding, intentions, and goals. And if not people like you and me and others on this forum to carry out this work, then whom?

Sure, there is a value and importance of such spiritual science development. But that does not mean everyone on the spiritual path has to be the actively working spiritual scientist. Like in human realm science, it is a special profession, not for everyone, requires special skills and a lot of work. The rest of the people do not have to be scientists, they can simply learn about the result of the work. So sure, if you want to be the one, go for it. But not for me, sorry, I have too much on my plate I will be interested in learning about your research results though.

These 'spaces' are always interpentrating within one another, right? For ex., if I have the idea to take a walk in the park, this must work against the constraints of the physical space with its lawful structure. I can't simply teleport to the park, but must leave the house, commute there, and go for a walk, dragging my spiritual activity against the forces of gravity, aerodynamics, etc. Yet then I also have constraints in my biological life with its lawful strcuture - maybe I am asthmatic, so my idea is further constrained. I need to properly prepare for the walk and limit my distance so I don't over-exert myself. Here we already enter the realm of spaces where our self-conscious development can clearly loosen the constraints and find additional leeway for expressing the idea. We may be able to do certain meditative breathing exercises to mitigate the asthmatic condition. I also have the constraints of my soul-life and its lawful structure - maybe I have a strong antipathy for strangers in public places, so this works to constrain my idea further. I feel compelled to pick a time and plan a route which avoids other people, but there is even more potential for my spiritual activity to loosen the constraints in the soul-space and thereby avoid its compulsive habits. Then there are the constraints of my thinking space - maybe I have certain opinions, beliefs, theories which make me only interested in paying attention to certain aspects of the park and not others. That is a further constraint on the expression of my idea to 'walk in the park', but of course my spiritual activity has the most potential for finding additional leeway here, if I closely examine my various thought-prejudices.

So the idea is always modulated by all these overlapping spaces, which lawfully interact with one another but cannot be reduced to each other. My thinking space cannot be reduced to my soul space, my soul space to my biological space, or my biological space to my physical space. We can't find the causes for my ideas-thoughts in the physical forces, life forces, or soul forces. This is the 'superposition of curvatures' you reference. Notice there is a still a 'hierarchical' lawful structure here. All our scientific endeavors in the world take this nested structure for granted, and are only possible because of it, even if most people don't understand it. Everything we are doing right now on this forum to mutually investigate supra-sensory realities is also taking place through that structure. Now if all of this is a reflection of spiritual activity within the higher planes, then how can we avoid concluding the latter is also lawfully structured? If we stick with only our dispassionate logical reasoning, and thereby mitigate the conditioned desires and preferences of our soul and thinking spaces which constrain our spiritual activity, is it reasonable to conclude that we can actually "choose which waves to ride on", at this very moment, independently of this lawful structure which we must gradually navigate with our spiritual activity to find ever-increasing leeway?

That definitely has truth in it, but if you push this model to the extreme, the spiritual activity will become totally deterministic, at least on our human level, we will be like robots always following pre-determined lawful curvatures with no room for free will, and I don't think this model would conform to reality. The important point is: we are not some weak and stupid lost baby souls that need to be guided by higher order-beings in every little step. We are, literally everyone, are actually God itself in its individuation, with the full range of thinking and creative capacities, including free will. We need to learn how to use it properly though, and to learn it, we need to train ourselves to exercise this free will with discernment and wisdom. Also, being God-individuations, we have a full capacity to create and co-create the new meanings and affect or change these lawful structures and curvatures (to certain limits of course, because they are the result of the collective creation). So, this lawful structure is a complex interplay of co-creation activities of all involved beings exercising their free will.

For example, if I compose music, of course I am constrained by the frameworks and limitations of the existing musical instruments, harmonic structures, influences from existing musical forms and styles and so on. But notwithstanding that structure, I still have a lot of freedom to shape and compose the music as I feel I need to, where I will use my own intuitive, esthetic and creative abilities to create a new musical form that never existed before, and that is where the real creative process unfolds. When the composition is done, it will further contribute to the collective realm of musical forms and slightly change the curvature of the musical meanings affecting the future unfolding of this musical space.

Cleric recently discussed at length with Anthony why spiritual science cannot be treated as an 'end-user experience', like we treat secular science and its technologies. See here - viewtopic.php?p=19140#p19140. Spiritual science isn't the accumulation of abstract head-knowledge that we can use to satisfy curiosity or for personal convenience, but the very way in which we flesh out the higher planes of consciousness in which we are always dwelling with our spiritual activity, so as to gradually liberate from our Earthly conditioning. Otherwise we only remain with vague concepts of "complex interplay of co-creation activities of all involved beings". It's the way in which we develop the living experiences which can be worked over as spiritual forces between death-rebirth. People can give us helpful pointers and conceptual grips along the way, but genuine spiritual freedom can only be attained as we transfigure the World-content into our own thought-content from within, leaving nothing behind. We don't need to subscribe to any given esoteric system, and in fact modern intiation allows for individuals to pursue their own spiritual scientific path without consulting anyone else.

The lawful structure we need to navigate with our spiritual activity can only be seen as something external and 'deterministic' as long as we don't penetrate it with living knowledge and therefore understand our own participatory role. That is because our human-scale thinking space is what always mediates between the sensory-manifest plane and the supra-sensory, unmanifest planes. There is nothing from the higher planes of activity which becomes manifest on the Earthly plane, within any of the living kingdoms, without first precipitating through our human-scale consciousness. That is the great irony - those who clamor for freedom of spiritual activity in the 'beyond' don't realize just how much potential freedom they can actually attain within the Earthly spectrum. The mental, psychological, biological, and physical spaces and their constraints can be greatly influenced and loosened through greater self-consciousness of our thinking "I" participation. By sacrificing the expectation of abstract and total freedom from the Earthly environment after death, we attain to concrete, practical, and living freedom right here and now. But the extent of this cannot be imagined until we are willing to reach out beyond the sphere of our personal entanglements.

I really hope now you can at least see how, your logical reasoning takes you in a certain archeptyal direction, beyond the sphere of personal entanglements, but when you reach the implications of that direction, which involve a certain amount of sacrifice of preconceptions and expectations, then suddenly there is a shift back towards your personal desires and preferences - "not for me, thanks... I am happy feeling that I have unconvered all there is to unconver on Earth and can now wait for my freedom after death." Yet you have just reasoned out that there are many supra-sensory aspects of the Earthly spectrum which are still veiled to your cognition, including practically all of what falls under the broad label of 'spiritual science'. This would be like an aspiring engineer feeling satisfied that he has learned everything there is know about his craft after taking the first class of his first college course. You have also just reasoned out that your current desires and preferences which steer your thinking are still within the lawful context of the nested spaces. Don't you feel some impulse to at least investigate what that context is?

[Stranger]

This would be like an aspiring engineer feeling satisfied that he has learned everything there is know about his craft after taking the first class of his first college course. You have also just reasoned out that your current desires and preferences which steer your thinking are still within the lawful context of the nested spaces. Don't you feel some impulse to at least investigate what that context is?

Every engineer, after a career of practice, has right to retire and change their focus of activity to something else. The dualistic realm is infinitely rich, it's an endless fractal of forms, circumstances and possibilities and we can spend eternity developing and studying its structures and labyrinths. But so does the nondual realm! So, at some point the souls who decided to switch to the nondual realm need to stop and retire from being invested in the activities of the dualistic one (including its science).

Going back to the "Demiurge conspiracy theory", he wants to keep us to stay involved, to believe we are progressing somewhere, so he constantly invents more and more challenges, attractive or thrilling tasks and issues to keep us interested and hooked to his dualistic labyrinth. "Look, this needs to be investigated, it's crucially important! Hey, there is a war, you need to get involved, take a side! You need to dive deep into spiritual science to progress spiritually!" and so on and so forth. Or, if you don't believe in the Demiurge, just substitute it with the human ego. I guess this tactic has been working well for him, but not for me anymore, thank you As I said, I do not believe in progress in the dualistic domain, it' just going in circles, with periods of seeming improvements followed by periods of degradation, even though the landscape is constantly changing so it looks like the train is going somewhere. That's why it is called "the wheel of samsara" in Buddhism, or Ecclesiastes describes it the best.

A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; 3A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; 4A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; 5A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; 6A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; 7A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; 8A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace. ... What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.
Ecclesiastes

I agree that some amount of science is always necessary, both in dualistic and nondual paths. The structures and governing laws of the path need to be understood to know the best way of actions. And I've been always doing that, because serious spiritual work is never apart from enquiring and investigation (that's why I'm on the philosophy forum!).

But I guess we deviated far from the topic of this thread, it's time to wrap up. Thanks for interesting discussion.