The realm of the Demiurge

[Stranger]

PS: Cleric, don't get me wrong, we are in full agreement that, while living as humans in this life, we need “to investigate the light being even now", and in the meantime live with “our guts are down below and we use our higher intuition to guide them” and cope with adverse conditions of " sin living in me" (which is genetically programmed dualistic perception with its ego-complex). But as I said, once we break "through the clouds", we are heading now along the nondual curvature, and the content of the dualistic realm becomes less relevant. Then the question is what happens next once we leave the body, and specifically, does it make any sense to return to the human form again?

St. Paul's testimony from Roman 7 ("What a wretched man I am! ") tells us that even for the saints like St. Paul who experienced the state of consciousness where "I have been crucified with Christ: and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me", he remained still enslaved to the " sin living in me" and " I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin". And you can see the same testimonies from saints and masters all across the Western and Eastern traditions where they confirm that, while being in human form, it is impossible to become free from the "sin" of the dualistic and egoic state no matter how much progress is accomplished towards the nondual state. They did not know anything about genetics and psychology, but now we know that such bondage to duality is genetically programmed in the subconscious circuits and structures of the human material brain and mind, and so there is no hope to free the human nature from the dualistic state unless the genetics is altered.

[AshvinP]

St. Paul said it all eloquently, where the by “living sin” he refers to the human nature and "body subject to death" he refers to the "death" of the dualistic state:

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
St. Paul, Romans 7

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known

1 Corinthians 13

Now, going back to the Demiurge, of course he wants to keep the souls in his domain and convince them to stay using whatever arguments he can find, just like a Casino managers want their clients to stay and return. One of his arguments is that there is a spiritual progress and evolution in the dualistic domain, and that in this domain coexisting in both dualistic and nondual modes are possible and natural ("You can continue playing in our Casion and still be a good man!"). I can only say that the entire dualistic domain, its structure and content, is a big lie, it’s a hoax, because the dualistic perception on which this domain is built is a fundamental lie, so it is not surprising that all Demiurge’s arguments are essentially lies. The problem to recognize them as lies is that they are cleverly formulated and presented as truth-sounding, so a good amount of discernment and spiritual maturity is needed to see the lie in these true-sounding arguments. But the discernment becomes easier once we understand his main motivation to retain souls in his domain. “There is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it.” (John 8:44)

Again, this all will remain only an intellectual argumentation until we can experientially know the nondual state. Only when this happens, it becomes experientially obvious how incompatible the dualistic and nondual modes are, and how deluded, hindering and useless is the dualistic one for the spiritual development. The dualistic mode is a spiritual decease that young souls usually get infected with on their evolutionary path, and the only usefulness of experiencing it is to obtain immunity from it so that they can completely heal from it and never get sick again. Living in a half-sick/half-healthy mode would be going into a chronic mode of a decease instead of healing from it completely.

Eugene,

St. Paul was not abstractly theorizing about 'genetically programmed' dualistic consciousness, but referring to the concrete events which he was initiated into after the resurrection. The whole course of those events illustrate how our Cosmic being (nondual consciousness) and Earthly being (dualistic consciousness) are unified on the physical plane through the impulse of purifying self-consciousness. Christ incarnate demonstrated and foreshadowed the gradient through which the Higher laws can shine through the darkened clouds of our dualistic consciousness and be made manifest to guide the Earth's evolution through our true humanity. It is exactly what Cleric has been illustrating to you in other metaphorical ways, which you "agree" with and contradict within the same post. Perhaps you will say the concrete events themselves are tricks by the Demiurge while the abstract reflections are the true 'gospel', but do you see how backwards this is?

We really have to ignore the last 3,000 years if we are to say no spiritual progress has been made from the sentient man rolling along blindly with his passionate needs and desires, to the intellectual man who can somewhat intervene in the unfoldment of those baser instincts, to the spiritual man who can awaken to his creative agency in the realms of science, art, and culture in general. These are not 'clever arguments' by some Demiurge but simply shared facts of history and individual experience. Now if we are going down the road where all logically discerned facts of history, science, art, etc. and concrete experience of our evolution from childhood to adulthood are external deceptions imposed on us, then this is complete nihilism and, if we take it seriously, we have no business being on this forum. The conclusion that everything is an external deception is born of the same dualistic, genetically programmed 'sin' as everything else we perceive-know in the world, despite the special pleading to 'nondual consciousness' which only you and those who agree with you can understand. It is a complete circular loop with no escape, except blind faith that everything will turn out OK after death.

[Stranger]

Eugene,

St. Paul was not abstractly theorizing about 'genetically programmed' dualistic consciousness, but referring to the concrete events which he was initiated into after the resurrection. The whole course of those events illustrate how our Cosmic being (nondual consciousness) and Earthly being (dualistic consciousness) are unified on the physical plane through the impulse of purifying self-consciousness. Christ incarnate demonstrated and foreshadowed the gradient through which the Higher laws can shine through the darkened clouds of our dualistic consciousness and be made manifest to guide the Earth's evolution through our true humanity. It is exactly what Cleric has been illustrating to you in other metaphorical ways, which you "agree" with and contradict within the same post. Perhaps you will say the concrete events themselves are tricks by the Demiurge while the abstract reflections are the true 'gospel', but do you see how backwards this is?

We really have to ignore the last 3,000 years if we are to say no spiritual progress has been made from the sentient man rolling along blindly with his passionate needs and desires, to the intellectual man who can somewhat intervene in the unfoldment of those baser instincts, to the spiritual man who can awaken to his creative agency in the realms of science, art, and culture in general. These are not 'clever arguments' by some Demiurge but simply shared facts of history and individual experience. Now if we are going down the road where all logically discerned facts of history, science, art, etc. and concrete experience of our evolution from childhood to adulthood are external deceptions imposed on us, then this is complete nihilism and, if we take it seriously, we have no business being on this forum. The conclusion that everything is an external deception is born of the same dualistic, genetically programmed 'sin' as everything else we perceive-know in the world, despite the special pleading to 'nondual consciousness' which only you and those who agree with you can understand. It is a complete circular loop with no escape, except blind faith that everything will turn out OK after death.

If we are considering the tradition of Christianity, I already said that even the position of the Catholic-Orthodox Church and the Holy Fathers is that Christ only demonstrated the possibility of the resurrected state (so that humans can have faith that such state is possible as a future promise), but even since the Christ's resurrection, no human ever experienced the state of existence in the resurrected body. It was understood and accepted by the Church and all Holy Fathers that such resurrection of the human nature can only be accomplished after the second coming of Christ. Also, no reincarnation has ever been suggested by the Church, canonical or Gnostic Gospels, Apostles and Holy Fathers, and Origen's view of "transmigration of souls" was proclaimed a heresy.

What you are saying above is completely at odds with Christian (both Catholic/Orthodox and Gnostic), as well as all Eastern traditions. It's the Steiner's innovation. Whether you want to buy into it is your personal choice.

" this is complete nihilism"

This is complete "nihilism" towards a completely sick, distorted and deluded dualistic mode of consciousness. To call it "nihilism" is the same as to blame a doctor for his complete "nihilism" towards accepting the possibility of continuing living in sickness. No, it's actually not nihilism, it's a completely positive affirmation of a possibility of a healthy state, where healing starts even in this human life and then completes in other non-human forms.

[AshvinP]

Eugene,

St. Paul was not abstractly theorizing about 'genetically programmed' dualistic consciousness, but referring to the concrete events which he was initiated into after the resurrection. The whole course of those events illustrate how our Cosmic being (nondual consciousness) and Earthly being (dualistic consciousness) are unified on the physical plane through the impulse of purifying self-consciousness. Christ incarnate demonstrated and foreshadowed the gradient through which the Higher laws can shine through the darkened clouds of our dualistic consciousness and be made manifest to guide the Earth's evolution through our true humanity. It is exactly what Cleric has been illustrating to you in other metaphorical ways, which you "agree" with and contradict within the same post. Perhaps you will say the concrete events themselves are tricks by the Demiurge while the abstract reflections are the true 'gospel', but do you see how backwards this is?

We really have to ignore the last 3,000 years if we are to say no spiritual progress has been made from the sentient man rolling along blindly with his passionate needs and desires, to the intellectual man who can somewhat intervene in the unfoldment of those baser instincts, to the spiritual man who can awaken to his creative agency in the realms of science, art, and culture in general. These are not 'clever arguments' by some Demiurge but simply shared facts of history and individual experience. Now if we are going down the road where all logically discerned facts of history, science, art, etc. and concrete experience of our evolution from childhood to adulthood are external deceptions imposed on us, then this is complete nihilism and, if we take it seriously, we have no business being on this forum. The conclusion that everything is an external deception is born of the same dualistic, genetically programmed 'sin' as everything else we perceive-know in the world, despite the special pleading to 'nondual consciousness' which only you and those who agree with you can understand. It is a complete circular loop with no escape, except blind faith that everything will turn out OK after death.

If we are considering the tradition of Christianity, I already said that even the position of the Catholic-Orthodox Church and the Holy Fathers is that Christ only demonstrated the possibility of the resurrected state (so that humans can have faith that such state is possible as a future promise), but even since the Christ's resurrection, no human ever experienced the state of existence in the resurrected body. It was understood and accepted by the Church and all Holy Fathers that such resurrection of the human nature can only be accomplished after the second coming of Christ. Also, no reincarnation has ever been suggested by the Church, canonical or Gnostic Gospels, Apostles and Holy Fathers, and Origen's view of "transmigration of souls" was proclaimed a heresy.

Exactly, the abstract evangelical theologians end up with their faith in dogma and waiting for the rapture, the second coming, the final resurrection, the promise of heaven after death, etc. to escape dualistic consciousness of the Earthly plane, exactly as you are suggesting we do. This faith blinds them to the otherwise easily discerned reality of the eternal soul's reincarnations which advance the Earthly evolution, and without which that evolution makes no sense, as Origen also discerned before being written off as 'heresy'. Hasn't it already been established many times over in the last few hundred years that this narrow-minded, myopic, dogmatic faith in salvation from 'beyond' is no solution for anyone with a genuine interest in establishing some sort of gradient towards peace, love, and harmony on Earth, even if imperfect, through a living knowledge of the higher being within us?

[Stranger]

Exactly, the abstract evangelical theologians end up with their faith in dogma and waiting for the rapture, the second coming, the final resurrection, the promise of heaven after death, etc. to escape dualistic consciousness of the Earthly plane, exactly as you are suggesting we do. This faith blinds them to the otherwise easily discerned reality of the eternal soul's reincarnations which advance the Earthly evolution, and without which that evolution makes no sense, as Origen also discerned before being written off as 'heresy'. Hasn't it already been established many times over in the last few hundred years that this narrow-minded, myopic, dogmatic faith in salvation from 'beyond' is no solution for anyone with a genuine interest in establishing some sort of gradient towards peace, love, and harmony on Earth, even if imperfect, through a living knowledge of the higher being within us?

I was just saying that your view is completely at odds with the fundamental premises of both Western and Eastern religious and spiritual traditions. While explicitly you adopt "the mission of Christ", implicitly you/Steiner interpreted it in a completely different way opposite to all these traditions. None of them ever suggested the "progress of humans on Earth", all of them pointed as a path of salvation towards beyond-earth existence and realities.

As we know, all spiritual and religious traditions of the past developed in exoteric forms followed by masses, and esoteric forms of their spiritual realization by inner path of first-person experiential insight followed by only few individuals. We can disregard the exoteric forms, but even the esoteric ones of all traditions never mentioned a possibility of salvation or spiritual realization in the current human form, neither they ever mentioned the "spiritual progress of humanity". Being esoteric, they had deeper insight in the fundamental flaws of the human nature and well understood the impossibility of such progress or salvation.

Ironically, what you/Steiner are promoting is also a "salvation from beyond" from following the "curvatures of meaning" of higher-order beings. What you don't realize is that these higher beings are themselves deluded, they are higher-order beings of the dualistic realm above the Earth. If you or anyone want to stay in their domain and believe in progress and harmony on Earth while living within the dualistic human nature, it's fine, it's completely your choice. But don't make this choice mandatory, there are souls that choose the truth of the nondual state and nothing can make them to accept any compromise with the dualistic delusion. Nondual and dualistic states don't mix, it's like water and oil.

I can see that you believe in the possibility of human race progress on Earth. After 3000 years of human evolution where is the progress? Do you call this mess of bloody wars and atrocities, totalitarian dictatorships, corrupted democracies, economic inequality, Earth pollution, consumerism and mass media propaganda a progress? Do you think Anthroposophy is the panacea? Do you expect an average human to read Steiners PoF and comprehend it? 99% of humans will not even make it through the 1st page. 99% of humans will continue either to be stuck in the faith of abstractly and exoterically interpreted mass religions, be it traditional or New-Age kinds, or to be stuck in materialism. There is definitely technological and scientific progress, but it does not change the corrupted human nature even in a slightest way. When before we were egoic and aggressive humans with swords, now we are egoic and aggressive humans with nukes. Honestly, I don't see any progress here.

"Salvation" is not possible for the human race as a whole, unless a miracle like second coming of Christ happens. Earth is a place of a quarantine for souls infected with the virus of the dualistic delusion. "Salvation" is only possible on an individual basis for each soul once it recovers from this delusion and acquires immunity, in which case their leave the place of quarantine as it is no longer needed.

[Cleric K]

PS: Cleric, don't get me wrong, we are in full agreement that, while living as humans in this life, we need “to investigate the light being even now", and in the meantime live with “our guts are down below and we use our higher intuition to guide them” and cope with adverse conditions of " sin living in me" (which is genetically programmed dualistic perception with its ego-complex). But as I said, once we break "through the clouds", we are heading now along the nondual curvature, and the content of the dualistic realm becomes less relevant. Then the question is what happens next once we leave the body, and specifically, does it make any sense to return to the human form again?

St. Paul's testimony from Roman 7 ("What a wretched man I am! ") tells us that even for the saints like St. Paul who experienced the state of consciousness where "I have been crucified with Christ: and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me", he remained still enslaved to the " sin living in me" and " I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin". And you can see the same testimonies from saints and masters all across the Western and Eastern traditions where they confirm that, while being in human form, it is impossible to become free from the "sin" of the dualistic and egoic state no matter how much progress is accomplished towards the nondual state. They did not know anything about genetics and psychology, but now we know that such bondage to duality is genetically programmed in the subconscious circuits and structures of the human material brain and mind, and so there is no hope to free the human nature from the dualistic state unless the genetics is altered.

OK Eugene. As Ashvin pointed out, your objection rests upon the assumption that the Earthly realm is something quite tangential to our self-contained soul. Thus, suddenly, everything that we spoke about the evolving World-state is thrown out of the window. And all of this is done because of a simple completely human feeling.

I tried to hint at this with the volatility of our sympathies and antipathies. If you make further investigations you would see that currently you feel certain tiredness and apathy for the Earthly state. I'm not speaking about the kingdom of the Demiurge. No one is suggesting that we have to be enthusiastic about it. But things go too far when we identify the essential nature of the Earthly state with the kingdom of these beings. This prevents us to see that even in this moment we live in a purely spiritual world. Even in matter there's something sublime that has to liberated, to be made pliable, creative material for the spirit. This is the problem - that together with the kingdom of evil, interest in the spiritual foundations of the physical world is also thrown away.

Imagine a person that feels fed up with the Earthly realm and is determined to never set foot here again. Then he crosses the threshold, his feelings become much more fluid and his whole disposition about the Earthly state changes. Imagine that it becomes plainly obvious to him how he has been preoccupied with the feeling of antipathy towards the Demiurge kingdom and in the meanwhile he had missed so many chances to find the living spirit behind everything in the physical world. Then he says "Strange thing. I left the Earth with the firm determination that I won't return but now I feel in a completely different way. Now I see that because I didn't find the spirit within the physical, something is missing in my present state. I feel alien to the spiritual Cosmos. I live in it, I'm one with it, yet somehow I behold it as if through obscure glass. In this whole Cosmic environment, the only place where I can feel this point of focus, where I really find my unity with the Cosmos is when I look down and remember the humble Earth and my thinking intercourse with color, sound and so on. Now I feel strange sympathy towards this Earth. What I hoped to find after death feels as distant as it was while I was on Earth. But now it is even worse. Because on Earth I believed that my environment prevents me from contacting my true being, while now I have no one to blame. I understand that I have simply been looking in the wrong direction. What I was looking for could only have been found in the Earthly state, through the marriage of Spirit and Matter. I sinned against the Divine because I wrongfully identified the Divine Cosmos with a handful of malicious forces. My spirit couldn't find its counterpart in the elemental world because it despised it and thought that it has already overgrown it. Now I'll go back and rectify this mistake."

I guess that you now think "What a bag of nonsense!" Well whether it is nonsense or not, can't be figured out by musing in the dark clouds. It can be verified whether this is true even on Earth but we need to keep going further, following that logical path the has started with the few posts but was then turned on its head.

If there's one thing that can be gathered from all this, may it be the following. We know how often our human desires meet the impossibilities of destiny. How much more this could be the case when we speak of the higher worlds where our Earthly desires don't even apply! It's simply not serious to base our plans for the afterlife based on Earthbound desires. These could turn out to be as volatile as anything else.

When we find the Spirit, when we realize how it fertilizes the elemental world, then we feel to be in the center. Then we can say "After death, if I have to return, it will be because I see in this the greatest meaning. If I have to stay, it will be because I can be more useful for the evolution of humanity from that standpoint. But it is not up to my Earthly ego to decide that." In all cases, when we find the marriage of Spirit and Matter, of the Cosmic and the Elemental, then we find our true center. We feel at home at that center no matter the form of our environment. As long as we are wherever the Divine calls us, we're always at the right place. This is our present mission in the Earthly life - to find the Philosopher's Stone - "Coming to Him, a living stone, indeed rejected by men, but chosen and precious in the sight of God." Without finding this stone, we're like a donkey following a carrot on a stick. We always project our goal somewhere in the future but it keeps evading us. When we're on Earth we yearn for Heaven, when we're in Heaven we thirst for the Earth.

[Stranger]

When we find the Spirit, when we realize how it fertilizes the elemental world, then we feel to be in the center. Then we can say "After death, if I have to return, it will be because I see in this the greatest meaning. If I have to stay, it will be because I can be more useful for the evolution of humanity from that standpoint. But it is not up to my Earthly ego to decide that." In all cases, when we find the marriage of Spirit and Matter, of the Cosmic and the Elemental, then we find our true center. We feel at home at that center no matter the form of our environment. As long as we are wherever the Divine calls us, we're always at the right place. This is our present mission in the Earthly life - to find the Philosopher's Stone - "Coming to Him, a living stone, indeed rejected by men, but chosen and precious in the sight of God." Without finding this stone, we're like a donkey following a carrot on a stick. We always project our goal somewhere in the future but it keeps evading us. When we're on Earth we yearn for Heaven, when we're in Heaven we thirst for the Earth.

Cleric, we are going in circles and you probably missed my post here where I said:

And the problem is not with matter and material world per se, there is nothing wrong with the Mother Earth, but the problem is with human mind structure with its genetically embedded dualistic perception of reality. It could be fixed while remaining in the material realm, may be by future genetic or AI technology, may be with the help of ET or nonmaterial beings, may be with the second coming of Christ, we will see. If that happens, material Earth would become a wonderful place for souls to incarnate into the "new man" (I will be first to jump in, but only if there is no memory wipe!).

Which means yes, the marriage of Spirit and Matter is definitely possible, but not in the current genetically defined human form, simply because the human form has dualistic perception genetically programmed into it and will never conform to Spirit, and because Spirit is nondual by nature and is incompatible with dualistic mode of consciousness genetically programmed into the human form. It's a full and mutual incompatibility. But Spirit can certainly blend with Matter, there is no inherent incompatibility between them.

The Philosopher Stone is exactly our nondual nature, but this Stone only transmutes and heals the human souls, but not the human genetically defined material structure. The genetic code has to be completely restructured to conform to the new transmuted state of the soul. It is true that our mission on Earth is to find the Stone. Finding the stone heals the higher levels of our soul, but not the material level of our human nature and mind. Since you quoted Gospels again, according to both exoteric and esoteric Christian tradition, that is why the "new man", the transformed state of Spirit-Matter marriage, is only possible in a different type of body, the "resurrected body" of Christ. As we know form the Gospels, Christ after his resurrection appeared in a material body, but in a very different kind of body that was able to appear or disappear in any place transcending the "lawful structures" of the material realm (Jesus during his human life in human body was never able to do that).

[Cleric K]

Cleric, we are going in circles and you probably missed my post here where I said:

And the problem is not with matter and material world per se, there is nothing wrong with the Mother Earth, but the problem is with human mind structure with its genetically embedded dualistic perception of reality. It could be fixed while remaining in the material realm, may be by future genetic or AI technology, may be with the help of ET or nonmaterial beings, may be with the second coming of Christ, we will see. If that happens, material Earth would become a wonderful place for souls to incarnate into the "new man" (I will be first to jump in, but only if there is no memory wipe!).

Which means yes, the marriage of Spirit and Matter is definitely possible, but not in the current genetically defined human form, simply because the human form has dualistic perception genetically programmed into it and will never conform to Spirit, and because Spirit is nondual by nature and is incompatible with dualistic mode of consciousness genetically programmed into the human form. But Spirit can certainly blend with Matter, there is no inherent incompatibility between them.

The Philosopher Stone is exactly our nondual nature, but this Stone only transmutes and heals the human souls, but not the human genetically defined material structure. The genetic code has to be completely restructured to conform to the new transmuted state of the soul. It is true that our mission on Earth is to find the Stone. Finding the stone heals the higher levels of our soul, but not the material level of our human nature and mind. Since you quoted Gospels again, according to both exoteric and esoteric Christian tradition, that is why the "new man", the transformed state of Spirit-Matter marriage, is only possible in a different type of body, the "resurrected body" of Christ. As we know form the Gospels, Christ after the resurrection appeared in a material body, but in a very different kind of body that was able to appear or disappear in any place transcending the "lawful structures" of the material realm (Jesus during his human life in human body was never able to do that).

Eugene, when you say that humans are genetically handicapped, do you include yourself in this or you're simply expressing your general pessimism about humanity evolving as a whole?

Obviously you have some success with attaining to nondual states, you can speak about them, so your brain is receptive to these more subtle states. Do you feel some principal impossibility for this orchestration to go even further? For you, not for humans in general.

And by saying further orchestration, I don't imply that you should walk on water or grow new limbs. It's simply about the possibility for our Earthly bodies becoming more and more attuned and receptive to the higher order spaces. At what point do we say "That's too much, I've reached the hard limit. Now all I can do is wait."? Is there such a limit? I agree that we can do only so much in a single lifetime but is there any reason not to keep going further and further until the last bodily breath?

[Stranger]

Eugene, when you say that humans are genetically handicapped, do you include yourself in this or you're simply expressing your general pessimism about humanity evolving as a whole?

Obviously you have some success with attaining to nondual states, you can speak about them, so your brain is receptive to these more subtle states. Do you feel some principal impossibility for this orchestration to go even further? For you, not for humans in general.

I definitely include myself and ground these conclusions on my own spiritual experience, but I can also see the state of people around me, it confirms that all humans have minds are programmed in the same dualistic way. And I believe it's not my human brain that is receptive to the nondual state, but it's some higher nonhuman levels of my soul structure that are receptive. But even if I'm wrong and it is indeed some newly-formed neural connections in my brain attaining to the nondual state, I still see no progress in my subconscious levels of mind still functioning and perceiving in the dualistic way. Somehow, the nondual state is completely "compartmentalized" from the subconscious dualistic structures and they do not conform to each other. And the real problem is, I experientially see how this dualistic part of mind does not give in, but relentlessly rejects and tries to take over and repress the nondual mode. It's an everyday struggle that significantly impedes my progress in the nondual mode. I can cope with it for the rest of the current life, but I do not see a point in continuing living in such handicapped mode forever.

And by saying further orchestration, I don't imply that you should walk on water or grow new limbs. It's simply about the possibility for our Earthly bodies becoming more and more attuned and receptive to the higher order spaces. At what point do we say "That's too much, I've reached the hard limit. Now all I can do is wait."? Is there such a limit? I agree that we can do only so much in a single lifetime but is there any reason not to keep going further and further until the last bodily breath?

Attaining the nondual state was a result of very unique circumstances of my current life. I did not get it from just reading right books. If I, as you say, "keep going" and return to the human form in the next life, there will be two issues. First, I will lose all my memories and will be genetically and culturally programmed into the dualistic state all over again. I am not sure if the circumstances of my next life will bring me to the "breakthrough" point again, and I don't want to take chances. I already found the Stone and there is no way I will ever let myself lose it again. The second issue is that, even if I somehow manage to attain to the nondual state in my next life, I will again get stuck in this completely misaligned and handicapped mix of nondual mode of higher cognition and dualistic mode of subconscious perception and functioning. I'm not saying that any spiritual evolution in such state is impossible, but it is a very unproductive and impeding state for spiritual evolution. Again, I'm going in circles, I said it all before somewhere else in this thread.

Notice that I never complained about human suffering and the "environment", I find them quite copiable, I only pointed to the lack of progress in human society and said that the belief in the progress of humans as a race is futile. It's not the life conditions and sufferings per se that you might think I'm trying to "escape". It's the inherent dualistic perception of the human mind that I cannot compromise with.

But as I said before, we can spend months intellectually debating this and never agree. The key is to experientially "find the Stone", experience the nondual state experientially while remaining in human body, and that's where we will experience this incompatibility of the dualistically programmed human mind and nondual state of consciousness. Until this is experientially realized, it will all be a matter of intellectual arguments and interpretations of quotes from the Bible in this or that way which will lead us nowhere. That's why I do not see any point of continuing this debate. I believe we exhausted all our arguments and are just going in circles repeating them over and over again.

[Stranger]

PS: On another note, I can see the that the knowledge of the Demiurge's domain is currently spreading over the internet and people are becoming aware of it. They believe that the only thing they need to do in order to break free from the Demiurge's "soul recycling farm" is to run away from the "tunnel of light" and not agree to any other human incarnations. The problem is that they do not realize the real issue here that they will still remain in the dualistic state. They don't see any problem with their current dualistic state and only blame the Demiurge for tricking them to incarnate into humans. They only want to escape from the sufferings of the human life but not to admit, address and even understand the flaws of their dualistic state of mind. As a result, the best they can do is simply to reincarnate in some other ET race of dualistic beings (I'm sure there are plenty of them in the material universe, and in fact, many NDErs reported recalling their previous lives as ET beings on other planets, dualistic of course). The bottom-line is: there is no way they will escape the Demiurge's domain as they hope to do unless they attain to the nondual state of consciousness.