Meditation exercise on "separate me"

[Stranger]

You said after the transition to nondual state the human form is no longer fit for supporting the soul's evolution. That is the hard limit.

I already used this analogy: when you graduate from grade 12, the form of high school student is no longer fit for you, but it is not a "hard limit", you can actually keep returning back to the 12 grade as many times as you want and still keep learning something new, while most of the time you will be learning the same lessons again. So, you can still slowly progress in your studies (and there is no hard limit to your progress), but your learning will be impeded as compared to the learning that you could accomplish if you would go to a college. So, after high-school graduation the college education becomes more fit for your stage of learning compared to high school.

Notice that none of this is claimed to be something which can be concretely verified by the nondual consciousness, by higher cognition, or otherwise - the last thing we want is for our black box to go away. So we say neither we nor anyone else has actually verified the course of our Solar evolution, the nature of extra-terrestrial life in the Cosmos, the role of the Earth's evolution in reintegrating the differentiated streams of evolution within the Solar system, etc. There are a bunch of vague traditions and accounts which seem to support us, but we can't be sure whether it's actually the case or not, and neither can anyone else. It will only be revealed after death.

Exactly, that is why I said: let's leave this discussion aside for now, it is irrelevant for us in our human form. We will make the decision of our next incarnation when there is appropriate time for that, and we will have more information at that point to make appropriate decision. At this point we have more relevant and important things to focus on.

Now, I would suggest that we stop this discussion because first we are discussing the same arguments over and over again, and second, because it is off-topic in this thread.

[AshvinP]

You said after the transition to nondual state the human form is no longer fit for supporting the soul's evolution. That is the hard limit.

I already used this analogy: when you graduate from grade 12, the form of high school student is no longer fit for you, but it is not a "hard limit", you can actually keep returning back to the 12 grade as many times as you want and still keep learning something new, while most of the time you will be learning the same lessons again. So, you can still slowly progress in your studies (and there is no hard limit to your progress), but your learning will be impeded as compared to the learning that you could accomplish if you would go to a college. So, after high-school graduation the college education becomes more fit for your stage of learning compared to high school.

Notice that none of this is claimed to be something which can be concretely verified by the nondual consciousness, by higher cognition, or otherwise - the last thing we want is for our black box to go away. So we say neither we nor anyone else has actually verified the course of our Solar evolution, the nature of extra-terrestrial life in the Cosmos, the role of the Earth's evolution in reintegrating the differentiated streams of evolution within the Solar system, etc. There are a bunch of vague traditions and accounts which seem to support us, but we can't be sure whether it's actually the case or not, and neither can anyone else. It will only be revealed after death.

Exactly, that is why I said: let's leave this discussion aside for now, it is irrelevant for us in our human form. We will make the decision of our next incarnation when there is appropriate time for that, and we will have more information at that point to make appropriate decision. At this point we have more relevant and important things to focus on.

Now, I would suggest that we stop this discussion because first we are discussing the same arguments over and over again, and second, because it is off-topic in this thread.

Of course it's relevant, Eugene. It's the only thing that is relevant to what spiritual practice we should adopt - whether your OP is a great exercise for spiritual maturation or a positive obstacle to growing in spiritual consciousness after death. It is the latter and we have been trying to help you lead yourself to the reasons why.

You misunderstood what I wrote above - I should have been more clear. Starting with "notice that none of this...", I was characterizing the mystical escapist approach, which I obviously disagree with, and how it leads to an extreme form of hidden egoism. I use "we", however, because we are all entangled in this egoism which constantly tempts us to take otherwise deep spiritual realities and adapt them to serve our current needs, desires, preferences, etc. The only chance we have to ward of this temptation is to become intensely self-conscious of it. We must confront it with courage, head on. Otherwise it will continue to lurk in the shadows and condition all our spiritual thinking while we rationalize to ourselves that our nondual consciousness, or higher cognition, or whatever, has transcended the egoism. Then we are simply stuck in an infernal loop of our own making.

[Cleric K]

Now, I would suggest that we stop this discussion because first we are discussing the same arguments over and over again, and second, because it is off-topic in this thread.

Then one important question remains.

First I'll recapitulate the basic problem with the 'no separate self' when taken as a root cause. In itself it doesn’t lead too far. In fact, it leaves one in a quite indeterminate state. When stated like that – no separate self – it could be quite puzzling. Of course you agree (as confirmed in the no-thought thread) that we’re always experiencing a unique perspective within reality, which finds itself in relations with other perspectives (beings). Now in this thread you have further specified that separate self really refers to the lower egoic tendencies and not about the fact that we experience unique individual worldline of evolution.

These tendencies are indeed related to the lack of deeper insight into reality. Egoism can exist only because we’re unconscious of the effects of our thoughts, feelings and actions. We believe that we can be happy at the expense of someone else’s unhappiness or simply that we can be locally happy regardless of the state of humanity at large. These things really are due to lack of love and understanding of the fundamental interconnectedness of all existence. Yet as I wrote in my first reply, if we start with the idea of ‘no separate self’ this leaves us in a quite ambiguous situation. As the example was given – materialism also has oneness – it’s only one quantum fabric. Yet it simply makes no sense in that framework that harm done to another being will reflect back on us. Good, evil, morality simply don’t exist in the purely energetic universe. It’s all the same whether the ripples in the quantum fields are in the configuration of a stone or a human. Thus whether a man does good or kills is completely irrelevant. The universe won't prosecute a murderer.

This is not limited to materialism. We know that many spiritual philosophies also take a similar approach, where for example a criminal’s act can be justified by saying “Maybe this is what MAL wanted to experience. It wanted to experience how it feels to take another man’s life.”

The point is that the ‘no separate self’ idea in itself leaves us in a quite indeterminate situation. I can deny my feeling for separate self and still commit crimes which I’ll feel are the will of the One Cosmic Mind. So we see that this can even be quite dangerous. And in fact, people are especially susceptible to such ideas. They would love to renounce any responsibility, so they gladly surrender any feeling for agency and just free fall through the flow of becoming believing that whatever they do is not based on any separate self but follows from the wise oneness of the universe. However, there’s no telling what beings take control of a bodily complex that indiscriminately opens up for whatever influences may flow into it.

I know that you don’t advocate any of this, you’ve made it clear. I just wanted to repeat, though, that ‘no separate self’ can’t be the root cause, because it is way too ambiguous. We can't make that the root of our meditation because there's no telling in what direction the person will be dragged once they push away their Earthly self-image. And, yes, I know that you don't advocate such indiscriminate surrender but this is what someone who has no idea of your obscure definition of separate self and individual conscious spaces, would take if they read your initial post without any background knowledge. In that case wouldn't it be way more appropriate to start with the true problems - the spiritual scientific nature of lower egoic impulses, the understanding of karma, the Divine order and so on? If these things are understood then there's even no need to speak of 'separate self' because the spirit that works in the bodily complex has already made up its mind about what is good and beneficial for all. It doesn't have to imagine that the separate self (the lower egoic life) is an illusion but simply start ennobling it with through higher impulses. In the end this is what we're after - the perfection of our human conduct, making it a channel not for egoic tendencies which are blind for the repercussions of thoughts, feelings and desires but becoming a channel for Divine Inspiration that demands sacrifices and work in service of the Whole.

Anyway, now to the actual important question. You say that there are no separate selves but only One Self. That’s fine. Yet, the fact remains that we feel as a perspective of that Self. Even in the highest Intuition, we can resonate only with aspects of other being’s perspectives (as much as overlaps with ours). Only in the course of evolution we’ll know more and more of the Divine Self. So it is clear that ‘we are the Self, we are everything’ has double meaning (that has been explained in many ways, including the Cantor Dust fractal). On one hand we’re the essential nature of the Divine, yet on the other we feel as individual self, which exists in concrete relations with other beings. This poses the question: what should be our inner relation to the Divine Self? Do we simply state “I am the Divine Self” as if we speak from the absolute highest perspective (feeling as if we simply have temporary amnesia and we don't remember our full self)? Or do we realize that what we know as our individual self is the tiniest ray of the Divine potential? And if it is the second, then what should our proper relation to the Infinite Divine Self be? This will be most directly addressed through the question of prayer. Does it make sense to pray to the Divine Self which is concealed beneath the opaque layers of our manifested individual conscious space and say something like “not what I will, but what thou wilt”?

[Stranger]

Of course it's relevant, Eugene. It's the only thing that is relevant to what spiritual practice we should adopt - whether your OP is a great exercise for spiritual maturation or a positive obstacle to growing in spiritual consciousness after death. It is the latter and we have been trying to help you lead yourself to the reasons why.

You misunderstood what I wrote above - I should have been more clear. Starting with "notice that none of this...", I was characterizing the mystical escapist approach, which I obviously disagree with, and how it leads to an extreme form of hidden egoism. I use "we", however, because we are all entangled in this egoism which constantly tempts us to take otherwise deep spiritual realities and adapt them to serve our current needs, desires, preferences, etc. The only chance we have to ward of this temptation is to become intensely self-conscious of it. We must confront it with courage, head on. Otherwise it will continue to lurk in the shadows and condition all our spiritual thinking while we rationalize to ourselves that our nondual consciousness, or higher cognition, or whatever, has transcended the egoism. Then we are simply stuck in an infernal loop of our own making.

I see it the other way around: shifting the focus on the Earthly existence only and on human development only is an escapism from reaching to more encompassing Cosmic nondual evolutionary path and goal, and that focus on Earth and human form only is actually unconsciously serving our egotism due to our attachments to the human form with its pleasures and experiences.

[Stranger]

Anyway, now to the actual important question. You say that there are no separate selves but only One Self. That’s fine. Yet, the fact remains that we feel as a perspective of that Self. Even in the highest Intuition, we can resonate only with aspects of other being’s perspectives (as much as overlaps with ours). Only in the course of evolution we’ll know more and more of the Divine Self. So it is clear that ‘we are the Self, we are everything’ has double meaning (that has been explained in many ways, including the Cantor Dust fractal). On one hand we’re the essential nature of the Divine, yet on the other we feel as individual self, which exists in concrete relations with other beings. This poses the question: what should be our inner relation to the Divine Self? Do we simply state “I am the Divine Self” as if we speak from the absolute highest perspective (feeling as if we simply have temporary amnesia and we don't remember our full self)? Or do we realize that what we know as our individual self is the tiniest ray of the Divine potential? And if it is the second, then what should our proper relation to the Infinite Divine Self be? This will be most directly addressed through the question of prayer. Does it make sense to pray to the Divine Self which is concealed beneath the opaque layers of our manifested individual conscious space and say something like “not what I will, but what thou wilt”?

You are making good points, cleric. Of course, just realization of "no separate self" is only a tiny part and only one step of the more wholistic spiritual practice/approach that should also include constructive aspects of integrating into the Cosmic organism. The "no separate self" realization is a negative step, it is a removal of one of the obstacles impeding the integration, but if taken by itself, it can easily lead to nihilistic states and interpretations (and that is what indeed many modern "nondual" practitioners end up with). Nevertheless, it is a very necessary step.

So, to be constructive, the practice has to include the integration into the Cosmic Organism, and one of such practices is prayer as you rightly said. We need to realize that our individual spiritual activity is only a tiniest ray of the Cosmic Spiritual activity interconnected and never separate from it. So, the prayer (whatever forms it may take) is openness and experience of entanglement and interconnectedness with the Cosmic Organism.

And by the way, that is exactly how authentic nondual traditions approach it (as opposed to some neo-nondualist ones that lead to nihilism and escapism). I quoted Tich Nat Than before, but here it is again:

"Emptiness means emptiness of separate existence. ... To be means to inter-be with everything else, existence means co-existence." Thich Nhat Hanh

[AshvinP]

Of course it's relevant, Eugene. It's the only thing that is relevant to what spiritual practice we should adopt - whether your OP is a great exercise for spiritual maturation or a positive obstacle to growing in spiritual consciousness after death. It is the latter and we have been trying to help you lead yourself to the reasons why.

You misunderstood what I wrote above - I should have been more clear. Starting with "notice that none of this...", I was characterizing the mystical escapist approach, which I obviously disagree with, and how it leads to an extreme form of hidden egoism. I use "we", however, because we are all entangled in this egoism which constantly tempts us to take otherwise deep spiritual realities and adapt them to serve our current needs, desires, preferences, etc. The only chance we have to ward of this temptation is to become intensely self-conscious of it. We must confront it with courage, head on. Otherwise it will continue to lurk in the shadows and condition all our spiritual thinking while we rationalize to ourselves that our nondual consciousness, or higher cognition, or whatever, has transcended the egoism. Then we are simply stuck in an infernal loop of our own making.

I see it the other way around: shifting the focus on the Earthly existence only and on human development only is an escapism from reaching to more encompassing Cosmic nondual evolutionary path and goal, and that focus on Earth and human form only is actually unconsciously serving our egotism due to our attachments to the human form with its pleasures and experiences.

Of course, but no one here has taken that position. It is only projected onto us. We have spoken of rhythmic alternation many times here, across all the nested incarnational scales from our momentary perception-thinking hysteresis, to the daily waking-sleep cycle (including our meditative and non-meditative alternation), to the birth-death-rebirth cycle, up to the manvantara-pralaya cycles of the Earth soul. But this polar dynamic simply won't register until we develop our own living, imaginative thinking. Until then, our conceptual slots only resonate with an oscillation from one pole to the other. Everything is experienced as either black or white depending on our mood, even if intellectually we say it is both/and.

I think my part in this discussion is done for now. I would just ask you honestly look at your own oscillations in the course of various discussions we have had. There is a constant swinging to and fro - the human form is not principally limiting vs. human form cannot support the nondual state, Earthly incarnation is necessary for moral perfection vs. moral perfection (responsibility for All) no longer applies in the incorporeal state, spiritual evolution is happening for souls on Earth vs. spiritual evolution isn't happening for humanity as a whole, and many similar expressions of the poles which have been placed into opposition. This is simply the templated oscillatory pattern the intellect forces itself into when it wants to keep the Divine Self arbitrarily separated from its responsibility for gradually and patiently transforming its lower sheaths. It will post-hoc rationalize these inconsistencies to itself, but they will continue to crop up nevertheless until the actual root cause is addressed.

[Stranger]

I think my part in this discussion is done for now. I would just ask you honestly look at your own oscillations in the course of various discussions we have had. There is a constant swinging to and fro - the human form is not principally limiting vs. human form cannot support the nondual state, Earthly incarnation is necessary for moral perfection vs. moral perfection (responsibility for All) no longer applies in the incorporeal state, spiritual evolution is happening for souls on Earth vs. spiritual evolution isn't happening for humanity as a whole, and many similar expressions of the poles which have been placed into opposition. This is simply the templated oscillatory pattern the intellect forces itself into when it wants to keep the Divine Self arbitrarily separated from its responsibility for gradually and patiently transforming its lower sheaths. It will post-hoc rationalize these inconsistencies to itself, but they will continue to crop up nevertheless until the actual root cause is addressed.

It is not an oscillation, but inclusion, a nested view where we still have temporary responsibilities and temporary hindrances during the phase of human life while also expanding beyond and transcending these limitations of the human form even during the human life and reaching to the integration into the Cosmic-scale organism that is not revolving or centered around the Earth and human form only. It is not "anthropocentric" view but the Divine-centric all-inclusive one.

[mikekatz]

Hi Eugene

I do this type of exercise often, and I find it works sometimes. Other times, the resistance is too strong. Patience is a virtue, it takes practice.

As a matter of technique, I find it best to start with feelings. Starting any other way, especially with the idea of a separate self, already grounds the exercise within that self. The whole exercise then becomes an analysis rather than an experience. At least that’s the way it is for me, I’m intellectually top-heavy.

Mike, could you be more detailed how you go about it when you start with feelings? Could you give an example?

My wife likes to tell me everything in lots of detail - lots. And I always used to get impatient, sometimes internally, sometimes externally. I used this exercise, and still use it, to get to the bottom of this.

If I start from thinking, I conjure up all the excuses in the book. She doesn’t have to go into such detail, she just interrupted what I was doing, etc. So I go to the feeling of impatience, or I try to. Sometimes, the mind actively tries to prevent this. I’ll suddenly remember something important I have to do. I might get a pain or itch, etc. There’s a non-action of letting go that’s sometimes needed to get to the feeling.

If there’s success, I connect to the feeling. I experience the feeling of impatience, and it’s uncomfortable. There is fear of connecting deeper to the feeling of impatience, and sometimes I have to back off.

But I go deeper into it, and it’s almost overwhelming. It’s not impatience anymore, that was just a smokescreen. There’s something much deeper, some kind of primordial fear. It has layers, and I am still penetrating the layers even today to get to the bottom of it. It’s like the whorls and jagged lines in my being that Cleric describes.

I have learnt a lot about this feeling, and I continue to work on it. I see how it extends to much of my behaviour, not just with my wife. And it’s changed things for me. I am now different in the same circumstances. I am more connected with her, and with others. But there’s much more to learn.

And the thing is, is that the impatience as such is now gone. It’s over for me. There’s no more mind tricks when I’m in a conversation. The ego knows the game is over with regards that particular feeling. And I know that when I get to the deeper pain that generated the impatience, and fully experience that, it will also go. But right now, that’s even more terrifying.

Again as a matter of technique, the only way I can really move into this feeling is to start from a position where I am relatively separated from myself. If I think that this is my feeling, it’s literally too terrifying. If there’s just the perception of the feeling as a sensation, equivalent to feeling my position on the chair, for example, then I can approach it. But there’s still the choice that has to be made to dive into it and experience it.


I read all the discussion that goes on here between Ashvin, Cleric, and Eugene (in alphabetic order lol). It’s interesting, and attractive, and it piques my interest, but it doesn’t serve a spiritual purpose for me. My intellect, my thinking, has got me to its limit. It’s showed me that there is a non-dual state, and I now experience that. It’s showed me that I have to work on myself, and I do that. It can’t take me further, it can only distract me. And that is where I am spiritually. Of course, if you are somewhere else, and these discussions are vital for you, that’s great! We are all where we are, and we should all respect that.

Like Eugene, and probably even less than him, I lose the non-dual state far too much. You just have to experience it once to know that this is our birthright that we have lost, and that we can get it back. I use meditation and prayer to “achieve” and strengthen the non-dual state.
The detailed work on myself, smoothing out the soul as Cleric puts it, or purifying it as is commonly stated - this detailed and difficult work has to be done. For me personally, without the anchor of the non-dual state, I would never be able to truly approach it.

Frederica, I hope you connect to this in some way. I invite you to try the same thing, and see what happens. Drop the thinking, drop trying to fit anything into a theory, just try simple, direct experiencing of a negative feeling, and see what happens. And no need to publicly report the details.

[Stranger]

Again as a matter of technique, the only way I can really move into this feeling is to start from a position where I am relatively separated from myself. If I think that this is my feeling, it’s literally too terrifying. If there’s just the perception of the feeling as a sensation, equivalent to feeling my position on the chair, for example, then I can approach it. But there’s still the choice that has to be made to dive into it and experience it.

You are right, Mike, this dis-identification between the feeling and the sense of "me" is the key, it breaks the vicious cycle of the causal link between the feeling (of irritation in this example) and the "me who gets irritated". When this link is intact, these two phenomena reinforce each other in a positive feedback loop ("she offended me" -> "feeling of being offended" -> "who is offended? - me!" - more feeling of being offended and so on). Once this link is broken, then we only experience just a phenomenon of feeling (which is almost a physical sensation of emotional energy) and a phenomenon of sense-idea of "me" without identification with any of those, so that their feedback loop is broken. And in this loop it is usually not only "me" but a bunch of other thoughts of the "story" intermingled with the feeling in a whole "blob", so it is important to disentangle this blob and simply experience the feeling and thoughts around it as a flow of phenomena in consciousness without any identification with them and with full awareness of them, and then they will naturally lose their energy and subside.

I also find it helpful to never reject or push away any feelings, no matter how unpleasant they are, but fully feel and embrace them without identification and with full awareness (like "here is a feeling"). In this approach the feeling will come but then naturally dissipate without the self-sustaining feedback loop when it connects with the sense of "me". But if I push away or reject any unpleasant feelings, they will just become repressed into subconscious but their energy will remain undissipated, so they will continue evolving and coming back. Embracing them without enacting or identification is the only way to let them go and dissipate their energy.

Also, maintaining the open Cosmic perspective of interconnectedness and oneness with the Divine Cosmos shifts the perspective of being too focused on what happens to "me" and "my feelings". In this state of openness and prayer to the Divine Cosmos all these egoic feelings revolving around "me" become nonimportant anymore.

[Cleric K]

And by the way, that is exactly how authentic nondual traditions approach it (as opposed to some neo-nondualist ones that lead to nihilism and escapism). I quoted Tich Nat Than before, but here it is again:

"Emptiness means emptiness of separate existence. ... To be means to inter-be with everything else, existence means co-existence." Thich Nhat Hanh

That's clear and this inter-being is very pleasantly presented by TNH. But I wanted to direct attention to something else. When we take prayer in the context of inter-beings, then it is similar to reverence and sacred feeling for everything that exists. But I'm talking about the Divine that is even in this present moment concealed, which we know as an "I" only as far as it expresses in the intuitive space of our present stage of evolution. How do we relate to that Being that will manifest more and more fully in the course of evolution at completely new levels of consciousness? Do we need to take some active stance in relation to that potential?