Meditation exercise on "separate me"

[Stranger]

If we dream that we’ll simply go into the Heavens and on another floor we’ll be awaited by a more comfortable Earth and better flesh, we’ll be disappointed. I mean, we'll surely see the archetype of all this in our journey after death but we'll also understand that this archetype must descend and sublimate the elemental realm. It is true that the old will fade away but the seed of the new is already contained within the Earth. It only must be fertilized by the Spirit.

OK, at least we are not debating the falsity of the separate "I"-sense-idea anymore, which is good.

Now, regarding what you said, I also never said that we are only and necessarily going to progress to "higher floors" beyond elemental. If you remember, I mentioned that the soul can continue reincarnating in a variety of alien races and realms even after nondual realization, including back to Earth (for bodhisattva missions for example). There is nothing in the elemental realm in general that is incompatible with the Divine Spirit. So now, our divergence is only regarding whether or not the particular current human form in its genetic/karmic composition is fully malleable for harmonious co-existence with the state of realized Divine Self free of dualistic separate-"I" delusion (I do not deny that it is partially malleable). But I would suggest leaving this discussion for another thread, or simply leave it open at this point. We have no evidences to prove one way or the other, it may or may not be malleable, and at this point it remains a matter of belief. I believe we should leave this decision for the discretion of each soul. As I said, it is similar to a decision for a person to emigrate from a country or stay notwithstanding any adverse living conditions in this country. And in any case, this discussion would be off-topic for this thread. This thread is about how to even start for a human person to wake up from the deluded daydream of separate "I"-ness and what practical methods one can use to accomplish that wakeup (for example, the meditation method that I suggested).

PS: The Second Coming is the manifestation of Christ within each one of us. It is not a global event. For some the Second Coming has already begun, for others it will begin in centuries. The Divine that works through us is what makes it possible to begin the transformation of our sheaths - "He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do".

It is definitely "possible to begin the transformation of our sheaths", this is what the meditation in the topic of the thread is about. The question is whether we can fully complete it and bring the human material form (as it currently genetically/karmically composed) in a full harmony with the Divine Spirit. I understand that it is possible to interpret the Second Coming in this spiritual sense. There still remains a question why Christ could not accomplish such transformation fully in his human Jesus form and had to die and be resurrected in order to be transformed into the incorruptible human form. And these words of St. Paul still remain inconsistent with your interpretation:

Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable (1 Corinthians 15:50)

But again, let's leave this discussion for now, for most of us this question is irrelevant since we either not even started, or maybe started but are currently at the very beginning stages. We will know better what happens at the advanced stages of such integration-transformation once we get there.

[lorenzop]

I invite us all to set aside philosophical and metaphysical considerations, look at the "separate me" issue from purely phenomenological perspective and try this meditative exercise. I've been doing this for years and still do it regularly (I'm still working on deconstructing my egoic complex residing in subconscious around the sense of "separate me").

During the daytime activities we regularly get entangled in situations where we feel insecure, offended, hostile, humiliated, depressed, greedy, competitive or get involved in any other similar scenarios (let's call it event X). We usually blame others or life circumstances for that and leave these situations unexamined. Other situations may involve us feeling self-aggravated and superior to other beings, including feelings of intellectually or spiritually more superior or advanced (the "enlightened ego" phenomenon).

So, in the evening or next morning let's reproduce exactly step by step the event X and look at it phenomenologically re-living every arising and move of ideas, feelings and deeds, but look at it through the light of awareness with complete honesty and transparency. Here are the steps I usually go through:

1. Trace all the phenomena involved in the event X (ideas, feelings and deeds) - how they arose and linked to each other and the events of the situation.

2. Trace and realize how all these phenomena revolve and are founded on the foundation of the "separate me" sense-idea (which is also a phenomenon), how they all always pertain and causally linked to the "separate me". Realize how all these causal connections between these phenomena of the event X happened in our blind spot in unconscious without our awareness of how they actually relate to each other and the sense of "separate me".

3. Realize and remind yourself again that the "separate me" sense-idea is a complete mind-fabricated abstraction incoherent with reality. Trace and realize how the origin of this "separate me" sense-idea is rooted in and stems from the erroneous dualistic perception of reality where we perceive the world as a conglomerate of separate entities, separate selves and things, one of which is this sense-idea of "separate me" who is in the center of the "external" world experiencing it and acting in it as a "doer". Realize how this dualistic perception is related to the failure to experientially and intellectually realize the fundamental underlying Oneness of the Cosmic Organism behind the seeming diversity of forms.

4. Using imaginative cognition, imagine how the situation X would unfold if there would be no sense of "separate me". Realize that all the ideas, feelings and deeds of the event X would not have any ground and would not arise and happen if the sense of "separate me" would not be present. Imagine how we could be free from all this egoic reactivity and could become altruistic, compassionate and loving if we would experience oneness with all Cosmic Organism and all sentient beings and would not feel or think ourselves separate from it.

Most people do not realize how much most of their problems in individual and social life are related to and caused by the egoic complex maintained around the core sense-idea of "separate me". We always look for the problems and solutions somewhere else without realizing the role of the egoic complex around "separate me" while the "separate me" remains deep in unconscious in our blind spot and in the driving seat.

It is also useful to contemplate on how most of our social issues (wars, corruption, consumerism and mass media propaganda, economic inequalities, Earth pollution, conflicts in groups and between groups large and small, etc etc) can be traced to the human egotism and the "separate me" at the root of it. This is more intellectual exercise rather than phenomenological, yet still very instructive and useful to understand the picture and the problem on the larger humanity scale.

You are conflating 'seperate me' on an intellectual level vs on the level of Being,
Also there is a patina of 'seperate me' that persists . . . keeps one from banging into walls and forgetting to brush one's teeth.
Your process above will result in being spaced out and of no use to anyone, and not any king of a non - seperate me.

[Stranger]

You are conflating 'seperate me' on an intellectual level vs on the level of Being,
Also there is a patina of 'seperate me' that persists . . . keeps one from banging into walls and forgetting to brush one's teeth.
Your process above will result in being spaced out and of no use to anyone, and not any king of a non - seperate me.

On the level of Being there is only one Being and one Self in the whole Cosmos. I am talking here about a sense-idea of "self"/"I" separate from selves/"I" of other sentient beings. If you ask an average human, this is exactly how they perceive their own self - as an "I"/self separate from other selves.

No, it will not result in any spacing-out, the spiritual activity of consciousness will continue in a fully functional way, actually even in more efficient way than with the sense of separate "I". It is not the "separate me" patina that keeps one from banging into walls. But it is only possible to prove this claim experientially. But if you don't believe it is useful or possible, then please do not do it.

[AshvinP]

You are conflating 'seperate me' on an intellectual level vs on the level of Being,
Also there is a patina of 'seperate me' that persists . . . keeps one from banging into walls and forgetting to brush one's teeth.
Your process above will result in being spaced out and of no use to anyone, and not any king of a non - seperate me.

On the level of Being there is only one Being and one Self in the whole Cosmos. I am talking here about a sense-idea of "self"/"I" separate from selves/"I" of other sentient beings. If you ask an average human, this is exactly how they perceive their own self - as an "I"/self separate from other selves.

No, it will not result in any spacing-out, the spiritual activity of consciousness will continue in a fully functional way, actually even in more efficient way than with the sense of separate "I". It is not the "separate me" patina that keeps one from banging into walls. But it is only possible to prove this claim experientially. But if you don't believe it is useful or possible, then please do not do it.

There is a consideration here which should be noted. Most spiritual people, and most people in general, will agree the manifestation of concrete Love in the world is a high if not the highest Ideal. In our animalistic state (or the lower intellectual state driven by animalistic tendencies), we have love for things - for what some quality of experience or phenomena, including other beings, brings to us in the way of immediate pleasure, happiness, satisfaction, etc. When we speak of experientially eliminating the sense-idea of separate self, we are referring to a more animalistic consciousness. The animal doesn't perceive itself as "I", separate from other "I"s in the world. It flows along directly with spiritual impulses which are shared by many other beings. And that is exactly why it is incapable of manifesting a higher Love in the world. This higher Love can only have its seed in beings who are willing to sacrifice something of themselves in relation to other beings conceived-perceived as separate from themselves. There must be not only things, but specific souls to Love.

Of course that is not the end of the Love story. The self must always be maintained for this Love to manifest, and it is through Wisdom that the self can gradually expand itself into the living interconnections which weave the collective Self through the beings of the Earthly kingdoms. It discerns the specific living Souls standing behind all the phenomena of the world and uniting them into coherent Ideas which unfold through the elemental sheaths. Love and Wisdom can only manifest in the world when they are held as polar complements, rhythmically reinforcing one another. Dissolving the sense-idea of self into either the perceptual spectrum or the mystical Oneness maintains the animalistic love for mere 'things' - even the Oneness is experienced and contemplated as something akin to a law of nature, an abstract spiritual force. All the specific soul beings who constellate this force, with their lawful structures and spiritual activity, are seen as secondary and somewhat irrelevant to the overall aim of experiencing Oneness to address the 'root cause' of egoity.

The high ideal of Love is willing to endure and suffer arduous change within the elemental sheaths, because it knows through Wisdom that this is the only way Oneness can manifest itself in the world of living souls. It sets no arbitrary boundaries to this process of change and knows no limits. It sacrifices the personal pleasure and satisfaction of Oneness now so that the Oneness can be progressively realized as not only imaginative experience, but as living physical reality, for all Earthly souls through the incarnational cycles to come.

PS - I am just throwing this out there as a general consideration. I'm not asking if you agree with it, because I already know you disagree, even based solely on what you have already written on this thread.

[Stranger]

There is a consideration here which should be noted. Most spiritual people, and most people in general, will agree the manifestation of concrete Love in the world is a high if not the highest Ideal. In our animalistic state (or the lower intellectual state driven by animalistic tendencies), we have love for things - for what some quality of experience or phenomena, including other beings, brings to us in the way of immediate pleasure, happiness, satisfaction, etc. When we speak of experientially eliminating the sense-idea of separate self, we are referring to a more animalistic consciousness. The animal doesn't perceive itself as "I", separate from other "I"s in the world. It flows along directly with spiritual impulses which are shared by many other beings. And that is exactly why it is incapable of manifesting a higher Love in the world. This higher Love can only have its seed in beings who are willing to sacrifice something of themselves in relation to other beings conceived-perceived as separate from themselves. There must be not only things, but specific souls to Love. And if such goal would be unachievable in our human form then Christ would not give us such commandment, which means that it is achievable for us in our human form.

Correct, there is love between separate selves, and this love is definitely a progressive evolutionary step forward from the animalistic instinctive love (that animals have for their offspring or mates). However, there is a higher level of Love in the state of Oneness which Christ was talking about, and that is a different kind of Love compared to love between separate selves. This does not mean that the love between separate selves is "bad" in any way, it is indeed a "seed" for further developing into the Divine Love, but it is still inferior compared to the Divine Love in Oneness, otherwise Christ would not give us his Love commandment pointing exactly to Love in Oneness. So, we are called to eventually grow into the Divine Love in Oneness that is unconditional, universal and not conditioned on the existence of separate selves/souls to be loved. And this Love is achievable for us in our human form, otherwise Christ would not give us such commandment.

A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another (John 13:34)
I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity ... I have made you[e] known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”. (John 17)

[AshvinP]

There is a consideration here which should be noted. Most spiritual people, and most people in general, will agree the manifestation of concrete Love in the world is a high if not the highest Ideal. In our animalistic state (or the lower intellectual state driven by animalistic tendencies), we have love for things - for what some quality of experience or phenomena, including other beings, brings to us in the way of immediate pleasure, happiness, satisfaction, etc. When we speak of experientially eliminating the sense-idea of separate self, we are referring to a more animalistic consciousness. The animal doesn't perceive itself as "I", separate from other "I"s in the world. It flows along directly with spiritual impulses which are shared by many other beings. And that is exactly why it is incapable of manifesting a higher Love in the world. This higher Love can only have its seed in beings who are willing to sacrifice something of themselves in relation to other beings conceived-perceived as separate from themselves. There must be not only things, but specific souls to Love. And if such goal would be unachievable in our human form then Christ would not give us such commandment, which means that it is achievable for us in our human form.

Correct, there is love between separate selves, and this love is definitely a progressive evolutionary step forward from the animalistic instinctive love (that animals have for their offspring or mates). However, there is a higher level of Love in the state of Oneness which Christ was talking about, and that is a different kind of Love compared to love between separate selves. This does not mean that the love between separate selves is "bad" in any way, it is indeed a "seed" for further developing into the Divine Love, but it is still inferior compared to the Divine Love in Oneness, otherwise Christ would not give us his Love commandment pointing to exactly to Love in Oneness. So, we are called to eventually grow into the Divine Love in Oneness that is unconditional, universal and not conditioned on the existence of separate selves/souls to be loved. And this Love is achievable for us in our human form, otherwise Christ would not give us such commandment.

A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another (John 13:34)
I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity ... I have made you[e] known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”. (John 17)

The above is well stated. Eventually growing into the Divine Love is exactly the issue. The growth we are all familiar with goes through lawful developmental stages, through nested incarnational cycles that we have discussed many times already. The sheaths which the Christ-being incarnated into also went through their own development which made possible a sort of 'condensed' image, within threefold archetypal years, of the entire Earthly human evolutionary drama which unfolds over many ages in its own threefold archetypal structure. We can't use the linear temporal intellect to analyze these Christ events and then extrapolate conclusions for what is possible for humans, as was done previously.

So now, our divergence is only regarding whether or not the particular current human form in its genetic/karmic composition is fully malleable for harmonious co-existence with the state of realized Divine Self free of dualistic separate-"I" delusion (I do not deny that it is partially malleable)

We need to eventually discern how the physical sheath we are familiar with is the outer expression of threefold nested sheaths which are supra-sensory and much more malleable, related to the elemental-archetypal kingdoms as Cleric related previously. The more we work on these sheaths, through living consciousness of their dynamic becoming, the more we expand the malleability of the physical form. These things can all make sense for us and of us if we are willing to put in the Loving work which endures suffering and sacrifice in the quest for the Christ Ideal, the Holy Grail. This isn't at all unrelated to the OP - whether the human form as a holistic organism can attain harmonious co-existence with the Divine Self is exactly what informs how we can go about bringing that co-existence to concrete realization, and what paths will actually serve as obstacles to that realization, no matter how 'counter-intuitive' (to the intellect) it may seem. By convincing ourselves we are capable of attaining the transfigured or resurrected Christ state now in this current incarnation (or all the steps necessary to attain it after death), we prolong the actual realization of those states for all humanity. Only through a living Wisdom can we attain the knowledge that we are in it for the long haul and therefore the motivation to be truly selfless with our Love for God and our neighbors.

[Stranger]

We need to eventually discern how the physical sheath we are familiar with is the outer expression of threefold nested sheaths which are supra-sensory and much more malleable, related to the elemental-archetypal kingdoms as Cleric related previously. The more we work on these sheaths, through living consciousness of their dynamic becoming, the more we expand the malleability of the physical form. These things can all make sense for us and of us if we are willing to put in the Loving work which endures suffering and sacrifice in the quest for the Christ Ideal, the Holy Grail. This isn't at all unrelated to the OP - whether the human form as a holistic organism can attain harmonious co-existence with the Divine Self is exactly what informs how we can go about bringing that co-existence to concrete realization, and what paths will actually serve as obstacles to that realization, no matter how 'counter-intuitive' (to the intellect) it may seem. By convincing ourselves we are capable of attaining the transfigured or resurrected Christ state now in this current incarnation (or all the steps necessary to attain it after death), we prolong the actual realization of those states for all humanity. Only through a living Wisdom can we attain the knowledge that we are in it for the long haul and therefore the motivation to be truly selfless with our Love for God and our neighbors.

Surely having such motivation is a good thing. Even if it turns out that the current human composition is not malleable for complete integration with the Divine, something will probably happen to change it to make it malleable, whether it will be another Divine intervention, or some technological breakthrough that humans will achieve to change their bodily composition, or may be something else. But regardless of all of that, we surely need to do the work and follow the path shown to us by Christ with whatever motivation works for us

[Federica]

We need to eventually discern how the physical sheath we are familiar with is the outer expression of threefold nested sheaths which are supra-sensory and much more malleable, related to the elemental-archetypal kingdoms as Cleric related previously. The more we work on these sheaths, through living consciousness of their dynamic becoming, the more we expand the malleability of the physical form. These things can all make sense for us and of us if we are willing to put in the Loving work which endures suffering and sacrifice in the quest for the Christ Ideal, the Holy Grail. This isn't at all unrelated to the OP - whether the human form as a holistic organism can attain harmonious co-existence with the Divine Self is exactly what informs how we can go about bringing that co-existence to concrete realization, and what paths will actually serve as obstacles to that realization, no matter how 'counter-intuitive' (to the intellect) it may seem. By convincing ourselves we are capable of attaining the transfigured or resurrected Christ state now in this current incarnation (or all the steps necessary to attain it after death), we prolong the actual realization of those states for all humanity. Only through a living Wisdom can we attain the knowledge that we are in it for the long haul and therefore the motivation to be truly selfless with our Love for God and our neighbors.

Surely having such motivation is a good thing. Even if it turns out that the current human composition is not malleable for complete integration with the Divine, something will probably happen to change it to make it malleable, whether it will be another Divine intervention, or some technological breakthrough that humans will achieve to change their bodily composition, or may be something else. But regardless of all of that, we surely need to do the work and follow the path shown to us by Christ with whatever motivation works for us

"Whatever works for us"... also known as the glorification of No-Truth.

[AshvinP]

We need to eventually discern how the physical sheath we are familiar with is the outer expression of threefold nested sheaths which are supra-sensory and much more malleable, related to the elemental-archetypal kingdoms as Cleric related previously. The more we work on these sheaths, through living consciousness of their dynamic becoming, the more we expand the malleability of the physical form. These things can all make sense for us and of us if we are willing to put in the Loving work which endures suffering and sacrifice in the quest for the Christ Ideal, the Holy Grail. This isn't at all unrelated to the OP - whether the human form as a holistic organism can attain harmonious co-existence with the Divine Self is exactly what informs how we can go about bringing that co-existence to concrete realization, and what paths will actually serve as obstacles to that realization, no matter how 'counter-intuitive' (to the intellect) it may seem. By convincing ourselves we are capable of attaining the transfigured or resurrected Christ state now in this current incarnation (or all the steps necessary to attain it after death), we prolong the actual realization of those states for all humanity. Only through a living Wisdom can we attain the knowledge that we are in it for the long haul and therefore the motivation to be truly selfless with our Love for God and our neighbors.

Surely having such motivation is a good thing. Even if it turns out that the current human composition is not malleable for complete integration with the Divine, something will probably happen to change it to make it malleable, whether it will be another Divine intervention, or some technological breakthrough that humans will achieve to change their bodily composition, or may be something else. But regardless of all of that, we surely need to do the work and follow the path shown to us by Christ with whatever motivation works for us

How do you reconcile the quest for spiritual freedom with this disposition of, "something will probably happen"? Leaving all philosophical and spiritual analysis aside, I wonder what you make of the following quote. Isn't it a self-fulfilling prophecy if everyone were to assume something might happen to us down the road to make our form malleable, instead of engaging the hard inner work to help make it malleable ourselves? (note: this is done in cooperation with the Divine hierarchies, so salvation is a rhythmic polarity of faith and works).

All optimism and pessimism are thereby refuted. Optimism assumes that the world is perfect, that it must be a source of the greatest satisfaction for man. But if this is to be the case, man would first have to develop within himself those needs through which to arrive at this satisfaction. He would have to gain from the objects what it is he demands. Pessimism believes that the world is constituted in such a way that it leaves man eternally dissatisfied, that he can never be happy. What a pitiful creature man would be if nature offered him satisfaction from outside! All lamentations about an existence that does not satisfy us, about this hard world, must disappear before the thought that no power in the world could satisfy us if we ourselves did not first lend it that magical power by which it uplifts and gladdens us. Satisfaction must come to us out of what we make of things, out of our own creations. Only that is worthy of free beings.

[Stranger]

How do you reconcile the quest for spiritual freedom with this disposition of, "something will probably happen"? Leaving all philosophical and spiritual analysis aside, I wonder what you make of the following quote. Isn't it a self-fulfilling prophecy if everyone were to assume something might happen to us down the road to make our form malleable, instead of engaging the hard inner work to help make it malleable ourselves? (note: this is done in cooperation with the Divine hierarchies, so salvation is a rhythmic polarity of faith/love and works).

My approach is pragmatic: we need to do the work now as much as we can to make it malleable as much as it can be malleable. If/when we find a "hard limit" to the malleability, we will then figure out how to get around this problem when we get to that limit. We do not know at this point if this limit exists or not. And at this point we do not need to worry about it because most of us are quite far from reaching this limit and there is still much work that can and should be done while we are in this human life. We can not predict the future and it is not our business to do that, but our business is to do the job we should do each day one at a time while clearly knowing the direction we are going.

Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. (Matthew 6:34)

My motivation is only this one regardless where and in which form my individuated consciousness activity of the Spirit exists. If it happens to be in human form (as it is now) then be it in human form: "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." (Matt 6. 33)