The Nature of the sensory world or do we really *know* the ultimate ground of reality?

[AshvinP]

I also wanted to add one note on the above, which is hopefully helpful. Humans are the only be-ings with an 'I' on the physical plane. When we see another human, it is their 'I' which mostly comes to outer expression through expressions, gestures, speech, actions. For animals it is mostly the soul-astral life of impulses, desires, passions, etc. which comes to outer expression. For plants it is the etheric life forces which come to expression (also external astral forces in the blossom/fruit). And for minerals it is dense physical body which comes to outer expression. The animals, plants, and minerals also have group-souls or 'I'-centers on the astral and higher planes.

Yet there are even lower sub-sensible beings in nature's economy who are known as 'elementals'. We could say they have negative members of their organization, in the sense that their dense bodies are in retrograde stages of evolution which are lower than the minerals. Those bodies are so coarse that we can no longer perceive them with our physical consciousness (but we can easily discern the effects of their influences in nature, which generally relate to rhythmic processes). These are the beings we are generally referring to in terms of those which comrpise the natural functions of our organs and what not. These beings come into manifestation through our activity and can also be released from their 'imprisonment' through our moral spiritual activity, which has direct relevance to our health. It is true that all beings on the physical plane are related to an 'I' on some plane or another, but we shouldn't imagine that we are in direct control of these supra-sensory 'I'-centers.

Thank you Ashvin, your notes are definitely helpful. As I said yesterday to Eugene, I don't have direct knowledge of the hierarchies, therefore detailed illustrations are always welcome and helpful. Be assured, though, I was not imagining that "we are in direct control of these supra-sensory 'I'-centers." I think that an intuitive (in common sense) heartfelt knowledge is sufficient, in this case, to protect against such misunderstandings. As we said yesterday, a lung cannot decide to fly off of its seat, and the lawfulness it is submitted to, naturally applies to our direct relation to it, as being nested within our own being in organ-form. But again, the details you share are appreciated. For example, in my recent reading of the various types of elemental beings in Steiner, I had not realized their lower-than-mineral quality. Besides, I am glad you find Martinus' symbols inspiring! Although, for my own sensibility, nothing compares to Steiner, I am experiencing a true connection with Martinus' simpler wording and symbols, and I am grateful Eugene had this initiative to share this work with us.

Right, the principle you are elucidating, and Martinus as well, is exactly correct. There is a lawful nested structure of the Cosmic organism and we can only gradually illuminate any given part of that structure by considering it in the context of the Whole. We expand our aperture of that context through higher cognitive development, which requires spiritual training working on all fronts of our WFT life.

It is fascinating the rationalizations we come up with to maintain human consciousness at the apex of the nested hierarchical structure. Everything above us gets increasingly nebulous, atomic, and 'free', so there is no corresponding responsibility to serve the proper functioning of those archetypal organs and systems, like there is for our cells, tissues, organs, and systems to serve the proper functioning of the individual human organism. Eugene mentioned the Hermetic maxim, 'as above, so below', and this should be taken more seriously. The elemental/mineral forces are highly ordered and structured, yet so are the forces of the fixed stars and planets. The latter never deviate from their course and wreak havoc in the Solar system.

This should indicate to us that their 'freedom' is not like ours. In fact, the highest beings who behold the countenance of the Godhead cannot do anything other than execute its Will. The same is basically true for all the hierarchies down to the angelic beings. Even when these beings 'rebel' against the progressive guidance, it is inspired in them from without. They could not do anything other than rebel. With humans it is not the same at this stage - we genuinely have the freedom to choose service or rebellion in our thinking. That is precisely because our thought-consciousness has been isolated from the living currents of the Cosmos. Now it is our choice whether we will remain in rebellion or not, and each individual must make this choice over and over again - no beings will force it upon us during life or after death. Only we can enslave ourselves.

The “evil spirits” which deprive man of his freedom are not at all beings of the so-called “hierarchies of evil” or “fallen hierarchies”. Neither Satan, nor Belial, nor Lucifer, nor Mephistopheles have ever deprived anyone of his freedom. Temptation is their only weapon and this presupposes the freedom of he who is tempted. But possession by an “evil spirit” has nothing to do with temptation. It is invariably the same thing as with Frankenstein’s monster. One engenders an elemental being and one subsequently becomes the slave of one’s own creation. The “demons” or “evil spirits” of the New Testament are called today in psychotherapy “neuroses of obsession”, “neuroses of fear”, “fixed ideas”, etc. They have been discovered by contemporary psychiatrists and are recognised as real—i.e. as “parasitic psychic organisms” independent of the conscious human will and tending to subjugate it. But the devil is not there to no avail—although not in the sense of direct participation. He observes the law—which protects human freedom and is the inviolable convention between the hierarchies of the “right” and those of the “left”—and never violates it, as stands out in the example of the story of Job. One need not fear the devil, but rather the perverse tendencies in oneself! For these perverse human tendencies can deprive us of our freedom and enslave us. Worse still, they can avail themselves of our imagination and inventive faculties and lead us to creations which can become the scourge of mankind. The atomic bomb and the hydrogen bomb are flagrant examples of this. Man with the possible perversity of his warped imagination is far more dangerous than the devil and his legions. For man is not bound by the convention concluded between heaven and hell; he can go beyond the limits of the law and engender arbitrarily malicious forces whose nature and action are beyond the framework of the law…such being the Molochs and other “gods” of Canaa, Phoenecia, Carthage, ancient Mexico and other lands, which exacted human sacrifice. One has to guard against accusing the beings of the hierarchies of evil to their detriment of having played the role of Molochs, these being only creatures of the perverse collective human will and imagination. These are egregores, engendered by collective perversity, just as there exist the “demons” or “evil spirits” engendered by individuals.

-Meditations on the Tarot: A Journey into Christian Hermeticism by Anonymous

[Federica]

It is fascinating the rationalizations we come up with to maintain human consciousness at the apex of the nested hierarchical structure. Everything above us gets increasingly nebulous, atomic, and 'free', so there is no corresponding responsibility to serve the proper functioning of those archetypal organs and systems, like there is for our cells, tissues, organs, and systems to serve the proper functioning of the individual human organism. Eugene mentioned the Hermetic maxim, 'as above, so below', and this should be taken more seriously. The elemental/mineral forces are highly ordered and structured, yet so are the forces of the fixed stars and planets. The latter never deviate from their course and wreak havoc in the Solar system.

This should indicate to us that their 'freedom' is not like ours. In fact, the highest beings who behold the countenance of the Godhead cannot do anything other than execute its Will. The same is basically true for all the hierarchies down to the angelic beings. Even when these beings 'rebel' against the progressive guidance, it is inspired in them from without. They could not do anything other than rebel. With humans it is not the same at this stage - we genuinely have the freedom to choose service or rebellion in our thinking. That is precisely because our thought-consciousness has been isolated from the living currents of the Cosmos. Now it is our choice whether we will remain in rebellion or not, and each individual must make this choice over and over again - no beings will force it upon us during life or after death. Only we can enslave ourselves.

The “evil spirits” which deprive man of his freedom are not at all beings of the so-called “hierarchies of evil” or “fallen hierarchies”. Neither Satan, nor Belial, nor Lucifer, nor Mephistopheles have ever deprived anyone of his freedom. Temptation is their only weapon and this presupposes the freedom of he who is tempted. But possession by an “evil spirit” has nothing to do with temptation. It is invariably the same thing as with Frankenstein’s monster. One engenders an elemental being and one subsequently becomes the slave of one’s own creation. The “demons” or “evil spirits” of the New Testament are called today in psychotherapy “neuroses of obsession”, “neuroses of fear”, “fixed ideas”, etc. They have been discovered by contemporary psychiatrists and are recognised as real—i.e. as “parasitic psychic organisms” independent of the conscious human will and tending to subjugate it. But the devil is not there to no avail—although not in the sense of direct participation. He observes the law—which protects human freedom and is the inviolable convention between the hierarchies of the “right” and those of the “left”—and never violates it, as stands out in the example of the story of Job. One need not fear the devil, but rather the perverse tendencies in oneself! For these perverse human tendencies can deprive us of our freedom and enslave us. Worse still, they can avail themselves of our imagination and inventive faculties and lead us to creations which can become the scourge of mankind. The atomic bomb and the hydrogen bomb are flagrant examples of this. Man with the possible perversity of his warped imagination is far more dangerous than the devil and his legions. For man is not bound by the convention concluded between heaven and hell; he can go beyond the limits of the law and engender arbitrarily malicious forces whose nature and action are beyond the framework of the law…such being the Molochs and other “gods” of Canaa, Phoenecia, Carthage, ancient Mexico and other lands, which exacted human sacrifice. One has to guard against accusing the beings of the hierarchies of evil to their detriment of having played the role of Molochs, these being only creatures of the perverse collective human will and imagination. These are egregores, engendered by collective perversity, just as there exist the “demons” or “evil spirits” engendered by individuals.

-Meditations on the Tarot: A Journey into Christian Hermeticism by Anonymous

Yes, I understand, and another way to say it would be that the hierarchies are already free, they are freedom's expression, while we still have to be it, we are in the process of becoming it, in time. And our grasping of time is as provisional as the incompleteness of our freedom. It reminds me of:

Freedom means being able to will the Good and seeing, or attaining to the Idea of the Good is a condition sine qua non of willing it. Hence, only God can be ultimately free because only God sees everything. But we ca become so by participation. We are provisionally free, and more to the extent that we cleave, with our wills, to God’s. Our unfreedom, then, consists in everything in ourselves and in nature that hinders our willing of the Good. the idea of freedom

The passage you quote from Meditations on the Tarot also sounds very appropriate. It reminds me of this recent exchange with Lou. As you say, only we can enslave ourselves.

We disagree. I do see constructive/destructive as a choice, a matter of balance as you say. It seems obvious with whether to use nuclear science for war or low-carbon energy (..)

Surely some can drop nuclear bombs and others ask AI to 'think' for them, but is this creative freedom, or is it more like slavery?

[Federica]

Fully agree with the inner work and transformation. But regarding the "trust in the first place", what happens if we put our trust in someone who turns out to be a false spiritual teacher or a pseudo-spiritual-scientist? We know too many examples of false teachers and sect leaders in whom people put their trust only to later have detrimental consequences on their psychological and spiritual health. So, before we put some trust onto any spiritual authority, we need to apply our spiritual discernment, as much as we have developed and to the best of our ability, to see if what these people claim do align with the harmony of facts of our inner and outer experience. And that applies to both incarnate and discarnate beings (because there are many false teachers in the discarnate realms just like there are in the incarnate ones, or as the Hermetics say, "As above so below").

Eugene,

I'm reading the following, that speaks to the fear of encountering false guides, that I would like you to read too:

The certainty of being on the right path is one we can have when we examine in full waking consciousness what comes towards our soul, what 'tongue' this being speaks to us in, and whether it truly expresses selflessness, love and truth. In other words, whether this being is the same one who first motivated us to embark on the Christian path of spiritual schooling. The ahrimanic powers may present themselves in a persuasive garb, invoking well reasoned demands and arguments; and the luciferic powers may flicker seductively and whisper in our ears that we are already ripe for a much loftier ascent. But the truly Christian quality is one we can always recognize in the being who does not try to persuade; who seems 'merely' to stand there, leaving us entirely free - like an admonishing, loving conscience, grave and still. His spiritual beauty reveals itself only once the pupil turns towards Him out of his own impulse.

[von Halle, J. (2011). Descent into the Depths of the Earth. Temple Lodge Publishing]

[Federica]

Considering the nature of the sensory world and its ultimate ground from a slightly different angle - that of the nature of our Earth-organism including all beings living in its sphere - I wonder if someone (Ashvin, and anyone else who wants to weigh in) has come in contact with the work of Are Thoresen. He presents the elemental beings of the Earth as the first level of spiritual experience we can access, once we consciously pierce beyond the level of the screen of perceptions. On this forum it has been often said that the first sense of spiritual reality we gain is directed to one's own soul life and destiny, leading to the experience of the Guardian. Therefore I wonder: are these two co-existing perspectives? Is it maybe that the former happens through concentration, and the latter through meditation?

I have watched a few videos with Are Thoresen. He speaks of the Nordic path of initiation, which Steiner referred to in a lecture cycle in 1912. Some time ago I read and appreciated those lectures. However, my impressions of the content I could watch so far are mixed. I feel that his experiences of those worlds are absolutely authentic, but I am not sure whether his recommendations and exercises, which I have tried out, are entirely 'safe'. As I am trying not to judge, I would appreciate it if anyone had anything to comment on in this regard. Thank you! A few links:

Conversation with the Spiritual Scientist

Online workshop with RS Branch Chicago

Conversation with Brian James on the Medicine Path Podcast

Presenting the three Elemental Kingdoms at MysTech

[AshvinP]

Considering the nature of the sensory world and its ultimate ground from a slightly different angle - that of the nature of our Earth-organism including all beings living in its sphere - I wonder if someone (Ashvin, and anyone else who wants to weigh in) has come in contact with the work of Are Thoresen. He presents the elemental beings of the Earth as the first level of spiritual experience we can access, once we consciously pierce beyond the level of the screen of perceptions. On this forum it has been often said that the first sense of spiritual reality we gain is directed to one's own soul life and destiny, leading to the experience of the Guardian. Therefore I wonder: are these two co-existing perspectives? Is it maybe that the former happens through concentration, and the latter through meditation?

I have watched a few videos with Are Thoresen. He speaks of the Nordic path of initiation, which Steiner referred to in a lecture cycle in 1912. Some time ago I read and appreciated those lectures. However, my impressions of the content I could watch so far are mixed. I feel that his experiences of those worlds are absolutely authentic, but I am not sure whether his recommendations and exercises, which I have tried out, are entirely 'safe'. As I am trying not to judge, I would appreciate it if anyone had anything to comment on in this regard. Thank you! A few links:

Conversation with the Spiritual Scientist

Online workshop with RS Branch Chicago

Conversation with Brian James on the Medicine Path Podcast

Presenting the three Elemental Kingdoms at MysTech

Federica,

I cannot speak much on Thoresen or his work on the northern path of initiation because I am mostly unfamiliar with it. I am very interested in learning more about it, however, and have ordered his latest book and started watching some of the links. At a more general level, it makes sense that we meet the elemental beings first on the path of intuitive thinking. When we begin penetrating into the deeper currents of thinking -feeling-will in our soul life, we are first coming into contact with the elemental beings who also govern outer nature. We should remember the latter is a polar reflection of the former, i.e. outer nature is an image of our soul-structure which spans all the kingdoms. It is a pretty complicated subject and hard to comprehend at first. The elemental beings of the natural kingdoms and the physical-etheric elements are like offspring of the higher hierarchies that don't have an independent will of their own but execute the will of those higher beings, including humans. We are always 'commanding' these beings within our organism and outer nature to some extent, but since we are so unconscious of their spiritual nature and influences, we direct them in all sorts of irresponsible and cross-conflicting ways. Every time we manipulate nature and our own organism, that is what we are doing. Many illnesses/diseases can be understood as a result of that human activity including all those found in animals and plants. I'm currently reading a book called Symphonies of Creation by Oskar Kurten which goes into very great depth about the threefold elemental kingdoms and the various beings involved in them. They are the source of the very highest ideational forces of physical (1st), life (2nd), and soul (3rd) formations in the Cosmos which also make up our bodies. I only read one section at a time to digest it properly, since it is so rich in detail.

I am not familiar with Thoresen's exercises either. I noticed that he speaks of letting parts of his body die or fall asleep and then excarnating his thinking, feeling, and will through those parts into the Earth or Cosmos. That is something similar to what we were discussing on the other thread in terms of Steiner's lecture on the 12 senses and reaching spiritual realities through the sense organs when they are put to sleep. but I haven't come to any concrete indications that he gives on how one actually trains for it. In his own case, it seems that he awakened to this capacity as a natural gift when he was a child and just started experimenting with it in various ways. He seems pretty clear that it is not the same as the path described in the Knowledge of Higher Worlds for ex., and it only became possible to do safely in the last few decades and years. So I'm still not really sure what that's all about, although I'm sure it's related to the path of Christ in the etheric and through the kingdoms of Nature.

[Federica]

Considering the nature of the sensory world and its ultimate ground from a slightly different angle - that of the nature of our Earth-organism including all beings living in its sphere - I wonder if someone (Ashvin, and anyone else who wants to weigh in) has come in contact with the work of Are Thoresen. He presents the elemental beings of the Earth as the first level of spiritual experience we can access, once we consciously pierce beyond the level of the screen of perceptions. On this forum it has been often said that the first sense of spiritual reality we gain is directed to one's own soul life and destiny, leading to the experience of the Guardian. Therefore I wonder: are these two co-existing perspectives? Is it maybe that the former happens through concentration, and the latter through meditation?

I have watched a few videos with Are Thoresen. He speaks of the Nordic path of initiation, which Steiner referred to in a lecture cycle in 1912. Some time ago I read and appreciated those lectures. However, my impressions of the content I could watch so far are mixed. I feel that his experiences of those worlds are absolutely authentic, but I am not sure whether his recommendations and exercises, which I have tried out, are entirely 'safe'. As I am trying not to judge, I would appreciate it if anyone had anything to comment on in this regard. Thank you! A few links:

Conversation with the Spiritual Scientist

Online workshop with RS Branch Chicago

Conversation with Brian James on the Medicine Path Podcast

Presenting the three Elemental Kingdoms at MysTech

Federica,

I cannot speak much on Thoresen or his work on the northern path of initiation because I am mostly unfamiliar with it. I am very interested in learning more about it, however, and have ordered his latest book and started watching some of the links. At a more general level, it makes sense that we meet the elemental beings first on the path of intuitive thinking. When we begin penetrating into the deeper currents of thinking -feeling-will in our soul life, we are first coming into contact with the elemental beings who also govern outer nature. We should remember the latter is a polar reflection of the former, i.e. outer nature is an image of our soul-structure which spans all the kingdoms. It is a pretty complicated subject and hard to comprehend at first. The elemental beings of the natural kingdoms and the physical-etheric elements are like offspring of the higher hierarchies that don't have an independent will of their own but execute the will of those higher beings, including humans. We are always 'commanding' these beings within our organism and outer nature to some extent, but since we are so unconscious of their spiritual nature and influences, we direct them in all sorts of irresponsible and cross-conflicting ways. Every time we manipulate nature and our own organism, that is what we are doing. Many illnesses/diseases can be understood as a result of that human activity including all those found in animals and plants. I'm currently reading a book called Symphonies of Creation by Oskar Kurten which goes into very great depth about the threefold elemental kingdoms and the various beings involved in them. They are the source of the very highest ideational forces of physical (1st), life (2nd), and soul (3rd) formations in the Cosmos which also make up our bodies. I only read one section at a time to digest it properly, since it is so rich in detail.

I am not familiar with Thoresen's exercises either. I noticed that he speaks of letting parts of his body die or fall asleep and then excarnating his thinking, feeling, and will through those parts into the Earth or Cosmos. That is something similar to what we were discussing on the other thread in terms of Steiner's lecture on the 12 senses and reaching spiritual realities through the sense organs when they are put to sleep. but I haven't come to any concrete indications that he gives on how one actually trains for it. In his own case, it seems that he awakened to this capacity as a natural gift when he was a child and just started experimenting with it in various ways. He seems pretty clear that it is not the same as the path described in the Knowledge of Higher Worlds for ex., and it only became possible to do safely in the last few decades and years. So I'm still not really sure what that's all about, although I'm sure it's related to the path of Christ in the etheric and through the kingdoms of Nature.

Ashvin,

Thanks for your comments. The book by Kurten is on my list, but I have so much left to read, it's really hard to choose what to read first!

Regardless of how universal and 'walkable' this Nordic way of concentrating on sensory perception will turn out to be, it’s very instructive that someone argues this is the current, most accessible approach to the higher worlds. I think it makes it immediately clear how today one really needs to be independent, active, and free, including from Steiner’s own guidance, and from the wealth of teachings Steiner communicated to help modern spiritual seekers along their journey. I used to think of HTKTHW as an ever valid, foundational guide, whose principles and exercises are, and will remain, stable, grounded in solid spiritual realities, therefore universally effective, only waiting for us to work our way up to every stage. I must admit, I don’t feel very ready to digest the possibility that all this is going out of date, so to say. Still, we are now faced with the idea that this way of approaching the higher worlds may be closing, or getting utterly difficult, because not enough people are practicing it, and because evolution naturally and incessantly rolls out new waves of inner and outer events. And we learn that Steiner himself warned against that risk, in the last moments of his life. Thoresen mentions a new book, not yet published in English, Rudolf Steiner's path of suffering, where those ideas and other late dialogues are collected.

It would make sense that the free human being not only has to make a free decision to devote life to the pursuit of high ideals, but has to also become more and more independent, and has to sort of elbow an individual path of striving towards Christ, in and through the intricacy of ever evolving higher worlds. Surely a challenging idea, but also a useful, educative one, that now appears in the form of this Nordic path.

[AshvinP]

Considering the nature of the sensory world and its ultimate ground from a slightly different angle - that of the nature of our Earth-organism including all beings living in its sphere - I wonder if someone (Ashvin, and anyone else who wants to weigh in) has come in contact with the work of Are Thoresen. He presents the elemental beings of the Earth as the first level of spiritual experience we can access, once we consciously pierce beyond the level of the screen of perceptions. On this forum it has been often said that the first sense of spiritual reality we gain is directed to one's own soul life and destiny, leading to the experience of the Guardian. Therefore I wonder: are these two co-existing perspectives? Is it maybe that the former happens through concentration, and the latter through meditation?

I have watched a few videos with Are Thoresen. He speaks of the Nordic path of initiation, which Steiner referred to in a lecture cycle in 1912. Some time ago I read and appreciated those lectures. However, my impressions of the content I could watch so far are mixed. I feel that his experiences of those worlds are absolutely authentic, but I am not sure whether his recommendations and exercises, which I have tried out, are entirely 'safe'. As I am trying not to judge, I would appreciate it if anyone had anything to comment on in this regard. Thank you! A few links:

Conversation with the Spiritual Scientist

Online workshop with RS Branch Chicago

Conversation with Brian James on the Medicine Path Podcast

Presenting the three Elemental Kingdoms at MysTech

Federica,

I cannot speak much on Thoresen or his work on the northern path of initiation because I am mostly unfamiliar with it. I am very interested in learning more about it, however, and have ordered his latest book and started watching some of the links. At a more general level, it makes sense that we meet the elemental beings first on the path of intuitive thinking. When we begin penetrating into the deeper currents of thinking -feeling-will in our soul life, we are first coming into contact with the elemental beings who also govern outer nature. We should remember the latter is a polar reflection of the former, i.e. outer nature is an image of our soul-structure which spans all the kingdoms. It is a pretty complicated subject and hard to comprehend at first. The elemental beings of the natural kingdoms and the physical-etheric elements are like offspring of the higher hierarchies that don't have an independent will of their own but execute the will of those higher beings, including humans. We are always 'commanding' these beings within our organism and outer nature to some extent, but since we are so unconscious of their spiritual nature and influences, we direct them in all sorts of irresponsible and cross-conflicting ways. Every time we manipulate nature and our own organism, that is what we are doing. Many illnesses/diseases can be understood as a result of that human activity including all those found in animals and plants. I'm currently reading a book called Symphonies of Creation by Oskar Kurten which goes into very great depth about the threefold elemental kingdoms and the various beings involved in them. They are the source of the very highest ideational forces of physical (1st), life (2nd), and soul (3rd) formations in the Cosmos which also make up our bodies. I only read one section at a time to digest it properly, since it is so rich in detail.

I am not familiar with Thoresen's exercises either. I noticed that he speaks of letting parts of his body die or fall asleep and then excarnating his thinking, feeling, and will through those parts into the Earth or Cosmos. That is something similar to what we were discussing on the other thread in terms of Steiner's lecture on the 12 senses and reaching spiritual realities through the sense organs when they are put to sleep. but I haven't come to any concrete indications that he gives on how one actually trains for it. In his own case, it seems that he awakened to this capacity as a natural gift when he was a child and just started experimenting with it in various ways. He seems pretty clear that it is not the same as the path described in the Knowledge of Higher Worlds for ex., and it only became possible to do safely in the last few decades and years. So I'm still not really sure what that's all about, although I'm sure it's related to the path of Christ in the etheric and through the kingdoms of Nature.

Ashvin,

Regardless of how universal and 'walkable' this Nordic way of concentrating on sensory perception will turn out to be, it’s very instructive that someone argues this is the current, most accessible approach to the higher worlds. I think it makes it immediately clear how today one really needs to be independent, active, and free, including from Steiner’s own guidance, and from the wealth of teachings Steiner communicated to help modern spiritual seekers along their journey. I used to think of HTKTHW as an ever valid, foundational guide, whose principles and exercises are, and will remain, stable, grounded in solid spiritual realities, therefore universally effective, only waiting for us to work our way up to every stage. I must admit, I don’t feel very ready to digest the possibility that all this is going out of date, so to say. Still, we are now faced with the idea that this way of approaching the higher worlds may be closing, or getting utterly difficult, because not enough people are practicing it, and because evolution naturally and incessantly rolls out new waves of inner and outer events. And we learn that Steiner himself warned against that risk, in the last moments of his life. Thoresen mentions a new book, not yet published in English, Rudolf Steiner's path of suffering, where those ideas and other late dialogues are collected.

It would make sense that the free human being not only has to make a free decision to devote life to the pursuit of high ideals, but has to also become more and more independent, and has to sort of elbow an individual path of striving towards Christ, in and through the intricacy of ever evolving higher worlds. Surely a challenging idea, but also a useful, educative one, that now appears in the form of this Nordic path.

Federica,

I'm skeptical of the idea that the other paths to the supersensible etheric, astral, and higher realms have been 'closed'. It may be the case that some people are reading too much into Steiner's comments towards the end of his life, which expressed disappointment with the supersensible faculties of his followers, and using them to justify an exclusivity to the path that is now working for them. It is certainly the case that the exercises found in HTKHW which develop our willing-feeling-thinking forces in a moral way are still valid and necessary because no spiritual perception across the threshold is possible in a healthy way without a strengthening of those moral forces. Clearly, there are quite a few others who have had success on Steiner's path (such as Kurten, or Cleric right here on this forum) and I would count myself as one of them, although at a very basic level and certainly not to the point of clairvoyant faculties. I am able to perceive elementals of the airy element on a dry day, for ex., which are sort of like points of energy that are constantly coming into and out of manifestation. So there is still definitely a lot of room for the expansion of consciousness through prayer, concentration, meditation, and fluid study of spiritual science, as recommended by Steiner. The forces at work in outer nature are the same ones at work in our soul-life.

There are also certainly creative ways to employ those inner soul forces we develop with respect to the inner and outer worlds and to the domains of nature and culture to make the spiritual more transparent within our intuitive organism. It sounds to me like the Northern path is one such way but may even be more difficult for those who have not had an intimate spiritual connection with Nature from childhood, such as people who were never really exposed to Nature that much, like myself. It would be good to actually get some more concrete details on how a person without such an early self-awakening to the Nature forces can cultivate spiritual faculties of perception in the elemental domain, in the way that he describes, through various exercises. Reading through the book so far - "Travels on the Northern Path of Initiation" - and also browsing the chapters I haven't reached yet, it doesn't look like there are any such details. Mostly it is a report of what he has observed through his spiritual observation and what was revealed to him by Vidar, with brief references to Steiner's spiritual scientific research, but not how others can cultivate the same faculties within themselves.

Thanks for your comments. The book by Kurten is on my list, but I have so much left to read, it's really hard to choose what to read first!

I created a diagram inspired by Kurten's work which was intended to help root the concepts in my feeling, as you mentioned, but perhaps it will be helpful for you as well as a reference tool when you eventually get around to the book or when working through Steiner's lectures which often deal with these fourfold associations. I ended up adding a lot more detail than I originally planned so hopefully it isn't too cluttered, but there is also a lot more that could be added in terms of the fourfold relations. The color associations should help us discern some key relations even if we aren't able to clearly conceptualize them yet - we can hold it as a loose holistic image at first. The curved lines show the nesting structure of the spiritual and physical kingdom, for ex. the human kingdom embeds not only the thought forces of its own kingdom but all the forces of the lower ones as well. Or similarly, the solid element functions according to physical laws, while the liquid element functions according to both physical and etheric laws, the gas element according to physical, etheric, and astral laws, and so forth. We should also always remember that these domains are completely interwoven and interpenetrating, for example, we never actually find the solid, liquid, or gas elements in the absence of the warmth element. It is our task in the 4th convolution to conceptually and experientially differentiate them in our consciousness so we can make them objective and understand them at ever-deeper levels in the process of harmonizing their activities. All of this is a snapshot of the relations from our current Earthly perspective within the 4th convolution.

[Federica]

Federica,

I'm skeptical of the idea that the other paths to the supersensible etheric, astral, and higher realms have been 'closed'. It may be the case that some people are reading too much into Steiner's comments towards the end of his life, which expressed disappointment with the supersensible faculties of his followers, and using them to justify an exclusivity to the path that is now working for them. It is certainly the case that the exercises found in HTKHW which develop our willing-feeling-thinking forces in a moral way are still valid and necessary because no spiritual perception across the threshold is possible in a healthy way without a strengthening of those moral forces. Clearly, there are quite a few others who have had success on Steiner's path (such as Kurten, or Cleric right here on this forum) and I would count myself as one of them, although at a very basic level and certainly not to the point of clairvoyant faculties. I am able to perceive elementals of the airy element on a dry day, for ex., which are sort of like points of energy that are constantly coming into and out of manifestation. So there is still definitely a lot of room for the expansion of consciousness through prayer, concentration, meditation, and fluid study of spiritual science, as recommended by Steiner. The forces at work in outer nature are the same ones at work in our soul-life.

There are also certainly creative ways to employ those inner soul forces we develop with respect to the inner and outer worlds and to the domains of nature and culture to make the spiritual more transparent within our intuitive organism. It sounds to me like the Northern path is one such way but may even be more difficult for those who have not had an intimate spiritual connection with Nature from childhood, such as people who were never really exposed to Nature that much, like myself. It would be good to actually get some more concrete details on how a person without such an early self-awakening to the Nature forces can cultivate spiritual faculties of perception in the elemental domain, in the way that he describes, through various exercises. Reading through the book so far - "Travels on the Northern Path of Initiation" - and also browsing the chapters I haven't reached yet, it doesn't look like there are any such details. Mostly it is a report of what he has observed through his spiritual observation and what was revealed to him by Vidar, with brief references to Steiner's spiritual scientific research, but not how others can cultivate the same faculties within themselves.

Thanks for your comments. The book by Kurten is on my list, but I have so much left to read, it's really hard to choose what to read first!

I created a diagram inspired by Kurten's work which was intended to help root the concepts in my feeling, as you mentioned, but perhaps it will be helpful for you as well as a reference tool when you eventually get around to the book or when working through Steiner's lectures which often deal with these fourfold associations. I ended up adding a lot more detail than I originally planned so hopefully it isn't too cluttered, but there is also a lot more that could be added in terms of the fourfold relations. The color associations should help us discern some key relations even if we aren't able to clearly conceptualize them yet - we can hold it as a loose holistic image at first. The curved lines show the nesting structure of the spiritual and physical kingdom, for ex. the human kingdom embeds not only the thought forces of its own kingdom but all the forces of the lower ones as well. Or similarly, the solid element functions according to physical laws, while the liquid element functions according to both physical and etheric laws, the gas element according to physical, etheric, and astral laws, and so forth. We should also always remember that these domains are completely interwoven and interpenetrating, for example, we never actually find the solid, liquid, or gas elements in the absence of the warmth element. It is our task in the 4th convolution to conceptually and experientially differentiate them in our consciousness so we can make them objective and understand them at ever-deeper levels in the process of harmonizing their activities. All of this is a snapshot of the relations from our current Earthly perspective within the 4th convolution.

Ashvin,

Thank you! That's all of great help, and I'm glad to hear that you consider the works of Steiner and their applied aspects fully current, including from your direct spiritual experience. It's encouraging for the present of spiritual science that you have attained these perceptions! Not sure why you don’t want to use the word clairvoyance though. As I understand it, what you describe is precisely clairvoyance, and not of the simplest kind, since those are, I believe, Asuric beings. For my part I have tried once the 12 min concentration on a candle flame, as I was watching the second Thoresen link above, 'together' with the other participants. What I have perceived is sensory perceptions, and also a feeling of discomfort-apprehension. It is that general feeling I wanted to explore, as I believe I’m not anywhere near the level of exercised concentration that would be necessary to pass through sensory perceptions in such remarkable way, and I am much more comfortable with some of Steiner’s less 'spectacular' exercises. Anyway, Thoresen recommends repeating the exercise every day, once or twice a day for two months, letting oneself fade into the flame (or snow, or plant green-ness, or sky, or any other natural object). He also suggests that the exercise is easier if the object of concentration is undergoing a change of state, like a burning candle, or melting snow.

Your graph is really appreciated, thanks! I have now ordered the Kürten book, so it doesn’t go out of print before I get it, and I can put the graph in the book when it arrives. Indeed, I don't see what the colors stand for, though my intellect tells me it has to be strictly related with the act of folding, that brings median features, as well as end features, in close connection with each other. Apart from Devachan, the associations are clear, but I'm afraid a proper understanding of the elemental realms would require that I progress further in my understanding of the fourfold convolutions. I am working on that, from Cleric’s post to the Steiner archive, to the inner work.

[AshvinP]

Federica,

I'm skeptical of the idea that the other paths to the supersensible etheric, astral, and higher realms have been 'closed'. It may be the case that some people are reading too much into Steiner's comments towards the end of his life, which expressed disappointment with the supersensible faculties of his followers, and using them to justify an exclusivity to the path that is now working for them. It is certainly the case that the exercises found in HTKHW which develop our willing-feeling-thinking forces in a moral way are still valid and necessary because no spiritual perception across the threshold is possible in a healthy way without a strengthening of those moral forces. Clearly, there are quite a few others who have had success on Steiner's path (such as Kurten, or Cleric right here on this forum) and I would count myself as one of them, although at a very basic level and certainly not to the point of clairvoyant faculties. I am able to perceive elementals of the airy element on a dry day, for ex., which are sort of like points of energy that are constantly coming into and out of manifestation. So there is still definitely a lot of room for the expansion of consciousness through prayer, concentration, meditation, and fluid study of spiritual science, as recommended by Steiner. The forces at work in outer nature are the same ones at work in our soul-life.

There are also certainly creative ways to employ those inner soul forces we develop with respect to the inner and outer worlds and to the domains of nature and culture to make the spiritual more transparent within our intuitive organism. It sounds to me like the Northern path is one such way but may even be more difficult for those who have not had an intimate spiritual connection with Nature from childhood, such as people who were never really exposed to Nature that much, like myself. It would be good to actually get some more concrete details on how a person without such an early self-awakening to the Nature forces can cultivate spiritual faculties of perception in the elemental domain, in the way that he describes, through various exercises. Reading through the book so far - "Travels on the Northern Path of Initiation" - and also browsing the chapters I haven't reached yet, it doesn't look like there are any such details. Mostly it is a report of what he has observed through his spiritual observation and what was revealed to him by Vidar, with brief references to Steiner's spiritual scientific research, but not how others can cultivate the same faculties within themselves.

Thanks for your comments. The book by Kurten is on my list, but I have so much left to read, it's really hard to choose what to read first!

I created a diagram inspired by Kurten's work which was intended to help root the concepts in my feeling, as you mentioned, but perhaps it will be helpful for you as well as a reference tool when you eventually get around to the book or when working through Steiner's lectures which often deal with these fourfold associations. I ended up adding a lot more detail than I originally planned so hopefully it isn't too cluttered, but there is also a lot more that could be added in terms of the fourfold relations. The color associations should help us discern some key relations even if we aren't able to clearly conceptualize them yet - we can hold it as a loose holistic image at first. The curved lines show the nesting structure of the spiritual and physical kingdom, for ex. the human kingdom embeds not only the thought forces of its own kingdom but all the forces of the lower ones as well. Or similarly, the solid element functions according to physical laws, while the liquid element functions according to both physical and etheric laws, the gas element according to physical, etheric, and astral laws, and so forth. We should also always remember that these domains are completely interwoven and interpenetrating, for example, we never actually find the solid, liquid, or gas elements in the absence of the warmth element. It is our task in the 4th convolution to conceptually and experientially differentiate them in our consciousness so we can make them objective and understand them at ever-deeper levels in the process of harmonizing their activities. All of this is a snapshot of the relations from our current Earthly perspective within the 4th convolution.

Ashvin,

Thank you! That's all of great help, and I'm glad to hear that you consider the works of Steiner and their applied aspects fully current, including from your direct spiritual experience. It's encouraging for the present of spiritual science that you have attained these perceptions! Not sure why you don’t want to use the word clairvoyance though. As I understand it, what you describe is precisely clairvoyance, and not of the simplest kind, since those are, I believe, Asuric beings.

Federica,

There are a couple of things to mention here. Perceiving is not necessarily the same thing as understanding, as we know in the case of the script of languages we haven't learned yet. Although I perceive these elementals in the airy element, my conception of them right now is something akin to virtual particles and anti-particles that come into manifestation and cancel each other out so to speak, rather than experientially understanding them as living beings with activity that influences my own stream of becoming. Things aren't really understood until we reach the latter stage of insight. That is when we gain a real intuitive orientation to their meaning in our existence as we would with a text when we have started learning the new language in which it is written. I would say clairvoyance is only possible when we have crossed the threshold into the perspective of the beings themselves. Steiner often mentions how even the images received through imaginative cognition can only be experientially understood in light of inspiration. Right now, I only experience enough to know with confidence that it corresponds with what Steiner writes below.

We were able to describe yesterday, that in spring the plants are, so to speak, drawn out of the earth by certain beings which are subject to perpetual metamorphosis, and we can likewise say that when, for instance, the plants have finished this development, and the time has come for them to fade, other beings then work upon them; beings of whom we cannot even say that they too are continually changing their forms, for, strictly speaking, they have no form of their own at all. They appear flashing up like lightning, like little meteors; now flashing up, now disappearing; they really have no definite form, but flit over our earth, flashing and vanishing like little meteors or will-o'-the-wisps.

These beings are primarily connected with the ripening of everything in the kingdoms of nature; the ripening process comes about because these forces or beings exist. They are only visible to occult vision when it concentrates on the air itself, indeed, on the purest air possible. We have described the second sort of nature-beings by saying that to perceive them we must allow falling water, or water condensed into cloud-formation or something of a like character to work upon us. Now air as free from moisture as possible, played upon by the light and warmth of the sun, must work upon the soul, if we are to visualize in our imagination these meteor-like, flashing, and disappearing beings, which live in air free from moisture, and eagerly drink in the light which permeates the air and which causes them to flash and shine. These beings then sink down into the plant-world, or the animal world, and bring about their ripening and maturity. In the very way we approach these beings we see that they stand in a certain relation to what occultism has always called the elements.

The elemental beings are like helpers of the higher hierarchies, preserving their past ideation (their 'memories') and the influences of that ideation within the Earthly context. These past ideations unfold in an automatic way. Unlike humans and the higher hierarchies themselves who are working in the present, they don't bring anything new into existence, only carry out past habits of ideation and soul activity. The nature elements are tasked with things like the seasonal growth processes and the migrational patterns of activity in the animal kingdom. They serve or work alongside the group-egos of the lower kingdoms. There are also elementals connected with our soul nature. Our lower personality is basically woven from the various elementals created through our subconscious impulses and passions over the course of incarnations, and these can be associated with Lucifer or Ahriman. I think the Asuric elementals would be associated more with immoral thoughts-deeds carried out by our I-consciousness. I am not entirely sure about that.

The elemental beings of water, air, and warmth (fire) are mostly servants of the 2nd hierarchy, as I understand it, although the 3rd hierarchy incarnates into these elementals to carry out their tasks. So to really gain experiential insight into these beings, we need to experience the perspective of the corresponding hierarchical beings to which they belong. In the case of air, for ex., my understanding is that those would be the Spirits of Movement. At the very least, we would need to experience the perspective of the archangels who incarnate their lowest member into those air elementals to accomplish their tasks in the World (for ex. guiding folks/nations). Right now, in contrast, I only experience the elementals insofar as they manifest on this side of the threshold i.e. from my own current cognitive perspective mediated by the physical-etheric senses. I can perhaps conceptually probe their deeper significance with that added experience, but that's well short of any genuine spiritual sight which requires us to be outside the physical-etheric complex. 

For my part I have tried once the 12 min concentration on a candle flame, as I was watching the second Thoresen link above, 'together' with the other participants. What I have perceived is sensory perceptions, and also a feeling of discomfort-apprehension. It is that general feeling I wanted to explore, as I believe I’m not anywhere near the level of exercised concentration that would be necessary to pass through sensory perceptions in such remarkable way, and I am much more comfortable with some of Steiner’s less 'spectacular' exercises. Anyway, Thoresen recommends repeating the exercise every day, once or twice a day for two months, letting oneself fade into the flame (or snow, or plant green-ness, or sky, or any other natural object). He also suggests that the exercise is easier if the object of concentration is undergoing a change of state, like a burning candle, or melting snow.

Your graph is really appreciated, thanks! I have now ordered the Kürten book, so it doesn’t go out of print before I get it, and I can put the graph in the book when it arrives. Indeed, I don't see what the colors stand for, though my intellect tells me it has to be strictly related with the act of folding, that brings median features, as well as end features, in close connection with each other. Apart from Devachan, the associations are clear, but I'm afraid a proper understanding of the elemental realms would require that I progress further in my understanding of the fourfold convolutions. I am working on that, from Cleric’s post to the Steiner archive, to the inner work.

Thanks for sharing the candle flame exercise. Somehow I always forget about using candles as imminent access to the fire element in a concentrated form. I will check out the link and try the exercise.

Yes, the colors help make the associations that don't necessarily line up on the flowchart, such as the 3rd elementary kingdom with the soul forces, the 2nd with the life forces, and the 1st with the physical forces. They also point to which hierarchies are managing the various physical elements and ethers at this time, and what forces are illuminated in their inner nature by the stages of cognition. Devachan is also referred to as 'spirit land' or 'spirit region' in Steiner's lectures, higher or lower. We can think of the upper region as one of pure thought-seed forces, i.e. pure intents without any form, while the lower region is one of archetypal forms that then clothe themselves in astral, etheric, and mineral substance when they incarnate. Each lower region 'drags along' the forces/substance of the region above it, so the finished form embeds the entire force-substance structure. Of course, the archetypal forms are not spatial in any sense that we understand it, so we are really speaking of the Time-spectrum here. So there is no 1:1 correspondence between the form of a tree for ex. and its archetype in the 2nd elementary kingdom.

[Federica]

Federica,

There are a couple of things to mention here. Perceiving is not necessarily the same thing as understanding, as we know in the case of the script of languages we haven't learned yet. Although I perceive these elementals in the airy element, my conception of them right now is something akin to virtual particles and anti-particles that come into manifestation and cancel each other out so to speak, rather than experientially understanding them as living beings with activity that influences my own stream of becoming. Things aren't really understood until we reach the latter stage of insight. That is when we gain a real intuitive orientation to their meaning in our existence as we would with a text when we have started learning the new language in which it is written. I would say clairvoyance is only possible when we have crossed the threshold into the perspective of the beings themselves. Steiner often mentions how even the images received through imaginative cognition can only be experientially understood in light of inspiration. Right now, I only experience enough to know with confidence that it corresponds with what Steiner writes below.

We were able to describe yesterday, that in spring the plants are, so to speak, drawn out of the earth by certain beings which are subject to perpetual metamorphosis, and we can likewise say that when, for instance, the plants have finished this development, and the time has come for them to fade, other beings then work upon them; beings of whom we cannot even say that they too are continually changing their forms, for, strictly speaking, they have no form of their own at all. They appear flashing up like lightning, like little meteors; now flashing up, now disappearing; they really have no definite form, but flit over our earth, flashing and vanishing like little meteors or will-o'-the-wisps.

These beings are primarily connected with the ripening of everything in the kingdoms of nature; the ripening process comes about because these forces or beings exist. They are only visible to occult vision when it concentrates on the air itself, indeed, on the purest air possible. We have described the second sort of nature-beings by saying that to perceive them we must allow falling water, or water condensed into cloud-formation or something of a like character to work upon us. Now air as free from moisture as possible, played upon by the light and warmth of the sun, must work upon the soul, if we are to visualize in our imagination these meteor-like, flashing, and disappearing beings, which live in air free from moisture, and eagerly drink in the light which permeates the air and which causes them to flash and shine. These beings then sink down into the plant-world, or the animal world, and bring about their ripening and maturity. In the very way we approach these beings we see that they stand in a certain relation to what occultism has always called the elements.

The elemental beings are like helpers of the higher hierarchies, preserving their past ideation (their 'memories') and the influences of that ideation within the Earthly context. These past ideations unfold in an automatic way. Unlike humans and the higher hierarchies themselves who are working in the present, they don't bring anything new into existence, only carry out past habits of ideation and soul activity. The nature elements are tasked with things like the seasonal growth processes and the migrational patterns of activity in the animal kingdom. They serve or work alongside the group-egos of the lower kingdoms. There are also elementals connected with our soul nature. Our lower personality is basically woven from the various elementals created through our subconscious impulses and passions over the course of incarnations, and these can be associated with Lucifer or Ahriman. I think the Asuric elementals would be associated more with immoral thoughts-deeds carried out by our I-consciousness. I am not entirely sure about that.

The elemental beings of water, air, and warmth (fire) are mostly servants of the 2nd hierarchy, as I understand it, although the 3rd hierarchy incarnates into these elementals to carry out their tasks. So to really gain experiential insight into these beings, we need to experience the perspective of the corresponding hierarchical beings to which they belong. In the case of air, for ex., my understanding is that those would be the Spirits of Movement. At the very least, we would need to experience the perspective of the archangels who incarnate their lowest member into those air elementals to accomplish their tasks in the World (for ex. guiding folks/nations). Right now, in contrast, I only experience the elementals insofar as they manifest on this side of the threshold i.e. from my own current cognitive perspective mediated by the physical-etheric senses. I can perhaps conceptually probe their deeper significance with that added experience, but that's well short of any genuine spiritual sight which requires us to be outside the physical-etheric complex. .

Noting all that, Ashvin, thanks. I was only supposing, based on how I understand what Thoresen says about the various categories of elementals, and how they move, appear, relate, without having any clear overall idea of these beings. So, a bit nonsensical, I have to admit. I see that the quote from Steiner is an exact match.

Yes, the colors help make the associations that don't necessarily line up on the flowchart, such as the 3rd elementary kingdom with the soul forces, the 2nd with the life forces, and the 1st with the physical forces. They also point to which hierarchies are managing the various physical elements and ethers at this time, and what forces are illuminated in their inner nature by the stages of cognition. Devachan is also referred to as 'spirit land' or 'spirit region' in Steiner's lectures, higher or lower. We can think of the upper region as one of pure thought-seed forces, i.e. pure intents without any form, while the lower region is one of archetypal forms that then clothe themselves in astral, etheric, and mineral substance when they incarnate. Each lower region 'drags along' the forces/substance of the region above it, so the finished form embeds the entire force-substance structure. Of course, the archetypal forms are not spatial in any sense that we understand it, so we are really speaking of the Time-spectrum here. So there is no 1:1 correspondence between the form of a tree for ex. and its archetype in the 2nd elementary kingdom.

I see.... well, I don't, in concrete sense, but it starts with taking notes
(I do see that archetypes are not spatial)