The Nature of the sensory world or do we really *know* the ultimate ground of reality?

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Stranger
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Re: Meditation exercise on "separate me"

Post by Stranger »

Federica wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 10:23 pm There is only one way. By the inner orange marks. The how comes from within, not by external proof. And one can only reach the first mark by inhabiting a certain inner disposition. There is no way to first receive a formal guarantee that there will be marks, and only later start the path. Therefore, a minimum level of unconditioned inner disposition of trust is necessary. I'm repeating myself, I tried to express this a couple of posts above in more details. As Martinus puts it:
Martinus wrote:My words are thus directed towards those beings who long for a higher and purer form of existence and whose entire attitude of consciousness is concerned with transforming themselves so as to be fit for being pervaded by the very highest energy of consciousness or "the holy spirit"; to beings who have a real hunger and thirst for knowing "what they should do in order to be blessed". My words are for those beings who want to train themselves to be the highest instruments for the unfolding of wisdom and love, and who wish to take part in making "the kingdom of God" or the real human kingdom a fact on Earth.
That is correct but does not answer my question how we can distinguish a true spiritual teacher or clairvoyant from a pseudo-one. We cannot trust just anyone who claims to be the spiritual scientist and clairvoyant.
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Federica
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Re: Meditation exercise on "separate me"

Post by Federica »

Stranger wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 10:42 pm
Federica wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 10:23 pm There is only one way. By the inner orange marks. The how comes from within, not by external proof. And one can only reach the first mark by inhabiting a certain inner disposition. There is no way to first receive a formal guarantee that there will be marks, and only later start the path. Therefore, a minimum level of unconditioned inner disposition of trust is necessary. I'm repeating myself, I tried to express this a couple of posts above in more details. As Martinus puts it:
Martinus wrote:My words are thus directed towards those beings who long for a higher and purer form of existence and whose entire attitude of consciousness is concerned with transforming themselves so as to be fit for being pervaded by the very highest energy of consciousness or "the holy spirit"; to beings who have a real hunger and thirst for knowing "what they should do in order to be blessed". My words are for those beings who want to train themselves to be the highest instruments for the unfolding of wisdom and love, and who wish to take part in making "the kingdom of God" or the real human kingdom a fact on Earth.
That is correct. In other words, as I said, by seeing if their claims fit to the "harmony of facts" of our outer and inner experience.
Rather: by seeing if our freely engaged inner transformation sends us echoes that we are attuning ourselves to the harmony of facts, as described by their "claims" that we indeed don't see as claims, but that we trust in the first place, by inclination, and by inner disposition, as in Martinus' words.
This is the goal towards which the sixth age of humanity will strive: the popularization of occult truth on a wide scale. That's the mission of this age and the society that unites spiritually has the task of bringing this occult truth to life everywhere and applying it directly. That's exactly what our age is missing.
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AshvinP
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Re: Meditation exercise on "separate me"

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Stranger wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 9:45 pm
AshvinP wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 8:58 pm BTW, it is not lost on me how you reversed from claiming Steiner is unreasonable and unscientific for providing too many weird occultic details, to claiming he is for not providing enough prophetic utterances about the course of purely physical research :D
That's because these two are directly related. A true clairvoyant would be able to provide prophetic utterances about the course of purely physical research instead of providing unreasonable and unscientific weird occultic details.

I will quote your own statement here:

Stranger wrote:Within the dualistic realm there is a polarity of dualistically understood "good" and "evil", but as a whole the world of duality and its hierarchy are not "evil". So far it has not been very successful, we can see a lot of scientific and technological progress in humanity, but the spiritual state did not develop too far from primitive dualistic egotism, and as a consequence, the majority of humanity still live in consumerism, conflicting beliefs and exoteric religions, individual and group conflicts, political wars etc. This is not surprising, because the dualistic state is intrinsically egoic, unless it is stringently restricted by laws and controlled in a nested-hierarchical manner.

Why do you imagine this state persists? It is not because of some abstract dualistic hierarchy which is separate from our soul-life, or some refusal of people to intoxicate themselves with mystical experiences of 'oneness', but because too many people devote their mental energy to observing and rearranging the elemental spectrum through mere physical science, imagining that this gives them genuine power, knowledge, and wisdom. People imagine that there can be a 'science' which is not at the same time life-giving and ethical, i.e. spiritual. But reality doesn't work that way, because it is the Spirit which gives life and which structures the manifest world through the nested spheres of pralaya - from planetary incarnations down to our own, i.e. death-rebirth, sleep, and every act of thinking-perception. That is where the real archetypal explanations for the forms of culture and nature reside - everything from historical events in human culture to human illnesses and natural disasters, and all in between. The subtle Time-spheres impress their ideal forces down into the denser layers, like a seal into wax. Steiner devoted his mental energy to unveiling these connections of profound importance for our holistic evolution. He was tasked with preparing humanity to begin consciously inflowing the Christ impulse towards moral imagination and spiritual freedom, to begin solving the mystery of evil. 

The Divine Cosmos does not Will that modern humans merely observe and contemplate and codify its past intents which have manifested in the physical spectrum, in models, theories and equations, but to actively (freely) participate in manifesting their current intents, which constitute our future physical spectrum. In other words, the exact opposite of what you felt Steiner or a 'true clairvoyant' would have done with their spiritual capacity. The physical scientists cannot utter prophecies because they are only studying the past - that is baked into the very nature of their approach as a ceiling. The elemental spectrum is the manifestation of already accomplished intents. Our spiritual sages and guides don't need to devote more of their time to doing that too, in fact we need the exact opposite, which is what you are labeling 'weird occultic details'. These are the living details which will actually manifest a peaceful, harmonious, inhabitable future for humanity, IF more people decide to pay attention to them rather than dogmatically shut their minds and hearts to them. If even a relatively small number of people began devoting the same mental energy to these inner spheres of potential that they do to the outer actualized spectrum, all the things you mention above would take a dramatic turn for the better.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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AshvinP
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Re: Meditation exercise on "separate me"

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Stranger wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 9:45 pm In the Buddhist tradition it is believed that the beings that achieved the full buddhahood do not incarnate into the races or realms in the same way as the beings in samsara incarnate. They exist in a different way as individuated expressions of Trikaya (dharmakaya, sambhogakaya, nirmanakaya ) and from there manifest/emanate their nirmanakaya bodies into the samsaric realms without really incarnating there and leaving the dharmakaya and sambhogakaya. So, it is in principle possible that the Buddha Shakyamuni has an emanated body on Mars, but no such accounts are known in the Buddhist tradition. Here is a quote from Padmasambhava who is considered "the second Buddha" in the Buddhist tradition.
Padmasambhava wrote:Out of this space-like continuity that is dharmakaya the cloud-like sambhogakaya appear adorned with major and minor marks within the experience of bodhisattvas on the ten levels. Like rain, the nirmanakaya benefit whoever needs to be inspired in whichever way is necessary by means of boundless emanations. Within the continuity of empty sky they take shape like rain clouds by sharing down theirs rain, they nurture the greenery and forests. Likewise, from the inconceivable dharmakaya, the domain realized by the buddhas, appears sambhogakaya, the domain of the bodhisattvas of the greater vehicle, and from there appear the nirmanakayas in the domain of all fortunate beings.

Alright, so what you are calling 'contradictory account' is simply an absence of further detailed knowledge within your tradition. That's all I needed to know. We can leave it at that.
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Re: Meditation exercise on "separate me"

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Federica wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 10:49 pm Rather: by seeing if our freely engaged inner transformation sends us echoes that we are attuning ourselves to the harmony of facts, as described by their "claims" that we indeed don't see as claims, but that we trust in the first place, by inclination, and by inner disposition, as in Martinus' words.
Fully agree with the inner work and transformation. But regarding the "trust in the first place", what happens if we put our trust in someone who turns out to be a false spiritual teacher or a pseudo-spiritual-scientist? We know too many examples of false teachers and sect leaders in whom people put their trust only to later have detrimental consequences on their psychological and spiritual health. So, before we put some trust onto any spiritual authority, we need to apply our spiritual discernment, as much as we have developed and to the best of our ability, to see if what these people claim do align with the harmony of facts of our inner and outer experience. And that applies to both incarnate and discarnate beings (because there are many false teachers in the discarnate realms just like there are in the incarnate ones, or as the Hermetics say, "As above so below").
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Stranger
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Re: Meditation exercise on "separate me"

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AshvinP wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 10:54 pm The Divine Cosmos does not Will that modern humans merely observe and contemplate and codify its past intents which have manifested in the physical spectrum, in models, theories and equations, but to actively (freely) participate in manifesting their current intents, which constitute our future physical spectrum. In other words, the exact opposite of what you felt Steiner or a 'true clairvoyant' would have done with their spiritual capacity. The physical scientists cannot utter prophecies because they are only studying the past - that is baked into the very nature of their approach as a ceiling. The elemental spectrum is the manifestation of already accomplished intents. Our spiritual sages and guides don't need to devote more of their time to doing that too, in fact we need the exact opposite, which is what you are labeling 'weird occultic details'. These are the living details which will actually manifest a peaceful, harmonious, inhabitable future for humanity, IF more people decide to pay attention to them rather than dogmatically shut their minds and hearts to them. If even a relatively small number of people began devoting the same mental energy to these inner spheres of potential that they do to the outer actualized spectrum, all the things you mention above would take a dramatic turn for the better.
Well yes, and that is what the Buddha also said in his Simsapa Sutta:
Buddha wrote:"What do you think, monks: Which are more numerous, the few simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the simsapa forest?"
"The leaves in the hand of the Blessed One are few in number, lord. Those overhead in the simsapa forest are more numerous."
"In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have taught]. And why haven't I taught them? Because they are not connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy life
However, Stener spend a great amount of time and efforts studying human biology and medicine (which is the manifestation of already accomplished events according to you), for example, in his book "Spiritual Science and Medicine", so apparently he did see a value in studying these topics, yet we do not see any signs of deeper knowledge of biology or medicine from his clairvoyant abilities compared to what was already available from secular science of his time.
Stener wrote:"The cardiovascular system is intimately connected with the nervous system, the endocrine system, and the other organs and systems of the body. It is through these connections that the human being is able to maintain its balance and harmony with the world."
Anyway, I'm not claiming that Steiner is a false teacher or pseudo-scientist. He definitely had some valuable insights and occultic spiritual experiences. But that does not mean he was omniscient and knew all the truths of the Cosmos, which also means that he could be mistaking in some of his statements or claims, and that his knowledge was still limited in many ways. So, spiritual discretion is always advised.
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Re: Meditation exercise on "separate me"

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Stranger wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 1:12 am However, Stener spend a great amount of time and efforts studying human biology and medicine (which is the manifestation of already accomplished events according to you), for example, in his book "Spiritual Science and Medicine", so apparently he did see a value in studying these topics, yet we do not see any signs of deeper knowledge of biology or medicine from his clairvoyant abilities compared to what was already available from secular science of his time.

Here is where we need to discern the polar structure of reality and take it seriously, not only as abstract theory. The problem is not with studying human biology - in fact, the entire spiritual Cosmos is embedded in the human bio-physical organism and we can gain infinite wisdom through contemplation of its living structures. Likewise all of human history is embedded in outer events of the present which can be observed. The problem is when it is studied by only normal cognition for its physical descriptive value, which is nothing more than correlating perceptions on the horizontal plane. Then it becomes idolatry of the already accomplished intents. Why? Because those intents already served their purpose of perfecting our analytical thinking capacity. Now we need to use that capacity to invite fresh impulses of renewal into the manifest spectrum, rather than cling to the old way of analyzing when it serves no purpose for further inner perfection. That is where secular science and exoteric culture in general goes wrong.

Only when higher cognition is brought to bear on the outer appearances of body-soul-spirit do they reveal themselves more and more as living analogs for the current intents of the Divine Cosmos. That is what Schrodinger equations are - nothing more than flattened analogical images of spiritual activity which condenses through spheres of potential into the planes of manifestation. If we want to penetrate into the living essence of these images, in all their concreteness, we must develop higher cognition - imagination, inspiration, intuition - which are akin to spiritual sight, hearing, and touch. There are no two ways about it. And because we are maintaining our discerning judgment while working into the forces which animate our current thinking, there is no risk of confusing fantasy for reality. That only happens when we disconnect from the thinking forces - or obscure them - in visionary states.
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Federica
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Re: Meditation exercise on "separate me"

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Stranger wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 12:45 am
Federica wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 10:49 pm Rather: by seeing if our freely engaged inner transformation sends us echoes that we are attuning ourselves to the harmony of facts, as described by their "claims" that we indeed don't see as claims, but that we trust in the first place, by inclination, and by inner disposition, as in Martinus' words.
Fully agree with the inner work and transformation. But regarding the "trust in the first place", what happens if we put our trust in someone who turns out to be a false spiritual teacher or a pseudo-spiritual-scientist? We know too many examples of false teachers and sect leaders in whom people put their trust only to later have detrimental consequences on their psychological and spiritual health. So, before we put some trust onto any spiritual authority, we need to apply our spiritual discernment, as much as we have developed and to the best of our ability, to see if what these people claim do align with the harmony of facts of our inner and outer experience. And that applies to both incarnate and discarnate beings (because there are many false teachers in the discarnate realms just like there are in the incarnate ones, or as the Hermetics say, "As above so below").

Eugene, may I give you a concrete suggestion - if you take for example Martinus' symbol n. 7, and first carefully go through its explanation, with a soft and kind eye-mind, then maybe even meditate with the symbol at the center of awareness, letting the truth captured by the symbol speak to you, without letting the controlling mind’s eye strictly and tightly supervise the experience, you will surely come to the orange mark that the eternal law captured by the symbol is not only an in-principle, ideal reality appearing to you as supervised, pondered truth. Rather, you would further see that the reality of the symbol is embedded in, and expressed by, your own flesh here and now. Your mind-flesh, your body-flesh. You would come to see and feel the truth of the reality reported by the symbol in every atom of your flesh also, and in every bit of experience, sensorial and spiritual alike, that awareness can conceive, as well. But the question is, do you want to let that eternal symbol become applied inner knowledge within you? Do you want to welcome the knowledge in yourself and “be the highest instrument for the unfolding of wisdom and love”, as Martinus says (in the rose quote)? Are you ready to let the truth of the symbol bleed onto you?


If you were to engage in this meditation, that initial piece of knowledge would become one with your point of awareness. What would happen then is an applied instance of transformation. Not in-principle transformation, but transformation through training, exactly as in the rose quote above. That would be your first spiritual science transformational training session, so to say. Of course, you already know a lot about spiritual science, but only under the cognitive mode “in-principle supervision-apprehension”. Now, if you were to change gears, and put your being in the first line, available for transformation of self, not in principle, but willed, the story would take a turn, and the “how” that you have been wondering about would become clear. Willed transformation does not mean “directed” or “supervised”. What is willed is the disposition of openness and acceptance that something we are not yet able to imagine/see/consider could become a conscious part of us, a tiny bit at a time (which is why it’s a training). That highest instance that we can open to, if we feel such drive, would perfect our current stage of understanding and our current ability to love through understanding. So, provided that we first agree within ourselves with this opening (it’s the trustful disposition I was speaking of), we will surely undergo some tiny but significant transformative experience, that we will not be able to supervise. That’s very important. The only, and crucial thing we can, and have to, supervise is our openness to the experience. It’s the wish, the firm wish (the wish has to be firm, because there are counter forces our wish has to pierce through in order to affirm itself, as we all know, as you are knowing right now). The firm wish leads us to the disciplined (willed) training session. From that point on, we have to trust the eternal law of the symbol, knowing that our current notion of control and outlook will die and be born again. We have to agree with such a transformation, we have to welcome it, otherwise nothing will advance, and we remain in our status quo, with our questions, and strong hold on our present-day partially obstructed view, including all the question marks on the for-us-invisible causes of those obstructions.


I think this kind of self assessment would be very useful for you to probe if you really feel a call and an opening toward Martinus’ spiritual science, or not. Because the integration of a symbol like this one, I believe, could encounter some resistance within you, and that’s why I think it would be a good test. I believe you have well apprehended the symbol, but you have not yet been open to applied integration of its truth. For instance, when yesterday I gave the example of the lung-being with reference to Martinus, you didn’t say anything about what sense it makes to you - the idea of a lung-being with an “I”, as organ-being embedded within our own being. You didn’t say anything, and reasonably so, because the question I was asking was another one. Still, I believe that in yourself you were in a position of uncertainty, or ambiguity, whether to adopt Martinus’ vision in the first place, or rather to lean towards the current standard scientific view that a lung is a lung, not a “being with an “I” made of myriads of other I-beings in its turn. In case you did have this question arising, this is only normal when spiritual science is apprehended as in-principle knowledge. But shifting from in-principle to applied knowledge requires precisely that trust, that you have expressed doubts about.


This reserve you have expressed is the only reason why you are currently caught in the disconnect I was speaking of yesterday. If you were to open yourself to Martinus’ spiritual science in meditation, in the way I have tried to describe, the quality of your experience would start to change, and you would start receiving the clarity he has endeavored to put in words for people like us to benefit from it, as guidance. I think it’s good that you have a preference for initiating this work with the help of Martinus, rather than Steiner or others. And by the way, I am thankful that you have brought attention to this additional perspective on the eternal truth of reality. But there is only one Truth, and the reports expressed by various spiritual scientists can only differ by the style of reporting, and the depth of reporting. However the object of reporting is one and the same. For this reason, if you were to consider willingly opening yourself to becoming the expression, or instrument, of higher knowledge through the direct (and unsupervisable) transformation proposed by Martinus, you would certainly come to new stages of understanding. And you would also soon realize, as cognitive result of ongoing inner transformation, that the symbol n. 7 pictures the same absolute Truth described by Steiner as nested hierarchies, described and pictured by Cleric as the Mandelbrot set, and as the Cantor fractal, and expressed by Ashvin in his recent post on the meaning of nested hierarchies.


To come back to your initial point about trust - the impulse to try to first “discern by oneself”, and reserve the trust for later - I hope I have illustrated how such impulse - although present in all of us and deeply understandable - is one and the same as an unreadiness, and unwillingness, to be transformed by higher Truth and intelligence. We give in to the impulse to maintain full control and remain equally in charge all throughout the projected transformation, that we believe we can watch happen, as we would watch the landscape scroll past from a train window. But it’s impossible to undergo transformation in this way. That would only be an accruing of in-principle information about spiritual science. It’s in the scheme of things that for many, the resistance materialized in such an impulse feels stronger than the call to transformative higher knowledge through spiritual science. It simply means that one is setting oneself up for a different, more convoluted trajectory along the path of the continuous formation/dissolution of karma. I don’t know how these conflicting calls to action will turn out for you, which impulse will be stronger. It’s something you have to experience and will for yourself. Of course we all wish for one thing, but only you have the means to either go with the overwhelming flow of reality as it passes through your current inner riverbed, or start to slowly reshape that riverbed through conscious opening effort and training, so that the flow can start leading you along the currents of cosmic intelligence that you don’t yet know, but trust to pervade you with ”the very highest energy of consciousness or the holy spirit”.
This is the goal towards which the sixth age of humanity will strive: the popularization of occult truth on a wide scale. That's the mission of this age and the society that unites spiritually has the task of bringing this occult truth to life everywhere and applying it directly. That's exactly what our age is missing.
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Re: Meditation exercise on "separate me"

Post by AshvinP »

Federica wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 10:35 am
Stranger wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 12:45 am
Federica wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 10:49 pm Rather: by seeing if our freely engaged inner transformation sends us echoes that we are attuning ourselves to the harmony of facts, as described by their "claims" that we indeed don't see as claims, but that we trust in the first place, by inclination, and by inner disposition, as in Martinus' words.
Fully agree with the inner work and transformation. But regarding the "trust in the first place", what happens if we put our trust in someone who turns out to be a false spiritual teacher or a pseudo-spiritual-scientist? We know too many examples of false teachers and sect leaders in whom people put their trust only to later have detrimental consequences on their psychological and spiritual health. So, before we put some trust onto any spiritual authority, we need to apply our spiritual discernment, as much as we have developed and to the best of our ability, to see if what these people claim do align with the harmony of facts of our inner and outer experience. And that applies to both incarnate and discarnate beings (because there are many false teachers in the discarnate realms just like there are in the incarnate ones, or as the Hermetics say, "As above so below").

Eugene, may I give you a concrete suggestion - if you take for example Martinus' symbol n. 7, and first carefully go through its explanation, with a soft and kind eye-mind, then maybe even meditate with the symbol at the center of awareness, letting the truth captured by the symbol speak to you, without letting the controlling mind’s eye strictly and tightly supervise the experience, you will surely come to the orange mark that the eternal law captured by the symbol is not only an in-principle, ideal reality appearing to you as supervised, pondered truth.
...
For instance, when yesterday I gave the example of the lung-being with reference to Martinus, you didn’t say anything about what sense it makes to you - the idea of a lung-being with an “I”, as organ-being embedded within our own being. You didn’t say anything, and reasonably so, because the question I was asking was another one. Still, I believe that in yourself you were in a position of uncertainty, or ambiguity, whether to adopt Martinus’ vision in the first place, or rather to lean towards the current standard scientific view that a lung is a lung, not a “being with an “I” made of myriads of other I-beings in its turn.

Federica,

Thanks for the great post on the inner disposition towards exploring unfamiliar spiritual terrain. Also for pointing to Martinus' symbols, which I had not noticed before - they are very interesting to contemplate/meditate with the 'soft eyes'.

I also wanted to add one note on the above, which is hopefully helpful. Humans are the only be-ings with an 'I' on the physical plane. When we see another human, it is their 'I' which mostly comes to outer expression through expressions, gestures, speech, actions. For animals it is mostly the soul-astral life of impulses, desires, passions, etc. which comes to outer expression. For plants it is the etheric life forces which come to expression (also external astral forces in the blossom/fruit). And for minerals it is dense physical body which comes to outer expression. The animals, plants, and minerals also have group-souls or 'I'-centers on the astral and higher planes.

Yet there are even lower sub-sensible beings in nature's economy who are known as 'elementals'. We could say they have negative members of their organization, in the sense that their dense bodies are in retrograde stages of evolution which are lower than the minerals. Those bodies are so coarse that we can no longer perceive them with our physical consciousness (but we can easily discern the effects of their influences in nature, which generally relate to rhythmic processes). These are the beings we are generally referring to in terms of those which comrpise the natural functions of our organs and what not. These beings come into manifestation through our activity and can also be released from their 'imprisonment' through our moral spiritual activity, which has direct relevance to our health. It is true that all beings on the physical plane are related to an 'I' on some plane or another, but we shouldn't imagine that we are in direct control of these supra-sensory 'I'-centers.

This also relates to the course of modern secular science - it only studies the functioning of these elemental beings (and minerals) and rearranges them through technology. All the 'particles' it discovers are nothing other than Maya thought-projections into the elemental spectrum. It has lost any sense of the archetypal influences, the higher 'I'-centers, which provide life and consciousness to beings of the physical plane, including us, and which are not under our direct control and manipulation. Naturally, the exclusive pursuit of this mere sensory science is related to egoistic desires to remain in control of everything we observe and interact with, or as you say, to 'supervise' it all. And nowhere do we actually find isolated elemental/mineral processes in reality which are not woven into an ecosystem of life-soul-spirit processes as well. So that rigid science can only understand the functioning of systems which are isolated in abstract thought, but are never isolated in living reality.

It is like a person who encounters heiroglyphs and is only interested in studying how the lines, curves, and squiggles fit together with each other in space, with no interest in their actual meaning as reflections of the soul-spirit life. This person can only reach practically helpful conclusions about what is being observed by groping around in the dark and stumbling upon them through luck (i.e. divine guidance). There is little to no actual skill or technique involved, let alone moral wisdom. And we see how these merely physical approaches to science are quickly degenerating, producing much more harm than good. Everyone intuits there is something very off about endless extraction of fossil fuels, modern 'sickcare' industry, genetic engineering, transhumanist pursuits, etc. and even space exploration - that there are unintended consequences we can hardly imagine. We intuit that pouring billions of dollars into space exploration will never result in anything of value unless there is a corresponding elevation in our cognition, so we actually begin to understand what we are exploring.
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Re: Meditation exercise on "separate me"

Post by Federica »

AshvinP wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 12:26 pm I also wanted to add one note on the above, which is hopefully helpful. Humans are the only be-ings with an 'I' on the physical plane. When we see another human, it is their 'I' which mostly comes to outer expression through expressions, gestures, speech, actions. For animals it is mostly the soul-astral life of impulses, desires, passions, etc. which comes to outer expression. For plants it is the etheric life forces which come to expression (also external astral forces in the blossom/fruit). And for minerals it is dense physical body which comes to outer expression. The animals, plants, and minerals also have group-souls or 'I'-centers on the astral and higher planes.

Yet there are even lower sub-sensible beings in nature's economy who are known as 'elementals'. We could say they have negative members of their organization, in the sense that their dense bodies are in retrograde stages of evolution which are lower than the minerals. Those bodies are so coarse that we can no longer perceive them with our physical consciousness (but we can easily discern the effects of their influences in nature, which generally relate to rhythmic processes). These are the beings we are generally referring to in terms of those which comrpise the natural functions of our organs and what not. These beings come into manifestation through our activity and can also be released from their 'imprisonment' through our moral spiritual activity, which has direct relevance to our health. It is true that all beings on the physical plane are related to an 'I' on some plane or another, but we shouldn't imagine that we are in direct control of these supra-sensory 'I'-centers.


Thank you Ashvin, your notes are definitely helpful. As I said yesterday to Eugene, I don't have direct knowledge of the hierarchies, therefore detailed illustrations are always welcome and helpful. Be assured, though, I was not imagining that "we are in direct control of these supra-sensory 'I'-centers." I think that an intuitive (in common sense) heartfelt knowledge is sufficient, in this case, to protect against such misunderstandings. As we said yesterday, a lung cannot decide to fly off of its seat, and the lawfulness it is submitted to, naturally applies to our direct relation to it, as being nested within our own being in organ-form. But again, the details you share are appreciated. For example, in my recent reading of the various types of elemental beings in Steiner, I had not realized their lower-than-mineral quality. Besides, I am glad you find Martinus' symbols inspiring! Although, for my own sensibility, nothing compares to Steiner, I am experiencing a true connection with Martinus' simpler wording and symbols, and I am grateful Eugene had this initiative to share this work with us.
This is the goal towards which the sixth age of humanity will strive: the popularization of occult truth on a wide scale. That's the mission of this age and the society that unites spiritually has the task of bringing this occult truth to life everywhere and applying it directly. That's exactly what our age is missing.
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