The Nature of the sensory world or do we really *know* the ultimate ground of reality?

[AshvinP]

Federica,

FYI - the 2nd link you provided is the same as the 1st one. Here is the link for the Chicago branch workshop that I found -

[Federica]

Federica,

FYI - the 2nd link you provided is the same as the 1st one. Here is the link for the Chicago branch workshop that I found -

Sorry, that was too rushed copy pasting! Thanks for correcting.

[Federica]

I'm currently reading a book called Symphonies of Creation by Oskar Kurten which goes into very great depth about the threefold elemental kingdoms and the various beings involved in them.

Ashvin,

I am reading page 1 of the book, that is the introduction by translator Paul King, and I am stunned by this statement:

"The 'elementary kingdoms' in the subtitle are not to be confused with the elemental realms of the beings behind the classical elements we know as Fire, Air, Water, and Earth."

Do you agree?

[AshvinP]

I'm currently reading a book called Symphonies of Creation by Oskar Kurten which goes into very great depth about the threefold elemental kingdoms and the various beings involved in them.

Ashvin,

I am reading page 1 of the book, that is the introduction by translator Paul King, and I am stunned by this statement:

"The 'elementary kingdoms' in the subtitle are not to be confused with the elemental realms of the beings behind the classical elements we know as Fire, Air, Water, and Earth."

Do you agree?

Federica,

That’s correct. It gets pretty complicated, as you will soon see. The elemental kingdoms are associated with the formative forces of the mineral, plant, animal, and human kingdoms. We could say for example that humans were the 1st elemental kingdom on old Saturn and now we are the 4th elemental kingdom (or mineral kingdom) on our current stage of Earth, while the minerals have become the 1st elemental kingdom (plants are 2nd, animals are 3rd). But we are speaking here of the supersensible intents (or thought-seed forces) and archetypes that go into structuring the forms of these kingdoms on the perceptual plane. Mineral forms are now structured by the intents-archetypes of the 1st kingdom alone while humans are structured by all four kingdoms, hence the four bodies on the perceptual plane (which doesn't mean they are all sense-perceptible, but they all come to expression in our perceptual form). The elemental beings of the devachanic, astral, and etheric realm, such as behind the classical elements, also assist in this task, but so do many other beings such as the group-egos of the first three kingdoms and our own ego in the 4th kingdom, as well as beings of the 3rd hierarchy. So they shouldn't be conflated together. Sometimes I wonder if there is a better terminology that we can use to make the distinctions clearer, but this book is all based on Steiner's terminology from various lectures.

[Federica]

I'm currently reading a book called Symphonies of Creation by Oskar Kurten which goes into very great depth about the threefold elemental kingdoms and the various beings involved in them.

Ashvin,

I am reading page 1 of the book, that is the introduction by translator Paul King, and I am stunned by this statement:

"The 'elementary kingdoms' in the subtitle are not to be confused with the elemental realms of the beings behind the classical elements we know as Fire, Air, Water, and Earth."

Do you agree?

Federica,

That’s correct. It gets pretty complicated, as you will soon see. The elemental kingdoms are associated with the formative forces of the mineral, plant, animal, and human kingdoms. We could say for example that humans were the 1st elemental kingdom on old Saturn and now we are the 4th elemental kingdom (or mineral kingdom) on our current stage of Earth, while the minerals have become the 1st elemental kingdom (plants are 2nd, animals are 3rd). But we are speaking here of the supersensible intents (or thought-seed forces) and archetypes that go into structuring the forms of these kingdoms on the perceptual plane. Mineral forms are now structured by the intents-archetypes of the 1st kingdom alone while humans are structured by all four kingdoms, hence the four bodies on the perceptual plane (which doesn't mean they are all sense-perceptible, but they all come to expression in our perceptual form). The elemental beings of the devachanic, astral, and etheric realm, such as behind the classical elements, also assist in this task, but so do many other beings such as the group-egos of the first three kingdoms and our own ego in the 4th kingdom, as well as beings of the 3rd hierarchy. So they shouldn't be conflated together. Sometimes I wonder if there is a better terminology that we can use to make the distinctions clearer, but this book is all based on Steiner's terminology from various lectures.

Thanks Ashvin. I believe you mean "elementary", not elemental. Anyway, I've read a few pages now. I appreciate how the book is written. It's very accurate and precise, I really like it! Thanks for pointing attention to it.

[Federica]

Ashvin,

I am reading page 1 of the book, that is the introduction by translator Paul King, and I am stunned by this statement:

"The 'elementary kingdoms' in the subtitle are not to be confused with the elemental realms of the beings behind the classical elements we know as Fire, Air, Water, and Earth."

Do you agree?

Federica,

That’s correct. It gets pretty complicated, as you will soon see. The elemental kingdoms are associated with the formative forces of the mineral, plant, animal, and human kingdoms. We could say for example that humans were the 1st elemental kingdom on old Saturn and now we are the 4th elemental kingdom (or mineral kingdom) on our current stage of Earth, while the minerals have become the 1st elemental kingdom (plants are 2nd, animals are 3rd). But we are speaking here of the supersensible intents (or thought-seed forces) and archetypes that go into structuring the forms of these kingdoms on the perceptual plane. Mineral forms are now structured by the intents-archetypes of the 1st kingdom alone while humans are structured by all four kingdoms, hence the four bodies on the perceptual plane (which doesn't mean they are all sense-perceptible, but they all come to expression in our perceptual form). The elemental beings of the devachanic, astral, and etheric realm, such as behind the classical elements, also assist in this task, but so do many other beings such as the group-egos of the first three kingdoms and our own ego in the 4th kingdom, as well as beings of the 3rd hierarchy. So they shouldn't be conflated together. Sometimes I wonder if there is a better terminology that we can use to make the distinctions clearer, but this book is all based on Steiner's terminology from various lectures.

Thanks Ashvin. I believe you mean "elementary", not elemental. Anyway, I've read a few pages now. I appreciate how the book is written. It's very accurate and precise, I really like it! Thanks for pointing attention to it.

Now, an enigma arises, that I'm sure will be addressed down the road in the book: Kürten says, we are now in the fourth of seven historical developmental stages (elementary kingdoms) of the Earth planetary condition - the so-called Mineral stage. But the Earth planetary condition is also divided in 7 epochs, the current post-Atlantean (about 15K years) being the fifth of seven, not the fourth. So I look forward to understanding how the 7 elementary kingdoms characterizing Earth existence (in the meaning of developmental stages) and the seven cultural epochs characterizing Earth existence harmonize with each other in a way that places us at the fourth stage on one timeline and at the fifth on the other one.

[AshvinP]

Federica,

That’s correct. It gets pretty complicated, as you will soon see. The elemental kingdoms are associated with the formative forces of the mineral, plant, animal, and human kingdoms. We could say for example that humans were the 1st elemental kingdom on old Saturn and now we are the 4th elemental kingdom (or mineral kingdom) on our current stage of Earth, while the minerals have become the 1st elemental kingdom (plants are 2nd, animals are 3rd). But we are speaking here of the supersensible intents (or thought-seed forces) and archetypes that go into structuring the forms of these kingdoms on the perceptual plane. Mineral forms are now structured by the intents-archetypes of the 1st kingdom alone while humans are structured by all four kingdoms, hence the four bodies on the perceptual plane (which doesn't mean they are all sense-perceptible, but they all come to expression in our perceptual form). The elemental beings of the devachanic, astral, and etheric realm, such as behind the classical elements, also assist in this task, but so do many other beings such as the group-egos of the first three kingdoms and our own ego in the 4th kingdom, as well as beings of the 3rd hierarchy. So they shouldn't be conflated together. Sometimes I wonder if there is a better terminology that we can use to make the distinctions clearer, but this book is all based on Steiner's terminology from various lectures.

Thanks Ashvin. I believe you mean "elementary", not elemental. Anyway, I've read a few pages now. I appreciate how the book is written. It's very accurate and precise, I really like it! Thanks for pointing attention to it.

Now, an enigma arises, that I'm sure will be addressed down the road in the book: Kürten says, we are now in the fourth of seven historical developmental stages (elementary kingdoms) of the Earth planetary condition - the so-called Mineral stage. But the Earth planetary condition is also divided in 7 epochs, the current post-Atlantean (about 15K years) being the fifth of seven, not the fourth. So I look forward to understanding how the 7 elementary kingdoms characterizing Earth existence (in the meaning of developmental stages) and the seven cultural epochs characterizing Earth existence harmonize with each other in a way that places us at the fourth stage on one timeline and at the fifth on the other one.

I don’t think you will find the answer to that enigma in the book, but rather in Steiner’s lectures which speak about the time-distortion introduced into human evolution through the Luciferic and Ahrimanic impulses. (I can’t seem to locate the lecture now). Under the normal Divine plan, the “I” would have fully incarnated on the physical plane in the middle of the 4th Atlantean epoch, but because of the distortion, it occurred during the middle of our own 5th epoch. So I think initially the spiritual descent was sped up too much during the Lemurian epoch by Lucifer but then as a karmic compensation the spiritual ascent was slowed down too much by Ahriman during the Atlantean epoch, and that’s why we end up with the point of balance off-kilter in the 5th epoch.

[Federica]

Thanks Ashvin. I believe you mean "elementary", not elemental. Anyway, I've read a few pages now. I appreciate how the book is written. It's very accurate and precise, I really like it! Thanks for pointing attention to it.

Now, an enigma arises, that I'm sure will be addressed down the road in the book: Kürten says, we are now in the fourth of seven historical developmental stages (elementary kingdoms) of the Earth planetary condition - the so-called Mineral stage. But the Earth planetary condition is also divided in 7 epochs, the current post-Atlantean (about 15K years) being the fifth of seven, not the fourth. So I look forward to understanding how the 7 elementary kingdoms characterizing Earth existence (in the meaning of developmental stages) and the seven cultural epochs characterizing Earth existence harmonize with each other in a way that places us at the fourth stage on one timeline and at the fifth on the other one.

I don’t think you will find the answer to that enigma in the book, but rather in Steiner’s lectures which speak about the time-distortion introduced into human evolution through the Luciferic and Ahrimanic impulses. (I can’t seem to locate the lecture now). Under the normal Divine plan, the “I” would have fully incarnated on the physical plane in the middle of the 4th Atlantean epoch, but because of the distortion, it occurred during the middle of our own 5th epoch. So I think initially the spiritual descent was sped up too much during the Lemurian epoch by Lucifer but then as a karmic compensation the spiritual ascent was slowed down too much by Ahriman during the Atlantean epoch, and that’s why we end up with the point of balance off-kilter in the 5th epoch.

Oh, ok Ashvin, thanks, I haven't heard about this before. I also see a table in the Appendix, the Overview of the stages of evolution. This seems to complicate things even more, with multiple layers of nested epochs. It will take a while to integrate!

[AshvinP]

Now, an enigma arises, that I'm sure will be addressed down the road in the book: Kürten says, we are now in the fourth of seven historical developmental stages (elementary kingdoms) of the Earth planetary condition - the so-called Mineral stage. But the Earth planetary condition is also divided in 7 epochs, the current post-Atlantean (about 15K years) being the fifth of seven, not the fourth. So I look forward to understanding how the 7 elementary kingdoms characterizing Earth existence (in the meaning of developmental stages) and the seven cultural epochs characterizing Earth existence harmonize with each other in a way that places us at the fourth stage on one timeline and at the fifth on the other one.

I don’t think you will find the answer to that enigma in the book, but rather in Steiner’s lectures which speak about the time-distortion introduced into human evolution through the Luciferic and Ahrimanic impulses. (I can’t seem to locate the lecture now). Under the normal Divine plan, the “I” would have fully incarnated on the physical plane in the middle of the 4th Atlantean epoch, but because of the distortion, it occurred during the middle of our own 5th epoch. So I think initially the spiritual descent was sped up too much during the Lemurian epoch by Lucifer but then as a karmic compensation the spiritual ascent was slowed down too much by Ahriman during the Atlantean epoch, and that’s why we end up with the point of balance off-kilter in the 5th epoch.

Oh, ok Ashvin, thanks, I haven't heard about this before. I also see a table in the Appendix, the Overview of the stages of evolution. This seems to complicate things even more, with multiple layers of nested epochs. It will take a while to integrate!

Yeah, there are many layers. However, it helps to remember the essential developments of each stage of consciousness (planetary) are recapitulated within the nested stages of rounds (life), globes (form), and epochs as well. For ex. old Saturn recapitulated in Polaris, Old Sun in Hyperborea, and Old Moon in Lemuria. So they are all self-similar in that sense, although new developments in consciousness occur because the unfolding takes place within a distinct environmental context. Here is another chart that may be helpful.






BTW, who is that in your profile pic?

[Federica]

Yeah, there are many layers. However, it helps to remember the essential developments of each stage of consciousness (planetary) are recapitulated within the nested stages of rounds (life), globes (form), and epochs as well. For ex. old Saturn recapitulated in Polaris, Old Sun in Hyperborea, and Old Moon in Lemuria. So they are all self-similar in that sense, although new developments in consciousness occur because the unfolding takes place within a distinct environmental context. Here is another chart that may be helpful.

Thanks, Ashvin, yes I saw this chart somewhere. It's very similar to the one in Kürten's book, but what I hadn't understood so far is that each time period at each "floor" of the chart - apart from the ground floor with our age's 7 cultural epochs - is subdivided into the 7 partitions outlined underneath it, and so forth towards the bottom line. So we are now in the "Physical" Globe, in its post-Atlantean age, which in turn goes through its (present) Anglo-German cultural epoch. But what's incredible is that, after cultural epochs 6 and 7 within our post Atlantean times, the 6th and 7th Great ages will start, each of which will have its 7 cultural epochs inside.... and so on, and only after that, the "Astral" globe level will start to unfold in 7 ages.... and so forth for millennia. Which means that Earth will certainly not die with the so-called War of all against all, towards the year 7000 AD or so, and not even with the end of the 7th Great age. Maybe sensory perceptible Earth will... if I am getting it right? Still, more Earth millennia will be ahead. Anyhow, I was foolish to search for a 1:1 correspondence between the Mineral round and the post-Atlantean age

BTW, who is that in your profile pic?

Well… that is me, or at least it's one reflection of my face yesterday evening. I know it breaks the pattern of not putting one’s own face as a profile picture here, and it may be surprising. I took it for another reason, and then it occurred to me that it could serve as profile picture, since I’ve been searching for one for months, without ever being satisfied with any symbols, paintings, drawings, or anything else.