The Nature of the sensory world or do we really *know* the ultimate ground of reality?

[Stranger]

That wasn’t the point. There is no chance understanding the Luciferic and Ahrmicanic impulses, balanced by the Christ impulse, if we continually seek to externalize them as good or evil powers, or 'controlled opposition', to analyze from a safe distance. These impulses live within our soul lives, each and every One. Our soul life unfolds within their overarching context, including our nondual meditations on Oneness. It's when we abstract and externalize these forces, by losing sight of the Christ impulse towards self-consciousness of the living details through which the One Spirit manifests, losing sight of the humble and meek Spirit of confession and repentance (metanoia), that we inevitably create an oppositional duality and oscillate between the poles. Then we start to imbue the Ahrimanic force of erroneous outer perception with Luciferic qualities, as you just did in the last post. Ahriman becomes Lucifer and the real Lucifer remains in the blind spot. Then we start to worship this hidden Lucifer as the Divine Oneness, the Holy Trinity, etc. Finally, to complete the circle of unconscious externalization, we project what we ourselves are doing, in the worship of the oppositional powers, onto others and the world at large. These are the far reaching consequences Steiner spoke of. So many aspects of modern existence can be understood if we become conscious of this dynamic through living understanding of the Christ impulse which works within our own thinking soul and mediates between the poles of Lucifer (over-spiritualization towards the One) and Ahriman (over-materialization towards the Many).

I already answered to Federica that what you are doing here an extremely twisted misinterpretation of the Christ message and impulse. The Christ's message and impulse is the appeal to Oneness that we are supposed to reach to and internalize as our inner experience and experiential sate of consciousness in this very human life, and not to turn it into any kind of over-spiritualization towards the One. And Christ did not say anything about a necessity of doing SS, studying extremely intellectualized esoteric teachings, and studying lawful structures and higher-order hierarchies. He preached Oneness to fishermen, prostitutes and criminals, which means that the doors to Oneness are always open to anyone anytime with no prerequisites. It is only your choice to enter them or turn away from them.

"I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them." (John 17)

[AshvinP]

That wasn’t the point. There is no chance understanding the Luciferic and Ahrmicanic impulses, balanced by the Christ impulse, if we continually seek to externalize them as good or evil powers, or 'controlled opposition', to analyze from a safe distance.

Of course they are all within us, but it is still a controlled opposition of forces within us controlled by the higher order beings of the dualistic hierarchy.

God and the devil are fighting there and the battlefield is the heart of man.
Dostoevsky

You imagine beings in bubble-like spheres who are mechanically controlling our soul-atomic sphere and thus you wonder if there is any way to dissect these operations and figure out exactly what strings/levers they pull and buttons they push to reduce our holistic ideas into fragmented concepts and perceptions. We are giving you ways upon ways to start deconditioning from this intellectualistic projection of the higher worlds which will forever block any further understanding during life on Earth and will continue to breed the resentment towards the Divine guidance which is on display.

For ex., if we begin to inwardly discern the higher beings who weave the Karmic laws through their activity, then we start to better understand how outer sensory events and objects are attracted to our own stream of becoming and shape the riverbed of structured potential through which it flows. We see how Cosmic and Earthly intents for Divine realization are bent into frictional conceptual-perceptual relations with the environment and our fellow human beings. We learn how our interactions with other people and things, both positive and negative, have worked to provide the fertile soil from which our Divine skills and capacities can grow, in proportion to how conscious we become of these living relations which we are always involved in. These aren't to be understood as abstract laws which apply to hypothetical people and which govern their behavior in some mechanical way that we can view from the side as in a movie - they are the forces which make sense of the nested Time potential structuring our first-person Earthly lives, in all its interactive dynamism. The desires, feelings, thoughts we have, the things we pay attention to, the places we live, the people we meet, the family we were born into, the culture to which we belong, the epoch in which we are placed, etc.

That is the nature of the familiar sensory world - it is why the sensory world exists as we experience it. Obviously these relations implicate deeply moral considerations for each individual which are in keeping with what all ancient scriptures relate to us as well. It's impossible to read the scriptures in any living way and miss how they speak to the core of our striving for moral perfection. We aren't going to find beings somewhere inside or outside of us which are having ideas of "separate apple", "separate table", "earthquake and hurricane", etc. and these then precipitate into the our normal Earthly consciousness and are responsible for all our suffering and struggles in the world. No ancient culture envisioned such an abstract and externalized interaction with the higher worlds. The apostle John was not envisioning these evil beings who are inserting lies and delusions into our consciousness to keep us from recognizing our Oneness with the Father and Son. If we simply acquire a devoted interest in the Earthly evolution, our fellow humans and their evolutionary history, their modes of consciousness, etc., then we won't keep deluding ourselves by projecting our current consciousness throughout the wide expanses of eternity.

None of this deconditioning can be done if we don't humbly admit something within our own soul-lives which needs to be progressively deconditioned, and instead seek to externalize the blame onto dualistic heirarchies, hoping in vain that it will all go away after death and we will be freely expanding into the Cosmic multiverse. "Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before the Fall." The principle reality of our fallen nature is very simple, as Cleric has said. It isn't to be found in NDE accounts, regression studies, YT videos, or our present interpretations of ancient documents. It is to be found in the intimate details of our own soul-life.

[Federica]

We already wrote tens of pages on these discussions going in circles.

Rather, we are all changing through these discussions.
We are not going in circles, we are spiraling, although through a waving pattern. It's very apparent, this is a fact, that only requires a review of the threads here, even a summary one would suffice, to be verified. We are not the same, you are evidently not the same you were in pre-Stranger phase, and what we have integrated or glimpsed at, big or small, can't be unseen.


As Ashvin said:

We see how Cosmic and Earthly intents for Divine realization are bent into frictional conceptual-perceptual relations with the environment and our fellow human beings. We learn how our interactions with other people and things, both positive and negative, have worked to provide the fertile soil from which our Divine skills and capacities can grow, in proportion to how conscious we become of these living relations which we are always involved in.

This is not a meaningless parethesis unrelated to the rest of your life and path. It's obviously no hazard that you, we, are having these discussions.

[Cleric K]

If you apply this argument to Being, it becomes pretty laughable. It's like saying that in addition to possibilities to exist and not to exist, there is also another possibility to exiexist, and may be even to exiexiexist

It can easily be seen that this is not so laughable after all. We just have to reflect on the fact that be-ing, experiencing and so on are all conceivable only through temporal becoming. Today even mainstream physics already questions whether time is fundamental (btw Matt at PBS Spacetime has started a series on precisely that question, although it's clear that it won't go too deep).

Here we have also spoken many times about the fact that our existences can be conceived as 'spectrum analysis' of eternal/simultaneous potential, that is being integrated back into eternity through temporal becoming. If we think about this deeply enough it will be clear that our be-ing through time is not some fundamental feature of reality. It will also be clear that we can't find hard binary transition between temporal existence and the eternal. In fact the whole depth of the green line is the gradient between eternity and temporality/differentiation.

In other words, we commit an error when we split reality into 'what consciousness is' and 'what consciousness does', while believing that through the mystical oneness we already know what consciousness is and all that's left is to endlessly explore what consciousness can do (Gödel's candy shop through endless Newtonian time).

All attempts here are to show that even our intuition of 'what consciousness is' is something that is subject to evolution. This is the true meaning of pushing the envelope - to have the courage and humility that no matter how evolved we are, our whole sense of be-ing will continue to turn inside-out and that as long as we're becoming through time, there will always be something of the Divine that doesn't yet fit our intuition of what consciousness, existence and so on, are.

Naturally this could be our greatest source of joy because there's still infinitely more to learn and be amazed by things which even if anticipated, could never be experientially known until the potential turns inside-out within our perspective. On the other hand, our conviction that we have reached the primal intuition of what existence is, what be-ing is, serves for nothing more but a ceiling for our evolution.

And if the Christ message is to be mentioned, we should also notice that the Christ prays and does the Will of the Father. Until this point you haven't used too much of this in your quotes and we all know why - because your vision of Oneness is something very peculiar. You take from Oneness only the feeling that you belong to the top tier perspective of reality, yet other than that, you value most highly your sovereignty and freedom as an individual worldline that has only temporary 'business' relations with other beings but ultimately explores on its own.

[Stranger]

All attempts here are to show that even our intuition of 'what consciousness is' is something that is subject to evolution. This is the true meaning of pushing the envelope - to have the courage and humility that no matter how evolved we are, our whole sense of be-ing will continue to turn inside-out and that as long as we're becoming through time, there will always be something of the Divine that doesn't yet fit our intuition of what consciousness, existence and so on, are.

Naturally this could be our greatest source of joy because there's still infinitely more to learn and be amazed by things which even if anticipated, could never be experientially known until the potential turns inside-out within our perspective. On the other hand, our conviction that we have reached the primal intuition of what existence is, what be-ing is, serves for nothing more but a ceiling for our evolution.

Yes, it is subject to evolution in the direction of the depth and clarity of the realization of "what consciousness is". But such evolution can not even begin until we approach it from the dualistic perspective and identify ourselves with something separate from "what consciousness is". So, the outside-in turnaround point of experientially knowing ourselves as "what consciousness is" and dis-identifying from our sense of "separate self" and "separate objects" is needed as a gate to enter such evolutionary path.

And if the Christ message is to be mentioned, we should also notice that the Christ prays and does the Will of the Father. Until this point you haven't used too much of this in your quotes and we all know why - because your vision of Oneness is something very peculiar. You take from Oneness only the feeling that you belong to the top tier perspective of reality, yet other than that, you value most highly your sovereignty and freedom as an individual worldline that has only temporary 'business' relations with other beings but ultimately explores on its own.

I mentioned many times before that the path to Oneness goes trough the openness to the Divine and prayer, because we can not accomplish it only by our own efforts without the help of the Divine Grace (Holy Spirit). I also already answered (so we again going in circles) that in the nondual state the sovereignty is not of an individual exploring its own relations, but it is freedom from being enslaved by incoherent perception of reality and sovereignty from the influence from the dualistic hierarchies and structures: "And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free" (John 8)

If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[a] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. (John 14)

"It is God's Grace alone which gives wise men the desire to realize nondual Brahman" (Avadhuta Gita)

Again, as I said, you are pointing to all kinds of ways the nondual realization could be misinterpreted or misused and then use it as a reason to reject the nondual path altogether. Instead, if you would be sincerely interested in this path, you should rather take a constructive approach and find out how to approach the nondual path in the right way avoiding all those misuses and misinterpretations. It is still good to be aware of these misuses, but only to avoid them while practically travelling along the path, and not as an excuse not to enter the path.

[Cleric K]

Again, as I said, you are pointing to all kinds of ways the nondual realization could be misinterpreted or misused and then use it as a reason to reject the nondual path altogether. Instead, if you would be sincerely interested in this path, you should rather take a constructive approach and find out how to approach the nondual path in the right way avoiding all those misuses and misinterpretations. It is still good to be aware of these misuses, but only to avoid them while practically travelling along the path, and not as an excuse not to enter the path.

That path is not simply emotionally rejected without any examination. We can speak about this path precisely because we have some experience with it. If I wanted to have your approval all I would have to do is say something like Mike, that there're no words that can describe the state of Oneness, that we can only experience it through pure be-ing, to which you'll respond "Exactly!" Thus that path is one of mystical anticipation of whatever lies orthogonally after the threshold of death. You agree that there are many things that can be explored within the Earthly state but your interest lies beyond the threshold. You kinda admit that it is possible to explore the beyond even from within our Earthly state, yet the attitude is "Why hurt my eyes by trying to look at the beyond through a crooked telescope, when after death I'll just go there and see clearly?"

Yet as it has been established many ways, this position doesn't differ substantially from any other religious stance which anticipates its Paradisal state after death. The difference here is only in the way we relate to the Godhead (we believe we're already the perspective of the highest Divine, only more constrained). So your invitation to tread the nondual path is really like an invitation to share your belief of choice, that after death we'll be free in the nondual Heaven, only as long as we sincerely eliminate any inner division (doubt) about this. Like most religions that had their proper place through the dark age of the soul in the last few millennia, man is encouraged to live righteous life, to leave the mysteries of the world to God and the devil, and depart for the other world with dignity.

All that we're trying to do here is to point out that the times are changing and the Heavenly can now be discovered in its unity with the Earthly, within the human being itself. A process that started with the blood of the Christ falling and uniting with the Earth. What you see as an optional exploration of our structure, is the fully conscious discovery of the Heavenly within man and the world here and now, from whence it begins to grow and transfigure the Cosmos. As said, your position to this is "Why go through the pains of uniting Heaven and Earth within man in these difficult conditions, when we can simply be Heaven after death?" (I use Heaven as synonym of the nondual worlds).

[Stranger]

All that we're trying to do here is to point out that the times are changing and the Heavenly can now be discovered in its unity with the Earthly, within the human being itself. A process that started with the blood of the Christ falling and uniting with the Earth. What you see as an optional exploration of our structure, is the fully conscious discovery of the Heavenly within man and the world here and now, from whence it begins to grow and transfigure the Cosmos. As said, your position to this is "Why go through the pains of uniting Heaven and Earth within man in these difficult conditions, when we can simply be Heaven after death?" (I use Heaven as synonym of the nondual worlds).

I just don't get it: are you continuing twisting my words for purpose or what?

Christ's message is the appeal to Oneness that we are supposed to internalize as our inner experience in this very human life

Once you do it yourself in the current life, you will enter the community-hierarchy of nondual beings that will guide you in this life by "curving" your inner experiences and realizations on higher-cognition levels, and they will advice you what to do next depending on your level of maturity after leaving the body - whether to incarnate in some realms where you can further mature your state to be prepared for bodhisattva missions, or, if you are already mature enough, to recommend/assign you with bodhisattva missions in whatever domain they need your help (which can be the human or some other race). It is not a military-type-discipline hierarchy, neither it is a group of libertarians doing whatever they want according to individual preferences, but a group of volunteers at different levels of spiritual evolution abiding in the shared nondual state of consciousness and driven by shared Divine Love and Compassion for all living beings.

There is no any kind of "esoteric initiation" or prerequisites for entering the path, but what is needed is metanoia - metamorphosis of nous (soul) to turn away from the old dualistic and egoic ways of thinking, cognizing and behaving, deny your identification with separate self ("deny yourself" and follow Christ and his Holy Spirit: "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me" (Matthew 16)

[Cleric K]

I just don't get it: are you continuing twisting my words for purpose or what?

Christ's message is the appeal to Oneness that we are supposed to internalize as our inner experience in this very human life

Once you do it yourself in the current life, you will enter the community-hierarchy of nondual beings that will guide you in this life by "curving" your inner experiences and realizations on higher-cognition levels, and they will advice you what to do next depending on your level of maturity after leaving the body - whether to incarnate in some realms where you can further mature your state to be prepared for bodhisattva missions, or, if you are already mature enough, to recommend/assign you with bodhisattva missions in whatever domain they need your help (which can be the human or some other race). It is not a military-type-discipline hierarchy, neither it is a group of libertarians doing whatever they want according to individual preferences, but a group of volunteers at different levels of spiritual evolution abiding in the shared nondual state of consciousness and driven by shared Divine Love and Compassion for all living beings.

There is no any kind of "esoteric initiation" or prerequisites for entering the path, but what is needed is metanoia - metamorphosis of nous (soul) to turn away from the old dualistic and egoic ways of thinking, cognizing and behaving, deny your identification with separate self ("deny yourself" and follow Christ and his Holy Spirit: "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me" (Matthew 16)

OK, Eugene, as Federica says, hopefully we're really spiraling and not simply circling

I think I'll give it a little rest for a while Maybe just one more question: how do you envision the bodhisattva missions? For example, imagine that after you depart, you spend some time, maybe centuries, in the higher planes and then decide that you can make a sacrifice by going on a bodhisattva mission. How do you picture that mission? What do you expect to find on Earth and what will be your goals here?

[Stranger]

I think I'll give it a little rest for a while Maybe just one more question: how do you envision the bodhisattva missions? For example, imagine that after you depart, you spend some time, maybe centuries, in the higher planes and then decide that you can make a sacrifice by going on a bodhisattva mission. How do you picture that mission? What do you expect to find on Earth and what will be your goals here?

Oh, you are asking questions that are way beyond my level of competence. But I think the primary goal would be to assist other people on their spiritual evolution path, and also simultaneously continue further on deepening their own spiritual realization. We can see a lot of examples of such bodhisattvas in the distant or resent past like Christ, Buddha, some masters and saints of Eastern and Western traditions, or look and TNH of Dalai Lama as contemporary examples. Usually this kind of mission has support from the discarnate realms to make it most effective and arrange events in the lives of these bodhisattvas so that they become known and can help the evolution of as many people as possible. So if you see a lunatic guy like me preaching nonduality to three people on a philosophy forum, then he is most likely not a mission-assigned bodhisattva

[Federica]

I think I'll give it a little rest for a while Maybe just one more question: how do you envision the bodhisattva missions? For example, imagine that after you depart, you spend some time, maybe centuries, in the higher planes and then decide that you can make a sacrifice by going on a bodhisattva mission. How do you picture that mission? What do you expect to find on Earth and what will be your goals here?

Oh, you are asking questions that are way beyond my level of competence. But I think the primary goal would be to assist other people on their spiritual evolution path, and also simultaneously continue further on deepening their own spiritual realization. We can see a lot of examples of such bodhisattvas in the distant or resent past like Christ, Buddha, some masters and saints of Eastern and Western traditions, or look and TNH of Dalai Lama as contemporary examples. Usually this kind of mission has support from the discarnate realms to make it most effective and arrange events in the lives of these bodhisattvas so that they become known and can help the evolution of as many people as possible. So if you see a lunatic guy like me preaching nonduality to three people on a philosophy forum, then he is most likely not a mission-assigned bodhisattva

You are not on a bodhisattva mission but on a bodhisattva vow?