The Nature of the sensory world or do we really *know* the ultimate ground of reality?

[Stranger]

You are not on a bodhisattva mission but on a bodhisattva vow?

Yeah, in the Buddhist tradition anyone is welcomed to take the bodhisattva vow and become a kind of "bodhisattva-in-training", so it is nothing special (even though it is actually very special commitment if we look into the deep meanings of these vows)

The Four Bodhisattva Vows:
Beings are numberless; I vow to save them.
Delusions are inexhaustible; I vow to end them.
Dharma gates are boundless; I vow to enter them.
The Buddha Way is supreme; I vow to become it.

[Cleric K]

Oh, you are asking questions that are way beyond my level of competence. But I think the primary goal would be to assist other people on their spiritual evolution path, and also simultaneously continue further on deepening their own spiritual realization. We can see a lot of examples of such bodhisattvas in the distant or resent past like Christ, Buddha, some masters and saints of Eastern and Western traditions, or look and TNH of Dalai Lama as contemporary examples. Usually this kind of mission has support from the discarnate realms to make it most effective and arrange events in the lives of these bodhisattvas so that they become known and can help the evolution of as many people as possible. So if you see a lunatic guy like me preaching nonduality to three people on a philosophy forum, then he is most likely not a mission-assigned bodhisattva

OK Of course, here we can go further. For example, one question would be why when the Bodhisattva returns on a mission, the nature of the Earthly realm seems to still be as a quarantine zone and missions boil down to only giving knowledge to souls on how to evacuate. It's still unclear how and when the higher Christ mission has to be commenced, which will not only evacuate souls but will begin the spiritualization of the Earthly spectrum from within the incarnate state, by the Divine Spirit working through each individual human being, Inspiring and giving Life to the individual "I" and starting the transformation from our soul life towards the depth of the life and physical spectrum. But let's leave that for another iteration of the spiral.

[AshvinP]

All that we're trying to do here is to point out that the times are changing and the Heavenly can now be discovered in its unity with the Earthly, within the human being itself. A process that started with the blood of the Christ falling and uniting with the Earth. What you see as an optional exploration of our structure, is the fully conscious discovery of the Heavenly within man and the world here and now, from whence it begins to grow and transfigure the Cosmos. As said, your position to this is "Why go through the pains of uniting Heaven and Earth within man in these difficult conditions, when we can simply be Heaven after death?" (I use Heaven as synonym of the nondual worlds).

I just don't get it: are you continuing twisting my words for purpose or what?

Christ's message is the appeal to Oneness that we are supposed to internalize as our inner experience in this very human life

Once you do it yourself in the current life, you will enter the community-hierarchy of nondual beings that will guide you in this life by "curving" your inner experiences and realizations on higher-cognition levels, and they will advice you what to do next depending on your level of maturity after leaving the body - whether to incarnate in some realms where you can further mature your state to be prepared for bodhisattva missions, or, if you are already mature enough, to recommend/assign you with bodhisattva missions in whatever domain they need your help (which can be the human or some other race). It is not a military-type-discipline hierarchy, neither it is a group of libertarians doing whatever they want according to individual preferences, but a group of volunteers at different levels of spiritual evolution abiding in the shared nondual state of consciousness and driven by shared Divine Love and Compassion for all living beings.

There is no any kind of "esoteric initiation" or prerequisites for entering the path, but what is needed is metanoia - metamorphosis of nous (soul) to turn away from the old dualistic and egoic ways of thinking, cognizing and behaving, deny your identification with separate self ("deny yourself" and follow Christ and his Holy Spirit: "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me" (Matthew 16)

How is that we fully internalize the Oneness as inner experience in this lifetime without being able to know exactly why we see apples in the world around us? Of course this is pretty much rhetorical. What we don't get is why/how you keep missing the stark duality/discontinuity here between 'what Oneness is' and 'what Oneness does in the world'. If you functionally and practically treat them as two separate domains of experience/investigation (vertical vs. horizontal, nondual vs. dualistic, or whatever you want to call it), then that is an unconscious inner split, an unconscious inner discontinuity, and therefore the opposite of consciously treading the path of John 17, or 2 Corinthians 3, or any similar passages.

[Stranger]

How is that we fully internalize the Oneness as inner experience in this lifetime without being able to know exactly why we see apples in the world around us? Of course this is pretty much rhetorical. What we don't get is why/how you keep missing the stark duality/discontinuity here between 'what Oneness is' and 'what Oneness does in the world'. If you functionally and practically treat them as two separate domains of experience/investigation (vertical vs. horizontal, nondual vs. dualistic, or whatever you want to call it), then that is an unconscious inner split, an unconscious inner discontinuity, and therefore the opposite of consciously treading the path of John 17, or 2 Corinthians 3, or any similar passages.

"What Oneness is" and "what Oneness does" are not separate or discontinued domains, but are two inseparable aspects of the same reality and both can be approached only in a holistic way. The point is: you can only know how/why it does what it does if you also know what it is. If you don't know what it is and if you function in a dualistic state incoherent with what it is, then your knowledge of how/why it does what it does will necessarily be also incoherent with reality and incomplete.

[AshvinP]

How is that we fully internalize the Oneness as inner experience in this lifetime without being able to know exactly why we see apples in the world around us? Of course this is pretty much rhetorical. What we don't get is why/how you keep missing the stark duality/discontinuity here between 'what Oneness is' and 'what Oneness does in the world'. If you functionally and practically treat them as two separate domains of experience/investigation (vertical vs. horizontal, nondual vs. dualistic, or whatever you want to call it), then that is an unconscious inner split, an unconscious inner discontinuity, and therefore the opposite of consciously treading the path of John 17, or 2 Corinthians 3, or any similar passages.

"What Oneness is" and "what Oneness does" are not separate or discontinued domains, but are two inseparable aspects of the same reality and both can be approached only in a holistic way. The point is: you can only know how/why it does what it does if you also know what it is. If you don't know what it is and if you function in a dualistic state incoherent with what it is, then your knowledge of how/why it does what it does will necessarily be also incoherent with reality and incomplete.

Yes but the above still implies they are separate domains. Again, it's about how they are functioning in your approach, not about whether you say "they are two inseperable aspects". The only way they are truly functioning as a united domain in our approach is if we come to progressively realize how knowing 'what it does' is the same as knowing 'what it is'. If we say we should first know what it is and then that will open the gate to coherently knowing what it does, then we are still treating them as separate domains. One is acting as a foundation and the other as a super-structure overlaid on top (or worked out below). That is still an erroneoous, discontinuous treatement. Whatever it is has intentionally enfolded itself in the 'dualistic state', and continually does so for wave after wave of spiritual beings, who progressively unfold its structure from the dualistic state from their relational perspective and thereby redeem the structure for subsequent waves to do their own unfolding. The enfolding process from one relational perspective is the unfolding process from another one (of course we need to make the intellect more imaginatively pliable before we even begin to internalize the meaning of this). This very rhythmic enfolding-unfolding processual quality is what translates into 'ceaseless evolution from-to the Divine' from our perspective. If we can't steer our consciousness through the inner structure of this process, extending our thinking tentacles and 'touching' its richly textured contours along the way so that holistic understanding of entire structure expands along with our aperture of being-becoming, then we are not realizing the Divine Oneness in any reasonable sense of the word "realization".

[Stranger]

Yes but the above still implies they are separate domains. Again, it's about how they are functioning in your approach, not about whether you say "they are two inseperable aspects". The only way they are truly functioning as a united domain in our approach is if we come to progressively realize how knowing 'what it does' is the same as knowing 'what it is'. If we say we should first know what it is and then that will open the gate to coherently knowing what it does, then we are still treating them as separate domains. One is acting as a foundation and the other as a super-structure overlaid on top (or worked out below). That is still an erroneoous, discontinuous treatement. Whatever it is has intentionally enfolded itself in the 'dualistic state', and continually does so for wave after wave of spiritual beings, who progressively unfold its structure from the dualistic state from their relational perspective and thereby redeem the structure for subsequent waves to do their own unfolding. The enfolding process from one relational perspective is the unfolding process from another one (of course we need to make the intellect more imaginatively pliable before we even begin to internalize the meaning of this). This very rhythmic enfolding-unfolding processual quality is what translates into 'ceaseless evolution from-to the Divine' from our perspective. If we can't steer our consciousness through the inner structure of this process, extending our thinking tentacles and 'touching' its richly textured contours along the way so that holistic understanding of entire structure expands along with our aperture of being-becoming, then we are not realizing the Divine Oneness in any reasonable sense of the word "realization".

The process is always progressive, as I said, the knowing what it is also always progressively deepens just like the knowing of what it does progressively always extends to the "textured contours". The process extends in all aspects of Reality simultaneously, including the aspects of oneness/essence and the aspects of forms and textures. Their inseparability needs to be experienced, not just abstractly intellectualized. But until you start realizing that the reality is One in Essence, realize the common existential aspects of what Reality is that "glue" it all into Oneness, stop incoherently splitting it into "me as an experiencer" and "objects or other people that I experience" and start functioning coherently with this realization, all the knowledge of the "textured contours" will always be similarly dualistically fractured and distorted. But once the incoherent "separate self" is sacrificed, the inseparability of the aspects of Essene and textures/forms gradually becomes experientially more and more evident and the progressive expansion into both aspects will continue in a coherent way.

[AshvinP]

Yes but the above still implies they are separate domains. Again, it's about how they are functioning in your approach, not about whether you say "they are two inseperable aspects". The only way they are truly functioning as a united domain in our approach is if we come to progressively realize how knowing 'what it does' is the same as knowing 'what it is'. If we say we should first know what it is and then that will open the gate to coherently knowing what it does, then we are still treating them as separate domains. One is acting as a foundation and the other as a super-structure overlaid on top (or worked out below). That is still an erroneoous, discontinuous treatement. Whatever it is has intentionally enfolded itself in the 'dualistic state', and continually does so for wave after wave of spiritual beings, who progressively unfold its structure from the dualistic state from their relational perspective and thereby redeem the structure for subsequent waves to do their own unfolding. The enfolding process from one relational perspective is the unfolding process from another one (of course we need to make the intellect more imaginatively pliable before we even begin to internalize the meaning of this). This very rhythmic enfolding-unfolding processual quality is what translates into 'ceaseless evolution from-to the Divine' from our perspective. If we can't steer our consciousness through the inner structure of this process, extending our thinking tentacles and 'touching' its richly textured contours along the way so that holistic understanding of entire structure expands along with our aperture of being-becoming, then we are not realizing the Divine Oneness in any reasonable sense of the word "realization".

The process is always progressive, as I said, the knowing what it is also always progressively deepens just like the knowing of what it does progressively always extends to the "textured contours". The process extends in all aspects of Reality simultaneously, including the aspects of oneness/essence and the aspects of forms and textures. Their inseparability needs to be experienced, not just abstractly intellectualized. But until you start realizing that the reality is One in Essence, realize the common existential aspects of what Reality is that "glue" it all into Oneness, stop incoherently splitting it into "me as an experiencer" and "objects or other people that I experience" and start functioning coherently with this realization, all the knowledge of the "textured contours" will always be similarly dualistically fractured and distorted. But once the incoherent "separate self" is sacrificed, the inseparability of the aspects of Essene and textures/forms gradually becomes experientially more and more evident and the progressive expansion into both aspects will continue in a coherent way.

Yes, the bold has been granted as the most basic step that we need to take - to stop idolizing the perceptual spectrum as an independent reality which we can only know from the outside-in, as quantitative structures which conceal an opaque and 'private' inner life or no inner life at all.

But we have also established that the underlined is insufficient for the goal in blue. You have said it yourself in many different ways. Every time we ask about the inseperable connection between the Spirit and its living manifestations in forms/processes, you say this remains to be seen, you are hindered or slowed down, etc. At the extreme end, you say it's practically beyond all hope in our Earthly state and there is no evidence spiritual evolution of the formative world is even happening. At less extreme times, you say it can probably be attained but there is not much evidence of concrete knowledge of the attainment and it will take some major apocalyptic event for humanity and the Earth to transform.

All this indicates it's not only that insufficient steps have been taken, but that the sacrifice of 'separate self' has been lumped in with something much more fundamental and critical for any chance of distinguishing the living details of the Spirit's manifestation in the conceptual-perceptual spectrum. We have referred to this as the structural integrity of our conscious aperture which progressively awakens to its creative responsibility in the Divine Self but is at no time identical in its awakened experience with that Divine Self, in any of its aspects. What you call the timeless-changeless aspect of the Self is exactly that structural integrity which allows for continuity of consciousness through all possible nested perspectives and worldlines in process of ceaseless becoming. It is the Divine 'I AM' which is simultaneously One-Many, through the power of Wisdom-Love.

Now I can already tell this has become too abstract, and the risk with that is it will simply be agreed with, but we will have no idea what is actually being agreed to and what has been understood and how it has been understood. That's why we also started going into the concrete living details and tried to tease out your understanding of them, quite unsuccessfully So the only thing I can think of is to start the next iteration of spiral now and return to this:

It's still unclear how and when the higher Christ mission has to be commenced, which will not only evacuate souls but will begin the spiritualization of the Earthly spectrum from within the incarnate state, by the Divine Spirit working through each individual human being, Inspiring and giving Life to the individual "I" and starting the transformation from our soul life towards the depth of the life and physical spectrum.

We need to start tackling some of these things directly and concretely, without lapsing into super vague commentary. We have already established this aspect of spiritualizing the forms/processes of the soul-life-physical spectrum is nothing other than the aspect of awakening to the essence of the Spirit itself. They must be One and the same. So how do you concretely imagine this has commenced, is commencing, or will commence?

[Stranger]

Yes, the bold has been granted as the most basic step that we need to take - to stop idolizing the perceptual spectrum as an independent reality which we can only know from the outside-in, as quantitative structures which conceal an opaque and 'private' inner life or no inner life at all.

But we have also established that the underlined is insufficient for the goal in blue. You have said it yourself in many different ways. Every time we ask about the inseperable connection between the Spirit and its living manifestations in forms/processes, you say this remains to be seen, you are hindered or slowed down, etc. At the extreme end, you say it's practically beyond all hope in our Earthly state and there is no evidence spiritual evolution of the formative world is even happening. At less extreme times, you say it can probably be attained but there is not much evidence of concrete knowledge of the attainment and it will take some major apocalyptic event for humanity and the Earth to transform.

All this indicates it's not only that insufficient steps have been taken, but that the sacrifice of 'separate self' has been lumped in with something much more fundamental and critical for any chance of distinguishing the living details of the Spirit's manifestation in the conceptual-perceptual spectrum. We have referred to this as the structural integrity of our conscious aperture which progressively awakens to its creative responsibility in the Divine Self but is at no time identical in its awakened experience with that Divine Self, in any of its aspects. What you call the timeless-changeless aspect of the Self is exactly that structural integrity which allows for continuity of consciousness through all possible nested perspectives and worldlines in process of ceaseless becoming. It is the Divine 'I AM' which is simultaneously One-Many, through the power of Wisdom-Love.

We need to start tackling some of these things directly and concretely, without lapsing into super vague commentary. We have already established this aspect of spiritualizing the forms/processes of the soul-life-physical spectrum is nothing other than the aspect of awakening to the essence of the Spirit itself. They must be One and the same. So how do you concretely imagine this has commenced, is commencing, or will commence?

You are overintellectualizing it, and you can't get it by overintellectualizing. As Jesus said "Martha, you are worried and distracted by many things; but there is need of only one thing". You need to practice it and know it experientially. Otherwise, we will be debating forever whether it should be called "structural integrity" or "changeless-timeless" or else. Remember, Christ taught it to fishermen who had no clue what "structural integrity" means, yet they were able to realize their oneness with the Father. As I said many times, I'm not qualified to be a guide for practicing it. But if you are really motivated and believe that this is the right path for you, you should be able to figure it out, the Spirit will guide you, you will gradually find all the answers and you will find the right teachers if you need their help.

[AshvinP]

Yes, the bold has been granted as the most basic step that we need to take - to stop idolizing the perceptual spectrum as an independent reality which we can only know from the outside-in, as quantitative structures which conceal an opaque and 'private' inner life or no inner life at all.

But we have also established that the underlined is insufficient for the goal in blue. You have said it yourself in many different ways. Every time we ask about the inseperable connection between the Spirit and its living manifestations in forms/processes, you say this remains to be seen, you are hindered or slowed down, etc. At the extreme end, you say it's practically beyond all hope in our Earthly state and there is no evidence spiritual evolution of the formative world is even happening. At less extreme times, you say it can probably be attained but there is not much evidence of concrete knowledge of the attainment and it will take some major apocalyptic event for humanity and the Earth to transform.

All this indicates it's not only that insufficient steps have been taken, but that the sacrifice of 'separate self' has been lumped in with something much more fundamental and critical for any chance of distinguishing the living details of the Spirit's manifestation in the conceptual-perceptual spectrum. We have referred to this as the structural integrity of our conscious aperture which progressively awakens to its creative responsibility in the Divine Self but is at no time identical in its awakened experience with that Divine Self, in any of its aspects. What you call the timeless-changeless aspect of the Self is exactly that structural integrity which allows for continuity of consciousness through all possible nested perspectives and worldlines in process of ceaseless becoming. It is the Divine 'I AM' which is simultaneously One-Many, through the power of Wisdom-Love.

We need to start tackling some of these things directly and concretely, without lapsing into super vague commentary. We have already established this aspect of spiritualizing the forms/processes of the soul-life-physical spectrum is nothing other than the aspect of awakening to the essence of the Spirit itself. They must be One and the same. So how do you concretely imagine this has commenced, is commencing, or will commence?

You are overintellectualizing it, and you can't get it by overintellectualizing. As Jesus said "Martha, you are worried and distracted by many things; but there is need of only one thing". You need to practice it and know it experientially. Otherwise, we will be debating forever whether it should be called "structural integrity" or "changeless-timeless" or else. Remember, Christ taught it to fishermen who had no clue what "structural integrity" means, yet they were able to realize their oneness with the Father. As I said many times, I'm not qualified to be a guide for practicing it. But if you are really motivated and believe that this is the right path for you, you should be able to figure it out, the Spirit will guide you, you will gradually find all the answers and you will find the right teachers if you need their help.

Ok, I will take this non-response avoidance strategy as simply a confirmation of what was said before:

You agree that there are many things that can be explored within the Earthly state but your interest lies beyond the threshold. You kinda admit that it is possible to explore the beyond even from within our Earthly state, yet the attitude is "Why hurt my eyes by trying to look at the beyond through a crooked telescope, when after death I'll just go there and see clearly?"

Yet as it has been established many ways, this position doesn't differ substantially from any other religious stance which anticipates its Paradisal state after death. The difference here is only in the way we relate to the Godhead (we believe we're already the perspective of the highest Divine, only more constrained). So your invitation to tread the nondual path is really like an invitation to share your belief of choice, that after death we'll be free in the nondual Heaven, only as long as we sincerely eliminate any inner division (doubt) about this. Like most religions that had their proper place through the dark age of the soul in the last few millennia, man is encouraged to live righteous life, to leave the mysteries of the world to God and the devil, and depart for the other world with dignity.

We tried! Until the next iteration...

[Stranger]

Yet as it has been established many ways, this position doesn't differ substantially from any other religious stance which anticipates its Paradisal state after death.

We tried! Until the next iteration...

Misinterpretations again and again. So, repeating again for the 3rd time in this thread:
Christ's message is the appeal to Oneness that we are supposed to internalize as our inner experience in this very human life

“I am crucified with Christ, but I live; yet not I anymore, but Christ lives in me" (Galatians 2:20) [meaning: lives in me NOW in this life]
"the kingdom of God is within you" (Luke.17) [meaning that it is already within you, even now, the only thing you need to do is discover it experientially]

You know, pretending to be an idiot does not look funny actually, I know you are smarter than that

But how is that such a simple thing that Christ taught to fishermen is still inconceivable for advanced spiritual scientist learned in philosophy and esoteric teachings?

“I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children." (Matthew 11:12)