Fairy Tales for the Spirit

Any topics primarily focused on metaphysics can be discussed here, in a generally casual way, where conversations may take unexpected turns.
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AshvinP
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Re: Fairy Tales for the Spirit

Post by AshvinP »

Stranger wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:31 pm
Federica wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:29 pm I want to give this a proper answer. I don't have time now, I'll have to do it later today.
When you do it, also show me where BK, Nikolaj, or me ever said that they already know everything and nave no "reverence and longing towards the unexpected, the unsuspected, the unimagined". I believe that any honest and genuine philosopher or spiritual practitioner (I believe me included) are always driven by "reverence and longing towards the unexpected, the unsuspected, the unimagined".

Eugene,

I'm not going to bother again explaining the difference between what is said outwardly and one's inner approach to these things. The fact that you have problem making this distinction itself reveals the lack of longing towards the unsuspected inner realities which impress the outer forms of our conceptual life. It is also revealed clearly by comments such as this:

Yes, this is a good analogy of how intuitive cognition functions and grasps the wholeness at once with all its constant metamorphosis and structure, as opposed to intellectual cognition that breaks the world into pieces and, like a moving ray, "scans" it one piece at a time. That is why it is only the intuitive cognition (once it becomes sufficiently developed) that can reach to oneness.

Intuitive cognition is something completely unexpected, unsuspected, and unimagined for Federica, yourself, and me. That much is very clear to Federica and myself, but not to you. Instead, you feel that it's exactly the same thing you have inwardly experienced through nondual practice and which brings you into communion with Oneness. You did the same thing in quoting Steiner on Intuitive cognition and referencing that quote several times. So clearly you feel this lofty spiritual reality is something already encompassed by your current experience. Only the personal incarnate ego can be demeaned, insulted, etc. when such truth, which is otherwise plain as day, is pointed out to it. The transpersonal Self takes such pointers as 'its own win', as Federica said, just as it does when incarnating into its various sheaths from incarnation to incarnation. It confronts them honestly, with courage, and learns and grows from them, extracting their fruits and moving on.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
mikekatz
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Re: Fairy Tales for the Spirit

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"Once upon a time there was a poor lad who had a clever cat. And this clever cat helped the poor lad—who owned nothing apart from himself—to a great fortune. This is what she did: she persuaded the king that the poor lad owned a great, wondrous and remarkable estate, which the king himself would do well to see. And the clever cat succeeded in getting the king to set off on a journey to see it, and to travel through many, very remarkable regions. Wherever he went, the clever cat arranged for the king to be told that the great estate of this poor lad possessed great fields and meadows and all kinds of wonderful buildings. Finally the king arrived at a great and magical castle. But he arrived a little late, in the terms of a fairy tale, since it was already the time when the great giant or troll returned home from his travels through the universe and wished to enter his palace again. The king was inside the palace and wished to see all its magical wonders. The clever cat stretched out therefore in front of the gateway so that the king should not notice that all this actually belonged to the giant, the troll. When the giant returned home towards morning, the cat began to tell the giant a story, persuading him that he must listen to it. At great length she told him how the farmer ploughs his fields, how he manures it, how he must plough in the manure, how he fetches the seed that he wishes to sow, and then how he sows it. She told him such a long story that morning came and the sun rose. And then the clever cat told the giant, who had never seen this sight, to stay and look upon the golden virgin in the East, the sun. But there’s a law to which giants are subject, and when he turned round to look at the sun, he burst asunder. And so, by delaying the giant in this way, the palace became the poor lad’s property. He no longer had his estate by hearsay only, by the cat’s machinations, but he now did truly own the giant’s palace and everything that belonged to it."

Hi Ashvin
Thanks, a beautiful illustration of the necessity of the non-dual experience to properly understand the dual world.
Mike
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Re: Fairy Tales for the Spirit

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AshvinP wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:35 pm Intuitive cognition is something completely unexpected, unsuspected, and unimagined for Federica, yourself, and me. That much is very clear to Federica and myself, but not to you. Instead, you feel that it's exactly the same thing you have inwardly experienced through nondual practice and which brings you into communion with Oneness. You did the same thing in quoting Steiner on Intuitive cognition and referencing that quote several times. So clearly you feel this lofty spiritual reality is something already encompassed by your current experience. Only the personal incarnate ego can be demeaned, insulted, etc. when such truth, which is otherwise plain as day, is pointed out to it. The transpersonal Self takes such pointers as 'its own win', as Federica said, just as it does when incarnating into its various sheaths from incarnation to incarnation. It confronts them honestly, with courage, and learns and grows from them, extracting their fruits and moving on.
Not in the least. I see the intuitive cognition having no end in developing and deepening. At the same time, I see the presence of some level of intuitive cognition in all people, including BK. Nikolaj or any other philosopher, an find it very arrogant to assume that they do not have any degree of intuitive cognition and that only anthroposophists can ever have intuitive cognition developed.

And this is yet another example of your demeaning and misinterpreting of other people's words and views. This is not about personal insults (which is again your another intentional misinterpretation of my position), but about having a constructive dialog for the purpose of finding the truth together. It is impossible to have a collective endeavor towards finding the truth when some members of the group intentionally demean and misinterpret statements, opinions or views of other members for the sake of proving themselves right by any means. This is my last reply to you.
"You are not a drop in the ocean, you are the ocean in a drop" Rumi
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AshvinP
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Re: Fairy Tales for the Spirit

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Stranger wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:47 pm
AshvinP wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:35 pm Intuitive cognition is something completely unexpected, unsuspected, and unimagined for Federica, yourself, and me. That much is very clear to Federica and myself, but not to you. Instead, you feel that it's exactly the same thing you have inwardly experienced through nondual practice and which brings you into communion with Oneness. You did the same thing in quoting Steiner on Intuitive cognition and referencing that quote several times. So clearly you feel this lofty spiritual reality is something already encompassed by your current experience. Only the personal incarnate ego can be demeaned, insulted, etc. when such truth, which is otherwise plain as day, is pointed out to it. The transpersonal Self takes such pointers as 'its own win', as Federica said, just as it does when incarnating into its various sheaths from incarnation to incarnation. It confronts them honestly, with courage, and learns and grows from them, extracting their fruits and moving on.
Not in the least. I see the intuitive cognition having no end in developing and deepening. At the same time, I see the presence of some level of intuitive cognition in all people, including BK. Nikolaj or any other philosopher, an find it very arrogant to assume that they do not have any degree of intuitive cognition and that only anthroposophists can ever have intuitive cognition developed.

And this is yet another example of your demeaning and misinterpreting of other people's words and views. This is not about personal insults (which is again your another intentional misinterpretation of my position), but about having a constructive dialog for the purpose of finding the truth together. It is impossible to have a collective endeavor towards finding the truth when some members of the group intentionally demean and misinterpret statements, opinions or views of other members for the sake of proving themselves right by any means. This is my last reply to you.

Alright, well, whether you know it or not, every comment you post continues to imply you are treating Intuitive cognition as something already clearly sensed within your current volume of experience.

Of course this cognition is always present in our experience and, without it, there would be no manifest World to speak of. There is not 'some level of intuitive cognition in all people', but it is the very mode of ideational activity which manifests all people as we know them. That should already suggest to us that becoming conscious of this activity cannot be likened to anything we are intellectually familiar with. Phenomenology of Spirit isn't satisfied with metaphysical abstractions like "everyone has intuitive cognition", "the World is a fairy tale imagined by consciousness", and so forth, no matter how 'correct' those abstract statements are. As we keep pointing out, what matters for gaining true insight into spiritual reality is how we think, feel, and act, not the content of our thinking. Metaphysical thinking continually diminishes the quality of our thinking and reinforces its flattened horizontal tendencies. We can never reach 'escape velocity' with our thinking if we are unwilling to sacrifice those tendencies.

The fact is, all spiritual paths do not lead to the conscious development of Intuitive cognition. In fact, most of them don't even lead close to the development of Imaginative cognition, which is a necessary precondition. You are using terms from Anthroposophy (and other esoteric streams) which point to very definite occult faculties, but then deciding to make them mean whatever you want them to mean, which happens to be whatever you are already doing in your own spiritual practice. Now you have expanded them to also mean what BK and Nikolaj are doing, whereas someone who had even taken the first steps towards Imaginative cognition would never think to make such videos as the one on 'triadic idealism'. Yes, there can be no constructive dialog when a person is simply unwilling to own up to the fact of their own misunderstanding in this area, despite multiple people pointing it out in every possible way they can think of.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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Re: Fairy Tales for the Spirit

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AshvinP wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:49 pm
Federica wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 9:05 am
AshvinP wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:21 am Wow, that's a grim one, Federica :) . Thanks for sharing! The Greek myths are always interesting and complex. Even their Divinities were clothed in very human qualities (for good esoteric reason).

The resentful-revengeful dynamic between the brothers of course reminds of Abel and Cain, where the latter became resentful of the former due to God's favoring Abel's sacrificial offering, so Cain proceeds to murder him. Legend has it that the sons of Seth (the son after Abel) represent the stream of the priesthood, which through the mysteries remained intuitively connected with the spiritual worlds and continued to foster religious impulses, and the sons of Cain represent the stream of the craftsmen, through which art and technology and outer civilization developed. These two streams then meet again in Christ incarnate, who as usual bridges the polarity and provides the potential to resolve the bitter enmity through higher, Love-imbued cognition.

The chopping of the children into pieces also reminds of Osiris, who was dismembered and scattered across the Earth (and was later rescued/restored by his son, Horus). I think the Greeks also had a similar myth with Dionysius the Elder. Esoterically that symbolizes the death of ancient spiritual sight so the individual thinking soul could emerge. Perhaps there is something similar symbolized in this myth, since the higher modes of cognition in their innocent spiritual state still flow through young children. I'm not sure about that. Of course there are probably many more deeper layers of meaning as well. I was curious as to what the pomegranate flower may relate to. A quick Google search revealed the following:


Thank you for the comments, Ashvin! Yes, it's pretty terrifying. I still remember how it felt the first time I heard it, trying to come to terms with, or grasp, those dark, unfathomable magnitudes of hatred.
You and Cleric often say that the scriptures can be entirely re-read as esoteric word, and it's so insightful to attempt to do the same with the myths. Lots of knowledge and imagination would be necessary, I feel I can barely start to scratch the surface, but I'm still grateful for the minuscule (for me) openings that even a short exchange like this one can suggest.

I agree, Federica, it is very rewarding to revisit, with our living thinking, these amazing heritages from whence our civilization arose. As people begin to explicitly or implicitly discern the spiritual depth structure of the human organism, and its relation to the unfolding Earthly and Cosmic rhythms, they will also discern how much profound truth and wisdom was embedded in these myths/scriptures. They all point to intimate realities which are still with us, modulating our cognitive soul-life and therefore our life experiences. Since you shared an ancient Greek myth, I want to share a passage from Steiner which can help orient us towards their complexities:

Steiner wrote:Hence in Greco-Latin times we have the remarkable phenomenon that mankind seems to be thrown upon its own resources, seems to be self-sufficient. There has been no epoch of civilisation since the Atlantean catastrophe during which man was thrown so entirely on his own resources, or in which so much depended upon his expressing his own peculiar self as in the Greco-Latin time. Hence we see too how everything in this epoch tends to bring to expression in its purest form the human individuality. It could be said that this was so because the guiding hierarchies slackened the reins, because at this time men were most left to themselves.
...
We said yesterday that in contradistinction to conditions prevailing in previous epochs — in the Persian and the Egypto-Chaldean epochs — during the Greco-Latin culture the reins of spiritual guidance from above were less tightly drawn. That the Greeks were conscious of this somewhat freer relationship between the divine Spirits and men is quite clear from the way in which they depicted their gods, giving them thoroughly human traits, one might even say human frailties, human passions, human sympathies and antipathies. From this we can infer that they knew that, just as human beings on the physical plane have to strive to make progress, the gods immediately above them do the same thing—they strive to transcend such qualities as they have. In fact, compared with the gods of Egypt or Persia, the Greek gods needed so much to make progress in their own evolution that they could not bother themselves much about men! Hence came that standing-upon-its-own-feet of Greek civilisation which is so truly human. The bond between gods and men was looser than ever before. It was just because they were aware of this that the Greeks could depict their gods as so human.

Here we find from another angle why the often maligned 'Lucifer impulse' towards 'dualistic perception-cognition' is a primary reason we can speak of higher human development in culture, which provides a foundation for our striving towards reunion with the spirit worlds in freedom. We easily forget these days how our ancestors had to struggle with the necessities of nature, constantly concerned about famines and droughts, or who would murder, rape, or pillage from them. There were no things such as universal human rights and dignity, equality before the law, free speech and exercise of religion, etc. We may imagine people always had the time and capacity to meditate in relative peace and solitude like we do now, keeping the last few thousand years of cultural progress in the blind spot. It's interesting to also notice how, what was portrayed as a rather gruesome act of dismemberment in ancient Egyptian and Greco-Latin myths - the weaning off of ancient clairvoyance - was actively sought in the ancient Hebrew stream. The worship of idols was prohibited, the mixing in with other races and nations, and the intellectual faculty which could precisely analyze in terms of number, weight, and measure was cultivated. 

"You shall do no injustice in judgment, in measurement of length, weight, or volume. You shall have honest scales, honest weights, an honest ephah, and an honest hin: I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt."

It seems to me that revisiting these scriptures, myths, and fairy tales also help us recover a sense of more profound gratitude for the wondrous progress in human civilization which has been bestowed upon us, which we ourselves also partook in through previous incarnations, and therefore a sense of responsibility towards bringing these works to completion through the inner capacities which have been founded upon waves and waves of sacrifice. 

"And in this I give advice: It is to your advantage not only to be doing what you began and were desiring to do a year ago; but now you also must complete the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to desire it, so there also may be a completion out of what you have. For if there is first a willing mind, it is accepted according to what one has, and not according to what he does not have."

But, as you also mentioned to Eugene, "we should not imagine that we already have an idea of how our cognition would expand, along which lines." That has proven to be the greatest difficulty in communicating such things - because every act of communication is easily mistaken by the clever and cunning cat for an act of theorizing, speculating, modeling, as we see from the discussion on the other 'triadic idealism' thread. There is not in the least a reverent longing towards the unexpected, the unsuspected, the unimagined. These terms seem to have no true import for the clever intellect, which stands at the periphery and manages to assimilate all analogies, metaphors, illustrations, etc., which point to supra-sensory realities, to its own personalized conceptions and ends. The timely post you shared from Cleric also highlights that fact in a very helpful way, as usual, via the CRT analogy. It still isn't understood that all attempts to model spiritual reality, of necessity, try to speed up the intellect, cram in more concepts, and build ever-more complicated structures. It isn't understood that this process is exactly what is standing in the way of enlivening/expanding the thinking consciousness into resonance with unsuspected spiritual forces.

In that connection, I want to share some additional excerpts from Steiner's lecture on fairy tales. It should really highlight how we need to sacrifice a singular focus on the content of our perceptions, experiences, thoughts, theories, models, etc., which we dimly try to match up with that reality so we can feel like we are making progress when we merely manage to reach the same things philosophers already accomplished hundreds of years ago, in order to actually experience the living texture of the cognitive soul-life which continuously animates that content. 

If we study sagas, myths and legends, we will always find that their traits, while hearkening to supersensible laws, are pervaded by the laws of external reality, that they trace a path from the world of spirit into the external world. And the sources of historical accounts, or those that are in some way connected with history, are of course connected with actual figures. Fairy tale alone does not allow itself to be configured in real or historical garb, but remains quite free in regard to them. It can draw as it likes on everything that exists in reality, and does so. Fairy tales are therefore the purest offspring of ancient primitive clairvoyance, are something like compensation for loss of ancient, primitive clairvoyance. Prosaic minds, pedants, who regard everything with a professorial eye, may not feel this. Nor do they need to, for the simple reason that they invariably want to establish the relation of any truth to outer reality. 

A figure like Capesius seeks the truth above all else. He cannot be satisfied by asking how a truth relates to ‘reality’. Is a truth confirmed, he asks himself, if we say it represents something that accords with the outer world? Things can be as true as you like, can be true and right and correct, yet may have as little connection with reality as the truth of that village lad who went to buy buns. His sums were correct but they bore no relation to reality: he worked out that, with his ten pennies, he should get five buns. This village lad behaved just like the philosophers who theorize about reality. But what he failed to consider was that in that particular village you got one free if you bought five. This was something that had no logic about it, and that no philosophy would have concluded. But nevertheless it was reality. So Capesius is not interested in how a particular idea, one or another concept, accords with ‘reality’. Instead his first question was what the human soul experiences in relation to any concept it forms. In everything that can only be outer reality, the human soul experiences desiccation, aridity, the capacity for continual death in the soul; and so Capesius needs to be refreshed by Frau Felicia’s fairy tale, needs something that need not be ‘true’ at all as far as external reality is concerned, a content that is real but that does not need to be true in the ordinary sense. And it is this content that helps prepare him to find his way into the occult world.

In the fairy tale we retain something like an offspring, an echo, of what people experienced in ancient clairvoyance. It is a form whose legitimacy is precisely due to the fact that no one who allows it to work upon them will assert that it bears a relationship to external reality. In the imaginative world of fairy tales, the poor lad who otherwise possesses nothing apart from his clever cat, takes ownership of a palace that protrudes into immediate reality. And so fairy tale can be a wonderful spiritual food for every age. When we tell children suitable fairy tales, we stir to life in the child’s soul something that does not lead them only toward life in a way that requires every idea to accord with external reality—for such a relationship to reality desiccates and lays waste the soul. By contrast, the soul stays alive and fresh, so that it penetrates the whole human organization, if it feels a higher reality in the lawful forms and figures of fairy-tale images. These lift the soul entirely above the outer world. A person becomes more vigorous in life, can take hold of life with more vitality if fairy tales have acted upon their soul in childhood. For Capesius, fairy tales kindle imaginative perception. It is not what they contain, not what they convey but the way they unfold, how one aspect links to the next, that works on in his soul. One feature allows soul forces to strive upward, another to strive downward, and in others, in turn, an interplay arises between ascending and descending powers. By these means his soul comes into movement, and there is drawn forth from it something that ultimately enables him to behold the world of spirit. For many, a fairy tale can be the most stirring, stimulating thing.

For many, a fairy tale can be the most stirring, stimulating thing. And this is why we find in fairy tales that originated in earlier times something that shows how aspects of ancient clairvoyant consciousness played into them. Originally, fairy tales were not ‘conceived’ by someone, no one worked them out—unlike the theories of modern folktale scholars who ‘explain’ fairy tales. No, they were not authored in the way we conceive of this but are the last remnants of ancient clairvoyance, were experienced in dream states by those who still had such capacities. What was seen in dream was related, like the tale of Puss-in-Boots, which is simply another version of the fairy tale I told you today. All fairy tales first originated as the last vestiges of a primordial clairvoyance. And so a true fairy tale can only be created if—either consciously or unconsciously—the power of Imagination is present, projecting into the soul of the fairy tale creator. 

Steiner, Rudolf. The Mission of the New Spirit Revelation (p. 168). Rudolf Steiner Press. Kindle Edition. 

Ashvin, thanks for the many cues you were offering in this post, expanding on the fairy tale topic.
It’s noticeable how often the threads intertwine, to the extent that we are open to that. Reading what you have quoted about the Greeks and their Olympus, I went to the archive to read more about their relation with their human-like Gods. I didn’t find much about that in the quoted lecture, but what I found instead, is the answer to a question that came to mind yesterday, while reading Cleric’s episode on the nature of light: what is the spiritual nature of the stars, and what is the nature of their light? It should be unrelated, but this exact question is literally addressed at some later point of that same lecture! More generally, what I found in it is indeed the same substance of fairy tales, a nourishment that “help us recover a sense of more profound gratitude for the wondrous progress in human civilization which has been bestowed upon us”, as you say. In one word - an epic. And this epic not only offers a chance to cultivate the feeling of reverence and responsibility you have spoken of. It also helps make sense of the difficulty to see through the mask of the clever cat. We are all prompted to look at the inner and outer worlds through that mask, but for many, the mask has melted into the face, or even sunk below skin level, and they can’t peel it off. It becomes the universal meta-formatter of experience. And maybe this cannot be changed for the single individual, within their single incarnate cycle, unless a seed is already present. People can hardly be talked into bypassing the abstract intellect. They will always feel like they are asked to regress to inferior, pre-intelligent states, in an incomprehensible way. This is what I believe is implicit in the lecture. Nonetheless, as I am realizing from reading that tale, there is still utmost value and relevance in patiently and untiringly pursuing these communicative efforts, for the sake of advancing human evolution at the transpersonal level, and for the whole. Even if for the specific person on the receiving end, the attempt could be in vain, the spiritual ideas and language will resonate beyond the post and the forum, beyond all localized contexts, and they will work against the activity of the limiting beings who drag human thinking towards the Earth’s physical sheath. The expressed ideas will propagate and contribute to elevating the carrier waves of reality from within, to help the whole of humanity towards its becoming out of the Earthly sheath.
This is the goal towards which the sixth age of humanity will strive: the popularization of occult truth on a wide scale. That's the mission of this age and the society that unites spiritually has the task of bringing this occult truth to life everywhere and applying it directly. That's exactly what our age is missing.
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Re: Fairy Tales for the Spirit

Post by AshvinP »

Federica wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:17 pm Ashvin, thanks for the many cues you were offering in this post, expanding on the fairy tale topic.
It’s noticeable how often the threads intertwine, to the extent that we are open to that. Reading what you have quoted about the Greeks and their Olympus, I went to the archive to read more about their relation with their human-like Gods. I didn’t find much about that in the quoted lecture, but what I found instead, is the answer to a question that came to mind yesterday, while reading Cleric’s episode on the nature of light: what is the spiritual nature of the stars, and what is the nature of their light? It should be unrelated, but this exact question is literally addressed at some later point of that same lecture! More generally, what I found in it is indeed the same substance of fairy tales, a nourishment that “help us recover a sense of more profound gratitude for the wondrous progress in human civilization which has been bestowed upon us”, as you say. In one word - an epic. And this epic not only offers a chance to cultivate the feeling of reverence and responsibility you have spoken of. It also helps make sense of the difficulty to see through the mask of the clever cat. We are all prompted to look at the inner and outer worlds through that mask, but for many, the mask has melted into the face, or even sunk below skin level, and they can’t peel it off. It becomes the universal meta-formatter of experience. And maybe this cannot be changed for the single individual, within their single incarnate cycle, unless a seed is already present. People can hardly be talked into bypassing the abstract intellect. They will always feel like they are asked to regress to inferior, pre-intelligent states, in an incomprehensible way. This is what I believe is implicit in the lecture. Nonetheless, as I am realizing from reading that tale, there is still utmost value and relevance in patiently and untiringly pursuing these communicative efforts, for the sake of advancing human evolution at the transpersonal level, and for the whole. Even if for the specific person on the receiving end, the attempt could be in vain, the spiritual ideas and language will resonate beyond the post and the forum, beyond all localized contexts, and they will work against the activity of the limiting beings who drag human thinking towards the Earth’s physical sheath. The expressed ideas will propagate and contribute to elevating the carrier waves of reality from within, to help the whole of humanity towards its becoming out of the Earthly sheath.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the lecture, Federica. It definitely goes deep into the living spiritual context, as usual.

What you say about our communicative efforts, our Words (born of the Logos power within us), influencing evolution at the transpersonal level really needs to be emphasized. A sure sign that we have not yet developed our living thinking is when we feel our thoughts-words are enclosed within our private sphere and only have relevance for us or the person we happen to be communicating with at any given time. Of course we will generally experience it this way for most of our waking day, but through modern meditation we can greatly loosen this mask and sense how the boundaries to our thoughts are not so rigid and fixed. A really simple exercise is to pay attention to all the various details of our local environment as we go through the day and notice how many are related directly or indirectly to our spiritual activity. We can become more sensitive to how the states of our desk, our room, our house, etc. are impressed by our spiritual activity. We can also pay attention that it is only through our cognitive will that the perceptual environment (including our conscious inner states of being) changes throughout our day - we intend to get out of bed, to sit at our desk, to shift our gaze around, to get up and leave the house, etc. These are simply preliminary exercises we can do throughout the day to accustom ourselves for much deeper experiential insights into the expansive nature of our thought-life.

It is clear that most spiritualists will feel such things are beneath them, that they have already transcended such focus on the details of the 'dualistic realm', but the proof is in the pudding. The fact that most of them still act as if their thoughts-words are contained within the boundaries of their physical bodies, or only influencing the people hearing/reading them on a forum such as this one, means the pursuit of Oneness has fallen drastically short of its aim. It has gotten unnecessarily stuck at a stage which can surely be evolved further with patience and inner effort, along with reverence towards the detailed wys in which the Spirit manifests itself in the soul-life and outer nature. Then we really can begin to concretely experience this passage from PoF, in a way that inspires reverence and responsibility for the Thinking force which alights within us.

In thinking, we have that element given us which welds our separate individuality into one whole with the cosmos. In so far as we sense and feel (and also perceive), we are single beings; in so far as we think, we are the all-one being that pervades everything. This is the deeper meaning of our two-sided nature: We see coming into being in us a force complete and absolute in itself, a force which is universal but which we learn to know, not as it issues from the center of the world, but rather at a point in the periphery. Were we to know it at its source, we should understand the whole riddle of the universe the moment we became conscious. But since we stand at a point in the periphery, and find that our own existence is bounded by definite limits, we must explore the region which lies outside our own being with the help of thinking, which projects into us from the universal world existence.

It's hard for us to imagine now with modern habits of only consumptive, gratifying thinking, but there was a time when thinking was an expression of Love - it was sacrificial, devoted to all its inquiries, an immanent expression of loyalty and trust in the Spirit. I think anyone who examines Greek and medieval philosophy can sense this clearly. I haven noticed there is a modern tendency on all fronts for people to resist becoming a thinking student of anyone else. We are happy to admit there are masters, gurus, and other wise people that we can learn from who lived in remote times or in far away lands, but when it comes to people in our immediate surroundings who we interact with in real-time or something close to it, everyone is suddenly at the same level and any suggestion otherwise must automatically be oppressive. Of course such a notion doesn't hold up to the least bit of logical scrutiny, but nevertheless it is dogmatically held to. Why do we so desperately want this to be the case? What do we lose by orienting towards others as our teachers, at least long enough to fairly evaluate the teachings with our dispassionate reasoning? The intellectual mask can always be peeled off for those who have reached the point of asking such questions, since it is only the very surface of our personal soul-life which stands in the way of having them answered.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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Re: Fairy Tales for the Spirit

Post by LukeJTM »

Hi everyone,

First of all, I know it's a different thread I am posting this in, but I appreciate the variety of responses that were given on my post about the hard problems faced in modern philosophy and science.

Now, for this thread, I would like to add in something to this thread on "Fairy Tales for the Spirit" that I believe fits in with the discussion. Although this is not specifically about a folk tale, or mythology, it still has relevance to the heart of the discussion in my opinion.
I'm not sure if anyone here has read Owen Barfield's book "Romanticism Comes of Age", he wrote a fascinating chapter on how William Shakespeare's plays express or embody the Consciousness Soul; the experiences of isolation, loneliness, materialism, loss of faith in a spiritual world, and uncertainty, are embodied very poetically within these plays. The Consciousness Soul human lives 'in the dark' and no longer feels the older instinctive promptings from the spiritual world that people seemed to have in the past. Barfield uses Shakespeare's Hamlet as the main example, providing justification for this, and justification for his claim that Shakespeare's imagination was, unconsciously, a vessel for the Consciousness Soul era (which was something only just starting to unfold at the time). This, of course, also applies to other poets and artists of that time period.

I would like to share excerpts from the book because Barfield expresses it so excellently, and also because I am not as deeply familiar with Shakespeare as he seemed to be. If anyone reading this has an opinion to share, I'd be interested to hear.
[...] It is particularly interesting to observe how this mood of isolation in excessive consciousness, of individual uncertainty, of ‘will-lessness' is what gives the play of Hamlet its characteristic 'form'. So much so, that critics who are insensitive to this mood are often heard complaining that the play has no form, that as a work of art it is a failure. For example, the farewell scene between Ophelia and Laertes and between Polonius and Laertes is often criticised as a mere excrescence and the same has been said of the scene between Polonius and Reynaldo, in which the former directs Reynaldo to spy upon Laertes' doings in Paris by employing all sorts of exceedingly cunning pretences and devices. Such critics do not see how the reciprocal relations between Ophelia, Laertes, Polonius and Hamlet are carefully modulated variations of the central consciousness soul theme of isolation, uncertainty and distrust of all outside the self, including other selves.

From the mild but nevertheless slightly stinging retort made by Ophelia to Laertes : —
“ . . . . But, good my brother,
Do not, as some ungracious pastors do.
Show me the steep and thorny way to heaven ;
Whilst, like a puff’d and reckless libertine.
Himself the primrose path of dalliance treads.
And recks not his own rede.”


...to Laertes' stilted and even priggish sowing in his sister of distrust for Hamlet’s motives — thus revealing at the same time his own lack of confidence in her : —
“ . . . . Perhaps he loves you now ;
And now no soil nor cautel doth besmirch
The virtue of his will : but you must fear.
His greatness weighed, his will is not his own ;
..........
Fear it, Ophelia, fear it, my dear sister.
And keep you in the rear of your affection.
Out of the shot and danger of desire.
..........
Be wary, then ; best safety lies in fear. . ."


it is really remarkable how the whole speech is directed towards inculcating fear. Laertes is a “ Safety First ” man. From the careful watering of these seeds of misprision by old Polonius (“ Aye, springes to catch woodcocks ! ”) to Ophelia’s perhaps weak abandonment of her faith in Hamlet and too ready obedience to her father, the whole scale is played, until the diapason closes in the pathetic scene, not actually played on the stage but described so graphically by Ophelia herself, in which, after she has suddenly returned him all his letters and gifts, Hamlet comes to her in his wild and dishevelled state, seizes her hand and simply stares questioningly into her eyes :

“ He took me by the wrist, and held me hard ;
Then goes he to the length of all his arm ;
And, with his other hand thus o’er his brow.
He falls to such perusal of my face,
As he would draw it. Long stay’d he so ;

At last — a little shaking of mine arm,
And thrice his head thus waving up and down —
He rais’d a sigh so piteous and profound,
That it did seem to shatter all his bulk,
And end his being : that done, he lets me go :
And, with his head over his shoulder turn’d,
He seem’d to find his way without his eyes ;
For out o’ doors he went without their help,
And, to the last, bended their light on me.”


Superficially we know that Hamlet is asking himself — and the eyes — the question : Are you honest ? Have you simply been acting in obedience to Polonius’s commands ? Or are you after all only a heartless coquette ? But actually — and this comes out both in the quality of the poetry and in the whole structure of the play (the place , for instance, at which this speech occurs) he is asking much more than this. He is asking the question : Is there such a being as Ophelia at all ? A body no doubt ; I have hold of it; but is that island inhabited? He is being forced back into an unwelcome solipsism. He looks into her eyes and he asks the question that is asked, in this age, many thousands of times a day all over the Western world by people who cannot see the other being — the telephone question : “ Are you there ? ” And so we are led by this play through the whole gamut of uncertainty and mistrust, not excluding the central uncertainty of all — Hamlet’s mistrust of the revelation he receives from the other, the spirit-world from which, as from his fellow creatures, he is severed by his excessively insulating self- consciousness.

In the same way it has often been complained that the episode of the Players’ entrance and their long practice speeches made at Hamlet’s request is tacked on for no artistic reason and spoils the shapeliness of the play. Critics who make such a complaint have not noticed what the First Player’s speech is about. Let us consider it for a moment. Hamlet him self selects the particular passage to be spoken, from which we see that a dim recollection of the scene it conjures up is already running in his mind. But with what else has his mind been preoccupied ? With the practical result of uncertainty — indecision. He is come to the moment in his life at which his destiny calls on him to act, to act positively without excessive hesitation, without being held up and paralysed by an excess of sympathy with the other’s point of view (mere consciousness). The world of Denmark is out of joint and his action is needed to put it right. He does not want to. He wants to do nothing, to retire, to have, or say he is having, a nervous breakdown. Moreover, he himself is alive to this danger ; he knows well that alleged moral scruples may mask a mere supine inactivity — that “conscience" may “make cowards of us all.” He knows that he is in need of a little 'ruthlessness.’ Instinctively, therefore, he draws on the Player to put before him an imagination of the opposite state of mind to this of his own ; and the Player at his request recites that scene from the fall of Troy, in which Pyrrhus has to kill the aged and venerable Priam — as Hamlet knows he ought to kill his uncle. The verse describes in ranting terms how Pyrrhus seeks out Priam amid the smoking ruins and strikes at him, and how, though he strikes wide, the old man falls "with the whiff and wind of his fell sword.” And now comes the crux of the speech. Pyrrhus pauses. He is, so to speak, becalmed.

" . . . for lo ! his sword,
Which was declining on the milky head Of reverend Priam, seem’d i’ the air to stick :
So, as a painted tyrant, Pyrrhus stood ;
And like a neutral to his will and matter,
Did nothing.”


This is the picture with which it is so important that Hamlet should be confronted. For it is an imagination of his own condition. It is surely no accident that the last two words are given a line to themselves.

What does this mean for the form of the play? We are nearing the centre of the drama. And now there is put before Hamlet’s soul the very picture of the crucial moment of the consciousness soul. It is his chance. Lost in uncertainty, no longer moved by divine promptings or commandments from within, the dramatic question that stands before him is the question whether he will now choose to act and to act out of his own initiative ; not for any abstract reason or logical compulsion but freely imitating a picture set before him and known (“ What’s Hecuba to him or he to Hecuba ? ”) to be no more than a picture.

For myself at any rate this has long been one of the most dramatic moments in the whole play. In this moment, Hamlet is the Consciousness Soul. He is every soul that has lost all its bearings, all its motives and springs of action, its very raison d'être and which now has indeed to decide for itself the stark question “ To be or not to be.” The soul has to assert its own existence as a separate, self-moved, spiritual entity. Nobody else will do that for it. But it can find no reason for asserting itself and its own existence—no balance of pleasure over pain and so forth.—If it could, it would not be consciousness soul, and (what matters) it would not be free. Reason compels. Instead of reasons, therefore, it has pictures set before it — imaginations or examples, which it may imitate in freedom if it chooses. Such imaginations, mirroring its own true nature, are—other souls, the events of history, inspired works of art. In fact the play of Hamlet, properly understood, may itself function as such a picture. It may bring to the consciousness of its spectators in the age of the Consciousness Soul the drama of their own souls, just as the play in the play was used to “catch the conscience of the King.”

In order to make it perfectly clear what is meant, a further distinction must be drawn here. Hamlet has been called 'representative’ of mankind as a whole at this particular stage of their development. He is so in the sense that not only he, but every soul, in order to become a free, self-moved moral
agent, must first go through this purely negative experience — must be, 'becalmed.' Every soul is faced at some time with this problem of transition from obedience (whether the obedience was to instinct, to the Law, or to a categorical imperative) to free imitation. And the imitation will always be of some picture or example. But inasmuch as he is the representative, Hamlet is also more than a mere random sample of Consciousness Soul humanity. As the type and symbol of this experience, his crisis must represent the experience in its intensest possible form. And this is achieved by Shakespeare’s selecting as the particular picture which is set before Hamlet at the psychological moment, not the soul of another human being, not the Christ, not any symbolical glimpse of the glorious future open to his soul, but simply a stark imagination of the bare consciousness soul experience itself. Hamlet is shown, in the picture of Pyrrhus, the bare sequence. Action—paralysis or becalming—renewed initiative and action. And that is all. That is the only imagination that is put before him—his own experience. For there is certainly nothing very admirable or inspiring per se in the deed which Pyrrhus performs.

Involution, a sort of Chinese box structure, is thus characteristic of the whole form of this play. What is its central point, the crisis in the middle of the third or middle act ? It is the play within the Play ; and the plot of this play within the Play recapitulates in brief the story on which the Play itself turns. And as if this were not enough, this play within the Play is itself preceded by a Dumb Show (the play within the play within the Play) which recapitulates the same plot more briefly still. I am not concerned to suggest that Shakespeare was fully aware of all he was doing, but there is no question that the form of Hamlet, taking the word 'form' here in quite an obvious, external sense, is able to cast an almost magical spell—especially on the young. It induces a sort of 'ecstasis' — a sense of looking on at ourselves in the same moment.

What does Hamlet himself do at this crisis of his life? He fails. He does not imitate the imagination. The Player’s speech goes on : —
“But, as we often see, against some storm,
A silence in the heavens, the rack stand still.
The bold winds speechless, and the orb below
As hush as death, anon the dreadful thunder
Doth rend the region ; so, after Pyrrhus’ pause,
Aroused vengeance sets him new a-work ;
And never did the Cyclops’ hammers fall
On Mars’s armour, forg’d for proof eteme,
With less remorse, than Pyrrhus’ bleeding sword
Now falls on Priam.”


The words “with less remorse" should be especially noted. But, unlike Pyrrhus, Hamlet does not take any action. He only curses himself for not doing so. He needs something to drive him to action. He needs a violent force of external circumstances, such as was provided by the King’s treacherous plot through Rosenkrantz and Guildenstem, the pirates’ attack on his ship, and again at the very end of the play.
Hear his own account of some of the things that happened on the voyage to England : —

"Up from my cabin,
My sea-gown scarf’d about me, in the dark Grop’d I to find out them , had my desire ;
Finger’d their packet ; and in fine withdrew
To mine own room again , making so bold,
My fears forgetting manners, to unseal
Their grand commission ; where I found, Horatio,
O royal knavery ! an exact command, —
Larded with many several sorts of reasons.
Importing Denmark’s health and England’s too.
With, ho, such bugs and goblins in my life.
That, in the supervise, no leisure bated.
No, not to stay the grinding of the axe,
My head should be struck oft.
Being thus be-netted round with villainies, —
Ere I could make a prologue to my brains
They had begun the play — I sat me down.
Devis'd a new commission, wrote it fair . . .

I had my father's signet in my purse,
Which was the model of that Danish seal ;
Folded the writ up in form of the other ;
Subscrib'd it ; gave 't the impression, plac'd it safely.
The changeling never known. Now the next day
Was our sea-fight ; and what to this was sequent
Thou know’ st already."


The sea-fight he had already described in a letter : —

"Ere we were two days old at sea, a pirate of very warlike appointment gave us chase. Finding ourselves too slow of sail, we put on a compelled valour ; in the grapple I boarded them ; on the instant they got clear of our ship, so I alone became their prisoner . . ."

Promptitude, courage, startling initiative, and after it is all over a curt, pungent report of the incident—a masterpiece, as Coleridge has pointed out, of coherent brevity! Here is the amateur introvert of the Elsinore soliloquies in rather a different light! Certainly he is not the man to set right a disjointed world by obeying the summons of a purely spiritual intuition ; but let someone else 'begin the play' ; demand of him a compell'd valour ; put him to sea with the toughest definite job to do and in the tightest possible corner you can think of— and you get the Nelson touch.

Perhaps enough has now been said to explain the difference between saying, on the one hand, that 'uncertainty' or 'mistrust' is the theme of Hamlet and, on the other, that it is a representation of the consciousness soul. But it is by no means all that could be said. There are many important aspects and qualities of the play which have not been touched.
A recent reviewer in Punch concluded his criticism by recounting, apparently with some self-approval, that he could not say how the final scenes of the performance under notice had been played, since he had followed his usual practice of leaving before the gravediggers’ scene, thus escaping the vulgar ranting about death and the melodramatic claptrap which mar the conclusion of this otherwise fine play. This critic was, I think, an exceptionally insensitive one. Others do at least accept the gravediggers and the pile of corpses at the end as an integral part of the play, even if without quite knowing why. The truth is, of course, that Hamlet without the gravediggers, without the whole atmosphere of death and corruption which permeates the play even into the very metaphors which the poet selects, and of which the scene in the graveyard is not more than a fitting climax— Hamlet without all this is only a little less inconceivable than Hamlet without the Prince of Denmark.

Our immediate and quite unsophisticated perception is enough to tell us that this is so. But it is quite another matter when we attempt to explain why. And vagaries such as those of the Punch critic suggest that we are reaching a stage when attempts will have to be made to explain why. For, crude as such criticism may be, we must at least accept this about it, that it is there. It is written, and it is read. The time may come therefore when it will have to be answered.
The objection that the gravediggers' conversation, Hamlet’s soliloquy over Yorick’s skull, and the fight in the grave are mere sensations, introduced without reference either to the plot or to the inner psychological development of the play, is at first sight plausible. Certainly they cannot be derived from the 'uncertainty' theme and, as long as we see no further than that they will also be felt to mar the unity of the play. But, as has already been pointed out, to say that Hamlet is a representation of the consciousness soul is to say very much more than that it is built up on the theme of 'uncertainty’ or 'diffidence.’ That is only one aspect of the consciousness soul.
Last edited by LukeJTM on Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
LukeJTM
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Re: Fairy Tales for the Spirit

Post by LukeJTM »

(Continuation of the above)
From other of (Rudolf) Steiner’s numerous writings (and this time I find myself at a loss for specific quotation) it can be seen how intimately related is the consciousness soul to the experience, and especially the imaginative experience, of death. Of the many startlingly obvious truths to which Steiner was nevertheless alone in drawing attention, there is none more paramount to the whole of human experience than the truth that consciousness, based as it is on a perpetual wastage of the nervous and sensory tissues, is a direct concomitant of— death. Other Central European psychologists have spent their lives indicating out of a muddled sort of empiricism that there is some vague connection between the unconscious life of the soul and the metabolism of the body. Steiner, beginning his investigations before psycho-analysis was heard of, had set in a beautifully clear light before he died the truth that— reflected physically in the cerebro- spinal system and the metabolism—Consciousness and Life stand at dead opposite poles.[...] to grasp the nature of this conscious principle of the human being is to perceive at the same time, and now not merely aesthetically but with the intellect too, how perfectly appropriate all the gruesomeness in Hamlet is, how even the flavour of rant and exaggeration (which was obviously imparted deliberately by Shakespeare) is appropriate, as delicately stressing the fact that it is the imaginative experience which is pointed to. Regarded as an event, the fight in the grave is, of course, preposterous. It is neither actually possible nor (what is twice as important) artistically convincing. As an imagination, however, it is colossal. The very stage direction, the laconic “leaps into the grave” has an electrifying effect on a reader, coming precisely where it does in the play.

It is interesting in this last respect to contrast Faust with Hamlet. Nothing more opposite could well be conceived. Where Hamlet has death in every line, Faust has life in every line. From the wonderful moment of the outburst of the Easter hymn near the beginning of Part I to the very end of the Second Part, we are constantly being overwhelmed, positively submerged in deep floods of life. And the two characters are a no less perfect contrast than the plays. They are not so much opposed to one another as complementary. They are like Jack Sprat and his wife ; each lacks all the qualities which the other possesses, and possesses all the qualities which the other lacks. Both together would make a whole man.

It is, for instance, nowhere indicated that Faust found any difficulty in asserting himself. This seems to have come to him as naturally as breathing. He soars freely above it. His problem, which he only succeeds in mastering near the end of the Second Part (when he gives way to the old couple) is to become able to do something which Hamlet simply cannot help doing with every other word he speaks — that is, to display a piece of ordinary generosity. We again see how much wider a thing these characters are than any theory of them. How is this open, generous quality in Hamlet’s nature related to the main thread of his character ? The very acuteness of Hamlet’s consciousness of his surroundings has this effect too, that he lives much in them. He is interested in the people he meets, critical and penetrative of their absurdities and dishonesties, but generally speaking in a kindly way. Thus, the nothingness of his own soul has its good side. Above all, he is interested in people for their own sakes and not with any conscious eye to their possible part in his own destiny. When they come in, we feel he is glad to see them.
Whereas the mood and manner in which Faust’s character is drawn leave the impression of its being doubtful whether—when not under the influence of infatuation—he is ever really glad to see anyone, except possibly his own face in a mirror. Of course it is in a way absurd to react to Faust personally in this way. But, as far as it goes, the comparison stands and is, I think, 'significant.’

Again—and this takes us still further away from the ‘uncertainty’ motif—Hamlet seems to possess in a marked degree the virtue of constancy. It is the Saturn virtue. Somehow through all Hamlet’s weakness we feel the bracing, astringent power of that death-nature which permeates the consciousness soul. This is really a deep meditation. Life as such, whether it be the life of an organism or the biography of a human being—or even perhaps the life of a Society—always has the metamorphic tendency. Its nature is to keep passing into ever new forms, to divide and again to subdivide. It is a good thing to be “lebendig,” ("lively") but a living creature is held together, kept from mere riotous multiplication, only by its death force. It is the skeleton which binds the body together and keeps it on the earth. It is the force which we acquire from having, or having had, a skeleton which makes constancy and stability possible even in the spirit.

It would be possible to continue making cursory observations of this kind, but they lack force unless each can be traced separately from the roots of the play in the same way as has been attempted in the case of that aspect of the consciousness soul’s manifestation which can be called 'uncertainty.' For it is not that it is incorrect to say that the theme of uncertainty is there, but only that it is incomplete. If it were said that this is the theme of Hamlet , it would be both incorrect and cramping to the imagination. For there are all these other themes as well. That is the difference between a work of literature which has form and one which merely has doctrine. It is the difference between myth and allegory. A doctrine or a 'message' in a work of art only says one thing ; and when the thing is said, it is said. So too, a being who is the allegorical personification of, say, 'Courage,' has only one quality —courage ; only one function — to be brave. Whereas the 'Nemean Lion' or the mythical figure of Hercules, though they mean that, mean very many other things too. Thus, with a play such as Hamlet , which rises to the imaginative level of a Greek myth, criticism which treats it as mere allegory or mere doctrine will maim the play and cramp the reader’s appreciation. Whereas criticism which treats it as myth, criticism which sees underlying its form not a theoretical but a spiritual unity, will be in a position to illuminate all the meanings which it contains, instead of only one, and will enable us to trace them out more distinctly, if we want to.
Such criticism may itself rise to the level of an art. For it will each time come back from its journeys out into the particular aspects of the myth to the centre again, returning as in a dance to the underlying spiritual unity and bringing light from without to assist in raising the hidden centre to consciousness. And, in looking at a work of art, it is precisely when we are aware of having enjoyed such an interior dance that we know we are in the presence of 'form.’ Only the unity to which we return must be, however dimly apprehended, not an idea but a spiritual being.
A spiritual being? Let me add in conclusion that the understanding of the nature of the three 'Souls’ is immeasurably deepened when they are related to the three mysterious female figures, Philia, Astrid, and Luna, who appear in Steiner’s Mystery Plays. In particular the figure of Luna, together with the fourth figure, 'the other Philia,' is important for an understanding of the consciousness soul. He is especially careful to affirm of these three characters that they are not mere symbolic or allegorical figures but actual individual beings. How can a principle of the human, being, a stage, so to speak, in the development of his consciousness be at the same time a Being? This is an exceedingly difficult thought and I do not profess to be able to think it through, though I believe there must be a sense in which it is true. I come nearest, however, to being able to understand it along such lines of thought as I have attempted to put forward here.
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Federica
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Re: Fairy Tales for the Spirit

Post by Federica »

LukeJTM wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:19 pm Hi everyone,

First of all, I know it's a different thread I am posting this in, but I appreciate the variety of responses that were given on my post about the hard problems faced in modern philosophy and science.

Now, for this thread, I would like to add in something to this thread on "Fairy Tales for the Spirit" that I believe fits in with the discussion. Although this is not specifically about a folk tale, or mythology, it still has relevance to the heart of the discussion in my opinion.
I'm not sure if anyone here has read Owen Barfield's book "Romanticism Comes of Age", he wrote a fascinating chapter on how William Shakespeare's plays express or embody the Consciousness Soul; the experiences of isolation, loneliness, materialism, loss of faith in a spiritual world, and uncertainty, are embodied very poetically within these plays. The Consciousness Soul human lives 'in the dark' and no longer feels the older instinctive promptings from the spiritual world that people seemed to have in the past. Barfield uses Shakespeare's Hamlet as the main example, providing justification for this, and justification for his claim that Shakespeare's imagination was, unconsciously, a vessel for the Consciousness Soul era (which was something only just starting to unfold at the time). This, of course, also applies to other poets and artists of that time period.

I would like to share excerpts from the book because Barfield expresses it so excellently, and also because I am not as deeply familiar with Shakespeare as he seemed to be. If anyone reading this has an opinion to share, I'd be interested to hear.


Hi Luke,

Thank you for bringing these insightful reflections to the forum!
I unfortunately know very little of Barfield's works. For now I only started reading Saving the appearances, one of Ashvin’s recommended books to develop a living understanding of reality. I realize the influence of Barfield’s work in the United Kingdom is probably more significant than the influence a thinker such as Bergson, or Teilhard de Chardin, might have had in France, for instance. Similarly, other thinkers of the XXth century who received and propagated in other nations some of the waves of living cognition catalyzed and disseminated by Steiner from Central Europe, might have had smaller and more confidential spreading, compared to Barfield's in the UK. So I’m glad that those who are located there, as I noticed you are, can access and benefit from that important resource.


I am sure there are many levels at which Barfield’s reading of Hamlet, in comparison to Goethe’s Faust, interplays with our forum threads, and with the evolution of cognition at large. A few things that resonate with me in particular:


The will, or the lack thereof, is the weak link in our present-day constitution, or at least this is my current sense of what the main stumbling blocks is, on the path of living thinking, based on both my direct experience and external observations also. Coincidentally, I was recently sharing this same thought with reference to the ongoing discussion on the other thread. As you say, Barfield's reading of Hamlet has relevance to the heart of the current forum discussions.

Federica wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:30 pm The work to be done is actually the biggest stumbling block on the path, I am realizing. It's bigger than abstraction, bigger than pride.

Through the passages Barfield reports, we feel for Hamlet, as he feels like Pyrrhus, plagued by similar inertia:

“So, as a painted tyrant, Pyrrhus stood ;
And like a neutral to his will and matter,
Did nothing


and we can ponder how difficult it is to move forward from that stance rooted in polarized consciousness, and expressed as paralyzing uncertainty, indecision, lack of action. As you have referred:

Barfield wrote:He (Hamlet) wants to do nothing, to retire, to have, or say he is having, a nervous breakdown. Moreover, he himself is alive to this danger ; he knows well that alleged moral scruples may mask a mere supine inactivity — that “conscience" may “make cowards of us all.” He knows that he is in need of a little 'ruthlessness.’

And we can measure how often we express that same standpoint in our everyday approach to living philosophy. The solipsism that inhabits Hamlet, victim of an “excessively insulating self-consciousness"...

Barfield wrote:He (Hamlet) is asking the question : Is there such a being as Ophelia at all ? A body no doubt ; I have hold of it; but is that island inhabited? He is being forced back into an unwelcome solipsism. He looks into her eyes and he asks the question that is asked, in this age, many thousands of times a day all over the Western world by people who cannot see the other being — the telephone question : “ Are you there ? ”

...that same solipsism has been evoked by Cleric a few days ago from another entry point, with reference to the mystic reductionist tendency of searching abstract unity with the One Consciousness plaguing our present-day spirituality:

Cleric K wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:36 pm If we neglect this, we end up in a kind of solipsistic view. It’s of course not explicitly solipsistic but it becomes implicitly so because we assume that our human consciousness (even if ‘non-dually realized’) already coincides with the so-called pure consciousness. This makes us feel that our intuitive sense for what consciousness and reality are, is already the fundamental perspective and all that’s left is to expand it and fill the gaps within it. Such a position basically puts the lid on our development.

In short, the main thought your post evokes for me is how relevant for today's man Hamlet's tragedy still is, and how stationary we have been in this respect, over the last few centuries.
Another thing that comes to mind, in connection with the weakness of the will, is the link between consciousness and willed action constituted by the physical body, its movement, and training, which Steiner also spoke of. The Will plays out in the physical world through physical action, and has to be supported by a functional enough physical body. Something that I believe is often neglected, often among the philosophically and mystically oriented individuals. Maybe a topic for another time.
This is the goal towards which the sixth age of humanity will strive: the popularization of occult truth on a wide scale. That's the mission of this age and the society that unites spiritually has the task of bringing this occult truth to life everywhere and applying it directly. That's exactly what our age is missing.
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AshvinP
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Re: Fairy Tales for the Spirit

Post by AshvinP »

LukeJTM wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:19 pm Hi everyone,

First of all, I know it's a different thread I am posting this in, but I appreciate the variety of responses that were given on my post about the hard problems faced in modern philosophy and science.

Now, for this thread, I would like to add in something to this thread on "Fairy Tales for the Spirit" that I believe fits in with the discussion. Although this is not specifically about a folk tale, or mythology, it still has relevance to the heart of the discussion in my opinion.
I'm not sure if anyone here has read Owen Barfield's book "Romanticism Comes of Age", he wrote a fascinating chapter on how William Shakespeare's plays express or embody the Consciousness Soul; the experiences of isolation, loneliness, materialism, loss of faith in a spiritual world, and uncertainty, are embodied very poetically within these plays. The Consciousness Soul human lives 'in the dark' and no longer feels the older instinctive promptings from the spiritual world that people seemed to have in the past. Barfield uses Shakespeare's Hamlet as the main example, providing justification for this, and justification for his claim that Shakespeare's imagination was, unconsciously, a vessel for the Consciousness Soul era (which was something only just starting to unfold at the time). This, of course, also applies to other poets and artists of that time period.

I would like to share excerpts from the book because Barfield expresses it so excellently, and also because I am not as deeply familiar with Shakespeare as he seemed to be. If anyone reading this has an opinion to share, I'd be interested to hear.

Luke, thanks for sharing this nuanced evaluation from Barfield. I had not read Romanticism Comes of Age yet. It is a refreshing shift from what passes as 'knowledge' and 'wisdom' these days - "the whole world is a fairy tale imagined by consciousness" :)

I am also reminded of another quote from Barfield's other book, History, Guilt, and Habit, which certainly speaks to man's "I" feeling more and more hopelessly encapsulated within the early stages of the consciousness soul.

Owen Barfield (1950) wrote:There are two things that are noticeable about the modern psychology... the first is that the root, the subconscious root, of schizophrenia is increasingly being traced to the experience of what I will for the moment call "cut-offness". The second is that the experience is increasingly being regarded, not as one that is peculiar to the patient, but in a greater or less degree as one that is the predicament of humanity, or certainly Western humanity, as a whole.
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The clinically schizoid are simply the ones who are becoming most sharply aware of it. Thus, they speak of the personality, or the self, as being isolated, encapsulated, excluded, estranged, alienated. There are many different ways of putting it. But what the self of each of us feels isolated from, cut off from, by its encapsulation in the nakedly physical reality presented to it by the common sense of contemporary culture, is precisely its own existential source [the 'true Self'].

Sin and Madness, by Dr. Shirley Sugerman... argues, convincingly to my mind, that what is now conceived and felt as insanity can only be properly understood as the evolutionary metamorphosis of what was formerly conceived and felt as sin.
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But can there by sin without guilt? Paul Ricouer, in his book The Symbolism of Evil, observes, rightly I think, that a feeling of guilt is the fundamental experience of sin. If so, how can this contemporary madness, from which there is evidence that we all suffer, but about which we certainly do not feel guilty, have anything to do with sin? Perhaps because, although we do not feel guilty about the sin, we do feel guilty because of it.
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There is atmosphere of guilt. Take for instance the issue of racialism, the relation between the advanced and the so-called "backward nations", or between white and colored... what was until recently called "the white man's burden" was a burden of responsibility, not of guilt.
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People seem almost to go out of their way to find things to feel guilty about, or to encourage others to feel guilty about. I can think of two reasons in particular why it is bad... such confused feelings of guilt tend to beget paralysis rather than energy... when they do not beget paralysis, feelings of guilt tend to turn rather easily into feelings of hatred and contempt. We may feel a bit guilty ourselves, but we are very sure that a whole lot of other people are much more guilty, and probably ought to be destroyed.
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And just this darker side to the experience of guilt seems to be even more evident when the experience is collective rather than when it is the individual. 'All are responsible for all', said Alyosha in The Brothers Karamazov. A noble, a truly human sentiment - perhaps the only absolutely human sentiment there is... It is the irritation of guilt that turns it into the impulse to compel, into a determination to use every kind of violence, every device of indoctrination, in order to enforce on all a systematic equality that must entail a mechanical and inhuman uniformity.

And we clearly see how much more pronounced this trend has become in the last 70 years since Barfield wrote that. Treating this modern isolation, estrangement, and guilt as a metamorphosis of what was previously felt as sin makes a lot of sense, because it is only we who keep ourselves imprisoned in the consciousness soul by failing to devote our thinking activity to high spiritual ideals. If even a fraction of that thinking power which has gone into building up the materialistic super-structure we are all so addicted to now was redirected to inner spiritual aims, then humanity would be well on the way to incarnating the Spirit Self (or Holy Spirit) who brings us concrete knowledge of our eternal individuality across incarnations (rather than our personality enclosed in a single incarnation).
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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