Fairy Tales for the Spirit

[Federica]

Speaking of abstract thoughts and the limits of our intellectual wingspan, I have come across this post by Cleric, where a very useful analogy illustrates the nature of that constraint in relation to the idea of Time. Eugene, you probably read it back then, and might even remember it, but maybe you relate differently to those ideas today? It would be interesting to know if the different way you write today (this is so clear reading the old posts in general) corresponds to an equally different reading of posts like this one?

There's no longer movement of our thinking-cathode ray in the intellectual sense. Instead it is like the cathode ray expands from a ray into a cone and energizes the whole panorama all at once. Now once again there's movement and dynamics but they are not that of the intellectual cathode ray - the latter is completely expanded and monolithic. Yet the monolithic flow itself has a deeper texture which is in constant metamorphosis. Initially we must learn to simply behold the panorama, even though it seems quite incomprehensible. But gradually we find new degrees of freedom of our spiritual activity, which are normally hidden behind the movement of our ordinary thinking cathode ray. I can approximately describe this as a kind of spiritual steering. Higher cognition is in a sense technically simpler than the intellectual, even though meaningfully richer. We don't need to hold elements in our working memory and manipulate them. Instead, our working memory has expanded as an Imaginative panorama which is simply there, there's no need to support it mechanically through refreshing. We only need to support our centered, expanded and monolithic thought-ray (that is, avoid reverting to the cathode ray erratic movement of the intellect) and smoothly steer within the higher order landscape.

Yes, this is a good analogy of how intuitive cognition functions and grasps the wholeness at once with all its constant metamorphosis and structure, as opposed to intellectual cognition that breaks the world into pieces and, like a moving ray, "scans" it one piece at a time. That is why it is only the intuitive cognition (once it becomes sufficiently developed) that can reach to oneness.

Yes, and do you include in the expansive reach of intuitive cognition a qualitative scale up that goes beyond the mere quantitative amplification of processing power?
This comes down to what Ashvin refers to as the changing quality of our understanding (not word for word, I haven't found the exact quote), and that we should not imagine that we already have an idea of how our cognition would expand, along which lines. So when we accept and make the possibility of qualitative expansion concrete - as opposed to only an easy 'yes-of-course' - this practically means that we unmask our 'natural' preference for having a rough plan of how the development would go, and accept to give up the comfort that comes with the plan, making space for the humility of maybe having to start from scratch, maybe not having a cue how the whole process would be felt, thought, and experienced.

[Stranger]

Yes, and do you include in the expansive reach of intuitive cognition a qualitative scale up that goes beyond the mere quantitative amplification of processing power?

In phenomenological idealism everything is by nature qualitative, even including quantitative and abstract. Any ideas, even most quantitative and abstract, are still qualia of thinking-experience.

[AshvinP]

Great idea for a new thread, Ashvin!
In my culture there’s a popular book for kids, called Stories of Greece and the Barbarians. It’s a collection of selected tales based on the myths of ancient Greece. Not sure they can be considered fairy tales, and what spiritual themes can be identified, but children have been told these stories as ‘fairy tales’ for generations. I can report the one that made the biggest impression on me, and remained the most memorable. It’s the story of the family of Menelaus. It goes as follows. In very ancient times, in a very ancient country, there were two brothers, one called Thyestes, and the other, who had married the daughter of a king, was called Atreus. Atreus and Thyestes hated each other to death. Thyestes had stolen king Atreus’ wife and Atreus had chased his traitorous brother away. Thyestes was roaming around without home and without family. But this was not enough for Atreus. He was consumed by hatred, he wanted a cruel revenge. The three children of Thyestes were living in Atreus’ palace, peacefully growing up with Atreus’ own children, Agamennon and Menelaus, and unaware of all the hatred. One day, seeing the five kids playing together, Atreus had a ferocious thought. The thought stayed with him. He wanted Thyestes to eat the flesh of his own children. He had two of them killed by a guard and had his brother called back to the palace, with the message that the king wanted to finally make peace with him. Thyestes believed it. In the meantime, Atreus cut into pieces the children’s bodies and set up a banquet. At the head of the table, he was cutting and serving the human flesh to the many guests. Thyestes was eating like everyone else, glad that peace had been finally made. Then, suddenly, he looked at his brother’s face and saw an atrocious smile. His blood freezed in his veins. He understood everything. He threw himself to the ground, spitting, hurling terrible cries. Then he stood up, still screaming, quit the palace, quit town, and wandered and wandered around, hating his brother to death. Atreus, however, was unsatisfied and miserable. The invisible fire of hatred that grows with revenge, and that only love can extinguish, was consuming him. So he captured and imprisoned his brother. He waited until the only one of Thyestes' sons whom he hadn’t killed, Egystus, was strong and vigorous enough. Egystus didn't know who his father was. Atreus called him and asked him to kill the imprisoned Thyestes, and to report back to him at the temple upon accomplishment of the mission. So Egystus picked up his most beautiful sword, a gift from his mother, and went to the prison. There he found Thyestes chained, crouched in a corner, his eyes burning with rage. But as soon as he saw the sword, Thyestes' eyes changed and the rage vanished. He asked: “Who are you? What is this sword?” Egystus answered: ”My mother gave me this sword. It’s a good sword, you will see!” “And who gave her the sword?” “My father did, whom I have never met.” “This is my sword, I am your father! Look at the hilt, a pomegranate flower is engraved there. Atreus wants you to kill your father, and he will then kill you too! Come to me Egystus, my son, let me look at you, let me touch you, and let us find out an appropriate revenge!” In that moment Egystus understood many things. He liberated his father, grabbed the sword, ran to the temple, came close to Atreus as if he was about to speak, amd thrust the sword into his heart and killed him. He then looked for his cousins, Agamennon and Menelaus, to kill them too, but he couldn’t find them. They were hiding, with the help of a guard who loved the two princes, and so they survived.

Wow, that's a grim one, Federica . Thanks for sharing! The Greek myths are always interesting and complex. Even their Divinities were clothed in very human qualities (for good esoteric reason).

The resentful-revengeful dynamic between the brothers of course reminds of Abel and Cain, where the latter became resentful of the former due to God's favoring Abel's sacrificial offering, so Cain proceeds to murder him. Legend has it that the sons of Seth (the son after Abel) represent the stream of the priesthood, which through the mysteries remained intuitively connected with the spiritual worlds and continued to foster religious impulses, and the sons of Cain represent the stream of the craftsmen, through which art and technology and outer civilization developed. These two streams then meet again in Christ incarnate, who as usual bridges the polarity and provides the potential to resolve the bitter enmity through higher, Love-imbued cognition.

The chopping of the children into pieces also reminds of Osiris, who was dismembered and scattered across the Earth (and was later rescued/restored by his son, Horus). I think the Greeks also had a similar myth with Dionysius the Elder. Esoterically that symbolizes the death of ancient spiritual sight so the individual thinking soul could emerge. Perhaps there is something similar symbolized in this myth, since the higher modes of cognition in their innocent spiritual state still flow through young children. I'm not sure about that. Of course there are probably many more deeper layers of meaning as well. I was curious as to what the pomegranate flower may relate to. A quick Google search revealed the following:

The pomegranate foremost stands for fertility, a notion that dates back to Greek mythology where it is associated with the story of Persephone who is taken by Hades to the underworld. The multiple seeds stand for “rebirth”, in this case her return to her mother to begin the spring season. In many religions, it is not unusual for them to be gifted to women hopeful to become pregnant where they believe that a taste of the sweet seeds will encourage a seed to be planted of her own. In the Christian world, the fruit is associated with the Virgin Mary as meaning “eternal life” as well as a reference to Doom’s Day. Weddings, baptisms and birthday are typical occasions where the pomegranate makes an appearance during the celebration as a drink, food or present to the guest of honor(s).

[Federica]

Wow, that's a grim one, Federica . Thanks for sharing! The Greek myths are always interesting and complex. Even their Divinities were clothed in very human qualities (for good esoteric reason).

The resentful-revengeful dynamic between the brothers of course reminds of Abel and Cain, where the latter became resentful of the former due to God's favoring Abel's sacrificial offering, so Cain proceeds to murder him. Legend has it that the sons of Seth (the son after Abel) represent the stream of the priesthood, which through the mysteries remained intuitively connected with the spiritual worlds and continued to foster religious impulses, and the sons of Cain represent the stream of the craftsmen, through which art and technology and outer civilization developed. These two streams then meet again in Christ incarnate, who as usual bridges the polarity and provides the potential to resolve the bitter enmity through higher, Love-imbued cognition.

The chopping of the children into pieces also reminds of Osiris, who was dismembered and scattered across the Earth (and was later rescued/restored by his son, Horus). I think the Greeks also had a similar myth with Dionysius the Elder. Esoterically that symbolizes the death of ancient spiritual sight so the individual thinking soul could emerge. Perhaps there is something similar symbolized in this myth, since the higher modes of cognition in their innocent spiritual state still flow through young children. I'm not sure about that. Of course there are probably many more deeper layers of meaning as well. I was curious as to what the pomegranate flower may relate to. A quick Google search revealed the following:

The pomegranate foremost stands for fertility, a notion that dates back to Greek mythology where it is associated with the story of Persephone who is taken by Hades to the underworld. The multiple seeds stand for “rebirth”, in this case her return to her mother to begin the spring season. In many religions, it is not unusual for them to be gifted to women hopeful to become pregnant where they believe that a taste of the sweet seeds will encourage a seed to be planted of her own. In the Christian world, the fruit is associated with the Virgin Mary as meaning “eternal life” as well as a reference to Doom’s Day. Weddings, baptisms and birthday are typical occasions where the pomegranate makes an appearance during the celebration as a drink, food or present to the guest of honor(s).

Thank you for the comments, Ashvin! Yes, it's pretty terrifying. I still remember how it felt the first time I heard it, trying to come to terms with, or grasp, those dark, unfathomable magnitudes of hatred.
You and Cleric often say that the scriptures can be entirely re-read as esoteric word, and it's so insightful to attempt to do the same with the myths. Lots of knowledge and imagination would be necessary, I feel I can barely start to scratch the surface, but I'm still grateful for the minuscule (for me) openings that even a short exchange like this one can suggest.

[AshvinP]

Wow, that's a grim one, Federica . Thanks for sharing! The Greek myths are always interesting and complex. Even their Divinities were clothed in very human qualities (for good esoteric reason).

The resentful-revengeful dynamic between the brothers of course reminds of Abel and Cain, where the latter became resentful of the former due to God's favoring Abel's sacrificial offering, so Cain proceeds to murder him. Legend has it that the sons of Seth (the son after Abel) represent the stream of the priesthood, which through the mysteries remained intuitively connected with the spiritual worlds and continued to foster religious impulses, and the sons of Cain represent the stream of the craftsmen, through which art and technology and outer civilization developed. These two streams then meet again in Christ incarnate, who as usual bridges the polarity and provides the potential to resolve the bitter enmity through higher, Love-imbued cognition.

The chopping of the children into pieces also reminds of Osiris, who was dismembered and scattered across the Earth (and was later rescued/restored by his son, Horus). I think the Greeks also had a similar myth with Dionysius the Elder. Esoterically that symbolizes the death of ancient spiritual sight so the individual thinking soul could emerge. Perhaps there is something similar symbolized in this myth, since the higher modes of cognition in their innocent spiritual state still flow through young children. I'm not sure about that. Of course there are probably many more deeper layers of meaning as well. I was curious as to what the pomegranate flower may relate to. A quick Google search revealed the following:

The pomegranate foremost stands for fertility, a notion that dates back to Greek mythology where it is associated with the story of Persephone who is taken by Hades to the underworld. The multiple seeds stand for “rebirth”, in this case her return to her mother to begin the spring season. In many religions, it is not unusual for them to be gifted to women hopeful to become pregnant where they believe that a taste of the sweet seeds will encourage a seed to be planted of her own. In the Christian world, the fruit is associated with the Virgin Mary as meaning “eternal life” as well as a reference to Doom’s Day. Weddings, baptisms and birthday are typical occasions where the pomegranate makes an appearance during the celebration as a drink, food or present to the guest of honor(s).

Thank you for the comments, Ashvin! Yes, it's pretty terrifying. I still remember how it felt the first time I heard it, trying to come to terms with, or grasp, those dark, unfathomable magnitudes of hatred.
You and Cleric often say that the scriptures can be entirely re-read as esoteric word, and it's so insightful to attempt to do the same with the myths. Lots of knowledge and imagination would be necessary, I feel I can barely start to scratch the surface, but I'm still grateful for the minuscule (for me) openings that even a short exchange like this one can suggest.

I agree, Federica, it is very rewarding to revisit, with our living thinking, these amazing heritages from whence our civilization arose. As people begin to explicitly or implicitly discern the spiritual depth structure of the human organism, and its relation to the unfolding Earthly and Cosmic rhythms, they will also discern how much profound truth and wisdom was embedded in these myths/scriptures. They all point to intimate realities which are still with us, modulating our cognitive soul-life and therefore our life experiences. Since you shared an ancient Greek myth, I want to share a passage from Steiner which can help orient us towards their complexities:

Hence in Greco-Latin times we have the remarkable phenomenon that mankind seems to be thrown upon its own resources, seems to be self-sufficient. There has been no epoch of civilisation since the Atlantean catastrophe during which man was thrown so entirely on his own resources, or in which so much depended upon his expressing his own peculiar self as in the Greco-Latin time. Hence we see too how everything in this epoch tends to bring to expression in its purest form the human individuality. It could be said that this was so because the guiding hierarchies slackened the reins, because at this time men were most left to themselves.
...
We said yesterday that in contradistinction to conditions prevailing in previous epochs — in the Persian and the Egypto-Chaldean epochs — during the Greco-Latin culture the reins of spiritual guidance from above were less tightly drawn. That the Greeks were conscious of this somewhat freer relationship between the divine Spirits and men is quite clear from the way in which they depicted their gods, giving them thoroughly human traits, one might even say human frailties, human passions, human sympathies and antipathies. From this we can infer that they knew that, just as human beings on the physical plane have to strive to make progress, the gods immediately above them do the same thing—they strive to transcend such qualities as they have. In fact, compared with the gods of Egypt or Persia, the Greek gods needed so much to make progress in their own evolution that they could not bother themselves much about men! Hence came that standing-upon-its-own-feet of Greek civilisation which is so truly human. The bond between gods and men was looser than ever before. It was just because they were aware of this that the Greeks could depict their gods as so human.

Here we find from another angle why the often maligned 'Lucifer impulse' towards 'dualistic perception-cognition' is a primary reason we can speak of higher human development in culture, which provides a foundation for our striving towards reunion with the spirit worlds in freedom. We easily forget these days how our ancestors had to struggle with the necessities of nature, constantly concerned about famines and droughts, or who would murder, rape, or pillage from them. There were no things such as universal human rights and dignity, equality before the law, free speech and exercise of religion, etc. We may imagine people always had the time and capacity to meditate in relative peace and solitude like we do now, keeping the last few thousand years of cultural progress in the blind spot. It's interesting to also notice how, what was portrayed as a rather gruesome act of dismemberment in ancient Egyptian and Greco-Latin myths - the weaning off of ancient clairvoyance - was actively sought in the ancient Hebrew stream. The worship of idols was prohibited, the mixing in with other races and nations, and the intellectual faculty which could precisely analyze in terms of number, weight, and measure was cultivated. 

"You shall do no injustice in judgment, in measurement of length, weight, or volume. You shall have honest scales, honest weights, an honest ephah, and an honest hin: I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt."

It seems to me that revisiting these scriptures, myths, and fairy tales also help us recover a sense of more profound gratitude for the wondrous progress in human civilization which has been bestowed upon us, which we ourselves also partook in through previous incarnations, and therefore a sense of responsibility towards bringing these works to completion through the inner capacities which have been founded upon waves and waves of sacrifice. 

"And in this I give advice: It is to your advantage not only to be doing what you began and were desiring to do a year ago; but now you also must complete the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to desire it, so there also may be a completion out of what you have. For if there is first a willing mind, it is accepted according to what one has, and not according to what he does not have."

But, as you also mentioned to Eugene, "we should not imagine that we already have an idea of how our cognition would expand, along which lines." That has proven to be the greatest difficulty in communicating such things - because every act of communication is easily mistaken by the clever and cunning cat for an act of theorizing, speculating, modeling, as we see from the discussion on the other 'triadic idealism' thread. There is not in the least a reverent longing towards the unexpected, the unsuspected, the unimagined. These terms seem to have no true import for the clever intellect, which stands at the periphery and manages to assimilate all analogies, metaphors, illustrations, etc., which point to supra-sensory realities, to its own personalized conceptions and ends. The timely post you shared from Cleric also highlights that fact in a very helpful way, as usual, via the CRT analogy. It still isn't understood that all attempts to model spiritual reality, of necessity, try to speed up the intellect, cram in more concepts, and build ever-more complicated structures. It isn't understood that this process is exactly what is standing in the way of enlivening/expanding the thinking consciousness into resonance with unsuspected spiritual forces.

In that connection, I want to share some additional excerpts from Steiner's lecture on fairy tales. It should really highlight how we need to sacrifice a singular focus on the content of our perceptions, experiences, thoughts, theories, models, etc., which we dimly try to match up with that reality so we can feel like we are making progress when we merely manage to reach the same things philosophers already accomplished hundreds of years ago, in order to actually experience the living texture of the cognitive soul-life which continuously animates that content. 

If we study sagas, myths and legends, we will always find that their traits, while hearkening to supersensible laws, are pervaded by the laws of external reality, that they trace a path from the world of spirit into the external world. And the sources of historical accounts, or those that are in some way connected with history, are of course connected with actual figures. Fairy tale alone does not allow itself to be configured in real or historical garb, but remains quite free in regard to them. It can draw as it likes on everything that exists in reality, and does so. Fairy tales are therefore the purest offspring of ancient primitive clairvoyance, are something like compensation for loss of ancient, primitive clairvoyance. Prosaic minds, pedants, who regard everything with a professorial eye, may not feel this. Nor do they need to, for the simple reason that they invariably want to establish the relation of any truth to outer reality. 

A figure like Capesius seeks the truth above all else. He cannot be satisfied by asking how a truth relates to ‘reality’. Is a truth confirmed, he asks himself, if we say it represents something that accords with the outer world? Things can be as true as you like, can be true and right and correct, yet may have as little connection with reality as the truth of that village lad who went to buy buns. His sums were correct but they bore no relation to reality: he worked out that, with his ten pennies, he should get five buns. This village lad behaved just like the philosophers who theorize about reality. But what he failed to consider was that in that particular village you got one free if you bought five. This was something that had no logic about it, and that no philosophy would have concluded. But nevertheless it was reality. So Capesius is not interested in how a particular idea, one or another concept, accords with ‘reality’. Instead his first question was what the human soul experiences in relation to any concept it forms. In everything that can only be outer reality, the human soul experiences desiccation, aridity, the capacity for continual death in the soul; and so Capesius needs to be refreshed by Frau Felicia’s fairy tale, needs something that need not be ‘true’ at all as far as external reality is concerned, a content that is real but that does not need to be true in the ordinary sense. And it is this content that helps prepare him to find his way into the occult world.

In the fairy tale we retain something like an offspring, an echo, of what people experienced in ancient clairvoyance. It is a form whose legitimacy is precisely due to the fact that no one who allows it to work upon them will assert that it bears a relationship to external reality. In the imaginative world of fairy tales, the poor lad who otherwise possesses nothing apart from his clever cat, takes ownership of a palace that protrudes into immediate reality. And so fairy tale can be a wonderful spiritual food for every age. When we tell children suitable fairy tales, we stir to life in the child’s soul something that does not lead them only toward life in a way that requires every idea to accord with external reality—for such a relationship to reality desiccates and lays waste the soul. By contrast, the soul stays alive and fresh, so that it penetrates the whole human organization, if it feels a higher reality in the lawful forms and figures of fairy-tale images. These lift the soul entirely above the outer world. A person becomes more vigorous in life, can take hold of life with more vitality if fairy tales have acted upon their soul in childhood. For Capesius, fairy tales kindle imaginative perception. It is not what they contain, not what they convey but the way they unfold, how one aspect links to the next, that works on in his soul. One feature allows soul forces to strive upward, another to strive downward, and in others, in turn, an interplay arises between ascending and descending powers. By these means his soul comes into movement, and there is drawn forth from it something that ultimately enables him to behold the world of spirit. For many, a fairy tale can be the most stirring, stimulating thing.

For many, a fairy tale can be the most stirring, stimulating thing. And this is why we find in fairy tales that originated in earlier times something that shows how aspects of ancient clairvoyant consciousness played into them. Originally, fairy tales were not ‘conceived’ by someone, no one worked them out—unlike the theories of modern folktale scholars who ‘explain’ fairy tales. No, they were not authored in the way we conceive of this but are the last remnants of ancient clairvoyance, were experienced in dream states by those who still had such capacities. What was seen in dream was related, like the tale of Puss-in-Boots, which is simply another version of the fairy tale I told you today. All fairy tales first originated as the last vestiges of a primordial clairvoyance. And so a true fairy tale can only be created if—either consciously or unconsciously—the power of Imagination is present, projecting into the soul of the fairy tale creator. 

Steiner, Rudolf. The Mission of the New Spirit Revelation (p. 168). Rudolf Steiner Press. Kindle Edition. 

[Stranger]

There is not in the least a reverent longing towards the unexpected, the unsuspected, the unimagined.

Here you go with your usual way of demeaning, misinterpreting and twisting any approach that does not align with your beliefs. Any honest philosopher, including BK of Nikolaj, and any spiritual practitioner having honest and genuine approach to reality, always know that they do not know everything and there are much more depths to reality not yet known to them.

What I consistently see in your treatment of other people’s views is a sectarian approach of demeaning, twisting and misinterpreting any views or practices that are not 100% aligned with your own system of beliefs, while not noticing that your own system of beliefs being only a sectarian narrow-minded and misinterpreted version of what Steiner actually taught. Being through so many religious and spiritual traditions, I saw many sectarians in my life, and from my observation it is usually some unrecognized psychological issues hiding in their unconscious blind spot, such as neurosis, some fears or feelings of personal insufficiency, that drive people into their sectarian position. So, for them to resolve such stagnation in their sectarian approach, it is not a matter of finding the "right" system of beliefs, but rather a matter of recognizing and resolving their psychological issues. And it is ironic that sectarians are the ones who do the most damage to the very traditions or teachings they claim to adhere to, which we can see form the history of traditional religions.

[Federica]

There is not in the least a reverent longing towards the unexpected, the unsuspected, the unimagined.

Here you go with your usual way of misinterpreting and twisting any approach that does not align with your beliefs. Any honest philosopher, including BK of Nikolaj, and any spiritual practitioner having honest and genuine approach to reality, always know that they do not know everything and there are much more depths to reality not yet known to them.

What I consistently see in your treatment of other people’s views is a sectarian approach of demeaning, twisting and misinterpreting any views or practices that are not 100% aligned with your own system of beliefs, while not noticing that your own system of beliefs being only a sectarian narrow-minded and misinterpreted version of what Steiner actually taught. Being through so many religious and spiritual traditions, I saw many sectarians in my life, and from my observation it is usually some unrecognized psychological issues hiding in their unconscious blind spot, such as neurosis, some fears or feelings of personal insufficiency, that drive people into their sectarian position. So, for them to resolve such stagnation in their sectarian approach, it is not a matter of finding the "right" system of beliefs, but rather a matter of recognizing and resolving their psychological issues.

OMG Eugene... One can find so many good qualities in you, but when such irresistible pull comes to you and wants to draw you in unhelpful directions like here - that I am sure you yourself cannot be happy with - please, see that you can differentiate yourself from it. It can actually be resisted, you can resist it, for the sake of your own win. I can see that not because I am more clever than you, I am certainly not, but because I am external to you, and also I have a good dispositon, if you can believe that. Please do, you are worth much more and better than that.

[Stranger]

OMG Eugene... One can find so many good qualities in you, but when such irresistible pull comes to you and wants to draw you in unhelpful directions like here - that I am sure you yourself cannot be happy with - please, see that you can differentiate yourself from it. It can actually be resisted, you can resist it, for the sake of your own win. I can see that not because I am more clever than you, I am certainly not, but because I am external to you, and also I have a good dispositon, if you can believe that. Please do, you are worth much more and better than that.

So, you do not see any problem with Ashvin consistently demeaning and misinterpreting any views not aligned with his own beliefs, but immediately see a problem when people attempt to point to this issue?

[Federica]

OMG Eugene... One can find so many good qualities in you, but when such irresistible pull comes to you and wants to draw you in unhelpful directions like here - that I am sure you yourself cannot be happy with - please, see that you can differentiate yourself from it. It can actually be resisted, you can resist it, for the sake of your own win. I can see that not because I am more clever than you, I am certainly not, but because I am external to you, and also I have a good dispositon, if you can believe that. Please do, you are worth much more and better than that.

So, you do not see any problem with Ashvin consistently demeaning and misinterpreting any views not aligned with his own beliefs, but immediately see a problem when people attempt to point to this issue?

I want to give this a proper answer. I don't have time now, I'll have to do it later today.

[Stranger]

I want to give this a proper answer. I don't have time now, I'll have to do it later today.

When you do it, also show me where BK, Nikolaj, or me ever said that they already know everything and nave no "reverence and longing towards the unexpected, the unsuspected, the unimagined". I believe that any honest and genuine philosopher or spiritual practitioner (I believe me included) are always driven by "reverence and longing towards the unexpected, the unsuspected, the unimagined". I just can't help seeing such an arrogance in Ashvin's treatment of other people views or approaches blindly assuming that they have "no reverence and longing towards the unexpected, the unsuspected, the unimagined", or claiming that everything they say are only abstract and empty of meaning statements or views not grounded in any spiritual or phenomenological experience, with no ground for such assumptions, just because their views may not align with his system of beliefs.

I also do not agree with many views of BK or Nikolaj or Rupert Spira or other teachers of philosophers, or some views of many other philosophies or spiritual traditions for that matter, but I still always try to see some intuitions to the aspects of truth that they may still have in spite of the gaps in their approaches as something that I may also learn from and adopt. And if they do have inconsistencies or gaps, it is always useful to point to them for the sake of our common endeavor to find the truth. But there is a fuzzy borderline between pointing to inconsistencies or gaps or attempting a constructive criticism, and rejecting, demeaning and intentionally twisting and misinterpreting some views just because they are not fully aligned with our current system of beliefs.

By the way, I will be leaving this forum. It is impossible to have any constructive dialog when your words are consistently twisted, misinterpreted and demeaned in all possible and impossible ways, and especially when it is done to the positions or views of other people who don't even participate in the forum and cannot answer. IMO, this is also the reason why most former forum members left the forum. It is a shame that many people likely left with some bitter and negative attitude towards idealism and anthroposophy, which has nothing to do with idealism or anthroposophy per se, but has everything to do with the way the discussions were done, their posts were treated and idealism was presented by some super-anxious members of the forum. They likely could be convinced in favor of idealism if they would be treated in a better way. As a result, there have been more damage than good done to the promotion of idealism and anthroposophy on this forum.

When people start looking at some spiritual practice or philosophy, it is not just views that they look at, but also and mostly the personal and spiritual development that they can achieve by adhering to these views or practices. When people see and listen to Thich Nhat Hanh, they think "I want to be a person like him, what do I need to practice and how do I need to change my views to accomplish that?". On the other hand, when they see an example of poor and dishonest treatment by some members of a spiritual or philosophical system, it becomes the words demotivator no matter how attractive the paradigm itself may seem to be presented.