Triadic idealism: a model for the fundamental nature of reality

[Federica]

Lorenzo, you sound different today, what is in you that makes you speak in this way?

[Stranger]

Anyone can decide for themselves which is greater Oneness - a dream character that nebulously basks in the feeling of Oneness with the dimly intuited higher being or making the paths straight such that the higher being can awaken more and more at its own level of consciousness yet reaching into the dream - just like in ordinary lucid dreaming we awaken to the higher consciousness that lives in the telos of our Earthly life, yet we continue to interface with the dream. In which of the two cases we are more One with the higher self? I believe the answer is obvious.

No one is closing off for the possibility of realizing Oneness. In fact we only try to convey how we're at a stage where this realization must go even further.

The first one in not Oneness but only a nebulous dream about it. The second one is also not Oneness but ascending to our individual higher self, and that is definitely an evolutionary progress, but it is not realizing Oneness. Oneness is realizing the One Universal Self in which our individual self, be it little human or higher self, is only a dream character. Then the dream continues but in a lucid way with the only actual dreamer of it being the Divine Self, and after that the realization must go even further. That is not an intellectual understanding, but experiential realization. This transition to the lucid mode is only a beginning of a new stage of the evolutionary path where we continue along the stream of unfolding and diving into the depths of the Christ's mystery to which there is no end.

[Cleric K]

The first one in not Oneness but only a nebulous dream about it. The second one is also not Oneness but ascending to our individual higher self, and that is definitely an evolutionary progress, but it is not realizing Oneness. Oneness is realizing the One Universal Self in which our individual self, be it little human or higher self, is only a dream character. Then the dream continues but in a lucid way with the only actual dreamer of it being the Divine Self, and after that the realization must go even further. That is not an intellectual understanding, but experiential realization. This transition to the lucid mode is only a beginning of a new stage of the evolutionary path where we continue along the stream of unfolding and diving into the depths of the Christ's mystery to which there is no end.

OK, I hope it is clear that the above amounts no nothing else but the desire to always feel on top of all. I leave it to you to figure out how it is possible to be merged with the highest of high, yet know nothing of the 'individual' higher self, who has consciousness that overarches the different incarnations. And we already know how this goes: you reply "Realizing the highest of high doesn't mean attaining to the highest level of consciousness. It means only to realize the Oneness with it."

So if we're to put your view into an image, it is like the path through the 'individual' higher self is like a gradual climbing of a mountain. The peak is shrouded in clouds but as we climb the light slowly pierces and dissipates them. On the other hand, the Realization is the feeling/experience/intuition that we are already at the top, even though still in dense clouds. So your message is "There's nothing wrong with the gradual climbing and development of seeing consciousness but you miss the realization that we're already at the top, even though we can feel this only as a powerful, yet shrouded in clouds intuition."

Would you agree with such an image?

[Stranger]

OK, I hope it is clear that the above amounts no nothing else but the desire to always feel on top of all. I leave it to you to figure out how it is possible to be merged with the highest of high, yet know nothing of the 'individual' higher self, who has consciousness that overarches the different incarnations. And we already know how this goes: you reply "Realizing the highest of high doesn't mean attaining to the highest level of consciousness. It means only to realize the Oneness with it."

So if we're to put your view into an image, it is like the path through the 'individual' higher self is like a gradual climbing of a mountain. The peak is shrouded in clouds but as we climb the light slowly pierces and dissipates them. On the other hand, the Realization is the feeling/experience/intuition that we are already at the top, even though still in dense clouds. So your message is "There's nothing wrong with the gradual climbing and development of seeing consciousness but you miss the realization that we're already at the top, even though we can feel this only as a powerful, yet shrouded in clouds intuition."

Would you agree with such an image?

Well, you may think of it this way but I'm not sure if it is a fully appropriate analogy. I wrote so much over the last couple of months trying to explain/describe it that I don't think I can add anything more to that. And yes, there is an ascension path to the higher self with its consciousness that overarches the different incarnations, but that is not what the nondual realization is about. The path of the nondual Gnosis and the ascension path neither substitute nor contradict each other, but are the two aspects of one wholistic path. The Gnosis may happen before reaching to the higher self, even in this incarnation or in one of the next ones, or it may happen after. It is like instead of expanding the field of consciousness only in horizontal or only in vertical direction, it is getting expanded in both like a growing sphere.

[lorenzop]

Lorenzo, you sound different today, what is in you that makes you speak in this way?

Out of every 1 million people people on the planet, maybe 1 or two are interested in this topic, and of those few who are interested, even fewer would grasp the differences in the arguments being presented by Stranger, Ashwin and Cleric. I suggest this just to point out the obscure and picayune nature of this discussion.
AND, it's humerous because neither Stranger, Ashwin nor Cleric know what they are talking about. I know this because no one who understands and lives Oneness would be here digging in their heels and buttressing arguments re Oneness.
Even if one could win the argument, one still loses.
If it were up to me, I'd delete this whole forum lest some unsuspecting seeker stumble in here and get stuck in this quagmire.
Lou . . . please delete this forum, or place a significant warning up front!!!
Good Bye to all!!!

[Lou Gold]

AN EQUINOX PRAYER FOR ALL BEINGS

[Cleric K]

Well, you may think of it this way but I'm not sure if it is a fully appropriate analogy. I wrote so much over the last couple of months trying to explain/describe it that I don't think I can add anything more to that. And yes, there is an ascension path to the higher self with its consciousness that overarches the different incarnations, but that is not what the nondual realization is about. The path of the nondual Gnosis and the ascension path neither substitute nor contradict each other, but are the two aspects of one wholistic path. The Gnosis may happen before reaching to the higher self, even in this incarnation or in one of the next ones, or it may happen after. It is like instead of expanding the field of consciousness only in horizontal or only in vertical direction, it is getting expanded in both like a growing sphere.

OK, then let's focus on the wholistic path which integrates the two aspects. I guess you would agree that this should be the highest goal. The nondual path can be considered as the aspect of Love for the high ideal, our mystic union with the Divine. The other aspect is the path of Wisdom which awakens and manifests the Divine Consciousness in all concreteness. The holistic integration is Truth.

So if they are two aspects of the one reality then at what point it would be appropriate to begin working also on the aspect of cognition? You see, this is something I'm trying to point attention to. When we speak in general terms, like in the previous paragraph, it's all good. But then, when we really have to consider the integration of the two aspects in practice, then suddenly cognitive development is seen as somewhat inferior, as if it remains dabbling in dualism and misses the essential Oneness. So if we're to have constructive dialog, let's consider this. Logically, at some point we have to arrive at the realization that our evolutionary progress reaches a standstill if we focus only on one aspect. Oneness without cognition is like union with infinite Cosmic space, yet in a completely inexplicable way, there's a chasm between the thinking self and the mystical awareness. On the other hand, wisdom which doesn't continuously calibrate its high ideal towards serving the One Cosmic organism, inevitably will be sidetracked into egoism. So there's no question that the two aspects should spiral together like the Cosmic Feminine and Cosmic Masculine.

So in your view, what would the integration of the aspect of cognition look like? Not in a general way but as something concrete. In other words, do you think that there's something that must be added/augmented in your current meditative practice if the cognitive aspect is to be worked upon? Or in this incarnation you feel you should give priority to the Oneness aspect and leave the balancing for another incarnation? Or you feel that you're already addressing the aspect of cognition?

[Stranger]

OK, then let's focus on the wholistic path which integrates the two aspects. I guess you would agree that this should be the highest goal. The nondual path can be considered as the aspect of Love for the high ideal, our mystic union with the Divine. The other aspect is the path of Wisdom which awakens and manifests the Divine Consciousness in all concreteness. The holistic integration is Truth.

Tha is exactly right.

So if they are two aspects of the one reality then at what point it would be appropriate to begin working also on the aspect of cognition? You see, this is something I'm trying to point attention to. When we speak in general terms, like in the previous paragraph, it's all good. But then, when we really have to consider the integration of the two aspects in practice, then suddenly cognitive development is seen as somewhat inferior, as if it remains dabbling in dualism and misses the essential Oneness.

No, I never consider it inferior, I just emphasize the Oneness because I see it as being deemphasized and ignored.
Moreover, realizing Oneness happens only on some higher levels of cognition, so developing a certain level and maturity of high cognition is needed for that.

So if we're to have constructive dialog, let's consider this. Logically, at some point we have to arrive at the realization that our evolutionary progress reaches a standstill if we focus only on one aspect. Oneness without cognition is like union with infinite Cosmic space, yet in a completely inexplicable way, there's a chasm between the thinking self and the mystical awareness. On the other hand, wisdom which doesn't continuously calibrate its high ideal towards serving the One Cosmic organism, inevitably will be sidetracked into egoism. So there's no question that the two aspects should spiral together like the Cosmic Feminine and Cosmic Masculine.

Agreed

So in your view, what would the integration of the aspect of cognition look like? Not in a general way but as something concrete. In other words, do you think that there's something that must be added/augmented in your current meditative practice if the cognitive aspect is to be worked upon? Or in this incarnation you feel you should give priority to the Oneness aspect and leave the balancing for another incarnation? Or you feel that you're already addressing the aspect of cognition?

Both aspects should be integrated, understood and absorbed intellectually and intuitively and then practiced, practiced, practiced in this very incarnation. My only reservation here is that I do not agree that the development of high cognition is only possible within the framework of Anthroposophy and only by practicing the exercises prescribed by Steiner, that would be a very sectarian approach. Anthroposophic practice of high cognition development is indeed useful, no question about that, but that does not mean it is the only way to do that.

[Stranger]

AN EQUINOX PRAYER FOR ALL BEINGS

Thank you Lou, you always bring Peace.

And please do not delete the forum per Lorenzo's request, even though you may have powers to do that

[Lou Gold]

AN EQUINOX PRAYER FOR ALL BEINGS

Thank you Lou, you always bring Peace.

And please do not delete the forum per Lorenzo's request, even though you may have powers to do that

Thanks Eugene. I'm a long-term lurker, I guess. Observing the deeper ways of others helps me appreciate and respect the beauties of all paths despite self-preferential commentary of the journiers. I've learned a great deal here at this forum. May we learn how to soar high, dive deep and touch like a feather.