Interesting New DMT research

[Cleric K]

Aloha Cleric,

You say, The comments are based on my own experience. Such things become clear as soon as we understand that the invisible world has to be read and not simply beheld as inexplicable and enchanting picture.

I ask simply "Have you personally engaged in a disciplined spiritual practice such as Santo Daime?"

I don't comment on another person's process. I'm only trying to clarify what personal experiential ground you are speaking from?

I don't doubt that one might use psychedelics and still be a materialist as you report about Cameron and with whom I'm not familiar. I do know users of Santo Daime across a very wide spectrum of philosophical positions, with a range of primary serious spiritual practices and with professional roles of high responsibility who report that usage has enhanced their real-time performance in the here-and-now. It surely has enhanced mine and I count it as a highly significant reason that I'm still alive. Yet, despite its tremendously valuable gift in my life, advocacy of the practice for others is prohibited by the protocol and I agree.

So, once again, I beg you to state beyond "I know from personal experience" the nature and extent of that experience.

I haven’t participated in a Santo Daime ceremony, nor in Ayahuasca retreat. And I understand why you ask. There’s night and day difference between the typical psychonautic usage, not to mention recreational usage at parties, and the disciplined setting that you speak of. I can only assure you that my own experiments, even though they have certainly been more on the recreational side in the early years, have then transformed into a fully responsible activity that seeks communion with the invisible depth of reality.

Let’s be clear: in no way do I challenge the fact that many people have a positive impact in their life through the spiritual use of entheogens. But as your all inclusive diversity philosophy would confirm, such positive impact can be achieved in many different ways. For some it’s enough to eat healthy and exercise regularly, others choose spiritual practice and so on.

To understand what we’re talking about we have to widen the context. In general, we find ourselves as human beings in an Earthly environment. We are born, we struggle through life and we leave. So much we agree on. Then we can ask questions: how can we enhance this Earthly passage? How can we find peace, love, understanding? How can we find health, happiness, abundance? These are the basic things that people are concerned with. As said above, there are many paths through which all of this can be enhanced.

Yet from as long as there have been people on Earth, there have also been more extensive questions like: from where I come before I’m born and where I go after I leave? How does this Earthly passage fit in the bigger picture? What’s the purpose of all this? Should my Earthly life in some way be informed and guided by what lies beyond it?

Needless to say, in the last few centuries these latter questions have gradually come to be considered unanswerable. So the basic philosophy comes to: “Just believe in whatever enhances your life in the best possible way. No one knows anything anyway.”

We have to very clearly differentiate these levels because one and the same thing can have different effects depending on the level. For example we can climb with a helium balloon only to a certain altitude. When the atmosphere becomes so thin that it is no longer heavier than the balloon, then it doesn’t rise anymore. We need other means if we’re to continue further.

So it is in the case of psychedelics. Let us be reminded that after all, the effects are produced through ingesting a physical substance. Materialists are much more conscious of this than most spiritually inclined people. The latter very quickly forget that they have ingested something and act as if they are confronted with some kind of pure experience. And I repeat that as long as certain goals are pursued, this may be perfectly fine. But if we are to investigate the questions of the second kind, then the chemical storm in the body actually becomes an obstacle, no matter how Cosmic and intimate it may feel like.

That’s why I used the analogy with light and dust in that post. For those who don’t know that the light exists, some dust may actually be the greatest benefactor (just as suffering is often the greatest benefactor). Please try to feel how the tides change – in the beginning the dust acts as an enhancer of consciousness because it makes perceptible unsuspected aspects of our light being. But after a certain point, when we are already self-conscious within our light being, it becomes the opposite – it becomes an obstruction to light.

So please try to understand these levels of development because without this whatever we say would sound as nothing but another mindless vs. battle. Think about the second batch of questions. It would be better if you say that you don’t believe that the human spirit can know anything of its supra-Earthly existence or that you simply have no interest in knowing anything about it but at least try to conceive that for someone who tries to penetrate these questions with the light of cognition, it becomes supremely important to be able to differentiate the gross from the subtle. Why? Because only in this way we can comprehend what comes from our body, what comes from our soul, what comes from our spirit. And no, this is not in order to despise the gross and pridefully escape in the subtle but only because our holistic spiritual being can’t operate properly otherwise. Our human body is an example of this. Our intestines separate the gross, which is discarded and serves other important purposes in the world, from the subtle that enters the bloodstream and nourishes every cell. If the gross also begins to diffuse in the rest of the organism we’ll simply become sick. As strange as it may sound, the reason humans today don’t have clear consciousness of the supra-Earthly can be described precisely as such a sickness. There’s no proper differentiation and rhythmic exchange. ‘Differentiation’ of course sounds like blasphemy for those who absolutize the pole of Oneness. They would say “But this makes no sense, we need more unity, not more differentiation!” and then everything is thrown in a bowl and mixed up. But is there anything more miraculous than the human body in our Earthly experience? Even a single bacterial cell far surpasses in complexity and ingenuity all the computers and nuclear plants that humankind has invented. So if Divine Intelligence had to devise the body in such a way that certain processes and substances are nicely differentiated – not in order to contradict and fight each other but precisely to be able to work together in the best possible way – then shouldn’t we humbly learn from all this and conceive that something similar is necessary also in regards to our body, soul and spirit?

So please don't be abstractly caught up in 'higher', 'lower' divisions. Simply consider the gradient of questions (of which only two principle levels were given). If you assume that the second batch is only a matter of personal belief then OK. Whatever we say would be seen as violence. But if you consider as a possibility that the human spirit can finds its way also in the supra-Earthly - not as vague interpretation of inexplicable visions but as clear cognizing consciousness of a new kind, that goes beyond the strictly personal - then it would be understandable that different stages have different requirements and what can act as an accelerator at one stage turns into a brake at another.

[Lou Gold]

And what difference would that make what is the justification for this curiosity?

Whenever someone says something judgemental of another path or spiritual way, I wonder about the personal experience that contributes to this view. It is surely ok to hold a belief structure. When Thich Nhat Hanh was asked about spirits, he simply said, "we don't believe in them" and did not (to my knowledge) offer criticism of the Mahayana approach, which employs a much richer imaginal palette. My curiosity in the case of Cleric is stimulated by a strong tone of judging other ways as higher or lower or whatever. I get a strong sense of evangelism, especially with Ashvin. All "grist for the mill" I guess.

It must be a very particular use of "whenever" you make here, because when I, for instance, judged your spiritual path, you didn't inquire about the personal experience that contributes to that view. Nor I remember that you did that with Ashvin, at least since I've been a member of this forum. But now for some reason you become unusually inquisitive. So what is the reason?

Federica,

Please notice that I said "whatever" and not "whenever".

I'm pretty moment to moment these days. In this particular thread, I was led by Ashvin to Cleric who, he asserted had better experience with psychedelics. I don't recall Ashvin saying that he was personally familiar with psychedelics. I was just following the thread of conversation and Cleric joined in. I have not questioned you on this matter because I don't recall you saying anything about using psychedelics and I do see that you are benefiting (in your own view) from Cleric's teachings. I have no reason to challenge that. "Good for you", I say. But, if there is something you'd like to toss in, please do.

[Lou Gold]

In general, a forum dedicated to simple sharing rather than critical comparison might sound like this...

[AshvinP]

I'm sorry for my ignorance. Has Cleric ever posted about his direct experience with spiritually disciplined use of entheogens or have his comments been speculative?

But, yes, I do believe the danger of idolatry lurks along all paths and demands an ever-vigilant awareness.

I would say practically everything he has written on that topic, or the development of higher cognition in general, is based on his direct experience. I know that it will sound 'speculative' or 'theoretical' to most, but we should ask whether that's perhaps because we are so accustomed to only hearing about these inner spiritual things in a speculative or theoretical manner. Actually that has probably been the greatest source of misunderstanding on this forum when it comes to spiritual science - it is simply assumed that the whole thing is a theoretical model of higher worlds because we can't imagine any other way in which the knowledge would have been attained. And that is understandable, because it is precisely through Imagination and higher faculties that the knowledge is attained. The ceiling of our imagination is the extent to which we ourselves have developed those faculties, although our normal healthy reasoning can certainly discern the overall coherence of the ideas with great confidence, looking from the outside-in.

Notice in the post - "Psychedelics can indeed give a shake for many people (as they did for me) and at least partially awaken them from the materialistic sleep but then we're prowled by the next danger which is the psychedelic state to become the next cargo cult." Of course he could provide more details on his experimentation.

Thanks for the (as they did for me) quote. I do remember it. But Cleric never elaborated whether his familiarity was an experiential sampling as it has been for many or if it moved forward into a disciplined protocol of spiritual inquiry and practice such as Santo Daime. In our previous discussions he only referenced some books by psychonauts like McKenna. Perhaps Cleric will help us with a more detailed description of his direct personal acquaintance with use in a disciplined spiritual practice.

I also opened YT and synchronously was prompted to a video lecture which speaks to the discussion on psychedelic use for higher development (which is clearly what the link you shared is pointing to as a possibility), particularly in the context of Cleric's last post. I couldn't locate the associated lecture, and I'm not feeling energetic enough to transcribe the relevant portions, so the video will have to suffice for now. It speaks of the effects of opium use and why these effects arise. Habitual opium use negatively influences the Ego-"I", i.e. the vehicle in which the light being becomes self-conscious and therefore such use becomes a positive obstacle to answering the 2nd batch of questions which Cleric pointed to. I'm not suggesting opium use is exactly the same as other psychedelics, but I think there are clear parallels to be drawn.





Also, I wonder what your thoughts were on Cleric's post. Particularly, is the below basically your position, or are you interested in answering and helping others to answer the 2nd batch of questions?

It would be better if you say that you don’t believe that the human spirit can know anything of its supra-Earthly existence or that you simply have no interest in knowing anything about it

It's clear that the post was not too philosophical or intellectual to comprehend for a storyteller, so please don't play that card

[Lou Gold]

Aloha Cleric,

You say, The comments are based on my own experience. Such things become clear as soon as we understand that the invisible world has to be read and not simply beheld as inexplicable and enchanting picture.

I ask simply "Have you personally engaged in a disciplined spiritual practice such as Santo Daime?"

I don't comment on another person's process. I'm only trying to clarify what personal experiential ground you are speaking from?

I don't doubt that one might use psychedelics and still be a materialist as you report about Cameron and with whom I'm not familiar. I do know users of Santo Daime across a very wide spectrum of philosophical positions, with a range of primary serious spiritual practices and with professional roles of high responsibility who report that usage has enhanced their real-time performance in the here-and-now. It surely has enhanced mine and I count it as a highly significant reason that I'm still alive. Yet, despite its tremendously valuable gift in my life, advocacy of the practice for others is prohibited by the protocol and I agree.

So, once again, I beg you to state beyond "I know from personal experience" the nature and extent of that experience.

I haven’t participated in a Santo Daime ceremony, nor in Ayahuasca retreat. And I understand why you ask. There’s night and day difference between the typical psychonautic usage, not to mention recreational usage at parties, and the disciplined setting that you speak of. I can only assure you that my own experiments, even though they have certainly been more on the recreational side in the early years, have then transformed into a fully responsible activity that seeks communion with the invisible depth of reality.

Let’s be clear: in no way do I challenge the fact that many people have a positive impact in their life through the spiritual use of entheogens. But as your all inclusive diversity philosophy would confirm, such positive impact can be achieved in many different ways. For some it’s enough to eat healthy and exercise regularly, others choose spiritual practice and so on.

To understand what we’re talking about we have to widen the context. In general, we find ourselves as human beings in an Earthly environment. We are born, we struggle through life and we leave. So much we agree on. Then we can ask questions: how can we enhance this Earthly passage? How can we find peace, love, understanding? How can we find health, happiness, abundance? These are the basic things that people are concerned with. As said above, there are many paths through which all of this can be enhanced.

Yet from as long as there have been people on Earth, there have also been more extensive questions like: from where I come before I’m born and where I go after I leave? How does this Earthly passage fit in the bigger picture? What’s the purpose of all this? Should my Earthly life in some way be informed and guided by what lies beyond it?

Needless to say, in the last few centuries these latter questions have gradually come to be considered unanswerable. So the basic philosophy comes to: “Just believe in whatever enhances your life in the best possible way. No one knows anything anyway.”

We have to very clearly differentiate these levels because one and the same thing can have different effects depending on the level. For example we can climb with a helium balloon only to a certain altitude. When the atmosphere becomes so thin that it is no longer heavier than the balloon, then it doesn’t rise anymore. We need other means if we’re to continue further.

So it is in the case of psychedelics. Let us be reminded that after all, the effects are produced through ingesting a physical substance. Materialists are much more conscious of this than most spiritually inclined people. The latter very quickly forget that they have ingested something and act as if they are confronted with some kind of pure experience. And I repeat that as long as certain goals are pursued, this may be perfectly fine. But if we are to investigate the questions of the second kind, then the chemical storm in the body actually becomes an obstacle, no matter how Cosmic and intimate it may feel like.

That’s why I used the analogy with light and dust in that post. For those who don’t know that the light exists, some dust may actually be the greatest benefactor (just as suffering is often the greatest benefactor). Please try to feel how the tides change – in the beginning the dust acts as an enhancer of consciousness because it makes perceptible unsuspected aspects of our light being. But after a certain point, when we are already self-conscious within our light being, it becomes the opposite – it becomes an obstruction to light.

So please try to understand these levels of development because without this whatever we say would sound as nothing but another mindless vs. battle. Think about the second batch of questions. It would be better if you say that you don’t believe that the human spirit can know anything of its supra-Earthly existence or that you simply have no interest in knowing anything about it but at least try to conceive that for someone who tries to penetrate these questions with the light of cognition, it becomes supremely important to be able to differentiate the gross from the subtle. Why? Because only in this way we can comprehend what comes from our body, what comes from our soul, what comes from our spirit. And no, this is not in order to despise the gross and pridefully escape in the subtle but only because our holistic spiritual being can’t operate properly otherwise. Our human body is an example of this. Our intestines separate the gross, which is discarded and serves other important purposes in the world, from the subtle that enters the bloodstream and nourishes every cell. If the gross also begins to diffuse in the rest of the organism we’ll simply become sick. As strange as it may sound, the reason humans today don’t have clear consciousness of the supra-Earthly can be described precisely as such a sickness. There’s no proper differentiation and rhythmic exchange. ‘Differentiation’ of course sounds like blasphemy for those who absolutize the pole of Oneness. They would say “But this makes no sense, we need more unity, not more differentiation!” and then everything is thrown in a bowl and mixed up. But is there anything more miraculous than the human body in our Earthly experience? Even a single bacterial cell far surpasses in complexity and ingenuity all the computers and nuclear plants that humankind has invented. So if Divine Intelligence had to devise the body in such a way that certain processes and substances are nicely differentiated – not in order to contradict and fight each other but precisely to be able to work together in the best possible way – then shouldn’t we humbly learn from all this and conceive that something similar is necessary also in regards to our body, soul and spirit?

So please don't be abstractly caught up in 'higher', 'lower' divisions. Simply consider the gradient of questions (of which only two principle levels were given). If you assume that the second batch is only a matter of personal belief then OK. Whatever we say would be seen as violence. But if you consider as a possibility that the human spirit can finds its way also in the supra-Earthly - not as vague interpretation of inexplicable visions but as clear cognizing consciousness of a new kind, that goes beyond the strictly personal - then it would be understandable that different stages have different requirements and what can act as an accelerator at one stage turns into a brake at another.

Thank you Cleric for your lengthy response. It carried at least part way into answering my question. I'm grateful for the opportunity to dialogue.

You go on to say,

Yet from as long as there have been people on Earth, there have also been more extensive questions like: from where I come before I’m born and where I go after I leave? How does this Earthly passage fit in the bigger picture? What’s the purpose of all this? Should my Earthly life in some way be informed and guided by what lies beyond it?

Needless to say, in the last few centuries these latter questions have gradually come to be considered unanswerable. So the basic philosophy comes to: “Just believe in whatever enhances your life in the best possible way. No one knows anything anyway.”

We have to very clearly differentiate these levels because one and the same thing can have different effects depending on the level. For example we can climb with a helium balloon only to a certain altitude. When the atmosphere becomes so thin that it is no longer heavier than the balloon, then it doesn’t rise anymore. We need other means if we’re to continue further.

Do you assume that I have not done this? Why? To clarify, yes, I have communion with the beyond the beyond, which continues to offer protection, guidance and well-being. The advice applies to wherever I may find myself and enhances my performance on many levels and in many forms. I consider this personal and do not advocate for it as a general "this is how things are for all." Are you open to the possibility that this is indeed how things work for me?

For those who don’t know that the light exists, some dust may actually be the greatest benefactor (just as suffering is often the greatest benefactor). Please try to feel how the tides change – in the beginning the dust acts as an enhancer of consciousness because it makes perceptible unsuspected aspects of our light being. But after a certain point, when we are already self-conscious within our light being, it becomes the opposite – it becomes an obstruction to light.

I am well aware and this is why continuous cleaning is part of our protocol. Why would you presume otherwise? Do you ask or just lecture? You go on and on with...

"... is there anything more miraculous than the human body in our Earthly experience? Even a single bacterial cell far surpasses in complexity and ingenuity all the computers and nuclear plants that humankind has invented. So if Divine Intelligence had to devise the body in such a way that certain processes and substances are nicely differentiated – not in order to contradict and fight each other but precisely to be able to work together in the best possible way – then shouldn’t we humbly learn from all this and conceive that something similar is necessary also in regards to our body, soul and spirit?"

Of course it's a miracle, and here in the late stage of my corporeal existence, I want to testify that for me Santo Daime is a good spiritual work, that love is the way and that enhancing my here-and-now performance of awareness is the best I can do. Humbly, I pray that the blessings I'm receiving may be available to all beings in their particular ways. May it be so.

"So please don't be abstractly caught up in 'higher', 'lower' divisions. Simply consider the gradient of questions (of which only two principle levels were given). If you assume that the second batch is only a matter of personal belief then OK. Whatever we say would be seen as violence. But if you consider as a possibility that the human spirit can finds its way also in the supra-Earthly - not as vague interpretation of inexplicable visions but as clear cognizing consciousness of a new kind, that goes beyond the strictly personal - then it would be understandable that different stages have different requirements and what can act as an accelerator at one stage turns into a brake at another."

Yes, I understand (stand under) and this is why I'm beholden to the communion and advice I receive from the beyond. Your cautionary suggestions of possible ego-inflation are well taken as something we all need to be aware of. Yes, we need to be vigilant against the tricks and traps of our own false self. Watching out for my own follies without judging other ways is enough of a challenge for me.

Thank you again, Cleric, for this dialogue.

[Lou Gold]

To All,

I must take my leave now feeling well satisfied with this dialogue. I must ration my energies carefully and beg that my departure is not taken as rude.

I offer praise and glory to the Father of the Light and to the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Queen of the Forest, Sea and Heaven.

Now contrite with my three queens
Of the heavens, the forest and the sea
Today in front of God
I need to testify
That love is good thing
And we must practice
If one day in Heaven
We have a hope to arrive

[Federica]

In essence, over the last few days, the discussion has revolved around only one question, be it with Eugene or here with Lou. The question is: are we interested in truth? But the majority of people are not. They are only interested in what can soothe their fears. The fears come from not being interested in truth, but that, as it were, is too much of a stretch for the huddled up soul.

[AshvinP]

In essence, over the last few days, the discussion has revolved around only one question, be it with Eugene or here with Lou. The question is: are we interested in truth? But the majority of people are not. They are only interested in what can soothe their fears. The fears come from not being interested in truth, but that, as it were, is too much of a stretch for the huddled up soul.

We should also remember the depth of 'truth', as Cleric indicated.

To understand what we’re talking about we have to widen the context. In general, we find ourselves as human beings in an Earthly environment. We are born, we struggle through life and we leave. So much we agree on. Then we can ask questions: how can we enhance this Earthly passage? How can we find peace, love, understanding? How can we find health, happiness, abundance? These are the basic things that people are concerned with. As said above, there are many paths through which all of this can be enhanced.

Yet from as long as there have been people on Earth, there have also been more extensive questions like: from where I come before I’m born and where I go after I leave? How does this Earthly passage fit in the bigger picture? What’s the purpose of all this? Should my Earthly life in some way be informed and guided by what lies beyond it?

Even with regards to the 2nd batch, however, many people are satisfied only with the spiritual seeking we get from ancient wisdom traditions, which in the modern age have been imported into all sorts of new age self-help programs and associated theories. That is a form of truth in its own right, but it is a flattened or, at best, slightly inflated form. The question is whether we are interested in expanding that truth from within by continually asking 'how/why'. It should be a genuine asking of 'how/why', i.e. without expectation that we already have the answer or the answer will look exactly like something we are already familiar with.

How/why did the ancient wisdom traditions arise?
How/why did they evolve?
How/why are they working into our current thought-experience?
How/why am I pursuing them?

Any many similar ones. These sorts of questions all lead us into the depth structure of spiritual reality, i.e. the future of human evolution. They lead us into our real-time activity of Thinking from the Cosmic to the Individual scales of experience, from which all cultural forms of spirituality and their content over the ages have precipitated and continue to precipitate. The difference here really seems to be between those who recognize such questions exist, they are capable of being answered, they haven't yet been answered by us in any comprehensive way, the answers won't look like past forms of thinking we already know, and they are worth pursuing if we desire to become active participants in spiritual evolution, in contrast to those who fail to recognize most of those things. It's not about locking us into any rigid path of seeking the depth structure, which I think should be obvious from the diversity of angles brought to bear on this forum for approaching that structure, but simply recognizing in all seriousness that we are not already conscious of it in our familiar life of concepts (including mystical/psychedelic experiences formatted by those concepts).

[AshvinP]

In essence, over the last few days, the discussion has revolved around only one question, be it with Eugene or here with Lou. The question is: are we interested in truth? But the majority of people are not. They are only interested in what can soothe their fears. The fears come from not being interested in truth, but that, as it were, is too much of a stretch for the huddled up soul.

We should also remember the depth of 'truth', as Cleric indicated.

To understand what we’re talking about we have to widen the context. In general, we find ourselves as human beings in an Earthly environment. We are born, we struggle through life and we leave. So much we agree on. Then we can ask questions: how can we enhance this Earthly passage? How can we find peace, love, understanding? How can we find health, happiness, abundance? These are the basic things that people are concerned with. As said above, there are many paths through which all of this can be enhanced.

Yet from as long as there have been people on Earth, there have also been more extensive questions like: from where I come before I’m born and where I go after I leave? How does this Earthly passage fit in the bigger picture? What’s the purpose of all this? Should my Earthly life in some way be informed and guided by what lies beyond it?

Even with regards to the 2nd batch, however, many people are satisfied only with the spiritual seeking we get from ancient wisdom traditions, which in the modern age have been imported into all sorts of new age self-help programs and associated theories. That is a form of truth in its own right, but it is a flattened or, at best, slightly inflated form. The question is whether we are interested in expanding that truth from within by continually asking 'how/why'. It should be a genuine asking of 'how/why', i.e. without expectation that we already have the answer or the answer will look exactly like something we are already familiar with.

How/why did the ancient wisdom traditions arise?
How/why did they evolve?
How/why are they working into our current thought-experience?
How/why am I pursuing them?

Any many similar ones. These sorts of questions all lead us into the depth structure of spiritual reality, i.e. the future of human evolution. They lead us into our real-time activity of Thinking from the Cosmic to the Individual scales of experience, from which all cultural forms of spirituality and their content over the ages have precipitated and continue to precipitate. The difference here really seems to be between those who recognize such questions exist, they are capable of being answered, they haven't yet been answered by us in any comprehensive way, the answers won't look like past forms of thinking we already know, and they are worth pursuing if we desire to become active participants in spiritual evolution, in contrast to those who fail to recognize most of those things. It's not about locking us into any rigid path of seeking the depth structure, which I think should be obvious from the diversity of angles brought to bear on this forum for approaching that structure, but simply recognizing in all seriousness that we are not already conscious of it in our familiar life of concepts (including mystical/psychedelic experiences formatted by those concepts).

In connection with the above, I want to share a passage which also highlights, by way of the New Testament, that the path of modern initiation is one which must necessarily seek ever-new forms through which it can approach the spiritual depth structure, and which I think is a principle nicely embodied on this forum. Many things can be understood in their proper context if we simply get a more living sense for the spiritual evolutionary stream of humanity over the epochs, within which we are tasked with continual adaptation.

The Baptist also baptized in this way in order to bring mankind into a closer union with the Godhead. And this is what all baptism signified in ancient times. It is a radical expression, but one which brings to our consciousness what is meant. Christ Jesus had to baptize with something different. He had to direct men, not to the past, but to the future through the development of a spirituality in their inner being. Through the “holy,” the undimmed and undefiled Spirit, the human spirit could be united with the Godhead. Baptism by water was a baptism of remembrance, that of the Holy Spirit is one of prophecy pointing to the future. That relationship which has been wholly lost, and which baptism by water recalls to mind has also been lost in all that was expressed in the symbol of the wine, of the sacrificial wine. Dionysos was the dismembered God who was drawn into the individual souls, separate parts no longer knowing anything of one another. Humanity was split into many pieces and thrown into matter through what alcohol has brought to the world, alcohol the symbol of Dionysos. In the Marriage at Cana, a great principle was preserved, the instructive principle of evolution. There are, to be sure, absolute truths, but they cannot at all times be revealed to men without preparation. Each age must have its special function, its special truths. Why is it that we can speak today of reincarnation, etc.? Why are we able to sit together in such an assembly as this and foster Spiritual Science? We can do so, because all of the souls which are present within you today have been incarnated upon the earth in so and so many bodies and so and so many times. Very many of the souls which are within you now lived at one time in the Germanic countries where the Druid priests walked among you and brought to your souls Spiritual Wisdom in the form of myth and saga. And because your soul received it in that form at that time, it is now in the position to receive it in another form, the Anthroposophical. At that time it was in the form of pictures — today it is in the form of Anthroposophy. But then it would not have been possible to impart truth in its present form. Do not imagine that the ancient Druid priest would have been able to impart the truth in the form in which it is presented today. Anthroposophy is the form befitting the humanity of the present or of the immediate future. In later incarnations truth will be proclaimed, and men will work for it in quite different forms, and what is now called Anthroposophy will be related as something remembered, just as we now relate the Sagas and Fairy-tales. Anthroposophists should not be foolish enough to say that in ancient times there existed only stupidities and childish ideas, and that we alone have advanced the world so gloriously. Those, for example, who pretend to be monists do this. But we are working in Spiritual Science in preparation for the next epoch. For if our present age were not here, the next would likewise not come.

[Federica]

In essence, over the last few days, the discussion has revolved around only one question, be it with Eugene or here with Lou. The question is: are we interested in truth? But the majority of people are not. They are only interested in what can soothe their fears. The fears come from not being interested in truth, but that, as it were, is too much of a stretch for the huddled up soul.

We should also remember the depth of 'truth', as Cleric indicated.

To understand what we’re talking about we have to widen the context. In general, we find ourselves as human beings in an Earthly environment. We are born, we struggle through life and we leave. So much we agree on. Then we can ask questions: how can we enhance this Earthly passage? How can we find peace, love, understanding? How can we find health, happiness, abundance? These are the basic things that people are concerned with. As said above, there are many paths through which all of this can be enhanced.

Yet from as long as there have been people on Earth, there have also been more extensive questions like: from where I come before I’m born and where I go after I leave? How does this Earthly passage fit in the bigger picture? What’s the purpose of all this? Should my Earthly life in some way be informed and guided by what lies beyond it?

Even with regards to the 2nd batch, however, many people are satisfied only with the spiritual seeking we get from ancient wisdom traditions, which in the modern age have been imported into all sorts of new age self-help programs and associated theories. That is a form of truth in its own right, but it is a flattened or, at best, slightly inflated form. The question is whether we are interested in expanding that truth from within by continually asking 'how/why'. It should be a genuine asking of 'how/why', i.e. without expectation that we already have the answer or the answer will look exactly like something we are already familiar with.

How/why did the ancient wisdom traditions arise?
How/why did they evolve?
How/why are they working into our current thought-experience?
How/why am I pursuing them?

Any many similar ones. These sorts of questions all lead us into the depth structure of spiritual reality, i.e. the future of human evolution. They lead us into our real-time activity of Thinking from the Cosmic to the Individual scales of experience, from which all cultural forms of spirituality and their content over the ages have precipitated and continue to precipitate. The difference here really seems to be between those who recognize such questions exist, they are capable of being answered, they haven't yet been answered by us in any comprehensive way, the answers won't look like past forms of thinking we already know, and they are worth pursuing if we desire to become active participants in spiritual evolution, in contrast to those who fail to recognize most of those things. It's not about locking us into any rigid path of seeking the depth structure, which I think should be obvious from the diversity of angles brought to bear on this forum for approaching that structure, but simply recognizing in all seriousness that we are not already conscious of it in our familiar life of concepts (including mystical/psychedelic experiences formatted by those concepts).

In connection with the above, I want to share a passage which also highlights, by way of the New Testament, that the path of modern initiation is one which must necessarily seek ever-new forms through which it can approach the spiritual depth structure, and which I think is a principle nicely embodied on this forum. Many things can be understood in their proper context if we simply get a more living sense for the spiritual evolutionary stream of humanity over the epochs, within which we are tasked with continual adaptation.

The Baptist also baptized in this way in order to bring mankind into a closer union with the Godhead. And this is what all baptism signified in ancient times. It is a radical expression, but one which brings to our consciousness what is meant. Christ Jesus had to baptize with something different. He had to direct men, not to the past, but to the future through the development of a spirituality in their inner being. Through the “holy,” the undimmed and undefiled Spirit, the human spirit could be united with the Godhead. Baptism by water was a baptism of remembrance, that of the Holy Spirit is one of prophecy pointing to the future. That relationship which has been wholly lost, and which baptism by water recalls to mind has also been lost in all that was expressed in the symbol of the wine, of the sacrificial wine. Dionysos was the dismembered God who was drawn into the individual souls, separate parts no longer knowing anything of one another. Humanity was split into many pieces and thrown into matter through what alcohol has brought to the world, alcohol the symbol of Dionysos. In the Marriage at Cana, a great principle was preserved, the instructive principle of evolution. There are, to be sure, absolute truths, but they cannot at all times be revealed to men without preparation. Each age must have its special function, its special truths. Why is it that we can speak today of reincarnation, etc.? Why are we able to sit together in such an assembly as this and foster Spiritual Science? We can do so, because all of the souls which are present within you today have been incarnated upon the earth in so and so many bodies and so and so many times. Very many of the souls which are within you now lived at one time in the Germanic countries where the Druid priests walked among you and brought to your souls Spiritual Wisdom in the form of myth and saga. And because your soul received it in that form at that time, it is now in the position to receive it in another form, the Anthroposophical. At that time it was in the form of pictures — today it is in the form of Anthroposophy. But then it would not have been possible to impart truth in its present form. Do not imagine that the ancient Druid priest would have been able to impart the truth in the form in which it is presented today. Anthroposophy is the form befitting the humanity of the present or of the immediate future. In later incarnations truth will be proclaimed, and men will work for it in quite different forms, and what is now called Anthroposophy will be related as something remembered, just as we now relate the Sagas and Fairy-tales. Anthroposophists should not be foolish enough to say that in ancient times there existed only stupidities and childish ideas, and that we alone have advanced the world so gloriously. Those, for example, who pretend to be monists do this. But we are working in Spiritual Science in preparation for the next epoch. For if our present age were not here, the next would likewise not come.

Ashvin,

I see the need to mediate, and your wish to mitigate any harsh statements. Maybe framing ‘truth’ in these larger terms can resonate with someone with a 'self-care philosophy', but I doubt that. To be the devil's advocate for a second, why should I even start to consider wondering about those how/why questions, if I have adopted a self-care philosophy? When the wisdom traditions are reduced to collections of contemplative objects, the reason why I choose to contemplate them is precisely to avoid inquiring about any depth structure they might end up revealing, because I want the objects to work for me as is, and to serve me and my needs, instead of putting myself at the service of the wisdom, and truth they manifest.

But let’s imagine that someone really is moved by the ‘second batch’ of questions (the first batch has little to do with truth), is eager to search and enquire, and only lacks direction and inspiration. This type should be a quite common encounter on a philosophical forum like this one. Even in this case, I doubt that the how/why questions by themselves are able to elicit deep insights in the true nature of reality. The problem is, they start from an existing faith or tradition, that has already projected the believer ‘up there’, as a standpoint for asking about depth of structure and lawfulness. I would say it’s like parachuting over the ocean and trying to land on a small buoy - it's not going to happen! Is it through the expansion of traditional faith that the believer, the practitioner, will be able to land into the depth structure of reality, with its wealth of ‘administrative’ complexity? Surface answers would inevitably come out from asking these questions from that place, I would think, if there is no background to refer to for what the questions even mean, and what inner attitude is required when approaching the inquiry. I think the depth structure can only be inquired from the bottom up, in a sort of “Path of knowledge”, by those who have an affinity for such an approach.

On the other side, I doubt that the very fervent believer, the one who is driven along a “Path of devotion”, animated by the warmth of faith more than by reasoning and grasping, would feel any need, in connection with the ‘second batch’, that would not already and fully be addressed by the loftiness of their faith. I think those will typically not be the ones who would find themselves pursuing higher cognition, maybe with some rare exceptions, or ‘saints’.

So for me the difference here is between those who have a thirst for knowledge and truth and those who don't, rather than between followers of wisdom traditions who ask those how/why questions, and those who don’t. Am I being too strict and categorical?