Intuition, thinking and Antroposophy

Any topics primarily focused on metaphysics can be discussed here, in a generally casual way, where conversations may take unexpected turns.
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Federica
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Re: Intuition, thinking and Antroposophy

Post by Federica »

Güney27 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:49 am I've been thinking about getting a tattoo for months.
Would a tattoo have an impact on my development (spiritual development).
I couldn't find anything about it from Steiner.
Güney,

Steiner actually said something about tattoos, namely that they have an influence on the soul during sleep.
It is contained in a lecture that hasn't been translated to English, given in Dornach on February 13, 1924. GA352.

You may want to read it in German, page 116 of this pdf:
http://fvn-archiv.net/PDF/GA/GA352.pdf#view=Fit
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
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Re: Intuition, thinking and Antroposophy

Post by Güney27 »

Hi Federica,

Doesn't that imply that tattoos can also have a good effect if you have a sun motif for example.
Of course also negative ones, with motifs like skulls or dragons.
~Only true love can heal broken hearts~
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Re: Intuition, thinking and Antroposophy

Post by Federica »

Güney27 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:30 pm Hi Federica,

Doesn't that imply that tattoos can also have a good effect if you have a sun motif for example.
Of course also negative ones, with motifs like skulls or dragons.
Güney,

To be honest, I don't know.
I prefer not to express my thoughts here, because I know I am not neutral in this respect, and the content of my ideas would be subjective, in the sense Ashvin gave earlier in this thread.
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
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Re: Intuition, thinking and Antroposophy

Post by AshvinP »

Güney27 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:30 pm Hi Federica,

Doesn't that imply that tattoos can also have a good effect if you have a sun motif for example.
Of course also negative ones, with motifs like skulls or dragons.

In general, I think the main point is the intention with which we do such things. The problem, however, is that we are hardly aware of our deeper motives in our normal consciousness. We may get a tattoo of Christ on the Cross (as an extreme example) and think 'surely this reflects my wholesome spiritual intentions', but it could just as easily be born from a desire for outer attention, from vanity, an inner insecurity, to signal our 'virtue', or any number of similar things. I think Steiner's lecture shared by Federica also points to how we have lost so much consciousness of the deeper spiritual origins and meanings behind outer adornments. The more we honestly confront this lack of spiritual consciousness, and also desire to attain it, the more hesitant we will also be to adorn all these outer symbols to our physical body, which is after all a temple of the living Spirit, especially in a semi-permanent way.

I am reminded of this verse here:

“And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words."
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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Re: Intuition, thinking and Antroposophy

Post by Federica »

AshvinP wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:01 pm
Güney27 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:30 pm Hi Federica,

Doesn't that imply that tattoos can also have a good effect if you have a sun motif for example.
Of course also negative ones, with motifs like skulls or dragons.

In general, I think the main point is the intention with which we do such things. The problem, however, is that we are hardly aware of our deeper motives in our normal consciousness. We may get a tattoo of Christ on the Cross (as an extreme example) and think 'surely this reflects my wholesome spiritual intentions', but it could just as easily be born from a desire for outer attention, from vanity, an inner insecurity, to signal our 'virtue', or any number of similar things. I think Steiner's lecture shared by Federica also points to how we have lost so much consciousness of the deeper spiritual origins and meanings behind outer adornments. The more we honestly confront this lack of spiritual consciousness, and also desire to attain it, the more hesitant we will also be to adorn all these outer symbols to our physical body, which is after all a temple of the living Spirit, especially in a semi-permanent way.

I am reminded of this verse here:

“And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words."

With reference to the verses Ashvin has quoted, I would like to add something of my experience with prayer that could be relevant to your question as well, Güney. One can be alone and pray (or one can think the tattoo is for oneself, and not for it to be seen by others) still something I notice sometimes (or often) is that I listen to myself praying. As if from another perspective that is not the one who is praying. When this happens, the prayer is not a prayer, it obviously becomes useless, and I would think also directly detrimental. Maybe it has its function, to the extent that the recognition can trigger other feelings that can open to the possibility of redeeming the experience. However, my point here is that one could do something similar with a tattoo, having it for oneself, and yet using it as a way to watch oneself with the tattooed addition, and enjoying the thought of what the tattoo says about one's spirituality, or what effects it attracts, etc. I'm not saying that this is you, only mentioning this possible risk.
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
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Re: Intuition, thinking and Antroposophy

Post by Güney27 »

Hi Ashvin,

,,Of course we shouldn't try to intellectually analyze the meaning of the verses, especially while we are meditating. We should treat them as any other thought-image into which we concentrate, with devotion, and let their content expand into and fill our inner volume. Sometimes I try to accompany the first two verses with pictures, because I feel it helps ward off distractions, but that's not necessary. We should trust that such mantras cordially invite the Cosmic will into our concentrated spiritual activity, to reanimate it with new life."



Don't we have to actively and constantly recreate the words?
When I think the words, they become memories after a short time.
The purpose of this exercise is to focus our mental activity, right?
Then it doesn't matter which thoughts you actively produce.
I like "Wisdom is in the light, better because it's shorter and easier to repeat.
Or we use vowels like in the other meditation.
I actually find the vocal meditations better because I can focus on them better than on more complicated phrases.
For example, how is the vocal meditation helpful on the path to imagination?
I don't see the connection here or I'm misunderstanding something.


Steiner once gave meditation such as the Rosenkreuz meditation and meditation in sentences instead of in pictures.
Wouldn't it be better to meditate more in pictures instead of in verbal thoughts to get to the level of imagination.
I find the Rosicrucian meditation very powerful. But I find it difficult to imagine everything, to bring out the pictures "sharp" is difficult and requires a lot of strength.
I have decided to try this meditation once a day.
However, I have concerns if I often do different meditations every day.
As I said, I'm trying to put together a plan and would like to limit myself to certain exercises, but there are many and I don't want to miss any.
:?: :D
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Re: Intuition, thinking and Antroposophy

Post by AshvinP »

Güney27 wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:59 pm Hi Ashvin,

,,Of course we shouldn't try to intellectually analyze the meaning of the verses, especially while we are meditating. We should treat them as any other thought-image into which we concentrate, with devotion, and let their content expand into and fill our inner volume. Sometimes I try to accompany the first two verses with pictures, because I feel it helps ward off distractions, but that's not necessary. We should trust that such mantras cordially invite the Cosmic will into our concentrated spiritual activity, to reanimate it with new life."



Don't we have to actively and constantly recreate the words?
When I think the words, they become memories after a short time.
The purpose of this exercise is to focus our mental activity, right?
Then it doesn't matter which thoughts you actively produce.
I like "Wisdom is in the light, better because it's shorter and easier to repeat.
Or we use vowels like in the other meditation.
I actually find the vocal meditations better because I can focus on them better than on more complicated phrases.
For example, how is the vocal meditation helpful on the path to imagination?
I don't see the connection here or I'm misunderstanding something.


Steiner once gave meditation such as the Rosenkreuz meditation and meditation in sentences instead of in pictures.
Wouldn't it be better to meditate more in pictures instead of in verbal thoughts to get to the level of imagination.
I find the Rosicrucian meditation very powerful. But I find it difficult to imagine everything, to bring out the pictures "sharp" is difficult and requires a lot of strength.
I have decided to try this meditation once a day.
However, I have concerns if I often do different meditations every day.
As I said, I'm trying to put together a plan and would like to limit myself to certain exercises, but there are many and I don't want to miss any.
:?: :D

Guney,

I am not suggesting to do any specific meditations over other ones. It's all about trial and error and figuring out what works best within our individual context. If you attain better concentration with pictures and using the same picture every time, then that should be fine. I don't vary the content of my meditations much, either. Above all, we shouldn't expect to perfect the practice in any short timeframe, attaining spectacular results. Instead we should treat it like learning an instrument, where we will devote a small amount of time each day to studying the relevant material and accustoming our organism to a new skill, practicing whenever possible. Except, as mentioned before, we can also develop a sense for how this is no mere personal skill we are acquiring, but something which contributes to Earth evolution as a whole at a time when the stakes are high.

Personally, I find it easier to attain stable concentration with verses rather than pictures. We could say pictures are the counter-images of verbal concepts. If you are picturing something and then start trying to describe it with words, you may sense the picture weakens. On the other hand, if you are verbally saying a verse and then try to picture it, you may sense the words start to fade into more silence. I think many people will find it easier to start with verses or sounds like in the vowel exercise because that is more proximate to our normal thinking with the inner voice. Eventually we do want to think imagistically as well, but we should start from where we are and build up. For pictorial thinking, I try to do the exercises suggested by Cleric, such as vividly picturing my plans for the day instead of speaking it with the inner voice. Sometimes I use the Rose Cross in meditation or a few other ones suggested by Steiner.

As you say, we should always maintain the experiential connection of our first-person willed activity with the words, pictures, etc., supporting and maintaining the latter with our activity. In that sense, the content doesn't matter much and we can inflow Cosmic impulses which lead to genuine imaginations and inspirations regardless if we start with words-verses or pictures. Cleric compared this concentrated activity before to a waterfall:

Slowing down doesn’t mean to speak the words at greater intervals, like “I… think… these… words”. No, the sounds themselves have to be spoken in slow-motion, they have to be stretched in time. We shouldn’t try to encompass the whole sentence. As said, we should feel as somewhere along a theatrical play, fully engaged in the current act.

Then we continue to repeat the words more and more slowly. Finally we stretch them so much that they become like a very long single tone. For example, when we start with the “I” (aye), we basically hold ‘aaaaaaa’, without reaching ‘ye’. Then the sound should become softer and softer until we barely hear our thinking voice. It’s like softening our real voice until it becomes whispering and then even further until we only have the movement of our breath. So we have stretched our words to such an extent that we now live not in vibrating sound but only the smooth flow of our thinking-breath. Since this is now a laminar flow, we can basically say that we’re in a state of concentration. Concentration doesn’t mean freezing. Probably the best example is the waterfall. Its ‘concentrated’ image looks like a static column. Yet the water is constantly replenished. Similarly, when we stretch our words to such an extent, we remain with our laminar thinking-breath. Our thinking form is concentrated but we live in the intuition that we’re continually replenishing that form through time with our thinking-will. Thus our intuition that we’re thinking the words is still valid, except that the words’ vibrations have been stretched to laminar flow of thinking-breath. It’s very good if we succeed to feel this softening of the sound and attaining to that smooth and laminar thinking flow.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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Re: Intuition, thinking and Antroposophy

Post by Federica »

Güney27 wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:34 pm I'll try to give my understanding of cleric's essay CT as they may have more resonance on the forum than steiner's.
Ashvin's answer reminded me of the content of Cleric's essay

Güney - I wanted to share that, thanks to your post and interest in the CT essays, I decided to read them again and understand your questions the best I could, and I really have to thank you for the inspiration, because without it I wouldn’t have realized an inexplicable, but true fact. Indeed, I had completely overlooked TCOTCT 2 and 3. Last year I read the Central Topic, and also the beginning of TCOTCT 1. Then, for some odd reason, I forgot to continue!
So I have discovered the number 2 and 3 only over these last few days… Thank you :)


Cleric - if you are reading, I have said it before with regards to other essays: it’s amazing how you are able to maintain clarity without compromising on uncoiling any of the distinct threads of your illustration. I really feel that, if one has the intention to understand, it’s impossible to not make any progress with the help of these writings. Thank you! By the way, at the risk of sounding ridiculous, I want to say that I found that which is hidden in TCOTCT 3 :D if for no other reason, at least as pretext to spark new interest in this series of essays. I invite everyone who is reading here to go back and benefit from this precious resource and the crucial insights hiding in plain sight in this series:


The Central Topic: viewtopic.php?t=687

The Center of the Central Topic Part 1: viewtopic.php?t=723

The Center of the Central Topic Part 2: viewtopic.php?t=726

The Center of the Central Topic Part 3: viewtopic.php?t=730
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
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Re: Intuition, thinking and Antroposophy

Post by Güney27 »

all, we shouldn't expect to perfect the practice in any short timeframe, attaining spectacular results. Instead we should treat it like learning an instrument, where we will devote a small amount of time each day to studying the relevant material and accustoming our organism to a new skill, practicing whenever possible.,,

I could see in myself that I wanted to do the meditations in order to achieve success quickly and to get to know and understand the spiritual worlds.
This put a lot of pressure on me, which could possibly be a hindrance.
Instead, I'm doing things differently now.
I see my esoteric training as sacred, and when I meditate, it's like physical training for me (I'm a huge Mma fan myself and do the sport myself with devotion, that's why the word training, which is so often associated with physical training, very appropriate), in the sense that a single training session does not matter much, but consistency is what counts.
Rather, it is a path that you walk along, a process in which you are constantly evolving.

It is also important that I do not feel compelled to meditate as if it were a requirement.
I should feel a lot more free and do it to get to the realization of many significant soul processes.
Ideally, one even enjoys meditating.


,,Except, as mentioned before, we can also develop a sense for how this is no mere personal skill we are acquiring, but something which contributes to Earth evolution as a whole at a time when the stakes are high.,,


How do you mean that? In what sense do we contribute to overall evolution when we meditate?




For pictorial thinking, I try to do the exercises suggested by Cleric, such as vividly picturing my plans for the day instead of speaking it with the inner voice. Sometimes I use the Rose Cross in meditation or a few other ones suggested by Steiner.

I find it difficult to do this exercise because there are so many things that are difficult for me to put into pictures.
Is this exercise also about focusing one's spiritual activity, or does it have other promotional purposes?





"In that sense, the content doesn't matter much and we can inflow Cosmic impulses which lead to genuine imaginations and inspirations regardless if we start with words-verses or pictures"

I don't understand the meaning of your sentence here. What do you mean especially with Cosmic impulses?
To what extent do these impulses of meditation lead to imagination and inspiration?




I would still like to ask you ashvin,
How would you describe your current status and progress in your esoteric training?


Kind regards
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Re: Intuition, thinking and Antroposophy

Post by AshvinP »

Güney27 wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 5:39 pm all, we shouldn't expect to perfect the practice in any short timeframe, attaining spectacular results. Instead we should treat it like learning an instrument, where we will devote a small amount of time each day to studying the relevant material and accustoming our organism to a new skill, practicing whenever possible.,,

I could see in myself that I wanted to do the meditations in order to achieve success quickly and to get to know and understand the spiritual worlds.
This put a lot of pressure on me, which could possibly be a hindrance.
Instead, I'm doing things differently now.
I see my esoteric training as sacred, and when I meditate, it's like physical training for me (I'm a huge Mma fan myself and do the sport myself with devotion, that's why the word training, which is so often associated with physical training, very appropriate), in the sense that a single training session does not matter much, but consistency is what counts.
Rather, it is a path that you walk along, a process in which you are constantly evolving.

It is also important that I do not feel compelled to meditate as if it were a requirement.
I should feel a lot more free and do it to get to the realization of many significant soul processes.
Ideally, one even enjoys meditating.

That's a very good approach, Guney. Indeed we should not force ourselves to do anything we don't have at least some desire to do. On the other hand, there are clearly things we discern with our reasoning in the pursuit of Truth to be healthy for us even if they seem undesirable at first. We can think of many examples of that in life with respect to health and fitness, for ex., like physical training for sports. So if we have the desire the pursue Wisdom, Love, Truth wherever they leads us to their victory and completion, then we also find the courage and strength to endure that which seems uncomfortable or undesirable when we first encounter it, such as meditative exercises, but can be reborn as Divine peace and enjoyment. There are some things we only learn to enjoy once we have exposed ourselves to them enough and discovered the new degrees of freedom they have to offer.

Guney wrote:
,,Except, as mentioned before, we can also develop a sense for how this is no mere personal skill we are acquiring, but something which contributes to Earth evolution as a whole at a time when the stakes are high.,,

How do you mean that? In what sense do we contribute to overall evolution when we meditate?

We can survey the world around us and ask how much of what we see results from past thinking activity. Practically everything in our house falls in this category. If we live in a populated area, most things outside will also fall in this category. The cars, roads, signs, houses, buildings, etc. So we already see how influential human thinking activity has become on the outer landscape. Yet we also know most of these things will be gone in 100 years - the cultural landscape will look radically different and much of the natural landscape as well, given current trends in technology. 

But the blue sky, the Moon and Sun, the starry heavens, these will remain fixtures of the landscape for quite some longer time. We know these are also the outer manifestations of Thinking activity. Our normal thinking based only on mimicking sense perceptions can help build up our capacity, but all the ideal content will dissolve like our physical corpse when we die. It will be disassembled and used for its parts in the general spiritual economy, so to speak. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, but it does little to help counter the materialistic images which permeate our modern environment and, if left to their own devices, would seed a grotesquely materialistic-animalistic future. 

The Divine Thinking, however, is imbued with the creative power of archetypal feeling and will. Actually we can rightly say all we perceive around us in the sphere of Nature are the previous meditations of the Initiates and Gods, decohered by other trespassing influences. Of course the Gods weren't sitting in physical houses and rooms meditating on a physical mat, but the essential activity was the same. In our modern ennobled meditation, we aim to reach our thinking back up into this Cosmic sphere of creative ideational activity. Our imaginative thoughts become like our speech and our deeds, which weave objective threads through the world. We are then helping to seed the future Nature which we and other lower life waves will inhabit.

Owen Barfield also discussed this aspect in a more exoteric way:

Owen Barfield, Saving the Appearances wrote:Imagination is not, as some poets have thought, simply synonymous with good. It may be either good or evil. As long as art remained primarily mimetic, the evil which imagination could do was limited by nature. Again, as long as it was treated as an amusement, the evil which it could do was limited in scope. But in an age when the connection between imagination and figuration is beginning to be dimly realized, when the fact of the directionally creator relation is beginning to break through into consciousness, both the good and the evil latent in the working of imagination begin to appear unlimited. We have seen in the Romantic movement an instance of the way in which the making of images may react upon the collective representations. It is a fairly rudimentary instance, but even so it has already gone beyond the dreams and responses of a leisured few. The economic and social structure of Switzerland is noticeably affected by its tourist industry, and that is due only in part to increased facilities of travel. It is due not less to the condition that (whatever may be said about their ‘particles’) the mountains which twentieth-century man sees are not the mountains which eighteenth-century man saw.

It may be objected that this is a very small matter, and that it will be a long time before the imagination of man substantially alters those appearances of nature with which his figuration supplies him. But then I am taking the long view. Even so, we need not be too confident. Even if the pace of change remained the same, one who is really sensitive to (for example) the difference between the medieval collective representations and our own will be aware that, without traveling any greater distance than we have come since the fourteenth century, we could very well move forward into a chaotically empty or fantastically hideous world. But the pace of change has not remained the same. It has accelerated and is accelerating.

We should remember this, when appraising the aberrations of the formally representational arts. Of course, in so far as these are due to affectation, they are of no importance. But in so far as they are genuine, they are genuine because the artist has in some way or other experienced the world he represents. And in so far as they are appreciated, they are appreciated by those who are themselves willing to make a move towards seeing the world in that way, and, ultimately therefore, seeing that kind of world. We should remember this, when we see pictures of a dog with six legs emerging from a vegetable marrow or a woman with a motorbicycle substituted for her left breast.

There are many more explicit connections which can be drawn, which we will gradually unveil through meditative efforts and spiritual scientific investigation. There is really a battle being waged for the future of Earth, but the physical and conceptual battles we are familiar with are only dim outer manifestations of an ongoing inner struggle between the thought-forces of fragmentation and those of unification, those of animalization and those of spiritualization. Through modern meditation, we are recruited as foot soldiers in this battle. We truly have invisible allies who radiate our consciousness with wise instruction and insight - these are individualities who have already tread much further on the path of initiation and even the Gods themselves. That is what I mean when speaking of the inflow of 'Cosmic impulses' through our inverted spiritual activity. These are what we seek to attune to and attract with our concentrated activity.

Guney wrote:
"In that sense, the content doesn't matter much and we can inflow Cosmic impulses which lead to genuine imaginations and inspirations regardless if we start with words-verses or pictures"
I don't understand the meaning of your sentence here. What do you mean especially with Cosmic impulses?
To what extent do these impulses of meditation lead to imagination and inspiration?

I would still like to ask you ashvin,
How would you describe your current status and progress in your esoteric training?

So that leads to your other question - I am at foot soldier status, or perhaps only preparing in boot camp. Relative to the perspective of my old self with spiritual activity in the blind spot, it is a vast improvement, because that old self didn't even know a war was being waged and that it had the capacity to helpfully participate in it. Everything changes when we work through boot camp and prepare to graduate. We now have a clear ideal purpose ahead of us. We feel less rushed to accumulate all world knowledge and wisdom in a single lifetime. The spirit of renewal which flows through us, as individuals and collectives, is discerned as it brings new inspiring life to the imaginative forms of culture and nature. Our lives begin to resemble the great archetypal rhythms of humanity and Earth.

I will mention a small anecdote. The other day I was driving by my old office near DC. The street number is "7777" and written on the side of the building in big, bold red letters. I had never thought about it before, but suddenly it flashed into my consciousness. I was 28 when I moved into that office for the new firm I had started. That was really the time I started gaining a spiritual consciousness and I can now discern pretty clearly how many events since then led me to where I am now on the path of initiation. Steiner writes a lot about how this time period has generally been an important one for spiritual transformation in an individual's life as well as the collective life. For ex. the Mystery of Golgotha unfolded during the 4th of 7 epochs of our current civilizational cycle. These are not rigid rules and the timelines can vary depending on our circumstances, but I am just mentioning it as the sort of thing we begin discerning in our own lives. It is important to remember along the path that we are always halfway between what is known and what is unknown, and the latter will always arrive from unexpected and unsuspected directions. In that sense, we can only judge our 'progress' by where we ourselves were the year or month or day before, not by any external markers or comparisons to others.

Guney wrote:
For pictorial thinking, I try to do the exercises suggested by Cleric, such as vividly picturing my plans for the day instead of speaking it with the inner voice. Sometimes I use the Rose Cross in meditation or a few other ones suggested by Steiner.
I find it difficult to do this exercise because there are so many things that are difficult for me to put into pictures.
Is this exercise also about focusing one's spiritual activity, or does it have other promotional purposes?

The pictorial exercise is not really about concentration in the sense of quiet meditation, but just about loosening the rigid conceptual mask which constantly formats our imaginative activity through the inner voice. We can do it at any time during the day when we remember to do so and have a few moments. Remember, the higher ideational activity is always there animating our normal thinking. We are always utilizing imaginative thinking but normally only become conscious of its finished results through sense-perception and the inner conceptual voice. So this exercise helps us accustom our organism to entering consciously back into the flow of that fluid imaginative thinking.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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