Anthroposophy as Fascio

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Stranger
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Anthroposophy as Fascio

Post by Stranger »

AshvinP wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 11:54 pm Just to add a few thoughts on this issue of subjective (or man-made) vs. objective meaning. We could say what really makes the difference between perceived meaning which is 'subjective' and that which is 'objective' is the extent to which the perception of meaning is conditioned by our personalized opinions, interests, preferences, ideologies, etc. To the extent we can deidentify our thinking organism with those merely personal factors, our perception of meaning becomes more archetypal and 'objective'. Since most people aren't even aware that these personal factors influence their thinking perception, or how they influence it, which can only be illuminated through enlivening our thinking consciousness, they live in very subjective thoughts-perceptions. When they move rigorously through the World Content with logical reasoning, they temporarily lift from the subjective to the more objective perception of meaning. But when formulating beliefs and theories about the WC, the thinking snaps back to its subjective conditioning. The conceptual-perceptual spectrum is ordered so that it fits into a pre-packaged narrative which is desired, and everything which doesn't fit is ignored or marginalized in some way. The modern idealists/mystics also realized this limitation of modern thinking, but declared that, since they experience the WC subjectively, everyone else must as well and there's no way out. As Schopenhauer said, but failed himself to internalize, "every man mistakes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the World."

The personalized perspective which perceives the meaning of the WC in this way is itself objective content. If we can deepen our thinking consciousness into the forces which animate that perspective, through our shared soul-tendencies, then we are moving towards the archetypal. We gradually differentiate our core be-ing from that personal perspective, which is not to say we aim to abandon it, but rather to livingly understand how it arose and what role it serves in our spiritual evolution. Then we can participate in fulfilling the objective intentions for the personality - we spiral our personal intents into harmony with the Cosmic intents. We are tasked with bringing something truly new into the world, not through endless combining of the subjectivized content of our thinking, but through the new relationships we build between ourselves and the objective archetypal content we perceive in thinking, between ourselves and other beings. We can only fulfill this purpose of creating new relationships if we become increasingly self-aware of how that objective content manifests itself in our experience. And to do that we must sacrifice the personalized interests which condition our thinking perception. It's easier said than done, since we all start pursuing knowledge of reality exactly for personal comfort, pleasure, status, satisfaction in various ways, even if we often hide these motives from our surface consciousness.

That is why the various paths of modern initiation involve a purification of the personal soul-life. Federica shared a method from a Steiner to pursue this purification with regards to outer nature on the other thread. A phenomenology of thinking such as PoF is also a means of catharsis. It is sort of a two for one combo - through it we can purify the personal interests while also contemplating and experiencing the nature of our intimate spiritual activity. There are other methods oriented more towards the life of Feeling, which generally involve devotional practices and prayer. That was the approach of the medieval Christian mystics. The Rosicrucian initiation integrates the two approaches.
This is a good description of the PoF approach, which is a misnomer because it is essentially a philosophy of idealistic Fascio . The word "fascism" originates from Italian Fascio literally meaning "a bundle" or "a sheaf", and figuratively "league". The core view of every Fascio ideology is the primacy of objective and collective and rejection of everything subjective and individual. The individual freedom is only understood as a choice either to comply or not to comply with the collective. In case of Anthroposophy it is idolization of the objective ideational World Content and rejection of any ideational content related to subjective individuated spiritual activity. Fascio is rooted in the view that anything related to individuated activity is always and necessarily essentially egoic and therefore inferior with respect to the collective (=objective). The word "fascism" has a bad stigma associated with German Nazism, but in fact many social systems in the human history were essentially fascist to some degree, including religious states such as Byzantine Empire, almost every Islamic state, communist countries, most of the totalitarian regimes, etc. Many of them were and are relatively functional and are by far not as bad as the German Nazism.

Every Fascio ideology, anthroposophy included, has its good reasoning. Every human individual on Earth (with the exception of a very few souls) lives in a dualistic state of consciousness, which means that by far most of their subjective content indeed originates from the sense of separate self and its ego-complex and therefore is in fact mostly egoic. It is easily observed that usually secular liberal and humanistic views that give too much freedom for individuals and too much value to the individual and subjective often lead to hedonistic and egoic values, views, lifestyles and behavior and becomes a source of problems and conflicts on both individual and collective levels. In the realm of collective there is a polarity of two organizational systems and two systems of values that can be called Individualistic vs. Collective (or Liberal vs. Fascio ), both having their pros and cons. The dynamics of their opposition can be seen in human history of states and various social groups and their beliefs. This polarity and this dichotomy are inevitable in the realm of the dualistic state of consciousness.

The only way to resolve this dichotomy is to transcend the dualistic state. In the state of Oneness there is no opposition between individuated and collective spiritual activities and their ideational content, and instead, there is a full harmony of them. The individuated spiritual activity is not rooted in the egoic state of separate self, and therefore it is not based on any personal interests related to the individual self and disconnected from the interests of the collective. Any individuated spiritual activity and content is always in harmony with the collective, and any collective activity and content is always inharmony with individual. Such harmony does not hinder the freedom of the individuated spiritual activity. Consciousness continuously creates new ideational content through both collective and individual spiritual activities, where the results of the individual activity contributes to and becomes shared with the collective. Both collective and individual are equally valued and there is no more opposition and polarity between them.
Last edited by Stranger on Wed Mar 29, 2023 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anthroposophy as Fascio

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"As I understand the way we came to be here is that eons ago in linear time all the billions of souls who are here now got together and we essentially said: we want to do something that has never been done before, we want to make a unique contribution to the Godhead, what could that be? So, a lot of ideas were discussed and we came out with the idea of separation, we said "what would it be like if we experience ourselves as separate individuals, if we left the state of Oneness-Consciousness?" We knew that we cannot actually do that, it is not possible. But you can set up a simulated reality in which you can appear to be a separate individual. When we came up with this idea, as I understand it, those who were more highly evolved than us, those who love and guide us, said "we do not advise you to do this, we think it is not a good idea, it is going to create a lot of suffering", and there was a lot of discussion back and forth: should we or should not we, can we handle it or can't we? In the end those who love and guide us stuck to their positions and said "we don't advise you to do this", and we essentially said "we note it, but we've got this, we can do it and we are going to do it". Then we created separation, and in the instance separation was created, God or Source foresaw that we would all eventually change our minds because it is such a painful state to be in, and immediately put a plan in place to bring us home. The plan is ascension, the plan is purification. Ascension is redemptive in nature meaning it is bringing us back to Source, back to Oneness-Consciousness out of separation."

Robert Schwartz
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Cleric K
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Re: Anthroposophy as Fascio

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Stranger wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:48 pm In the state of Oneness there is no opposition between individuated and collective spiritual activities and their ideational content, and instead, there is a full harmony of them. The individuated spiritual activity is not rooted in the egoic state of separate self, and therefore it is not based on any personal interests related to the individual self and disconnected from the interests of the collective.
Eugene, the only reason you are able to speak like that is because you don't really bother to bring down this philosophy to the practical dimension. It sounds right when it is taken as a description of heavenly life after death but if you take it as something that has to be worked towards in our Earthly evolution, you'll very soon have to face the question of sacrifice.

If you take your own philosophy and try to present it to someone else you'll have to explain that life is not all about having our random whims satisfied. Depending on your listener, you'll soon be called a fascist yourself. The person will say "This sounds fishy. Why should I give up the things that I like and conform to some dubious Oneness?"

See, things are very very simple. As soon as someone feels their desires and interests to be threatened, they are immediately ready to call the other person a tyrant. Yes, it sounds very sweet to the ears to say "there is no opposition between individuated and collective spiritual activities and their ideational content, and instead, there is a full harmony of them". The only problem is that this would be true only after such a level of moral development is achieved. Before that many sacrifices need to be done in order to purify our personal conduct and make it harmonically attuned to the higher being.

So if you call Anthroposophy fascism, maybe you can be more specific about exactly which of your liberties you feel to be threatened? What is it that you want to keep doing, which you feel will be impossible to do through the Oneness as understood by Initiatic science? Before you accused spiritual science that there's not enough oneness in it. Now on the other hand there's too much oneness. So much so that it threatens your individual liberty.
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Re: Anthroposophy as Fascio

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Cleric K wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:07 pm Eugene, the only reason you are able to speak like that is because you don't really bother to bring down this philosophy to the practical dimension. It sounds right when it is taken as a description of heavenly life after death but if you take it as something that has to be worked towards in our Earthly evolution, you'll very soon have to face the question of sacrifice.

If you take your own philosophy and try to present it to someone else you'll have to explain that life is not all about having our random whims satisfied. Depending on your listener, you'll soon be called a fascist yourself. The person will say "This sounds fishy. Why should I give up the things that I like and conform to some dubious Oneness?"

See, things are very very simple. As soon as someone feels their desires and interests to be threatened, they are immediately ready to call the other person a tyrant. Yes, it sounds very sweet to the ears to say "there is no opposition between individuated and collective spiritual activities and their ideational content, and instead, there is a full harmony of them". The only problem is that this would be true only after such a level of moral development is achieved. Before that many sacrifices need to be done in order to purify our personal conduct and make it harmonically attuned to the higher being.

So if you call Anthroposophy fascism, maybe you can be more specific about exactly which of your liberties you feel to be threatened? What is it that you want to keep doing, which you feel will be impossible to do through the Oneness as understood by Initiatic science? Before you accused spiritual science that there's not enough oneness in it. Now on the other hand there's too much oneness. So much so that it threatens your individual liberty.
Cleric, I agree that in a way Oneness can also be viewed as a form of Fascio because it prioritizes the nondual state of realizing the one shared Essense vs. the dualistic state of individuated separate self. The state of Oneness is based on a fundamental sacrifice - the sacrifice of the individuated separate self with all its baggage of egoic desires, preferences, likes and dislikes etc. However, there is a difference here compared to the anthroposohic approach because Oneness does not preclude or devaluate the freedom of individuated spiritual activity. Such individuated but nondual spiritual activity is not driven by the egoic motivations of separate self anymore, but it becomes an individuated expression of creativity of One Consciousness. In this case there is no contradiction and opposition between shared and individuated ideal content as they remain in perfect harmony. Individual is only in opposition and in incoherence with collective when individual is in the dualistic state of separate self.

The anthroposophic approach is based on prioritizing the shared ideal content in which oneness is understood as oneness of the WC, and everything individuated that is not part of the shared WC is considered inferior and ought to be sacrificed. As a consequence, any individuated spiritual activity is rejected as long as it does not comply with already given shared WC. There is no room left for any kind of individuated freedom of creative spiritual activity because such spiritual activity is considered to be driven by egoic preferences (which is actually true but only for the dualistic state of consciousness).

The bottom line here is in the key difference between the nondual and anthroposophic approach in where the unity of Reality is found. In the anthroposophic approach the unity is found in the shared ideal world content, while in the nondual approach it is found in the unity of the fundamental existential essence of Consciousness. As a result, anthroposophy sees little or no value in realizing Oneness in the existential Essence of Reality, because it is considered that all redemption would be already achieved in reaching to the shared WC. Likewise, in nonduality the redemption is achieved in realizing the Oneness in the existential Essence, which does not preclude or devalue reaching to the shared ideal world content as well, but also gives room to the individuated ideal content because it is no longer based on the delusion of separate self with its egoic motivations that are incoherent with Oneness.
The only problem is that this would be true only after such a level of moral development is achieved. Before that many sacrifices need to be done in order to purify our personal conduct and make it harmonically attuned to the higher being.
I agree with that. We humans are in the transitional state, for most of us such "Oneness" sounds like a complete and irrelevant abstract utopia. The question is how do we realistically get from point A where we currently collectively are to point B of Oneness and then beyond? Anthroposophy offers a variant of such transitional path, and as such, I have nothing against it, as long as it is taken as a transitional path and not as a final destination. (And Oneness also should not be taken as final destination of spiritual evolution). It is indeed needed to develop higher cognition, attune to the higher being, sacrifice our egoic likes and dislikes, and reach to the shared ideal WC as part of our evolutionary development. And it is also true that, while going through the transitional period, there will be the dynamics of polarity between the egoic individual and shared collective (Liberal vs Fascio).

Also, to clarify, when I use term "Fascio", I do not mean to label it as necessary something bad, I simply mean a worldview or a system that values collective higher than individual. In human history there were bad instances of Fascio that turned into extreme forms of fascism, but in general it is not necessarily the case.
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Cleric K
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Re: Anthroposophy as Fascio

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Stranger wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:42 pm Cleric, I agree that in a way Oneness can also be viewed as a form of Fascio because it prioritizes the nondual state of realizing the one shared Essense vs. the dualistic state of individuated separate self. The state of Oneness is based on a fundamental sacrifice - the sacrifice of the individuated separate self with all its baggage of egoic desires, preferences, likes and dislikes etc. However, there is a difference here compared to the anthroposohic approach because Oneness does not preclude or devaluate the freedom of individuated spiritual activity. Such individuated but nondual spiritual activity is not driven by the egoic motivations of separate self anymore, but it becomes an individuated expression of creativity of One Consciousness. In this case there is no contradiction and opposition between shared and individuated ideal content as they remain in perfect harmony.

The anthroposophic approach is based on prioritizing the shared ideal content in which oneness is understood as oneness of the WC, and everything individuated that is not part of the shared WC is considered inferior and ought to be sacrificed. As a consequence, any individuated spiritual activity is rejected as long as it does not comply with already given shared WC. There is no room left for any kind of individuated freedom of creative spiritual activity because such spiritual activity is considered to be driven by egoic preferences (which is actually true but only for the dualistic state of consciousness).

The bottom line here is in the key difference between the nondual and anthroposophic approach in where the unity of Reality is found. In the anthroposophic approach the unity is found in the shared ideal world content, while in the nondual approach it is found in the unity of the fundamental existential essence of Consciousness. As a result, anthroposophy sees little or no value in realizing Oneness in the existential Essence of Reality, because it is considered that all redemption would be already achieved in reaching to the shared WC. Likewise, in nonduality the redemption is achieved in realizing the Oneness in the existential Essence, which does not preclude or devalue reaching to the shared ideal world content as well, but also gives room to the individuated ideal content because it is no longer based on the delusion of separate self with its egoic motivations that are incoherent with Oneness.
Yes, Eugene, I believe we all understand already the way you differentiate the two approaches. If I may put it into a simple picture we can say that in one case we're the son of the King and we realize our Oneness with him, his blood flows through us. From that point onwards we can exercise our royal will in any way we like as long as we don't violate the harmony of the Oneness. In the other case we also understand our royal ancestry but we include also the fact that the Cosmos is the living body of the King and our existence is modulated within it. Then, just as we have some basic responsibilities towards our personal bodily complex - if it is to be healthy and provide our spirit with the greatest freedom - so we have responsibilities towards the whole Kingdom. As we grow and evolve we gradually take more and more of the functions of our Father, just like a son of a businessman gradually takes hold of the business as he grows and learns more. It's natural that the son will first have to learn how the father runs the business and go along. Then when he begins to take over he may begin to make more creative decisions, open new branches, new product lines and so on.

So in the first view the Cosmos (the Kingdom) is only a tangential creation that we're free to engage with or not. We can choose to leave that Kingdom to other sons while we pursue other individual creative paths. The second view says that we must first take the time to understand how the Kingdom operates - which is all of reality and not only some isolated island or the dual underland - and then we'll see that there are plenty of opportunities for creative work. In fact it is entirely up to us to take upon this work, no one else will do it for us. There's work at each level and the work that has to be done by man can't be done by any other being. No one else has the hands to do that work.

That's why I asked you about some concrete example of something that you feel is oppressing you if you have to find your place in the Kingdom? Is it that you believe such a work will be too boring and uninteresting? That there's nothing to be learned from it or whatever can be learned has no relevance to your higher interests? Or you simply feel humiliated if you have to engage with an enterprise that is not entirely your own creation? So basically the first view says "Father, my salutations for the Cosmos that you have created but I have other plans. So I'll take what's mine from my royal heritage and explore other paths. Let my brothers and sisters take care of the Kingdom if that's what interests them." I have to stress once again that 'Kingdom' is not synonymous to the dual world. It includes the full Cosmos, the lower and the higher worlds.
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Re: Anthroposophy as Fascio

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Cleric K wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:26 pm From that point onwards we can exercise our royal will in any way we like as long as we don't violate the harmony of the Oneness. In the other case we also understand our royal ancestry but we include also the fact that the Cosmos is the living body of the King and our existence is modulated within it.
So in the first view the Cosmos (the Kingdom) is only a tangential creation that we're free to engage with or not. We can choose to leave that Kingdom to other sons while we pursue other individual creative paths. The second view says that we must first take the time to understand how the Kingdom operates - which is all of reality and not only some isolated island or the dual underland - and then we'll see that there are plenty of opportunities for creative work. In fact it is entirely up to us to take upon this work, no one else will do it for us. There's work at each level and the work that has to be done by man can't be done by any other being. No one else has the hands to do that work.
Right, so, as I said, “ Such individuated but nondual spiritual activity … becomes an individuated expression of creativity of One Consciousness. In this case there is no contradiction and opposition between shared and individuated ideal content as they remain in perfect harmony” The harmony means that the individual creative path is always to some extent modulated by the already given structure of the Cosmos. The Cosmos is never tangential to individual spiritual activity of Consciousness (as long as it is not shaped by the individualistic preferences of the separate self), because it is the same Consciousness that created the structure of the Cosmos and also continues its creative activity through its individuated spiritual activities. I guess we converge here to some common ground.
That's why I asked you about some concrete example of something that you feel is oppressing you if you have to find your place in the Kingdom? Is it that you believe such a work will be too boring and uninteresting? That there's nothing to be learned from it or whatever can be learned has no relevance to your higher interests? Or you simply feel humiliated if you have to engage with an enterprise that is not entirely your own creation? So basically the first view says "Father, my salutations for the Cosmos that you have created but I have other plans. So I'll take what's mine from my royal heritage and explore other paths. Let my brothers and sisters take care of the Kingdom if that's what interests them." I have to stress once again that 'Kingdom' is not synonymous to the dual world. It includes the full Cosmos, the lower and the higher worlds.
If “'Kingdom' is not synonymous to the dual world”, then this question becomes irrelevant, because I do see my role and place in the Kingdom and its further creative collective evolution, but only on its nondual levels.
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Re: Anthroposophy as Fascio

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For the record, the Anthroposophical view as well as my own, and as Cleric also expressed above, is as follows. It is not a view based on desire, preference, or abstract theories of the One and Many which appeal to our current personality, but living knowledge of the Cosmic organism in whom we live, move, have our being, and continuously seek to find our practical orientation.

12For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 14For in fact the body is not one member but many.

15If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 16And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 17If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19And if they were all one member, where would the body be?

20But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25that there should be no [h]schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

27Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.
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Re: Anthroposophy as Fascio

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27Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
Right, the question is what makes the body to be One - is it only its structure and relations between the parts (the World Content), or is it the very substance/essence of the body of which all parts are made together with its structure? Of course, there would be no functional body if there would only be a nondifferentiated unstructured soup of the homogeneous substance. But likewise, there would be no body if there would be only structural content. So, the body is inseparable oneness of its essence/substance and its structure where each member is an individuated spiritual activity of the same essence acting in accordance with the structure but at the same time expressing the fundamental freedom of the essence as being the conscious activity of the same free and creative Spirit.
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Re: Anthroposophy as Fascio

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Stranger wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:58 am
27Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
Right, the question is what makes the body to be One - is it only its structure (the World Content), or is it the very substance/essence of the body of which all parts are made together with its structure? Of course, there would be no functional body if there would only be a nondifferentiated soup of the homogeneous substance. But likewise, there would be no body if there would be only structural content. So, the body is inseparable oneness of its essence/substance and its structure where each member is an individuates spiritual activity of the same essence acting in accordance with the structure but at the same time expressing the fundamental freedom of the essence as being the conscious activity of the same free and creative Spirit.

There are infinite ways we can abstractly formulate it, and all would be equally valid. The real question is how can we livingly understand the way in which our individual streamline of becoming, in its practical orientation here on Earth, harmonically integrates with all other streamlines along the gradient from the most Earthly and fragmented to the most Cosmic and unified. Many illustrations and metaphors have been given by Cleric for this aim. They are all rooted in a spiritual scientific understanding and cannot be reduced to the horizontal planar battle of collectivism vs individualism or anything similar.

But anyway, for now, I am still eagerly anticipating an answer to Cleric's original question to you, which was clearly asking about you personally and for specifics.

maybe you can be more specific about exactly which of your liberties you feel to be threatened? What is it that you want to keep doing, which you feel will be impossible to do through the Oneness as understood by Initiatic science
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Re: Anthroposophy as Fascio

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AshvinP wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 2:10 am But anyway, for now, I am still eagerly anticipating an answer to Cleric's original question to you, which was clearly asking about you personally and for specifics.
maybe you can be more specific about exactly which of your liberties you feel to be threatened? What is it that you want to keep doing, which you feel will be impossible to do through the Oneness as understood by Initiatic science
I answered it here
If “'Kingdom' is not synonymous to the dual world”, then this question becomes irrelevant, because I do see my role and place in the Kingdom and its further creative collective evolution, but only on its nondual levels.
which means that the question is not about personal preferences or liberties, but about the ways of unfolding the freedom and creativity of the One Spirit through individuated spiritual activities.
"You are not a drop in the ocean, you are the ocean in a drop" Rumi
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