The meta-healing view of Gabor Maté

[AshvinP]

Aloha, Ashvin,

Certainly it's a process and sometimes a so-called "evil" behavior or experience brings an individual to profound spiritual evolution as has been reported as evidenced among some life-long prison inmates. Or, in the case of Maté, it is precisely the trauma he experience as a child that drove him to the wisdom of trauma that he discovered and is now sharing as an adult. I find it a joy to actually discover now, under the influence of dying, how often I was wrong in the past. Expanding awareness is truly a lovely blessing. One might even hope to continue to be "wrong" in one's interpretations. It's made me a happy camper.

And, I agree with what you say about reincarnation, which is why I say nothing about it. I'm not there yet.

And that's the real issue we are always pointing to here, Lou - the topic of reincarnation or Karmic laws isn't only a separate domain of knowledge we can acquire about reality, but an integral aspect of understanding everything which manifests in our current body-soul-spirit nature, including our understanding of who we are. So a view which speaks to the nature and sources of psychic trauma, along with proposed methods of dealing with it, without also accounting for the ongoing rhythms of incarnation, is mostly blind. It can stumble upon insights like a person bumping into objects in a dark house, but one object can easily get mixed up for another and most rooms and levels of the house can be left unexplored.

It's understandable why this holistic approach is so heavily resisted. If we can't reach definitive conclusions in one domain of experience without grasping the living currents which animate practically all other domains, then we don't know what to do with ourselves anymore. The mostly fragmented approach to knowledge is the only thing we have been doing as civilizations for hundreds of years now. That's what the modern intellect was adapted to do and what it does best. It's more convenient, easier, 'cleaner', and more immediately satisfying and gratifying. But with the holistic approach via strengthened spiritual activity, entirely new avenues of exploration are revealed to us and we find a higher satisfaction in resisting the definitive conclusions and simply experiencing the animating inflow of new cognitive currents.

Let me be certain that you understand that I do not resist the truth of reincarnation. I was only noting that I have memory gaps concerning my personal past lifetimes and for this reason I don't speak of them. I just like to hold my speculations to areas where I'm confident of the details of my personal direct experience.

I understand. I was speaking more to Mate and others in a similar position, although we all have this tendency to some extent or another and we shouldn't lose sight of that. Actually one of the reasons I found Peterson so inspiring to begin with is because he resisted such premature and sweeping conclusions about our be-ing yet still managed to provide much food for thought. He focused on the most proximate areas of our spiritual activity where we have intimate experience and freedom of action, hence the 'shut up and clean your room' approach. I haven't really been following him lately, though, and I know that the longer people keep the further deepening and enlivening of their own thinking in the blind spot, the greater the risk of stagnating and defaulting into conceptual abstractions about fundamental questions of existence.

[Lou Gold]

Ashvin,

Firstly, I like this emerging sense that we have moved toward feeling we are on similar pages with our different personal paths. I want to note it and say, "much appreciated."

Yes, Maté avoids the cosmic view and denies that he is any kind of a spiritual teacher. He sticks to more conventional science where evidence of multi-lifetime impacts are revealed solely in models of epigenetics and intergenerational trauma. You are correct that he does not address reincarnation. I believe my alignment with Maté is anchored similarly in our infantile separation from our mothers (mine occurring in my old-style c-section birth) and the resulting abandonment, anger and longing for motherly attachment. His pattern led him into family medicine, etc. Mine led me toward receiving a life-changing dream encounter with the Divine Mother and fitting well with the overarching Divine Mother canopy of the Santo Daime religion. I think Mate has been recently discovering this Feminine Force via forest-based shamanism both in Amazonia and in British Columbia. I would additionally suspect that the particulars of our journeys would be better predicted in the details of our past lifetimes and preparation for this one.

[Federica]

We could even say that all feeling of dissatisfaction in our incarnate life comes from the soul-spirit part of us not finding a physical-etheric instrument which can properly unfold all the capacities we have developed during previous incarnations. That mismatch always happens to some extent at our current stage and can happen for a number of different reasons, including available heredity streams into which we can incarnate and our own lack of willpower to shape the instruments in early years of life.

Ashvin,

I had in mind (clearly not as living knowledge, but still as logically consistent fact of evolution) that now - since the beginning of the XXth century - for the first time, the physical-etheric conditions have reached a point where it is finally possible to make the free decision to initiate the path of higher cognition, not only for a few Initiates but at a larger scale, and this is why the esoteric guidance is not anymore occult. How does this align with the mismatch you speak of?

[AshvinP]

We could even say that all feeling of dissatisfaction in our incarnate life comes from the soul-spirit part of us not finding a physical-etheric instrument which can properly unfold all the capacities we have developed during previous incarnations. That mismatch always happens to some extent at our current stage and can happen for a number of different reasons, including available heredity streams into which we can incarnate and our own lack of willpower to shape the instruments in early years of life.

Ashvin,

I had in mind (clearly not as living knowledge, but still as logically consistent fact of evolution) that now - since the beginning of the XXth century - for the first time, the physical-etheric conditions have reached a point where it is finally possible to make the free decision to initiate the path of higher cognition, not only for a few Initiates but at a larger scale, and this is why the esoteric guidance is not anymore occult. How does this align with the mismatch you speak of?

Federica,

Right, through the evolution of the intellectual and consciousness souls, we have reached the point where we are fully free in our thinking, insofar as we can equally direct our thinking towards the sensuous pleasures of the Earthly context, or towards the archetypal ideals of human existence. That is certainly connected with evolved modifications in our physical-etheric organism as well, which we should consider acts of grace at this time. However, with regards to the spiritual forces at work in our soul-life and bodily life, we are still dreaming and asleep respectively. Our normal thinking activity has not penetrated to those inner depths yet. Until we do, we are not really informed as to the relation between our soul-spirit capacities and the ability of our bodily instruments to bring those capacities to expression. For ex., we may have a great spiritual capacity for discerning the structured harmonies of music, but due to a physical disability such as an inner ear problem, or mental disability (usually rooted in an underdeveloped etheric organism), we cannot actually bring that capacity to expression in the creation of music. Then we live with a certain amount of dissatisfaction and suffering. The sources of such a mismatch reside in our Karmic inheritance from previous incarnations and also more trans-individual factors, like the impulses of collective destiny which guide us to incarnate at a certain time, place, in a certain heredity stream with relatively stabe physical qualities. 

The path of initiation is becoming more and more livingly aware of such relations so as to creatively and ethically work into our streams of destiny. Then our dissatisfaction and suffering from the mismatches, instead of breeding cynicism and resentment, becomes a positive factor which impels us towards compensation of Karmic imbalances through perfection of our WFT organism in a holistic way. We are imbued with the living sense that there is a definite and attainable Ideal to reach and we will reach it, as individuals and collectives, if we continue our faithful striving. So we see a deeper reason why the Kantian epistemic divide which manifests across all modern outlooks leads to nihilism. Here is an interesting example to consider.

Every combination of matter on the physical plane lacks an etheric body, but all that grows has an etheric body. If someone works artistically either in a visual or plastic way, this has an effect on the etheric body. An artistically formed piece of sculpture or a painting works directly on the etheric body. A virtue, on the other hand, works on the astral body. Many noble human beings who return from Devachan meet an etheric body which is in no way suited to their advanced astral body, because they have done nothing in the way of organised activity in the sphere of beauty. It therefore happens that many people who in their last incarnation lived very holy lives, but without concerning themselves with what is noble in the outer world of the senses, when approaching reincarnation experience a fear of re-birth, because they have not ennobled their etheric body through that beauty which is dependent on the senses.

This very frequently brings about an apprehension before incarnation and in an extreme case, rebirth as an idiot. When a person during his life as an idiot experiences all that is detrimental in his etheric body, this is balanced out in the following incarnation. Because the human being at the moment of incarnation, of birth, receives a shock if he has not ennobled his etheric body through allowing beauty which is dependent on the senses to work upon it, Freemasonry took beauty as its second principle. Wisdom, Beauty and Power or Strength are the three constructive forces; these have to be developed. Anyone possessing all three will in his next incarnation become a human being who fits harmoniously into his three bodies.

If we were to develop a complete harmony between our eternal soul-spirit and its bodily instruments, then this would practically mean immortality for the latter, i.e. continuity of consciousness. There would no longer be any unconscious liminal spaces of sleep and death-rebirth, where we depend mostly on higher spiritual beings to fashion a new corporeal existence. Rather we could cast off and adorn new bodily sheaths like we do with our clothing, in full consciousness. Clearly that is a remote ideal for most of us, yet through the strengthening of our free thinking activity we can begin making concrete progress. Most proximately we work on further ennobling the astral body, thereby transfiguring it into Manas (Spirit Self). What we are able to work on consciously during life will be attracted by our spirit seed on its descent into a new incarnation. For most of us, the physical and etheric bodies are given over to the Cosmos in their entirety after death (except a small extract of the etheric), but through the path of initiation we can gradually begin working on and immortalizing those too (which is not to suggest the physical will remain in its same dense form). 

[Lou Gold]

Federica,

This might evidenced lots of ways. In recent years Merlin Sheldrake wrote of Entangled Life underfoot and the Nobel in Physics was awarded more cosmically for Quantum Entanglement; Merlin's father Rupert Sheldrake offered a study establishing the existence of telepathy for dogs; Monica Gagliano finds audio perception and memory in plants and so forth. What was once seen only as esoteric becomes more aligned with what is or might be accepted as scientific. Perhaps paradigm shift occurs for all and in many directions as evolutionary processes bring the One and the Many toward greater alignment. I'm just speculating but it does seem possible.

[Federica]

Federica,

Right, through the evolution of the intellectual and consciousness souls, we have reached the point where we are fully free in our thinking, insofar as we can equally direct our thinking towards the sensuous pleasures of the Earthly context, or towards the archetypal ideals of human existence. That is certainly connected with evolved modifications in our physical-etheric organism as well, which we should consider acts of grace at this time. However, with regards to the spiritual forces at work in our soul-life and bodily life, we are still dreaming and asleep respectively. Our normal thinking activity has not penetrated to those inner depths yet. Until we do, we are not really informed as to the relation between our soul-spirit capacities and the ability of our bodily instruments to bring those capacities to expression. For ex., we may have a great spiritual capacity for discerning the structured harmonies of music, but due to a physical disability such as an inner ear problem, or mental disability (usually rooted in an underdeveloped etheric organism), we cannot actually bring that capacity to expression in the creation of music. Then we live with a certain amount of dissatisfaction and suffering. The sources of such a mismatch reside in our Karmic inheritance from previous incarnations and also more trans-individual factors, like the impulses of collective destiny which guide us to incarnate at a certain time, place, in a certain heredity stream with relatively stabe physical qualities. 

The path of initiation is becoming more and more livingly aware of such relations so as to creatively and ethically work into our streams of destiny. Then our dissatisfaction and suffering from the mismatches, instead of breeding cynicism and resentment, becomes a positive factor which impels us towards compensation of Karmic imbalances through perfection of our WFT organism in a holistic way. We are imbued with the living sense that there is a definite and attainable Ideal to reach and we will reach it, as individuals and collectives, if we continue our faithful striving. So we see a deeper reason why the Kantian epistemic divide which manifests across all modern outlooks leads to nihilism. Here is an interesting example to consider.

Every combination of matter on the physical plane lacks an etheric body, but all that grows has an etheric body. If someone works artistically either in a visual or plastic way, this has an effect on the etheric body. An artistically formed piece of sculpture or a painting works directly on the etheric body. A virtue, on the other hand, works on the astral body. Many noble human beings who return from Devachan meet an etheric body which is in no way suited to their advanced astral body, because they have done nothing in the way of organised activity in the sphere of beauty. It therefore happens that many people who in their last incarnation lived very holy lives, but without concerning themselves with what is noble in the outer world of the senses, when approaching reincarnation experience a fear of re-birth, because they have not ennobled their etheric body through that beauty which is dependent on the senses.

This very frequently brings about an apprehension before incarnation and in an extreme case, rebirth as an idiot. When a person during his life as an idiot experiences all that is detrimental in his etheric body, this is balanced out in the following incarnation. Because the human being at the moment of incarnation, of birth, receives a shock if he has not ennobled his etheric body through allowing beauty which is dependent on the senses to work upon it, Freemasonry took beauty as its second principle. Wisdom, Beauty and Power or Strength are the three constructive forces; these have to be developed. Anyone possessing all three will in his next incarnation become a human being who fits harmoniously into his three bodies.

If we were to develop a complete harmony between our eternal soul-spirit and its bodily instruments, then this would practically mean immortality for the latter, i.e. continuity of consciousness. There would no longer be any unconscious liminal spaces of sleep and death-rebirth, where we depend mostly on higher spiritual beings to fashion a new corporeal existence. Rather we could cast off and adorn new bodily sheaths like we do with our clothing, in full consciousness. Clearly that is a remote ideal for most of us, yet through the strengthening of our free thinking activity we can begin making concrete progress. Most proximately we work on further ennobling the astral body, thereby transfiguring it into Manas (Spirit Self). What we are able to work on consciously during life will be attracted by our spirit seed on its descent into a new incarnation. For most of us, the physical and etheric bodies are given over to the Cosmos in their entirety after death (except a small extract of the etheric), but through the path of initiation we can gradually begin working on and immortalizing those too (which is not to suggest the physical will remain in its same dense form). 

Thanks, Ashvin, this is helpful, it clarifies the confusion I had.

[Lou Gold]

If we were to develop a complete harmony between our eternal soul-spirit and its bodily instruments, then this would practically mean immortality for the latter, i.e. continuity of consciousness. There would no longer be any unconscious liminal spaces of sleep and death-rebirth, where we depend mostly on higher spiritual beings to fashion a new corporeal existence. Rather we could cast off and adorn new bodily sheaths like we do with our clothing, in full consciousness. Clearly that is a remote ideal for most of us, yet through the strengthening of our free thinking activity we can begin making concrete progress. Most proximately we work on further ennobling the astral body, thereby transfiguring it into Manas (Spirit Self). What we are able to work on consciously during life will be attracted by our spirit seed on its descent into a new incarnation. For most of us, the physical and etheric bodies are given over to the Cosmos in their entirety after death (except a small extract of the etheric), but through the path of initiation we can gradually begin working on and immortalizing those too (which is not to suggest the physical will remain in its same dense form). 

Ashvin,

Looking at the bolded text above, I'm wondering if you also consider the possibility of an expanded or expanding liminality of sleep and death/birth where we experience greater awareness and freedom of choice in the here-and-now and primarily return to help reduce suffering in a free choice fashion?

[AshvinP]

If we were to develop a complete harmony between our eternal soul-spirit and its bodily instruments, then this would practically mean immortality for the latter, i.e. continuity of consciousness. There would no longer be any unconscious liminal spaces of sleep and death-rebirth, where we depend mostly on higher spiritual beings to fashion a new corporeal existence. Rather we could cast off and adorn new bodily sheaths like we do with our clothing, in full consciousness. Clearly that is a remote ideal for most of us, yet through the strengthening of our free thinking activity we can begin making concrete progress. Most proximately we work on further ennobling the astral body, thereby transfiguring it into Manas (Spirit Self). What we are able to work on consciously during life will be attracted by our spirit seed on its descent into a new incarnation. For most of us, the physical and etheric bodies are given over to the Cosmos in their entirety after death (except a small extract of the etheric), but through the path of initiation we can gradually begin working on and immortalizing those too (which is not to suggest the physical will remain in its same dense form). 

Ashvin,

Looking at the bolded text above, I'm wondering if you also consider the possibility of an expanded or expanding liminality of sleep and death/birth where we experience greater awareness and freedom of choice in the here-and-now and primarily return to help reduce suffering in a free choice fashion?

Lou,

I'm not sure what the question is. We experience sleep and death-rebirth as dark liminal spaces because we don't have the strength of cognition to remain conscious when returning to spiritual existence independent of the body. Currently our normal thinking during Earthly life must use the bodily senses as support for its self-awareness. If, through the methodical strenghtening of our cognitive soul-life, we are able to gain greater self-awareness and therefore degrees of freedom in our spiritual activity, then the liminal spaces are no longer dark-unconscious but enlightened, luminous (in a cognitive sense). Of course this doesn't happen all at once, but in stages. First we awaken within the liminal dreaming space (imagination), then the liminal dreamless sleep space (inspiration), then the very deep sleep space (intuition). Does that make sense? As usual, we are not speaking of theories or models here, but inner realities which are known just as certainly as it is known the Sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening.

[Lou Gold]

If we were to develop a complete harmony between our eternal soul-spirit and its bodily instruments, then this would practically mean immortality for the latter, i.e. continuity of consciousness. There would no longer be any unconscious liminal spaces of sleep and death-rebirth, where we depend mostly on higher spiritual beings to fashion a new corporeal existence. Rather we could cast off and adorn new bodily sheaths like we do with our clothing, in full consciousness. Clearly that is a remote ideal for most of us, yet through the strengthening of our free thinking activity we can begin making concrete progress. Most proximately we work on further ennobling the astral body, thereby transfiguring it into Manas (Spirit Self). What we are able to work on consciously during life will be attracted by our spirit seed on its descent into a new incarnation. For most of us, the physical and etheric bodies are given over to the Cosmos in their entirety after death (except a small extract of the etheric), but through the path of initiation we can gradually begin working on and immortalizing those too (which is not to suggest the physical will remain in its same dense form). 

Ashvin,

Looking at the bolded text above, I'm wondering if you also consider the possibility of an expanded or expanding liminality of sleep and death/birth where we experience greater awareness and freedom of choice in the here-and-now and primarily return to help reduce suffering in a free choice fashion?

Lou,

I'm not sure what the question is. We experience sleep and death-rebirth as dark liminal spaces because we don't have the strength of cognition to remain conscious when returning to spiritual existence independent of the body. Currently our normal thinking during Earthly life must use the bodily senses as support for its self-awareness. If, through the methodical strenghtening of our cognitive soul-life, we are able to gain greater self-awareness and therefore degrees of freedom in our spiritual activity, then the liminal spaces are no longer dark-unconscious but enlightened, luminous (in a cognitive sense). Of course this doesn't happen all at once, but in stages. First we awaken within the liminal dreaming space (imagination), then the liminal dreamless sleep space (inspiration), then the very deep sleep space (intuition). Does that make sense? As usual, we are not speaking of theories or models here, but inner realities which are known just as certainly as it is known the Sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening.

Ashvin,

OK, I think I grok why we stumble over words:

Liminal means: occupying a position at, or on both sides of, a boundary or threshold.
"I was in the liminal space between past and present"

I agree, we are not speaking of theories or models here, but inner realities which are known just as certainly as it is known the Sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening.

My report is that, after 25 years of Santo Daime plus shamanic and nature initiations, my experience of active aware dying is loaded with expansive (rather than obfuscating) liminal experiences. And, yes, quite possibly I project my present point-of-view onto Maté, the Sheldrakes, Gagliano and others. But it's not limited to my reading of texts or listening to podcasts. This expansive liminal view is appearing in lots of quite mundane interactions. It results in me being able to say, hopefully without pride or exaggeration, "late stage dying is the most special time of my life." I offer this testimony before God in hope that it may be helpful to at least a few other beings and that unnecessary suffering may be reduced.

[AshvinP]

Ashvin,

Looking at the bolded text above, I'm wondering if you also consider the possibility of an expanded or expanding liminality of sleep and death/birth where we experience greater awareness and freedom of choice in the here-and-now and primarily return to help reduce suffering in a free choice fashion?

Lou,

I'm not sure what the question is. We experience sleep and death-rebirth as dark liminal spaces because we don't have the strength of cognition to remain conscious when returning to spiritual existence independent of the body. Currently our normal thinking during Earthly life must use the bodily senses as support for its self-awareness. If, through the methodical strenghtening of our cognitive soul-life, we are able to gain greater self-awareness and therefore degrees of freedom in our spiritual activity, then the liminal spaces are no longer dark-unconscious but enlightened, luminous (in a cognitive sense). Of course this doesn't happen all at once, but in stages. First we awaken within the liminal dreaming space (imagination), then the liminal dreamless sleep space (inspiration), then the very deep sleep space (intuition). Does that make sense? As usual, we are not speaking of theories or models here, but inner realities which are known just as certainly as it is known the Sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening.

Ashvin,

OK, I think I grok why we stumble over words:

Liminal means: occupying a position at, or on both sides of, a boundary or threshold.
"I was in the liminal space between past and present"

I agree, we are not speaking of theories or models here, but inner realities which are known just as certainly as it is known the Sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening.

My report is that, after 25 years of Santo Daime plus shamanic and nature initiations, my experience of active aware dying is loaded with expansive (rather than obfuscating) liminal experiences. And, yes, quite possibly I project my present point-of-view onto Maté, the Sheldrakes, Gagliano and others. But it's not limited to my reading of texts or listening to podcasts. This expansive liminal view is appearing in lots of quite mundane interactions. It results in me being able to say, hopefully without pride or exaggeration, "late stage dying is the most special time of my life." I offer this testimony before God in hope that it may be helpful to at least a few other beings and that unnecessary suffering may be reduced.

Well, one of many things I have learned from our extensive discussions with Eugene, which I suppose I already knew but not quite in the same way, is that any claimed knowledge of what exactly happens after our physical death is viewed with utmost suspicion in modern times across the board. (and I can certainly understand, because I have also looked at it this way). What I have mostly learned are the reasons why I used to and others still look it at that way. It is looked at that way even by, or especially by, mystics and psychonauts who are convinced there is life after death and we can communicate with beings across the threshold. Any claim that this can be done systematically, in a practically scientific way, is locked away in the cupboard by means of some rationalistic device or another. But none of what we are saying really makes sense unless we genuinely allow for this possibility in our minds and hearts.

So we are speaking of what is experienced after death (which is also experienced to some extent during sleep). I mentioned the life panoramic review, for ex., on another thread. This occurrence, which normally only happens after death when the etheric body has departed from the physical body, can be experienced before death via imaginative cognition. And with enlivened thinking, we can even attain utmost confidence in these realities before they are experienced to their full extent, when we are still viewing them mostly from the outside-in. But again, it has become more clear to me why this possibility is so resisted, no matter how much sense it makes. When we don't have certainty or near certainty about such realities, we can continue arguing and debating our preferred views. Once we have certainty, there is no more debating, only experiencing and doing. Then it is only a matter of how best to lay hold of our responsibilities and fulfill them.

Of course this assumes it is our high ideal to grow into the higher worlds in full consciousness. It is a great thing that we can doubt these realities at first, because that means we can pursue our ideals in complete freedom. If our ideas started with the same life as a hot flame or rhythmically pulsating music, then we would be compelled to take heed of them. Few if any people can listen to such music in a concert and stand stiff as a board, without swaying at least a little. Our thoughts had to die before we could attain the possibility of completely free decisions on how to react to them. Now the question becomes, how are we going to react? Are we going to keep them mummified or bring them into a new life which gives us certainty across the threshold of death? That is the question we all need to decide for ourselves.