The meta-healing view of Gabor Maté

[Lou Gold]

Lou,

I'm not sure what the question is. We experience sleep and death-rebirth as dark liminal spaces because we don't have the strength of cognition to remain conscious when returning to spiritual existence independent of the body. Currently our normal thinking during Earthly life must use the bodily senses as support for its self-awareness. If, through the methodical strenghtening of our cognitive soul-life, we are able to gain greater self-awareness and therefore degrees of freedom in our spiritual activity, then the liminal spaces are no longer dark-unconscious but enlightened, luminous (in a cognitive sense). Of course this doesn't happen all at once, but in stages. First we awaken within the liminal dreaming space (imagination), then the liminal dreamless sleep space (inspiration), then the very deep sleep space (intuition). Does that make sense? As usual, we are not speaking of theories or models here, but inner realities which are known just as certainly as it is known the Sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening.

Ashvin,

OK, I think I grok why we stumble over words:

Liminal means: occupying a position at, or on both sides of, a boundary or threshold.
"I was in the liminal space between past and present"

I agree, we are not speaking of theories or models here, but inner realities which are known just as certainly as it is known the Sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening.

My report is that, after 25 years of Santo Daime plus shamanic and nature initiations, my experience of active aware dying is loaded with expansive (rather than obfuscating) liminal experiences. And, yes, quite possibly I project my present point-of-view onto Maté, the Sheldrakes, Gagliano and others. But it's not limited to my reading of texts or listening to podcasts. This expansive liminal view is appearing in lots of quite mundane interactions. It results in me being able to say, hopefully without pride or exaggeration, "late stage dying is the most special time of my life." I offer this testimony before God in hope that it may be helpful to at least a few other beings and that unnecessary suffering may be reduced.

Well, one of many things I have learned from our extensive discussions with Eugene, which I suppose I already knew but not quite in the same way, is that any claimed knowledge of what exactly happens after our physical death is viewed with utmost suspicion in modern times across the board. (and I can certainly understand, because I have also looked at it this way). What I have mostly learned are the reasons why I used to and others still look it at that way. It is looked at that way even by, or especially by, mystics and psychonauts who are convinced there is life after death and we can communicate with beings across the threshold. Any claim that this can be done systematically, in a practically scientific way, is locked away in the cupboard by means of some rationalistic device or another. But none of what we are saying really makes sense unless we genuinely allow for this possibility in our minds and hearts.

So we are speaking of what is experienced after death (which is also experienced to some extent during sleep). I mentioned the life panoramic review, for ex., on another thread. This occurrence, which normally only happens after death when the etheric body has departed from the physical body, can be experienced before death via imaginative cognition. And with enlivened thinking, we can even attain utmost confidence in these realities before they are experienced to their full extent, when we are still viewing them mostly from the outside-in. But again, it has become more clear to me why this possibility is so resisted, no matter how much sense it makes. When we don't have certainty or near certainty about such realities, we can continue arguing and debating our preferred views. Once we have certainty, there is no more debating, only experiencing and doing. Then it is only a matter of how best to lay hold of our responsibilities and fulfill them.

Of course this assumes it is our high ideal to grow into the higher worlds in full consciousness. It is a great thing that we can doubt these realities at first, because that means we can pursue our ideals in complete freedom. If our ideas started with the same life as a hot flame or rhythmically pulsating music, then we would be compelled to take heed of them. Few if any people can listen to such music in a concert and stand stiff as a board, without swaying at least a little. Our thoughts had to die before we could attain the possibility of completely free decisions on how to react to them. Now the question becomes, how are we going to react? Are we going to keep them mummified or bring them into a new life which gives us certainty across the threshold of death? That is the question we all need to decide for ourselves.

Hmmm. It's hard for me to know what you are addressing. For clarification with regard to my comments I am definitely not trying to tell what it's like on the other side. I'm only saying that the liminal space of living/dying is offering me a greatly expanded view or enlarged 3rd third-person view, which offers more possibilities of connection in dreams and waking states. For me, this is a very special time.

[Lou Gold]

Lou,

I'm not sure what the question is. We experience sleep and death-rebirth as dark liminal spaces because we don't have the strength of cognition to remain conscious when returning to spiritual existence independent of the body. Currently our normal thinking during Earthly life must use the bodily senses as support for its self-awareness. If, through the methodical strenghtening of our cognitive soul-life, we are able to gain greater self-awareness and therefore degrees of freedom in our spiritual activity, then the liminal spaces are no longer dark-unconscious but enlightened, luminous (in a cognitive sense). Of course this doesn't happen all at once, but in stages. First we awaken within the liminal dreaming space (imagination), then the liminal dreamless sleep space (inspiration), then the very deep sleep space (intuition). Does that make sense? As usual, we are not speaking of theories or models here, but inner realities which are known just as certainly as it is known the Sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening.

Ashvin,

OK, I think I grok why we stumble over words:

Liminal means: occupying a position at, or on both sides of, a boundary or threshold.
"I was in the liminal space between past and present"

I agree, we are not speaking of theories or models here, but inner realities which are known just as certainly as it is known the Sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening.

My report is that, after 25 years of Santo Daime plus shamanic and nature initiations, my experience of active aware dying is loaded with expansive (rather than obfuscating) liminal experiences. And, yes, quite possibly I project my present point-of-view onto Maté, the Sheldrakes, Gagliano and others. But it's not limited to my reading of texts or listening to podcasts. This expansive liminal view is appearing in lots of quite mundane interactions. It results in me being able to say, hopefully without pride or exaggeration, "late stage dying is the most special time of my life." I offer this testimony before God in hope that it may be helpful to at least a few other beings and that unnecessary suffering may be reduced.

Well, one of many things I have learned from our extensive discussions with Eugene, which I suppose I already knew but not quite in the same way, is that any claimed knowledge of what exactly happens after our physical death is viewed with utmost suspicion in modern times across the board. (and I can certainly understand, because I have also looked at it this way). What I have mostly learned are the reasons why I used to and others still look it at that way. It is looked at that way even by, or especially by, mystics and psychonauts who are convinced there is life after death and we can communicate with beings across the threshold. Any claim that this can be done systematically, in a practically scientific way, is locked away in the cupboard by means of some rationalistic device or another. But none of what we are saying really makes sense unless we genuinely allow for this possibility in our minds and hearts.

So we are speaking of what is experienced after death (which is also experienced to some extent during sleep). I mentioned the life panoramic review, for ex., on another thread. This occurrence, which normally only happens after death when the etheric body has departed from the physical body, can be experienced before death via imaginative cognition. And with enlivened thinking, we can even attain utmost confidence in these realities before they are experienced to their full extent, when we are still viewing them mostly from the outside-in. But again, it has become more clear to me why this possibility is so resisted, no matter how much sense it makes. When we don't have certainty or near certainty about such realities, we can continue arguing and debating our preferred views. Once we have certainty, there is no more debating, only experiencing and doing. Then it is only a matter of how best to lay hold of our responsibilities and fulfill them.

Of course this assumes it is our high ideal to grow into the higher worlds in full consciousness. It is a great thing that we can doubt these realities at first, because that means we can pursue our ideals in complete freedom. If our ideas started with the same life as a hot flame or rhythmically pulsating music, then we would be compelled to take heed of them. Few if any people can listen to such music in a concert and stand stiff as a board, without swaying at least a little. Our thoughts had to die before we could attain the possibility of completely free decisions on how to react to them. Now the question becomes, how are we going to react? Are we going to keep them mummified or bring them into a new life which gives us certainty across the threshold of death? That is the question we all need to decide for ourselves.

Hmmm. It's hard for me to know what you are addressing. For clarification with regard to my comments I am definitely not trying to tell what it's like on the other side. I'm only saying that the liminal space of living/dying is offering me a greatly expanded view or enlarged 3rd third-person view, which offers more possibilities of connection in dreams and waking states. For me, this is a very special time.

[AshvinP]

Ashvin,

OK, I think I grok why we stumble over words:

Liminal means: occupying a position at, or on both sides of, a boundary or threshold.
"I was in the liminal space between past and present"

I agree, we are not speaking of theories or models here, but inner realities which are known just as certainly as it is known the Sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening.

My report is that, after 25 years of Santo Daime plus shamanic and nature initiations, my experience of active aware dying is loaded with expansive (rather than obfuscating) liminal experiences. And, yes, quite possibly I project my present point-of-view onto Maté, the Sheldrakes, Gagliano and others. But it's not limited to my reading of texts or listening to podcasts. This expansive liminal view is appearing in lots of quite mundane interactions. It results in me being able to say, hopefully without pride or exaggeration, "late stage dying is the most special time of my life." I offer this testimony before God in hope that it may be helpful to at least a few other beings and that unnecessary suffering may be reduced.

Well, one of many things I have learned from our extensive discussions with Eugene, which I suppose I already knew but not quite in the same way, is that any claimed knowledge of what exactly happens after our physical death is viewed with utmost suspicion in modern times across the board. (and I can certainly understand, because I have also looked at it this way). What I have mostly learned are the reasons why I used to and others still look it at that way. It is looked at that way even by, or especially by, mystics and psychonauts who are convinced there is life after death and we can communicate with beings across the threshold. Any claim that this can be done systematically, in a practically scientific way, is locked away in the cupboard by means of some rationalistic device or another. But none of what we are saying really makes sense unless we genuinely allow for this possibility in our minds and hearts.

So we are speaking of what is experienced after death (which is also experienced to some extent during sleep). I mentioned the life panoramic review, for ex., on another thread. This occurrence, which normally only happens after death when the etheric body has departed from the physical body, can be experienced before death via imaginative cognition. And with enlivened thinking, we can even attain utmost confidence in these realities before they are experienced to their full extent, when we are still viewing them mostly from the outside-in. But again, it has become more clear to me why this possibility is so resisted, no matter how much sense it makes. When we don't have certainty or near certainty about such realities, we can continue arguing and debating our preferred views. Once we have certainty, there is no more debating, only experiencing and doing. Then it is only a matter of how best to lay hold of our responsibilities and fulfill them.

Of course this assumes it is our high ideal to grow into the higher worlds in full consciousness. It is a great thing that we can doubt these realities at first, because that means we can pursue our ideals in complete freedom. If our ideas started with the same life as a hot flame or rhythmically pulsating music, then we would be compelled to take heed of them. Few if any people can listen to such music in a concert and stand stiff as a board, without swaying at least a little. Our thoughts had to die before we could attain the possibility of completely free decisions on how to react to them. Now the question becomes, how are we going to react? Are we going to keep them mummified or bring them into a new life which gives us certainty across the threshold of death? That is the question we all need to decide for ourselves.

Hmmm. It's hard for me to know what you are addressing. For clarification with regard to my comments I am definitely not trying to tell what it's like on the other side. I'm only saying that the liminal space of living/dying is offering me a greatly expanded view or enlarged 3rd third-person view, which offers more possibilities of connection in dreams and waking states. For me, this is a very special time.

Right, and we are pointing to the fact that we can know, with practical certainty, what it's like on the other side. Mostly we point broadly to the ways in which this possibility of knowledge across the threshold is logically coherent, immanent to our living experience, and radically transforms our understanding of who we are within the Cosmic-Earthly context and how our body-soul-spirit functions within this stream of becoming. Cleric has also provided many ways in which we take the initital steps on this path, if such living knowledge is our ideal.

The possibility of attaining this living knowledge we freely seek may not apply to our personal situation at any given time, but it is certainly relevant more broadly to other human souls. For ex., there are people on this forum who are 19 or 20 years old. Shouldn't we also be interested in what may be helpful to the unfolding of their latent spiritual capacities? There is also an increasingly nihilistic culture which surrounds us because it lacks this living knowledge across the threshold. Should we also think about what active inner measures help to redeem it? These are the things we are pointing to.

As you know, certain spiritual traditions have been around for many centuries and millennia, including those which involve ritual use of psychedelics, but we are still in the situation we are in, terribly cut-off from the spirit worlds. Since the end of the 19th century, however, spiritual impulses for new modes of connecting with those worlds have been flowing into human consciousness. They allow us to gradually transmute the sphere of Karmic necessity into that of Karmic freedom, by unfolding germinal capacities for higher consciousness. These have been thoroughly explored over the last 100 years, but are still mostly unknown, partly because of the resistant tendency mentioned in the last post. There is little sense in us feigning that knowledge across the threshold is still in flux - it could be this or it could be that. Instead we can accept the grace of certainty, sacrifice our speculative mindset, and become faithful students of the spirit worlds.

[Lou Gold]

Well, one of many things I have learned from our extensive discussions with Eugene, which I suppose I already knew but not quite in the same way, is that any claimed knowledge of what exactly happens after our physical death is viewed with utmost suspicion in modern times across the board. (and I can certainly understand, because I have also looked at it this way). What I have mostly learned are the reasons why I used to and others still look it at that way. It is looked at that way even by, or especially by, mystics and psychonauts who are convinced there is life after death and we can communicate with beings across the threshold. Any claim that this can be done systematically, in a practically scientific way, is locked away in the cupboard by means of some rationalistic device or another. But none of what we are saying really makes sense unless we genuinely allow for this possibility in our minds and hearts.

So we are speaking of what is experienced after death (which is also experienced to some extent during sleep). I mentioned the life panoramic review, for ex., on another thread. This occurrence, which normally only happens after death when the etheric body has departed from the physical body, can be experienced before death via imaginative cognition. And with enlivened thinking, we can even attain utmost confidence in these realities before they are experienced to their full extent, when we are still viewing them mostly from the outside-in. But again, it has become more clear to me why this possibility is so resisted, no matter how much sense it makes. When we don't have certainty or near certainty about such realities, we can continue arguing and debating our preferred views. Once we have certainty, there is no more debating, only experiencing and doing. Then it is only a matter of how best to lay hold of our responsibilities and fulfill them.

Of course this assumes it is our high ideal to grow into the higher worlds in full consciousness. It is a great thing that we can doubt these realities at first, because that means we can pursue our ideals in complete freedom. If our ideas started with the same life as a hot flame or rhythmically pulsating music, then we would be compelled to take heed of them. Few if any people can listen to such music in a concert and stand stiff as a board, without swaying at least a little. Our thoughts had to die before we could attain the possibility of completely free decisions on how to react to them. Now the question becomes, how are we going to react? Are we going to keep them mummified or bring them into a new life which gives us certainty across the threshold of death? That is the question we all need to decide for ourselves.

Hmmm. It's hard for me to know what you are addressing. For clarification with regard to my comments I am definitely not trying to tell what it's like on the other side. I'm only saying that the liminal space of living/dying is offering me a greatly expanded view or enlarged 3rd third-person view, which offers more possibilities of connection in dreams and waking states. For me, this is a very special time.

Right, and we are pointing to the fact that we can know, with practical certainty, what it's like on the other side. Mostly we point broadly to the ways in which this possibility of knowledge across the threshold is logically coherent, immanent to our living experience, and radically transforms our understanding of who we are within the Cosmic-Earthly context and how our body-soul-spirit functions within this stream of becoming. Cleric has also provided many ways in which we take the initital steps on this path, if such living knowledge is our ideal.

The possibility of attaining this living knowledge we freely seek may not apply to our personal situation at any given time, but it is certainly relevant more broadly to other human souls. For ex., there are people on this forum who are 19 or 20 years old. Shouldn't we also be interested in what may be helpful to the unfolding of their latent spiritual capacities? There is also an increasingly nihilistic culture which surrounds us because it lacks this living knowledge across the threshold. Should we also think about what active inner measures help to redeem it? These are the things we are pointing to.

As you know, certain spiritual traditions have been around for many centuries and millennia, including those which involve ritual use of psychedelics, but we are still in the situation we are in, terribly cut-off from the spirit worlds. Since the end of the 19th century, however, spiritual impulses for new modes of connecting with those worlds have been flowing into human consciousness. They allow us to gradually transmute the sphere of Karmic necessity into that of Karmic freedom, by unfolding germinal capacities for higher consciousness. These have been thoroughly explored over the last 100 years, but are still mostly unknown, partly because of the resistant tendency mentioned in the last post. There is little sense in us feigning that knowledge across the threshold is still in flux - it could be this or it could be that. Instead we can accept the grace of certainty, sacrifice our speculative mindset, and become faithful students of the spirit worlds.

[Lou Gold]

Well, one of many things I have learned from our extensive discussions with Eugene, which I suppose I already knew but not quite in the same way, is that any claimed knowledge of what exactly happens after our physical death is viewed with utmost suspicion in modern times across the board. (and I can certainly understand, because I have also looked at it this way). What I have mostly learned are the reasons why I used to and others still look it at that way. It is looked at that way even by, or especially by, mystics and psychonauts who are convinced there is life after death and we can communicate with beings across the threshold. Any claim that this can be done systematically, in a practically scientific way, is locked away in the cupboard by means of some rationalistic device or another. But none of what we are saying really makes sense unless we genuinely allow for this possibility in our minds and hearts.

So we are speaking of what is experienced after death (which is also experienced to some extent during sleep). I mentioned the life panoramic review, for ex., on another thread. This occurrence, which normally only happens after death when the etheric body has departed from the physical body, can be experienced before death via imaginative cognition. And with enlivened thinking, we can even attain utmost confidence in these realities before they are experienced to their full extent, when we are still viewing them mostly from the outside-in. But again, it has become more clear to me why this possibility is so resisted, no matter how much sense it makes. When we don't have certainty or near certainty about such realities, we can continue arguing and debating our preferred views. Once we have certainty, there is no more debating, only experiencing and doing. Then it is only a matter of how best to lay hold of our responsibilities and fulfill them.

Of course this assumes it is our high ideal to grow into the higher worlds in full consciousness. It is a great thing that we can doubt these realities at first, because that means we can pursue our ideals in complete freedom. If our ideas started with the same life as a hot flame or rhythmically pulsating music, then we would be compelled to take heed of them. Few if any people can listen to such music in a concert and stand stiff as a board, without swaying at least a little. Our thoughts had to die before we could attain the possibility of completely free decisions on how to react to them. Now the question becomes, how are we going to react? Are we going to keep them mummified or bring them into a new life which gives us certainty across the threshold of death? That is the question we all need to decide for ourselves.

Hmmm. It's hard for me to know what you are addressing. For clarification with regard to my comments I am definitely not trying to tell what it's like on the other side. I'm only saying that the liminal space of living/dying is offering me a greatly expanded view or enlarged 3rd third-person view, which offers more possibilities of connection in dreams and waking states. For me, this is a very special time.

Right, and we are pointing to the fact that we can know, with practical certainty, what it's like on the other side. Mostly we point broadly to the ways in which this possibility of knowledge across the threshold is logically coherent, immanent to our living experience, and radically transforms our understanding of who we are within the Cosmic-Earthly context and how our body-soul-spirit functions within this stream of becoming. Cleric has also provided many ways in which we take the initital steps on this path, if such living knowledge is our ideal.

The possibility of attaining this living knowledge we freely seek may not apply to our personal situation at any given time, but it is certainly relevant more broadly to other human souls. For ex., there are people on this forum who are 19 or 20 years old. Shouldn't we also be interested in what may be helpful to the unfolding of their latent spiritual capacities? There is also an increasingly nihilistic culture which surrounds us because it lacks this living knowledge across the threshold. Should we also think about what active inner measures help to redeem it? These are the things we are pointing to.

As you know, certain spiritual traditions have been around for many centuries and millennia, including those which involve ritual use of psychedelics, but we are still in the situation we are in, terribly cut-off from the spirit worlds. Since the end of the 19th century, however, spiritual impulses for new modes of connecting with those worlds have been flowing into human consciousness. They allow us to gradually transmute the sphere of Karmic necessity into that of Karmic freedom, by unfolding germinal capacities for higher consciousness. These have been thoroughly explored over the last 100 years, but are still mostly unknown, partly because of the resistant tendency mentioned in the last post. There is little sense in us feigning that knowledge across the threshold is still in flux - it could be this or it could be that. Instead we can accept the grace of certainty, sacrifice our speculative mindset, and become faithful students of the spirit worlds.

Yikes, Ashvin, I feel you are running the circle game. I am saying that the liminal space of living/dying that I am occupying and that my spiritual work has prepared me for is offering marvervelous insights and practical advice from both sides and I'm offering grateful testimony of my direct experience, which is, of course, not complete but surely certain. Why must we compare? Can't we just shine our particular light?

[AshvinP]

Hmmm. It's hard for me to know what you are addressing. For clarification with regard to my comments I am definitely not trying to tell what it's like on the other side. I'm only saying that the liminal space of living/dying is offering me a greatly expanded view or enlarged 3rd third-person view, which offers more possibilities of connection in dreams and waking states. For me, this is a very special time.

Right, and we are pointing to the fact that we can know, with practical certainty, what it's like on the other side. Mostly we point broadly to the ways in which this possibility of knowledge across the threshold is logically coherent, immanent to our living experience, and radically transforms our understanding of who we are within the Cosmic-Earthly context and how our body-soul-spirit functions within this stream of becoming. Cleric has also provided many ways in which we take the initital steps on this path, if such living knowledge is our ideal.

The possibility of attaining this living knowledge we freely seek may not apply to our personal situation at any given time, but it is certainly relevant more broadly to other human souls. For ex., there are people on this forum who are 19 or 20 years old. Shouldn't we also be interested in what may be helpful to the unfolding of their latent spiritual capacities? There is also an increasingly nihilistic culture which surrounds us because it lacks this living knowledge across the threshold. Should we also think about what active inner measures help to redeem it? These are the things we are pointing to.

As you know, certain spiritual traditions have been around for many centuries and millennia, including those which involve ritual use of psychedelics, but we are still in the situation we are in, terribly cut-off from the spirit worlds. Since the end of the 19th century, however, spiritual impulses for new modes of connecting with those worlds have been flowing into human consciousness. They allow us to gradually transmute the sphere of Karmic necessity into that of Karmic freedom, by unfolding germinal capacities for higher consciousness. These have been thoroughly explored over the last 100 years, but are still mostly unknown, partly because of the resistant tendency mentioned in the last post. There is little sense in us feigning that knowledge across the threshold is still in flux - it could be this or it could be that. Instead we can accept the grace of certainty, sacrifice our speculative mindset, and become faithful students of the spirit worlds.

Yikes, Ashvin, I feel you are running the circle game. I am saying that the liminal space of living/dying that I am occupying and that my spiritual work has prepared me for is offering marvervelous insights and practical advice from both sides and I'm offering grateful testimony of my direct experience, which is, of course, not complete but surely certain. Why must we compare? Can't we just shine our particular light?

That's fine, Lou. I'm really only interested in discussions which advance towards the truth of the situation across the threshold, as best we can approximate it with our current reasoning power. Or in discussions about how to enliven and strengthen our current reasoning power. If we are simply chatting to share personal experiences, feelings, and opinions of the threshold and the Divine, then that's not for me.

[Lou Gold]

Right, and we are pointing to the fact that we can know, with practical certainty, what it's like on the other side. Mostly we point broadly to the ways in which this possibility of knowledge across the threshold is logically coherent, immanent to our living experience, and radically transforms our understanding of who we are within the Cosmic-Earthly context and how our body-soul-spirit functions within this stream of becoming. Cleric has also provided many ways in which we take the initital steps on this path, if such living knowledge is our ideal.

The possibility of attaining this living knowledge we freely seek may not apply to our personal situation at any given time, but it is certainly relevant more broadly to other human souls. For ex., there are people on this forum who are 19 or 20 years old. Shouldn't we also be interested in what may be helpful to the unfolding of their latent spiritual capacities? There is also an increasingly nihilistic culture which surrounds us because it lacks this living knowledge across the threshold. Should we also think about what active inner measures help to redeem it? These are the things we are pointing to.

As you know, certain spiritual traditions have been around for many centuries and millennia, including those which involve ritual use of psychedelics, but we are still in the situation we are in, terribly cut-off from the spirit worlds. Since the end of the 19th century, however, spiritual impulses for new modes of connecting with those worlds have been flowing into human consciousness. They allow us to gradually transmute the sphere of Karmic necessity into that of Karmic freedom, by unfolding germinal capacities for higher consciousness. These have been thoroughly explored over the last 100 years, but are still mostly unknown, partly because of the resistant tendency mentioned in the last post. There is little sense in us feigning that knowledge across the threshold is still in flux - it could be this or it could be that. Instead we can accept the grace of certainty, sacrifice our speculative mindset, and become faithful students of the spirit worlds.

Yikes, Ashvin, I feel you are running the circle game. I am saying that the liminal space of living/dying that I am occupying and that my spiritual work has prepared me for is offering marvervelous insights and practical advice from both sides and I'm offering grateful testimony of my direct experience, which is, of course, not complete but surely certain. Why must we compare? Can't we just shine our particular light?

That's fine, Lou. I'm really only interested in discussions which advance towards the truth of the situation across the threshold, as best we can approximate it with our current reasoning power. Or in discussions about how to enliven and strengthen our current reasoning power. If we are simply chatting to share personal experiences, feelings, and opinions of the threshold and the Divine, then that's not for me.

I'm offering personal testimony of direct experience. I suspect those without similar experience will see little value and those with similar experiences will find some value. On a personal note, I came to this forum originally because I loved to argue. Over time as I lost energy I no longer wanted to argue. It was taking up too much inner space. I was even dreaming of answers I might offer at the forum. So I began to wean myself away from it, sort of clearing out and providing more inner emptiness. That space began to fill with more peace, more acceptance, more love, more happiness at a time of dying, which the dominant culture considers as negative and difficult. It seems of value to me to share my gratitude. I have no problem if you disagree. Be blessed in your way.

[Lou Gold]

Yikes, Ashvin, I feel you are running the circle game. I am saying that the liminal space of living/dying that I am occupying and that my spiritual work has prepared me for is offering marvervelous insights and practical advice from both sides and I'm offering grateful testimony of my direct experience, which is, of course, not complete but surely certain. Why must we compare? Can't we just shine our particular light?

That's fine, Lou. I'm really only interested in discussions which advance towards the truth of the situation across the threshold, as best we can approximate it with our current reasoning power. Or in discussions about how to enliven and strengthen our current reasoning power. If we are simply chatting to share personal experiences, feelings, and opinions of the threshold and the Divine, then that's not for me.

I'm offering personal testimony of direct experience. I suspect those without similar experience will see little value and those with similar experiences will find some value. On a personal note, I came to this forum originally because I loved to argue. Over time as I lost energy I no longer wanted to argue. It was taking up too much inner space. I was even dreaming of answers I might offer at the forum. So I began to wean myself away from it, sort of clearing out and providing more inner emptiness. That space began to fill with more peace, more acceptance, more love, more happiness at a time of dying, which the dominant culture considers as negative and difficult. It seems of value to me to share my gratitude. I have no problem if you disagree. Be blessed in your way.

More, in the spirit of testimony, regular Santo Daime practice is for me much more a matter of spiritual hygiene than a psychedelic purgatory or hallucinogenic joy ride, both of which are more rare. The good feelings are more ordinary and general results rather than like being in some special state., My ordinary feels somehow calmer, clearer and perhaps more evolved. I imagine that a long-term meditator or martial art or yoga practitioner might say the same.

[Federica]

More, in the spirit of testimony, regular Santo Daime practice is for me much more a matter of spiritual hygiene than a psychedelic purgatory or hallucinogenic joy ride, both of which are more rare. The good feelings are more ordinary and general results rather than like being in some special state., My ordinary feels somehow calmer, clearer and perhaps more evolved. I imagine that a long-term meditator or martial art or yoga practitioner might say the same.

Lou, I don't think anyone is imagining that you use psychedelics for "hallucinogenic joy rides" or similar. But how do you consider it a spiritual hygiene? I am struck by the use of this word, "hygiene", and also of the word "practice", as long as it is intended as spiritual practice. From my external viewpoint I would consider it a habit, or a social practice. What is it that you actively practice, inwardly, once you are under the effect of the substance?